Why did Guru Gobind Singh have more than one wife?

[BabbarSher]

This topic so far seems to be classic evidence of the problem the panth is suffering from at the moment (hence the rise of people like Kala Afghana); modern Sikhs' bottom-up thinking; 'I don't agree with this, therefore Guruji definately never did it'!

Firstly jt Singh...if you dont know the facts, dont slander anyone. Like you say below, dont be emotional. Provide evidence that Kaal Afghaana is a bad person.

Slandering anyone without prooof is not like the sikh way.

Is it because he has sytematically proved the two wife theory of Guru Gobind Singh Ji wrong ??

please, posters, try not to simply discuss issues at an emotional level...at least try to find some evidence first.

refs used for the below:

Kahn Singh Nabha's 'Mahan Kosh'

Giani Ishar Singh Nara's 'Safarnama te Zafarnama'

Dr. Ganda Singh 'Hukamnamae'

Parvinder Kaur 'Kar Sewa: Historical Gurdwaras'

1) Kahn Singh Nabha (a Singh Sabhia) has three entries, for each of Guru Gobind Singh ji's wives.

2) There is historical evidence for each wife's existence such as a smadhi for Mata Jeeto, now called Gurdwara Agampur at Sri Anandpur Sahib (she is recorded to have died while Guruji was there). She was cremated by Guru ji himself.

Who made these Samadhis. Please give proof that Guru Ji cremated her himself

3) Mata Sundri was the mother of Baba Ajit Singh ji. The haveli where she lived and died in Delhi is recorded in Mahan Kosh is now Gurdwara Mata Sundri ji in Delhi.

4) According to the 'Kar Sewa' and 'Hukamname' texts, both Mata Sahib Kaur and Mata Sundri issued hukamname to the Khalsa after Guruji from the haveli in Delhi.

many of the Hukamname's themselves are suspect of being forged and hence they cannot be relied upon

5) Nabha's kosh records Mata Sundri as being the mother of three of the Sahibzaday, Baba Jujhar Singh ji, Baba Fateh Singh ji and Baba Joravar Singh ji.

6) Mata Sahib Kaur's samadhi is near Sri Guru Harkirshan's.

Proof please. Who made the Samadhi

7) I think the author of the much copied and pasted article that started this dicussion has shown great ignorance himself by declaring that Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha and Giani Ishar Singh Nara are ignorant of Punjabi cultural practices!

Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha's writings, provide us a very good insight into sikhi, however they are not above Gurmat. He even mentions the GurBilaas Patshahi Chevin and gives various definations of sikhs - Kharagdhari etc. etc. Shall we start beliveing in GurBilaas

He wrote the Granth a long time after the Gurus and hence it is susceptible to mistakes.

I can refer to Kala Afghaan's writings wherein he has proven the marriage aspect of Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

Weird how things pop up.

1st it was Guru Gobind Singh Ji's 2 wives, then Guru Hargobind Sahib's 3 wives !!! and then someone had the audacity to say Guru HarRai Ji's 8 wives .....!!!!! ?? Are you guys crazy or what ? Wah Bahi Wah Sikho .....Tusin taan din B Din sayane hunde jaa rahe ho. ....

[Guest Javanmard]

Do not insult ANYONE without posting reliable sources. Petty insults will not be tolerated and will result in automatic deletion of your posts from now on.

[tSingh]

Babbasher, there seems no point in replying to your post as you have already made your mind up and I have made mine. I think you should certainly question following the opinions of a tankhaiyya.

I shall answer your most pertinent question...who made the samaadh of Guru ji's wife? Well I'd imagine it was the Khalsa Panth a long long time ago, no doubt before any texts had been written on the matter.

Closer to the time of the Guru than Afghana, closer than Nabha. Therefore going by your own quote, the panth must have been less prone to mistakes because...in your own words;

'He wrote the Granth a long time after the Gurus and hence it is susceptible to mistakes'

Piara Singh Padam, an actual scholar vastly more important and trustworthy than Afghana states mothers of sahibzaday are both Mata Jito and Mata Sundri in 'Gobind Sagar'.

No doubt Afghana would argue that a van full of brahmins in their lovely little dhotis were there building the samadh themselves back in the early 1700s, brainwashing the Khalsa Panth and Sikh scholars eversince.

[Beast]

Guru ji didnt marry more than once. That is just history crapy and false writings. Neither did Guru ji hunt, ate meat or anything. If u dont beleive go ask the Real Gursikhs

Have u ever tried stand up comedy?

[Guest]

So if polygamy is acceptable is Sikhism, is polyandry too? Or is this a cultural thing, Im confused.

[Guest Javanmard]

Polyandry is mentioned in gurbani through the example of Draupadi the virtuous wife of the Pandava brothers. She is saved by Krishna due to her devotion. Polyandry is still practiced by some Jatts today and has been for sure in the past. It is probably a surviving element of matriarchal culture in Panjab. THough seen as exceptional it was not regarded as sinful at all. Most often it was due to economical reasons: many brothers with little land marry one woman so that the family property stay within the family.

[Pheena]

Polygamy maybe practised in an area where there is low male population.Or because a man may want more than one wife to have many children.It may well be a cultural tradition for a particular culture.

:arrow: Leela."Khel khel, akhel kelan, ant ko phir ek" - Jaap Sahib

One who is free from the hooks of Maya, can play in Maya how ever they (Vahiguru) wishes.

Why do people want to not believe in historical facts about the Satguru??

Whats up with you people?You are like those God-damned "Christians" and "Muslims," wanting to ignore things which may seem out of the ordinary in this modern day.

Then that answers the question, regardless if guru sahib had 3 or 7 wives, it was all leela of khuda. Who is one to question...the question arise from those who dont' have faith in the guru being the light of parmatma. They think how can a man of god have more than one wife, was he full of kaam to want more than one wife. Now their mind has been trying to find loop holes to fullfill its own desires thru having more than one wife.

It is his Leela, he plays it how he sees fit.

[BabbarSher]

Lalleshvari: Do not insult ANYONE without posting reliable sources. Petty insults will not be tolerated and will result in automatic deletion of your posts from now on................Who is this addressed to ??

Lalleshvari: "Polyandry is mentioned in gurbani through the example of Draupadi the virtuous wife of the Pandava brothers. She is saved by Krishna due to her devotion. Polyandry is still practiced by some Jatts today and has been for sure in the past. It is probably a surviving element of matriarchal culture in Panjab. THough seen as exceptional it was not regarded as sinful at all. Most often it was due to economical reasons: many brothers with little land marry one woman so that the family property stay within the family."

Its the mention of a myth NOT Polyandry...and what does it denote......and whats the lesson ..... ??? Lets talk about Gursikhs practices not Jatts !!!

In Gurbaani even myth of Ganika is mentioned as well as Ajamal.as well as various other myths....This indictaes nothing abouth the practices of the characters.....but only preaches love for God

JtSingh:

You answer my most 'pertinent' question by 'imagining'. This goes a long way in prooving ur point..doesnt it.

You really need to answer Why Kala Afghaana is a bad person? How many of his books have you read and what are the points against him? (I am not saying he is 100% correct..but then that holds true for anyone).

Who has made him a Tankhaiya....and what was the basis of making him a atankhayiya. People who worship idols go scot free and someone won understands Gurbaani is Tankhahiya ? Great ?

What do you say about people who admire GurBilaas patshahi Chevin and are its editors......Well these are the very people who announced Kala Afghaana tankhayiya..

You quoted various modern scholars:

I would just like to quote two:

Bhai Vir singh Ji's explanation of the two marriages.

Bhai Gurdas Ji's baani : eko nari jati hoe par-nari dhi bhain vakhanai --Bhai Gurdas

Can you please compare these two eminent Gursikh's with the scholarly works of Piara Singh Padam and the like.

Now would the Gurus violate their own principles ?

The ten Gurus are models for us to follow. They would never violate their own principles.

What is your stand on the marriages of Guru Hargobind Sahib and Guru Har Rai Ji ? What are the sources for these marriages?

Weird that the other 7 Gurus did not marry twice, but the three did.......

Someone above said...Polygamy is allowed, if male population is more....then i think we ought to legalise polyandry in punjab as the sex ratio is skewed..there are less gals than boys...

Pheena: I dont know the point your are trying to highlight...about leela...

Akal Sahai

Babbar Sher

[jjj]

So can we not trust history anymore? Who are we to EVEN question what Guroo jee did??

Gursikhs know there Guru. Like son knows about father and his habits. Historians only know Guru from evidences, sculptures and other books which can be wrong.

[jjj]

So can we not trust history anymore? Who are we to EVEN question what Guroo jee did??

Gursikhs know there Guru. Like son knows about father and his habits. Historians only know Guru from evidences, sculptures and other books which can be wrong.

All the Gursikhs/Sants I met completely denied Guru ji ever ate meat with 100% confidence and here are historians with there website with Guru ji hunting and eating meat... and making new history. I trust the Gursikhs who are joined with the Guru.

[Guest]

eko nari jati hoe par-nari dhi bhain vakhanai --Bhai Gurdas

Well that clears it all up I think. Excellent post BabberSher, thanks. Good point about the Jatts, we should talk about Sikhs, not Jatts here.

[Guest Maha_Pavitar]

I also trust ONLY Gursikhs..they are the only family we have after all..I'm not saying Guroo jee did certain things or he didn't, what I'm saying is that perhaps if certain things were done (out of the ordinary) they were done for a reason beyond our comprehension..A GurSikh must understand THAT jee..

I think you now misunderstand me..my allegiance lies with my Guroo Maharaj, I belong solely to him..and those part of this family are all my brothers (and sisters). They always come first before history, but I'm saying to forsake history (truthful history) is going to ruin everything our Guroo jee's worked for. We will as you said end up having people who re-write our history. I have no idea what really did occur.. :roll: I just know that our Guroo jee's were visionaries they did things that 1)accomodated the time and the people in it and 2)are beyond our comprehension to question.. For example Guroo Nanak Dev Jee did 'actual' charan door amrit because if they did khandey batay da amrit at that time in history no one would be ready!

Bhul Chuk Maaf..Please pardon my ignorance veerji..

A fellow Sister

[Guest Sardar Moderator Singh]

Mata Jeeto ji: She was the daughter of Harijas Subhikhi of Lahore. This marriage was solemnized in 1734. Three sons - baba Jujhar Singh, baba Zoravar Singh and baba Fateh Singh were born to her. But in Vikrami year 1757 mata Jeeto passed away.

Mata Sundari ji: She was the daughter of Ram Saran of Lahore. She was said to have been married to Guru ji in Vikrami year 1741. Guru ji's youngest son baba Ajit Singh was born to her. After the death of Guru Sahib she lived in Delhi. Outside Turkman Gate in Delhi there is a house (haveli) known by her name. After Guru ji her word was obeyed amongst the Sikhs. It was she who appointed Bhai Mani Singh the head priest of Darbar Sahib in Amritsar.

Mata Sahib Devi ji: She was the daughter of bhai Ramu Bassi of Rohtas in Jehlam district. Bhai Ramu came to Anandpur and told the Guru that his daughter already belonged to the Guru because she had vowed that she will marry only Guru ji. To this Guru ji replied that he will not marry again, but will maintain a platonic relationship with her. And she will have to spend her life in devotion. Bhai Santokh Singh has written in Suraj Prakash that when Mata Sahib Devi demanded progeny from Guru Gobind Singh ji he said that he had given her all the followers of Khalsa religion as progeny. Later, when Guru Gobind Singh had to leave Anandpur and he went on a tour of the South after sacrificing all his four sons, Mata Sundari ji and Mata Sahib Devi ji lived with him for some time in Hazoor Sahib. Mata Sahib Devi passed away in Delhi.

The hukamnanas bearing the signatures of Mata Sundari and Mata Sahib Devi are still available in Patna.

c.1783, BAGHEL SINGH DHALIWAL of KARORIA MISL established his camp near Red Fort in Delhi and raised Gurdwaras at the historical sites associated with the lives of Sikh Gurus, amongst these were where the wives of Guru Gobind Singh were cremated.

I hope this helps for anyone wishing to look further into this matter.

Gur Fateh!

Source: http://www.sikhe.com/modules.php?op=modloa...=&order=&thold=

[tSingh]

Bhai Vir Singh's interpretation is his own in line with british influenced Singh Sabha ideology. It coud be argued that he would state this, as it was in line with the moral values impressed upon him during his christian education.

As for Bhai Gurdas, firstly I've got it as 'ekaa' not 'eko'. You have defended your own point through implication only - where does this refer to Guru Hargobind? You have made a fundamental flaw in assuming that this section of Var 6 is talking about the required qualities of the Guru. Bhai Gurdas is stating the desired qualities of a Gursikh.

over and out

[Aman_90]

Ok, hold on - I haven't read any of the replies posted and have only read the title of this topic. Just wanted to state that - as far as I am aware, there is nothing in SGGS saying "You cannot have more than one wife" - Also, people today have more than 3 wives if you see them around. The Gurujis lived a life of Sikhi and followed teachings that had been passed down to them. They may of married once or twice, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't because of stupid reasons on what occurs today. Why do we worry on such little things? The point of the Gurujis and the SGGS is for teaching others - Sikhs (Pupils). I don't know whether this is relavant and sorry if it isn't but I just wanted to state this.

Pul Chuk Maaf

Fateh

[Guest]

Bhai Gurdas is stating the desired qualities of a Gursikh.

So, polygamy is not permissible for GurSikhs? Why would Guru Ji implement rules different to the ones He followed? He cant have, didn't He take Amrit also?

[tSingh]

I'm sure you're aware that even Bhai Gurdas was suprised by the changes that took place with Guru Hargobind ji (see Varan 26:24). How did he resolve his doubts? By reaffirming his utter faith in the Guru. We must be careful not to let our moral assumptions allow us to do the same with recorded history.

[Guest]

So Bhai Sahib was wrong in saying this? Why isn't it mentioned anywhere? Why was his Bani referred to as the 'key to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji'?, sorry, just asking, dont mean to be offensive, Im curious.

[tSingh]

Yes, I thought I'd get that kind of response...so...to spell it out

NO, I'm not doubting Bhai Gurdas! Please don't put words in my mouth by stating that I'm suggesting he was 'wrong'. Your putting your own value judgements on my statements. Please read my post carefully. Bhai Gurdas was famously suprised by the changes that took place between Guru Arjun Dev ji and Guru Hargobind ji. He was suprised by the behaviour of the new Guru which as we all know was different to the previous Gurus respectively in more ways than one. He discussed this, which eventually led to the episode of Guru Hargobind Sahib testing his humility.

So to clarify, i) the Var referred to is relating to qualities of a Gursikh as Bhai Gurdas himself saw it ii) Bhai Gurdas was suprised by the behaviour of Guru Hargobind Sahib. Taken together these two points further help us to discount Var 6 as a possible source for proving the Guru only had one wife.

[Guest]

Just asking a question, chill. Anyway, so if Bhai Sahib was surprised and made this error in assuming ALL GurSikhs should have ONE wife (which means so should have the Guru's, according to their own rules of following what they preached), then was this Var corrected or commented upon to prove this confusion and surprise on Bhai Sahib's part?

[Guest Maha_Pavitar]

Very insightful replies Veerji..As pointed by Lalleshvari veerji and Sardar Moderator Singh jee in the previous pages there were reasons why our Guroo jee's had more than one wife. Technically speaking, if you get a divorce or if you lose your spouse you are allowed(!) to re-marry, it's encouraged especially if you have children. Our Guroo jee's taught us how to be good human beings, how to be 'Gursikhs' and that means a Gursikh NEVER commits adultery. So you're telling me our pyarey Guroo jee's had more than one wife for such 'lowly' reasons??? Of course not pyareo..

--------

Just to get off topic, why must we get so hasty with each other? It saddens me..veerji is saying please don't put words in my mouth, and you kaur say that 'I'm just asking a question, chill'. Perhaps this isn't my place to say, but we're not here to bicker..we are adults capable of discussions based on logic, facts, and Guroo Jee's bani.. No reason to put up a defense, we're family pyareo! Why create such an atmosphere? It only does everyone damage..

Joy is always there..Please excuse me if I spoke out of place..

[BabbarSher]

Bhai Vir Singh's interpretation is his own in line with british influenced Singh Sabha ideology. It coud be argued that he would state this, as it was in line with the moral values impressed upon him during his christian education.

Perhaps Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha was influenced by Muslims as well as the other scholars were influenced by muslim ideology !!!! ???? .

What suppositions are you making just to proove that Piara Singh Padam's work and your belief are correct !!!!! great

As for Bhai Gurdas, firstly I've got it as 'ekaa' not 'eko'. You have defended your own point through implication only - where does this refer to Guru Hargobind? You have made a fundamental flaw in assuming that this section of Var 6 is talking about the required qualities of the Guru. Bhai Gurdas is stating the desired qualities of a Gursikh.

I had taken the quote from a writing by Sirdar Kapur Singh Ji. I acknowledge my mistake.

You talk about other people putting words in ur mouth. Now you are putting words into my mouth!! Where have I mentioned that it refers to Guru Hargobind Sahib. In fact in another post below, you youself infer it to be reffering to Guru Hargobind Sahib.

I have made no fundamental flaw and dont need such judgemental statements from your end on this.

Yes Var 6 talks about the qualities of a Gursikh. So what applies to the Guru doesnt apply to the sikh !!!!!! This statment perhaps seems ok if coming from your end, but definately the Gurus never thought that way.

(need I remind you that Guru Gobind Singh Ji tested his sikhs when he saluted Dadu Pir's Samadh) as well as the time when Shani Daan was given.........

(Sikh Gurus are not like other prophets who have a different set of rules for themselves and different for their followers)

over and out

.............................

Bhai Gurdas was famously suprised by the changes that took place between Guru Arjun Dev ji and Guru Hargobind ji. He was suprised by the behaviour of the new Guru which as we all know was different to the previous Gurus respectively in more ways than one. He discussed this, which eventually led to the episode of Guru Hargobind Sahib testing his humility.

OK agreed. The point ??

So to clarify, i) the Var referred to is relating to qualities of a Gursikh as Bhai Gurdas himself saw it ii) Bhai Gurdas was suprised by the behaviour of Guru Hargobind Sahib. Taken together these two points further help us to discount Var 6 as a possible source for proving the Guru only had one wife.

What? Just above, in your famous 'over and out' post you question and state in your own words that this Var refers to the qualities of a Gursikh. Now you say it is a possible source for proving that Guru (Hargobind Sahib) had only one wife.

Bhai Gurdas Ji has clearly given the qualities of a gursikh. Bhai Gurdas Ji's Baani is Gurbani and has been given the status of understanding Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

I think the verdict is very clear that a Gursikh should essentially have one wife and only one wife. What applies to a gursikh definately applies to the Guru, beacuse the Guru is the model for the sikh. In fact the standards for the Guru are much higher.

The Gurus started off as sikhs and became Gurus (Guru Angad dev JI and the following Gurus). So that standard only become higher....the bar is only raised higher nor lowered.

Can a teacher ask his student not to eat jagger, if he himself is eating jaggery?

;-) No over and out..I am open to discussion ;-)

[tSingh]

hehe, Sahajleen, please....I'm as chilled as a tomato julius on the rocks.

(By the way, the kirtan was great. I thought it might was going to be shouty stuff, but was truely impressed at how much ras it had. Perfect voice!!! Have you ever listened to Surshri Kesarbai Kerkar, Ustad Allaudiya's chela?)

Babbar

'Sikh Gurus are not like other prophets who have a different set of rules for themselves and different for their followers'

When are we going hunting Babbar? Unless you find that morally apprehensible? If you'd like to cast doubt on that too, perhaps you'd better read Bhai Gurdas' Varan a little closer.

I'm not into feedback loops (only on my CD player), so I'll keep this sweet - simply say that YOU are making the inference that Var 6 applies to the Guru Sahiban as well as the Gursikh. That assumption is exactly that, an assumption. My point is that you need to find a better source to disprove age-old physical smadhs, historical sources from the very oldest and the majority of the panth's best scholars

What else have you got?

please don't bring jaggery into the discussion. That was below the belt (or above it, depending on your perspective)

[Guest]

(Time for you to chill Summeet Ji, lol. Me and JTSingh Ji are just two tamatarr as he said. Thanks JtSingh Ji, Vaheguru dee Kirpa. No I haven't heard him, Im in India at the mo, think I could pick up recordings here?)

As for the topic, it's interesting and hard to accept that Guru Ji would set different rules for themselves. Anyway, Summeet Ji, divorce and remarriage is a completely different issue, we're talking about polygamy, whilst the first or second...wife/ves are still in the marriage.

Anyway, keep it up, interesting views. BTW, so was this Var corrected or rejected at all?

[tableji]

he didnt simple as!