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Why did Guru Gobind Singh have more than one wife?


Harjinder

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sorry but this idea of 'ideal sikhs' is complete nonesense. why should anyone imitate Gurdas or Mani Singh? and who called them ideal. people just keep filling others sikhs minds with increasing amoount of bullshit.

regarding Gurdas funny how some admin opend a thread asking people who dont 'follow' him to provide historical proof- funny how since you are the one supporting him we would think the onus is on you. and then Balbir Singh started giving good arguements oh look thread was closed. lets get this straight, is anyone seriously entertaining the notion that Gurdas Vaaran is Gurbani? I hope not. Or that he is indespensable? This is the invention of others.

It was Guru Arjan Dev who called Bhai Gurdas Ji's varan as the "key" to Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

The thread was closed because Balbir Singh was repeating arguments he had used in an earlier thread. Check the archives.

K.

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Was Bhai manni Singh not a "good Gursikh example"?

Of course Singhs emulate, they always have?

Why do you think the concept of Dhadi Vaaran was introduced by 6th Paatshaahi? Why were Bir Rasi Indian epics translated in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib..

Why do we emulate the amrit sanchaar the Pany Pyare partook in...

Why do we emulate the kirtan done by the Rababis and Raagis...

Why do we emulate the correct pronounciation as preserved by the Taksaals...

Why do we aspire to emulate sacrifice, as taught to us by Guru Arjun Dev Ji, Guru Tegh Bahadur, 4 Sahibzadey, 40 Muktey and innumerable Sikhs thereafter...

Why do we emulate the compassion and selfless and indiscriminatory service taught to us by Bhai Ghanaiya...

Bhai Gurdas Jis vaaran are considered cannonical by the whole panth - who are you to fill Sikhs minds with manmati doubt?

Bhai Gurdas ki Vaaran cannot be 'Gurbani' for obvious reasons, but they are certainly sacred and more importantly 'Gurmat'.

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Mods, of course i will respect your protocol on referring to revered figures, however i have to say that i also think this habit of dressing names in epithets is a 'dirty habit' panjabis picked up past 150 years from Hindi/Urdu (modern lanuages). seems to me that in old panjabi refering to people directly wasnt considered 'rude'.

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i didnt say Mani Singh Ji wasnt a "good Gursikh example". whether he was a good Gursikh or not is not in question, what i am questioning is the 'example' part, as if we should idolise and imitate him (or to be more blunt the image someone else has created of him in their minds).

maybe you think Singhs/sikhs at learge 'emulate' but this is classic case of people projecting their own ideas on sikhi and proclaiming it sikhi. but why fill other peoples minds with this pyschological pollution and subtle egotistical 'pakhand'.

Dhadi Vaaran- are you sure it was 'introduced'. for all we know it was a tradition amongst Panjabis anyway. for all we know it Guru ji reviving old yet native arts been drowned out by fofeign influence. we can say that these things are inspirational- but that doesnt mean the intention is to copy them. Deep Singh Ji was astounding figure, so do you think you are Deep Singh Ji? Or are you trying to become Deep Singh Ji? why? Are you going to copy him? Why? And who was Deep Singh Ji emulating? Or was he just being himself?

I dont agree with your titling of 'bir ras' the compositions in Dasam Granth. This is so obviously modern interpretation in order to 'explain away' the Hindu myth. pure conjecture.

"Why do we emulate the amrit sanchaar the Pany Pyare partook in..." do we emulate THAT Amrit Sanchar? Uh obviously not. The ceremony specifics might be the same, but that is because it is a ceremony, it needs to be kept the same in order to transfer Shakipat/Gur Prasad, initiation. I am talking about people and their personalities.

"Why do we emulate the kirtan done by the Rababis and Raagis..."

"Why do we emulate the correct pronounciation as preserved by the Taksaals..."

Again Im talking about people, not knowledge.

"Why do we aspire to emulate sacrifice, as taught to us by Guru Arjun Dev Ji, Guru Tegh Bahadur, 4 Sahibzadey, 40 Muktey and innumerable Sikhs thereafter... "

urm, tell me in what way you are emulating these people, in this day and age?

"Why do we emulate the compassion and selfless and indiscriminatory service taught to us by Bhai Ghanaiya..."

Why do you need to emulate it? Who was he emulating? No offence but was he the only good person in history? Do we think that if we imitate some saintly personality we can win God's favour?

i doubt 'whole panth' have even heard of Bhai Gurdas vaaran. even if it is widely esteemed, this could be because of the ideological fashion and propaganda of 'sikh scholars' past 100 years. please explain why this text is so prized and yet many many sikhs wouldnt even be able to name something like Gur Sobha, Tankahnamma of differentiate between differant Janam Sakhis?

if anyone is filling sikh minds with 'manmatti' its your 'emulation culture', which is the product of your own thought patterns.

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M i have to say that i also think this habit of dressing names in epithets is a 'dirty habit' panjabis picked up past 150 years from Hindi/Urdu (modern lanuages). seems to me that in old panjabi refering to people directly wasnt considered 'rude'.

Do you call your dad by his first name? ;)

Our oldest literature refers to these great Gursikhs with the respect they deserve, and there is also the sakhi of Bhai Jhelun Ji to remind us of the importance of this.

Gurbani tells us to learn from Gursikhs who have attained high avasthas. Reading and learning is not 'emulating' - nobody can emulate what Sikhs like the ones mentioned have done, but we can learn from their lives.

On your other post: the Vaaran of Bhai Gurdas have been studied and taught amongst all our oldest Sampardas since they were written. They are mentioned in Suraj Parkash and other old texts, not to mention oral tradition.

Do you have any proof that 'whole panth' has not heard of them or that they were only made popular in the last 100 years? Also, please tell us what propaganda is contained within them.

There is no need to explain away the 'hindu myths' in Sri Dasam Granth - Guru Sahib uses very straightforward language to clear those up. The writings are bir-rassi, as is shown by their content and most clearly by the effect they have on you. Do a jaap of Chandi Di Vaar and then claim they are not bir-rassi.

Guru Rakha.

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"Again Im talking about people, not knowledge."

Peope are a product of their knowledge, or lack of, as you aptly demonstrate. To emulate a person, we put into practice (manifest) their knowledge, which is what they did themselves.

You have no idea what you are talking about sir, as a start, get an education as to the role of Dhadis and puratan texts attributed to Guru Gobind Singhs own court regarding the matter (do a search on this forum).

"if anyone is filling sikh minds with 'manmatti' its your 'emulation culture', which is the product of your own thought patterns."

Really try reading your last post. I am simply putting across a view 'based' on Sikh Ithihaas and Rvaaj.

You seem to be a relative newbie to Sikhi, am I right?

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matheen

"Do you call your dad by his first name?" is Gurdas Ji is your Dad?

or Do you call your Dad, 'Bhai Pita Ji Sahib Ji Maharaja Panth Rattan'? If so im sure he must be thrilled.

i didnt even bring in the word 'emulate'. when you say "Gurbani tells us to learn from Gursikhs who have attained high avasthas." i can only see this in for example talking advice from saints, keeping company of sadhs (in a religious sense). where is it telling you to worship anyones personality?

What oral tradition are they mentioned in? Suraj Prakash Granth dates from 1800s- you are only proving my point with this citation. Your sampardas couldnt even retain understanding of Gurbani Grammar or Raag formations or even keep a understanding of what the 'Ghar' word references.

Again you are calling them Bir Raas. So what about the narration of Krishna playing with the Gopis in Dasam Granth. are you going to call that Bir Rass? Ceratinly a very beautiful idea. But what makes you so sure about the effect they have on people? Someone has conditioned you to think they have a certain effect.

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Shaheediyan, i have notice that you cant argue with someone without trying to undermine their personality. is this because you dont believe your points have any weight to convince in themselves?

"Peope are a product of their knowledge..." what nonesense. so if i memorised a religious text that would make me a great Sage? What knowledge were Deep Singh ji or Ghaniya Ji operating on? I think it was tehir innate nature expressing itself. How can that be imitated? If anything it is Knowledge that makes people fake. a wolf in sheeps clothign isnt a sheep.

A saint could be existing on nothign but pure faith without any mental formations of inner morality code.

By making it into a principle you make it inhuman and empty.

if you have so much idea baout what you are talking about why dont you give us a summary, in place of telling us to go look it up. there are others reading this forum, why dont you educate us all? otherwsie its just a diversion technique.

I agree you are putting stuff up based on sikh 'rvaaj'.

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"Do you call your dad by his first name?" is Gurdas Ji is your Dad?

Why don't you call your dad/grandfather by their first names? It's a question of respect. Nobody has mentioned personality worship. Bhai Gurdas lived alongside Guru Ji and wrote what he learned in simple language, which is why his vaars fit in perfectly with Gurbani and were called the 'key' to Gurbani by Guru Arjan Sahib Ji.

What oral tradition are they mentioned in? Suraj Prakash Granth dates from 1800s- you are only proving my point with this citation. Your sampardas couldnt even retain understanding of Gurbani Grammar or Raag formations or even keep a understanding of what the 'Ghar' word references.

Nihang, Nirmala, Taksali and general Sikh oral tradition. Bhai Gurdas Ji is mentioned in the Janam Sakhis of Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji as well, and many other sources.

The puratan sampardas are the only ones who retained that knowledge, proof is that you can still learn it today, as it has been taught for centuries. Gurbani and its meanings are exactly what the Taksals teach! Please prove otherwise.

Again you are calling them Bir Raas............ But what makes you so sure about the effect they have on people? Someone has conditioned you to think they have a certain effect.

Obviously not every single verse or bani is the same. The comments about their effect are from personal experience, which is why I told you to try it for yourself. Do you know what bir-rass means?

As I said earlier, please prove that the Panth has not heard of Bhai Gurdas' vaaran and explain what propaganda they contain.

What parts of the Vaars do you disagree with and why are you so keen to marry multiple wives?

edit: a quick search of the internet shows you've been posting the same stuff on different websites for 2-3 years. Think what you could have done in all that time, lol.

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the reason you dotn call your father or grandfather by the first name is because theya re your father and grandfather. it was a stupid comparison. you were just trying to undermine me.

where did you get these janamsakhis of Guru Hagobind from? And are you saying that these sampardas have retained the knwoledge that i am referring to- grammar, 'ghar'? because my research suggest otherwise.

"Gurbani and its meanings are exactly what the Taksals teach! Please prove otherwise."

again if you are making the claim it is for you to prove. you bring the evidence. this seems a strange claim anyway. hey if you want to follow them im not discouraging you.

"Obviously not every single verse or bani is the same. The comments about their effect are from personal experience, which is why I told you to try it for yourself. Do you know what bir-rass means?"

so now you are taking a u-turn? so is your or shaheediyan's of some taksaals 'personal experince' the standard for everyone else ot absorb? when he mentions bir raas i assume he is talking about instililng warrior spirit/inspiration.

I did not say Gurdas Ji's Vaars contain propagnda i said that sikh propagandists have been pushing them. you go talk to any panth that hasnt entertained kathaks and tell me if they have heard of Gurdas Ji. The fact is that certain people/schools are pushing that Gurdas Ji's vaars are indispensable. Wheres the evidence?

You people are making the claims, therefore you prove to me that Guru Arjun Dev said they are 'key to Gurbani'.

i am not attacking Gurdas ji's vars at all and i am not discouraging anyone from reading them. I am questioning the status that people are pushing regarding them. How are they being considered as 'key to Gurbani' 'an explanation of Gurbani' etc

oh so you thought you would google my username and try and 'dig up some dirt'. i can assure you that i havent been fixated on Gurdas ji at all. please show me this 'same stuff' that i've been posting for '2-3 years'. i was posting on sikhnet on and off for that time, then later Tapoban, on a variety of topics. if i have mentioned this before its because it seemed so obvious to me from the start.

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Oral tradition of various sampradas agrees that Bhai Gurdass ji's Vaaran are the keys to understanding Gurbani. There is no evidence that goes against this. Therefore, if you disagree with this, than the onus is upon you to prove that they are not.

The maryada for Amrit Sanchar is also passed down orally. The high degree of similarity between Amrit Sanchar maryadas from different sampradas proves that oral tradition can be reliable and valid. The fact that different sampradas agree on the position of Bhai Gurdass ji's Vaaran further emphasize the reliability of oral tradition wrt the Vaars.

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the reason that there is "no evidence against this" is because it is not a fact but your own faith in them and what they teach. you have no evidence to prove that Guru Arjan Dev said they are 'key to Gurbani' other than faith in what these peopl have told you. if that is enough for you so be it, nothing wrong with that for you, but dont expect other people who dont follow these groups to have to accept to what they say.

it seems obvious to me that it is being 'pushed' upon us a part of some cannon. theres no evidence for us that texts like this and Nand Lal ji are 'cannonical' because tehre is no sign they were approved by any of the Gurus. therefore why would we accept anything to be put 'beside' Guru Granth at all in terms of status or importance?

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also Amrit Sanchar exists without the sampradas and their teachings but not vice versa. the same centrality cannot be applied to Gurdas ji's vaars in these sampradas. therefore i do not think this comparison is fitting.

The comparison is indeed fitting as it has nothing to do with centrality. Rather it is an example of the reliability of oral tradition.

You have not managed to raise a single point against Bhai Gurdass ji's Vaars being key to understanding Gurbani so far.

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as i have said, they couldnt even keep basic understanding of Guru Granth Itself, so now they are telling us that these Vaars are key? so you see if they dont have fundamental knoweldge themselves, then their authority is already undermined. they probably influence each other.

no Amrit Sanchar=no sampardes even. whereas if they dont have Gurdas Vaars are you saying they will fall apart? No offence was Gurdaas Ji the only person is history to teach about Gurbani? If so they might aswell all merge into the 'Gurdas Ji samparda', if they are all based on his lectures.

there's nothign in Gurdas Vaars that anyone 'needs' in order to understand Gurbani. so its not necessary, much less an authority. so wheres the 'key'?

Gurdaas wasnt enlightened himself, and theres no evidence his writting was parvaan (approved by Gurus). so forpeople to quote his words side by side with Gurbani as if they also have authority seems inappropriate.

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End of the day - both Bhai Gurdas Jis Vaaran and Kabbit Svaye along with Bhai Nand Lal jis ghazals are accepted by all sampyrada and factions of the panth as being 'Gurmat'. Along with Dasam Bani, they are allowed to be recited and sung in all Gurdwarai in the world in Sri Guru Granth Sahibs hazuri, as has always been done.

The small matter of 'key' is irrelevant - at the end of the day they are considered Gurmat (according to) - and are used by kathakaars all over the world as a complimentary tool in understanding bani and providing further perspectives/examples/comparisons/exegesis. As an example, we learn from the vaaran/kabitts what the gurmantar is and what constitutes a Gursikh in more depth. We also learn about the Sikh view of other philosophies.

Bhai Gurdas Ji was clearly Gurbanis 1st theologian and offical scribe of Gur-Shabd - looking at history, we see that both Bhai Gurdas Ji and Baba Budda Ji were both highly respected Gursikhs of the Panth, if they were not enlightened, i'm not sure which Sikh was... scribes of Gurbani have always been the gems of the panth i.e. Bhai Gurdas Ji, Bhai Manni Singh Ji, Baba Deep Singh J - it is no coincidence that they were both scribes as well as widely being acknowledged as Brahmgianis.

If you don't feel like giving high regard to Bhai Gurdas Jis vaaran like the rest of the panth, good luck to you, your opinion is wasted here.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Why did Guru Gobind Singh have more than one wife? How many marriages did Guru Gobind Singh have?

The wrong impression that the Guru had more than one wife was created by those writers who were ignorant of Punjabi culture. Later authors accepted those writings indicating more than one marriage of the Guru and presented it as a royal act. During those days kings, chiefs, and other important people usually had more than one wife as a symbol of their being great and superior to the common man. Guru Gobind Singh, being a true king, was justified in their eyes to have had more than one wife. This is actually incorrect.

In Punjab, there are two and sometimes three big functions connected with marriage, i.e., engagement, wedding, and Muklawa. Big gatherings and singings are held at all these three functions. In many cases, the engagement was held as soon as the person had passed the infant

stage. Even today engagements at 8 to 12 years of age are not uncommon in some interior parts

of India. The wedding is performed a couple of years after the engagement. After the wedding, it

takes another couple of years for the bride to move in with her in laws and live there. This is called Muklawa. A dowry and other gifts to the bride are usually given at this time of this ceremony to help her to establish a new home. Now, the wedding and Muklawa are performed

on the same day and only when the partners are adults.

A big befitting function and other joyful activities were held at Anand Pur, according to custom, at the time of the engagement of the Guru. The bride, Mata Jeeto Ji, resided at Lahore, which was the capital of the Mughal rulers who were not on good terms with the Gurus. When the time for the marriage ceremony came, it was not considered desirable for the Guru to go to Lahore, along with the armed Sikhs in large numbers. Furthermore, it would involve a lot of traveling and huge expenses, in addition to the inconvenience to the Sangat, younger and old, who wished to witness the marriage of the Guru. Therefore, as mentioned in the Sikh chronicles, Lahore was ‘brought’ to Anand Pur Sahib for the marriage instead of the Guru going to Lahore. A scenic place a couple of miles to the north of Anand Pur was developed into a nice camp for the marriage. This place was named Guru Ka Lahore. Today, people are going to Anand Pur visit this place as well. The bride was brought to this place by her parents and the marriage was

celebrated with a very huge gathering attending the ceremony.

The two elaborate functions, one at the time of engagement and the other at the time of the marriage of the Guru, gave the outside observers the impression of two marriages. They had reason to assume this because a second name was also there, i.e., Mata Sundari Ji. After the marriage, there is a custom in the Panjab of giving a new affectionate name to the bride by her inlaws. Mata Jeeto Ji, because of her fine features and good looks, was named Sundari (beautiful) by the Guru’s mother. The two names and two functions gave a basis for outsiders to believe that the Guru had two wives. In fact, the Guru had one wife with two names as explained above.

Some historians even say that Guru Gobind Singh had a third wife, Mata Sahib Kaur. In

1699, the Guru asked her to put patasas (puffed sugar) in the water for preparing Amrit when he

founded the Khalsa Panth. Whereas Guru Gobind Singh is recognized as the spiritual father of

the Khalsa, Mata Sahib Kaur is recognized as the spiritual mother of the Khalsa.

People not conversant with the Amrit ceremony mistakenly assume that Mata Sahib Kaur was the wife of Guru Gobind Singh. As Guru Gobind Singh is the spiritual but not the biological father of the Khalsa, Mata Sahib Devan is the spiritual mother of the Khalsa, Mata Sahib Devan is the spiritual mother of the Khalsa but not the wife of Guru Gobind Singh.

From ignorance of Punjabi culture and the Amrit ceremony, some writers mistook these three names of the women in the life of Guru Gobind Singh as the names of his three wives. Another reason for this misunderstanding is that the parents of Mata Sahib Devan, as some Sikh chronicles have mentioned, had decided to marry her to Guru Gobind Singh. When the proposal

was brought for discussion to Anandpur, the Guru had already been married. Therefore, the

Guru said that he could not have another wife since he was already married. The dilemma before

the parents of the girl was that, the proposal having become public, no Sikh would be willing to

marry her. The Guru agreed for her to stay at Anand Pur but without accepting her as his wife.

The question arose, as most women desire to have children, how could she have one without

being married. The Guru told, “She will be the “mother” of a great son who will live forever and be known all over the world.” The people understood the hidden meaning of his statement only after the Guru associated Mata Sahib Devan with preparing Amrit by bringing patasas. It is, therefore, out of ignorance that some writers consider Mata Sahib Devan as the worldly wife of Guru Gobind Singh.

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There is no bigger proof than Gurbani. Gurbani says:

ਘਰ ਕੀ ਨਾਰਿ ਤਿਆਗੈ ਅੰਧਾ ॥ ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ਸਿਉ ਘਾਲੈ ਧੰਧਾ ॥ {ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ, ਪੰਨਾ ੧੧੬੫}

Ghar Kee Naar Teaagai Andhaa || Par Naaree Seo Ghaalai Dhandhaa ||

A morally blind person leaves his wife and looks to indulge with other women.

Bhai Gurdas says:

ਏਕਾ ਨਾਰੀ ਜਤੀ ਹੋਇ ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ਧੀ ਭੈਣ ਵਖਾਣੈ ॥ {ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ, ਵਾਰ ੬, ਪਉੜੀ ੮}

Aikaa Naaree Jatee Hoaye Par Naaree Dhee Bhaien Vakhanai ||

Adhere to your own wife only. Consider other women as daughters and sisters.

I will take answer of Gurbani over itehaas mitheaas written by mortals.

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Bhai Gurdas says:

ਏਕਾ ਨਾਰੀ ਜਤੀ ਹੋਇ ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ਧੀ ਭੈਣ ਵਖਾਣੈ ॥ {ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ, ਵਾਰ ੬, ਪਉੜੀ ੮}

Aikaa Naaree Jatee Hoaye Par Naaree Dhee Bhaien Vakhanai ||

Adhere to your own wife only. Consider other women as daughters and sisters.

How come you are quoting from vaars of Bhai Gurdas ji. Your cult do not believe in these vaars either.

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Isn't it funny how they use the same lasso they try and catch ignorant jantha with and then tie it around their own neck!

Not surprising, as they quote 'Bipran ki reet' (note how that favourite line has now gone silent) and they don't even know where its from!

I am sure that after their amazing research on Dasm Bani, they will soon start quoting from the same source they are discrediting!

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I read a Persian account from the mid 1700s which referred to Guru Gobind Singh's 2 wives. One was mentioned as a kanvari doli. So he seems to have had 2 wives but did not have physical relations with one.

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