Guest Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 Day 5: Obeying Guru and Not Eating Meat --------------------------------------- Yesterday we started talking about obeying Guru jee's instructions. Like a son can't please his parents merely by talking sweetly and touching their feet. To please them he needs to obey them as well. A Sikh will only do those things that will please his Guru jee. Yesterday we said, Bhai Lehna jee was ready to eat a corpse, the Beloved 5 Punj Pyare were ready to give their head to the Guru. The Guru's test is different from the world's tests, in the world you pass with just 40%, but in the Guru's school even 99% is a fail. A Sikh needs to obey the Guru's command 100%. Only the ones with this target will cross the terrible ocean of fear. Guru Amar Das jee's daughter Bibi Bhanee was married to Bhai Jetha jee. His other daughter Bibi Danee was married to Bhai Rana jee. Baba Mohan and Baba Mohri were his sons. The Son-in-laws Bhai Jetha jee and Bhai Rana jee were always serving the True Guru Guru Amar Das jee. Wereas the sons Baba Mohan and Baba Mohri had no interest in serving the Guru nor in going into the holy congregation. The sons of Guru Nanak Dev jee and of Guru Angad Dev jee failed the Guru's tests, and in the same way Guru Amar Das jee's sons failed as well. In the house of Guru Nanak, the Sikh needs 100 out of 100 marks to pass. When the test came to decide who was worthy of the Guru-ship, only the son-in-laws Bhai Jeha jee and Bhai Rana jee were considered suitable. Both were serving the Guru and the congregation all of the time. The Sikhs asked Guru Amar Das jee who would be given the Guru-ship. Guru Amar Das jee said, ``You'll have to wait a long time for the answer to this great question.'' Guru Amar Das jee called his son-in-laws and said, ``I'm getting old, its hard to supervise the service of the Sikhs. I need you to make me a platform were I can supervise from.'' The next day they both built a platform. Guru Amar Das Jee said, "Bhai Jetha jee, your platform isn't built correctly, Try again." Bhai Jetha put his palms together and humbly accepted the Guru's decision by saying "Sat Bachan - True Words." He knocked it down and tried again. Bhai Rana jee was also told his platform was incorrect and he roo started rebuilding. On the next day, Guru Amar Das jee inspected the platforms and told Bhai Jetha jee, ``Your platform is not as good as Bhai Rana jees.'' Once again he humbly accepted Guru jee's decision by saying, "Sat Bachan True Words." Then with his palms pressed together he begged Guru jee saying, "Guru jee, my wisdom is meagre, please put in my heart the idea of the platform you desire so I can make it.'' Guru Amar Das jee then told Bhai Rana jee, ``Your platform is worse than yesterday's. Try again.'' He replied, ``Guru jee it's better than yesterday's there's something wrong with your vision. I'll knock it down if you want, but I can't build any better than that.'' Bhai Rana spoke a lot of words, but words do not please Guru jee, actions do. On the third day, Guru Amar Das jee told Bhai Jetha jee to rebuild the platform once again. Bhai Jetha jee humble asked for Guru jee's blessings in the task by saying, ``Guru jee, my wisdom is meagre, place in my mind what you desire so I can make it.'' Bhai Rana jee was told his platform was still not good enough, but this time he refused to build another one. Guru Amar Das jee saw Bhai Jetha jee's fourth platform being made and told him that it was still not good enough. Guru Amar Das jee asked him, ``Bhai Jetha jee, how long will you carry on knocking it down and remaking it?'' Bhai Jetha jee said, ``O True Guru King, my aim is not to build and knock down the platform, my aim is be obey your command. If you tell me to do this for the rest of my life then that's how long I will do it!'' Now if we obey our Guru we are Sikhs and can be called Gurmukh, if we don't obey our Guru then we are called Manmukh. Agiaa bhaee akaal kee, tabeeo chalaaioo Panth Sabh Sikhan ko hukam haa, guru manioo granth Guru Granth jee maanio pargat gura kee dhay Jo prabh ko mil boch ha kojh shabd mel lay The Immortal Being issued the command and the Khalsa Path was created ALL Sikhs are commanded to obey the Granth as their Guru Obey Guru Granth for it is the now the body of the manifested Gurus Whoever longs for Waheguru, will unite by searching its Word (by Guru Gobind Singh jee) Everyday after ardas we sing this, but we leave the Guru's prescence without obeying it. Don't obey my words, obey Guru Granth Sahib jee. A GurSikh, or Guru's Sikh, possesses these 2 qualities:- ò obeys the True Guru and ò talks about the True Guru. If you leave the True Guru to listen to another Guru then you aren't a Sikh. Bhagat Kabeer jee's verses tell us not to eat meat or fish. Can anyone say that Bhagat Kabeer's jee's verses aren't the voice of Guru Granth Sahib jee? No. Every letter of Guru Granth Sahib jee is our Guru including the verses by the saints, or Bhagats. "Banee Guru, Guru ha Banee The Word is the Guru, The Guru is the Word." Some people say its OK to eat Chatka, or quickly killing an animal by chopping its head off. But the word Chatka doesn't even appear in Guru Granth Sahib jee. So Guru Granth Sahib jee has not said its OK to eat Chatka meat. People who consume drugs, fish, meat and alcohol are doing the wrong thing. ``Kabir says : Aggression and tyranny you call Halal, or lawful slaughter (Halal meat requires slow slaughter according to the Muslim rite). What will your state be when your reckoning is called for in God's court? Kabir says, Khichri (mixture of rice and lentils) is an excellent dish containing the nectar of salt. Who would subject his throat to be cut for flesh food ?'' (p 1374 Guru Granth Sahib Jee) `Kabir says, those that slaughter creatures by force and call it lawful meat (Halal meat requires slow slaughter according to the Muslim rite) what shall their state be when their reckoning is called? Kabir says, all violence is tyranny, for which God shall seek the answer. When their reckoning is presented they will be chastised.'' (p 1375 Guru Granth Sahib Jee) Guru Granth Sahib jee says consuming Halal and other meat is wrong, it doesn't say Chatka is OK. Bhagat Kabeer jee says that rice and lentils are better than killing animals. Our actions are important every day we sing in JapJee Sahib, `` Changee-aa-ee-a Buree-aa-ee-a Vachay dharam hadoor. Karmo apo apanee ke neray ke dhoor. God and Bad actions are judged by the Divine Judge. Our actions are our own, some are brought closer to god, others are go further away.'' Clothes get stained, in the same way eating meat stains our souls with blood of bad actions. Guru Arjan Dev jee told the holy Hindus ``You read the holy Vedas books and verses, but by killing creatures don't you feel shame?'' Bhagat Kabeer jee also says if the holy ones kill animals then who shall we call the unholy butchers? People quote Guru Nanak jee's words, ``We're born from flesh we live in flesh.'' Fair enough Guru jee says we're born from flesh but he doesn't say we should eat it! Guru jee does say that only fools argue about meat. So its important not to eat it and not to argue about it because we're surrounded by it. People eat grains and drink milk, then they say their body got weak and start to eat meat again. But, grains have been grown in healthy sunshine and water, then we put those healthy foods into us. What do pigs and chickens eat? Dirty food and rubbish goes into their flesh. Now are you going to tell me that Guru Gobind Singh jee would put those impurities into his pure body? Today is the age of science. The animals that eat meat and don't have different types of teeth. People say a vegetarian diet makes us weak. I say look at elephants they didn't get that big by eating eggs!! Horses won't eat meat, neither will a cow if it's placed in front of it, they've got more sense than humans. People say that Guru Gobind Singh jee ate meat. Would he put this dirt in his body. Don't we believe God was embodied in Guru Nanak Dev jee and that Guru Gobind Singh jee was his tenth form? All creatures are cherished by God's : "Jeea jant sagal pritparay. Saran paray Nanak Har Duarar All creatures are cherished by you, Nanak has entered the shelter of God's Door." If we believe God was embodied in Guru Gobind Singh jee then does the Master eat his creatures? Would the Guru that wants the best for everyone kill his creatures? The Creator doesn't kill his creatures he nurses and looks after them. People tell me that in some history books it says that its OK to eat meat. They say that Guru Amar Das jee's free kitchen, or langar, used to serve meat. Khalsa jee, Guru Granth Sahib jee is like the Sun, these history books are like light bulbs. Light bulbs can be changed, but not the Sun! Read Guru Granth Sahib jee to find out what was served in Guru Amar Das jee's free kitchen. The verse is by the musicians Satta and Balwand. ``Balwand says that Khivi, the Guru's wife, is a noble woman, who gives soothing, leafy shade to all. She distributes the bounty of the Guru's Langar; the kheer -- the rice pudding and ghee-butter, is like sweet ambrosia. The faces of the Guru's Sikhs are radiant and bright; the self-willed manmukhs are pale, like straw. The Master gave His approval, when Angad exerted Himself heroically. Such is the Husband of mother Khivi; He sustains the world. || 3 ||'' (p 967 Guru Granth Sahib jee) Satta and Balwand wrote about rice pudding and butter being served, they never mentioned that now and again chicken and Chatka meat was served too! Guru Ram Das jee says to the ones who chew tobacco, that its not like taking life but it is a bad habit. The ones who chew or smoke it will be taken by the angels of death. Drinking alcohol and smoking cigarettes are not murderous crimes, but they are bad habits. Guru jee says that death will come and take them. So, if all those bad habits cause them to be taken by death, then what do you think the punishment will be for the ones who take life? They'll have no place in god's Realm of Truth, or Sach Khand. Each person commits at least 13 unintentional sins a day. The one with no Guru has to suffer the karma, or consequences of these actions. But the one with a Guru doesn't. Now, what are those sins? In the air we breathe there are various forms of life, in the milk we drink and the yoghurt we eat there are various forms of life. The Guruless one will have to pay for killing these. But the Gursikh will not. Guru Granth Sahib jee says, "Nar achet pap te dar O man be afraid of committing even accidental sins." Be scared of committing an accidental sin. Every day we read "Ape beej apeh he kao we reap whatever we sow." A holy man was blind, for the last 100 lives he hadn't committed a single sin. He asked many Saints why he was blind as he hadn't committed any sins in the last 100 lives. One Saint told him to look even further back. He looked back 40 more lives- no sins, 40 more no sins, 100 more and still no sins. The Saint told him to look back just one more life. He saw that he was a human child, he had a locust in his hand. As a 12 year old boy he took a twig and poked out the eyes of the locust just for fun. We say "Nanak Nam Chardi Kala. Tere bnana sarbatt da bhalla Nanak says may the rising energy of Naam benefit everyone." When we say benefit everyone, we don't mean all Sikhs, nor all humans but for all creatures. Mercy is a quality greatly emphasised upon in Guru Granth Sahib jee. If a Saint doesn't have mercy then he's a butcher. Even one of the Bhagats was a butcher but his merciful nature meant that he changed jobs as soon as he could. If meat was OK to eat according to the Guru's, then meat would be served in the Gurdwara's free kitchen. And in the same way no-one should protest at taking Guru Granth sahib jee into a butcher's shop, should they? A butcher's shop is a butcher's shop, because it has killed animals there. Now, if it didn't have meat it wouldn't be a butcher's shop. I want to ask you, if their is a person's home which has meat in one room and Guru Granth Sahib jee in another then is that house no less then a butchers shop where you are keeping Guru Granth Sahib jee? Our Gurus didn't eat meat, they weren't butchers they were soft hearted and merciful. Guru Hargobind Sahib jee was very fond of flowers and had a garden. The young Har Rai jee was walking through the garden and his gown accidentally broke a flower's head. Guru Hargobind jee saw the scattered petals and asked a Sikh who broke the flower. He was told that his grandson Har Rai's gown broke it. Guru Hargobind jee summoned Har Rai jee instantly. Guru Hargobind jee said, ``Har Rai who broke the flower?'' He said, ``O Tru Guru King, I didn't mean to break it. My gown accidentally hit it.'' Guru Hargobind jee said, ``Do you wear a gown to hurt others? If you like wearing a gown then control the folds of the gown.'' From that day on he would hold the long gown over his right arm. When he became Guru Har Rai jee the Sikhs said you don't look good holding your gown, let it go as you are the Guru now. Guru Har Rai jee said, ``O Guru Nanak's Sikhs, all of my life I've held it like this because it was my Guru 's Command. If I disobey my Guru by letting go of it, I'll no longer be a Sikh. Do you want me to spend the rest of my life in hell!'' Have you ever thought what will happen if we don't obey our Guru's Command? Our Gurus didn't eat meat, they weren't butchers they were soft hearted and merciful. In Jap Jee Sahib, Guru Nanak Dev jee writes 'Dhaul Dharam Ka Pooth Religion is the son of Mercy." Without mercy we can't have religion. In Benteee Cahaupee Sahib, Guru Gobind Singh jee writes, "Chitee te kanchar asthoola , sabh par kirpa drist kar phoola - Chitee, the smallest of all insects, up to huge elephants have your look of mercy upon them." God is merciful to all creatures and gives to all creatures. Obey Guru Granth Sahib Jee 'Agia Bhaee Akal kee.' Don't get mislead by books on issues like meat. Obey Guru Granth Sahib ji Stay for ardas don't turn your back to the Guru wait until Guru jee goes to his position of peace - Sukh Asan. If the Guru's Sikh doesn't follow the Guru then how can he be called a Sikh? Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh ! Thankyou Sangat for reading again.....May Guru Jee bless us all. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amrikingh Posted April 25, 2003 Report Share Posted April 25, 2003 brillaint stuff man 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sevak Posted April 25, 2003 Report Share Posted April 25, 2003 good stuff plz keep posting it and we keep reading it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sevak Posted April 25, 2003 Report Share Posted April 25, 2003 I dont eat meat and I agree that in these days one should eeat meat considering the torcher done on animals. I eat eggs which i will stop probably becoz of cholestrol in them. but eating meat doesnt mean that you cant get to God. I mean some people get very attached to this issue .. in reality it is quite fruitless to discuss wether meat should be eaten by seekers or not, because there really is no answer it totally depends on the stage of the seeker and the situation. Someone might eat meat where there are no vegetables others might eat due to health reasons becoz they need a strong body. In all cases abuse of animals and taking animals for guaranted shouldnt be taken. at the end of the day lets not get attached to "meat" or "non-meat". That which creates also destroys and then creates again. Its all a play. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 25, 2003 Report Share Posted April 25, 2003 sevak - i understand what u are saying - but its not true u cannot get to god if u commit sins like eatin meat - to get to god u must have taken amrit - u must have followed ur rehat - u must have done a whole lifes worth of good deeds - the list is endless now u cannot be amrit dhari if u eat meat can u? look at the panj pyare - they were probably the most blessed people - to be the first people ever to take amrit - thats a huge thing - they had done some good things in their previous life - and they come back to this mortal life for one reason - and one reason only - and thats to take amrit fateh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sevak Posted April 25, 2003 Report Share Posted April 25, 2003 u cannot get to god if u commit sins like eatin meat - to get to god u must have taken amrit - u must have followed ur rehat - u must have done a whole lifes worth of good deeds - the list is endless now u cannot be amrit dhari if u eat meat can u? ************************************************************* In order to take amrit one must first make himself worthy and then one must be determined enough to follow the rehat and read the bani with full love. regarding eat of meat. What is sin and what is not sin? Sin really is in the mind. Banda Singh Bahadur was a vegetarian, bairagi.. but then inorder to break his attachment to this "meat" issue.. he ordered that the goat/sheep should be come. I agree that as long as there is cheese and milk there is no need to eat meat, but one need not goto extreme ends. For example warriors should eat meat because they have to fight. What is needed that animal rights shouldnt be abused. Everything must be done in balance. I am mainly a vegetarian because I can not see the bad treatment of animals here. I will even stop giving up eating eggs, because my conscience doesnt make me feel good about eating eggs. So as long as I have milk and cheese I probably wont eat meat, but if someone eats meat it doesnt mean that person cant get to God, that would be an incorrect assumption. In Africa they can not grow there vegetables, so they have to hunt and each time they kill they apologise to the animal , pray to there gods or whatever and they thank the animal for its flesh. In reality it is the mind that distinguishes between meat and non-meat. What is meat and what is non-meat to someone who is absorbed in God. You can put food in his mouth .. He wont know what you put in his mouth... but he will offer it to the God in his stomach. He wont think "I m eating". Well its alright. I use to be very stringent on not eating meat, but later I realized that the argument over eating meat or not-eating meat is fruitless and in the same way is the argument over eggs and not eggs. It totally falls down on the individual. This is also one type of attachment to dualism .."meat" and "non-meat" I agree one shouldnt eat meat.. but one should give up this type of attachment : "that meat is sin". In Anand Sahib, Guru Sahib describes how sastras and simritees keep distinguishing between good and bad , sin and clean.. but they are not able to recognise the truth. In the same way we are distinguishing between "meat" and "none-meat"... and we are not able to recognise the truth which is beyond these things. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 25, 2003 Report Share Posted April 25, 2003 yeh thats one point i forgot to mention - cos i had to go down n eat roti but sikhi is sympathetic to peoples wishes and situations - obviously for example if someone has some bodily deficiency and eatin meat will help then its understandable.... but eatin meat jus for ur tounges palet is not right this is the reason why shri guru nanak dev ji stated - "we should not argue what is meat and what is not - for in the air there are organisms.. in water there are... and in milk - so no one can ever be a 100% vegetarian"... fateh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sevak Posted April 25, 2003 Report Share Posted April 25, 2003 but eatin meat jus for ur tounges palet is not right that also applies to vegetarian food. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 25, 2003 Report Share Posted April 25, 2003 how? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sevak Posted April 25, 2003 Report Share Posted April 25, 2003 when we eat food we should not think "I am eating this food". When we satisfy our plate we think "I am enjoying it. Its nice and good." When we think this way it only adds to our own body and karma. We should give away everything to God. When we eat food : "I am eating it for God." It is not for the satisfaction of my tongue. It is just to satisfy the hunger in the stomach. I am not taking anythign for my ownself. Everything is yours. The food is you .. and the hunger that is consumed by it is also you. Anything we do we just do it for God. Seva in the Gurudwara, Eating food, drinking water. Whatever we take in .. just give it to God. If we give it to God. I just do it for God. When the desire to satisfy hunger is overcome by the desire to do bhakti to God.. then every morsel of food goes to God. anyways, this is a very high-state of devotion, so we need not stop enjoying delicious food and things like that.. it is okay, because Sikhism is a natural path. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 25, 2003 Report Share Posted April 25, 2003 fateh - i think u misunderstood what i said what i mean by "eating it just for the tounges palet is not right" is ........ when theres soooooo much food to eat - why eat meat - when u can have roti - why eat meat - when u can have daal sabji - why turn to meat - yes u have to satisfy ur hunger - u can satisfy it with 2 fulkey and sajbi - u dont have to eat bakra..... yes in circumstances where there is no food - no water - then i can see its acceptable - like sevak paji said - sikhi is not a strict religion like islam or christianity - allowences can be made for special circumstances fateh ji 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sevak Posted April 25, 2003 Report Share Posted April 25, 2003 actually in the current age.. it is wise to remain vegetarian.. someone who is kind willb e vegetarian, looking at the condition and the way animals are treated. i dont even drink milk.. i drink only organic milk or soy-milk. just goot this site and find out why : http://www.milksucks.com something that is produced by torchering animals.. i dont want it. milk is produced by cows by torchering them these days. by the way steel bangle, how old are you? your turban is nice heh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 25, 2003 Report Share Posted April 25, 2003 yeh i get wat u mean - u eat eggs.. so i guess those are organic ones too right? however - torture of animals - in whichever way - is not a fault of a buyer - to be honest i never even knew anything like that b4 i read that site :shock: :shock: agreed that the publics demand raises the stakes for farmers to produce more milk from their cows - and torture techniques might be applied... i dunno :? :? il have to have a look thru that site properly so if u go to the gurdwara - u dont drink chaa there either?.... cos they get their milk too from commerical shops - not fresh from a maaj :wink: :wink: it creates a VERY different outlook too - cos ghee is made from milk - in which do u also get organic butter??? im 21 sevak ... lol and as i mentioned earlier... that is not my picture... thats only a baby khalsa mere ta dhari aayi aah fateh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sevak Posted April 25, 2003 Report Share Posted April 25, 2003 actually , I dont drink tea. I didnt get into that habit. Yea, I eat ghee... but then there are certain thigns you cant help with.. so I just eat them in moderation anyways. actually it isnt the demand. It is just that businessmen want to produce mass amounts of milk in short time and quickly and that earns them more profit. Forexample if you put hormones to a cow it might produce 5 litres of milk a day instead of producing at it natural rate and if you keep your cow tied all day long 24 hours. keep feeding it hormones.. it keeps producing milk .. more and more milk in less time. They make the cow a milk-making machine ! which is not good and very unhealthy for the cow. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 25, 2003 Report Share Posted April 25, 2003 yeh i guess wat u say is right - nowadays theres some sort of animal extract in everything... whether it be rennet (cheese) - gelatine (sweets) and all sorts of next crap.... chal koi nee - roti deh fulkey n daal are enuff for me... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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