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Osho and Sikhs

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This is a really important for you guys to read.. many ppl(incl me until now) dont know what Osho has said about our Gurus. Read the bold text

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Osho's interaction with sikhs and punjabis

The Sikh religion is in many ways interconnected with the Hindu religion. The Golden Temple in Amritsar,

Punjab, is the main Sikh temple.

One man in Punjab?he was the most famous saint in Punjab, known as the Lion of Punjab, Baba Hari

Giri. He was not aware of me, and it was just a coincidence that in a conference? In Amritsar they have

every year a Vedanta conference, world conference, and at least one hundred thousand people gather in

the conference.

It was just a coincidence that he spoke and I was to speak after him. And I criticized him point by point.

The organizers were simply frozen to death, because that man was respected in Punjab. Thousands will

be ready to die for him. I was not known in Punjab at all, that was my first time to be in Amritsar.

And I criticized him so totally, even on small points, that they were afraid that there is going to be a riot

immediately. And I don't have not even a single person who knows me.

An ancient Vedanta story he has told. The story is that ten blind men cross a river, and after passing the

river they think it is better to count. Perhaps somebody the river has taken away. The current is strong

and it is rainy season. So they start counting. But the count always comes to nine, because everybody

leaves himself. He starts from the other, ends with the last, does not count himself. Naturally, it is nine.

One man sitting on the bank was watching the whole scene. It was hilarious what they were doing. They

started crying and weeping that, "One friend is lost."

That man came and he said, "Don't be worried. I will find your friend. You stand in a line. I will hit the

first man on the head with my stick and you say one. I will strike the second man twice, you say two.

Third three times, you say three. You count how many times I strike and you speak the number."

And they were immensely happy because the last man is found. The tenth man got ten hits.

This is an ancient Vedanta story told for centuries. Nobody has ever raised any question about it. I asked

the people, "This story is absolutely idiotic, because how did these people know that they were ten? Had

they counted before entering the stream? If they knew how to count before they entered the stream, how

did they forget it? How did they know that they were ten? And Hari Giri has to answer it,

otherwise?telling such idiotic stories and making them into great philosophy!"

He became so furious, knowing perfectly well that now there is no answer. If these people count

themselves before entering the stream, then naturally they will be able to count afterwards. If they had

not counted, then how did they come to know that they are ten?

He simply walked down the podium, and I told him, "This escape will not help. I have discussed every

single point that you have raised. If you have any guts?and you are known as the Lion of Punjab, the

whole pride of Punjab is at risk?then don't escape. Come back."

And he would not come back. He simply escaped. And I asked the people, "This man you still want to

call the Lion of Punjab? And I will be here ten days and for ten days I will wait. If he wants, this

challenge is open for ten days. I am ready to fight on every ground."

And the problem is that I am not against the essential message of the Upanishads. But what these people

are doing has nothing to do with the essential. They are making the nonessential more important, because

the nonessential helps them to exploit people. The essential will not help to exploit anybody.

The man simply escaped. Ten days I was there in the conference, and even the organizers were surprised

that not a single Punjabi stood in favor of him. I asked that anybody, if he wants to accept the challenge

in place of his guru, his Master, I am ready. Those one thousand people?one hundred thousand people

just remained silent. In ten days time I was able to manage that what I am saying is the real essence of

Vedanta, and what you have been told up to now is not the real essence.

The real essence is the same whether it is Vedanta or Zen or Sufism or the songs of Baul or Kabir. It

doesn't matter. If anybody who has really attained, experienced, then he will agree with me. last330

It was an every day experience in India. I was worshipped in the temple of Amritsar by the Sikhs almost

as one of their masters. They have ten masters. Actually the man who introduced me in their conference

said that I could be accepted as their eleventh master. But now they won't let me into the temple.

At that time I was holding back many things. I had talked about one small book, Japuji, and the Sikhs

were immensely happy because no non-Sikh had ever bothered. And the meaning I gave to their small

booklet they had never thought of. But when I said, after two years, in a meeting in their Golden Temple

that, "I consider only Nanak to be enlightened; the remaining nine masters are just ordinary teachers,"

they were ready to kill me. I said, "You can kill me, but you will be killing your eleventh

master!" mystic27

I don't have any desire to die. That does not mean that I want to live forever. It simply means that as long

as life is, I enjoy; if death comes, I will enjoy it too. But I am not going to Jerusalem knowing perfectly

well that they are preparing a crucifixion.

It happened in Amritsar when I was getting out of the train, I was blocked. Two hundred Hindu

chauvinist people wanted me to get back into the train and not enter Amritsar. The people who had come

to take me had no idea that there would be two hundred people, so only twenty or twenty-five people

were there just to take me home. And there was to be a meeting immediately?just time enough for me to

take a cup of tea and go to the meeting. So everybody was in the meeting?ten thousand people waiting

there?and these twenty-five people surrounding me in case those two hundred Hindu chauvinists do any

harm to me. I could see in the faces of those two hundred people nothing but murder.

The stationmaster by chance happened to be one of my lovers. He phoned to the Golden Temple of the

Sikhs, "This is the situation: We are not moving the train, because if we move the train there will

immediately be trouble. We are not moving the train. Those people are insisting that he should get into

the train and he is not going to get into the train, so immediately send a few temple guards.

The temple guards have naked swords, so a few temple guards came. As they came the crowd started

dispersing, because naked swords?there would have been a massacre. And for the first time I had to be

escorted, protected from all sides with naked swords, into the city.

I said, "This is my last time in this city."

They said, "Why?"

I said, "Because I don't want this kind of nonsense." And that was not only my last time in that city, I

stopped moving altogether. I said, "Those who want to understand me will come, and those who do not

want to understand me?in fact why should I interfere in their lives? If they don't want me to be in their

city?. It is their city: if they want to remain idiots forever they have the freedom, and I respect their

intention. I cannot force them to be enlightened. Let them remain endarkened?this is their choice. Why

should I bother?"

That day became decisive: I was not going to move anywhere. dark26

===================

please discuss

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the only thing ive heard about this osho fella is from sahijleen kaur who said he did a japji sahib translation (which he refers to in the article)... whats the shit about "i could even be their eleventh master"... prick!!!

:cry:

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Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa the moderator formerly known as Gurpreet Kaur should be the best to fill us on Osho as I believe she's more familiar with his writings and sayings...

...I have read his book on the Mool Mantr many years ago, most of it from my memory was fine, however the reduction of Vaheguru to being Electricity was a tad too simplistic and misleading...but as I say this was some while ago...

...anyway, Bibi Saihajleen Kaur Khalsa Jeeo, please fill us in...

Thanks,

Niranjana

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:shock: I am very shocked at this. Khalsa Ji, where did you get this excerpt? I would like to check it out, was it one of his books?

I have read Osho for many years, his philosophy is based on a Zen/Buddhism mixture. I was at one point so influenced by him that nothing else really mattered, then I researched about Sikhi, and the Gurbani says more to me than one million Osho's. I still read his stuff, because his translation of the Japuji 'The True Name' which some people on the forum have read also, is really commendable. He has praised Guru Nanak Dev Ji and stated He was an enlightened master, but hasn't mentioned any of the other Guru's. On what basis is he saying the other Guru's are just 'ordinary teacher's' makes no sense. The guy he refuted (as he claims) was lecturing on a Hindu story or myth, so even if Osho did refute him, he wasn't able to prove anything wrong about Gurbani, which is the only thing that Sikh lecturer should have been quoting at such an event, and in Amritsar.

This could be a fake story, maybe Osho has concocted this, because why would a 'learned' scholar in Amritsar, in front of so many Sikhs, in our most holiest places, talk about Vedantic philosophy?! Doesn't make sense :?

He has no basis for saying the other Guru's weren't enlightened, unless he proves the Bani contains deficiencies, which is impossible, so he doesn't mention the Guru's teachings at all. Just attacks Hindu mythological stories, which anyone with a bit of knowledge can refute.

Im genuinely surprised, I held him in high regards before, if this is true, then he seems to be really obnoxious, claiming to be the Guru.

Bottom line is, did he refute the Gurbani of, according to him 'ordinary teachers'? :roll:

Gurfateh

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Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

He writes this in his own biography,

http://nonduality.com/osho.pdf

He is one clever fraud.. He himself says that he fools ppl in his biography

Once I went to address a conference of theosophists. Now, theosophists are people who will believe any

bullshit?any! The more shitty it is, the more believable. So I just played a joke on them. I simply

invented something; I invented a society called "Sitnalta." They were all dozing, they became alert.

"Sitnalta?" I made the word by just reading "Atlantis" backwards. And then I told them, "This knowledge

comes from Atlantis, the continent that disappeared in the Atlantic ocean."

And then I talked about it: "There are really not seven chakras but seventeen. That great ancient esoteric

knowledge is lost, but a society of enlightened masters still exists, and it still works. It is a very very

esoteric society, very few people are allowed to have any contact with it; its knowledge is kept utterly

secret."

And I talked all kinds of nonsense that I could manage. And then the president of the society said, "I

have heard about this society." Now it was my turn to be surprised. And about whatsoever I had said, he

said that it was the first time that the knowledge of this secret society had been revealed so exactly.

just want to let you guys know.

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Osho was a funny bloke (not in a stand-up-comedy sense). Let's just say he went a little of the rails towards the end - he started believing what people around him were saying about him. He had a bit of a breakdown at one point at the height of his fame or rather infamy. I find it very strange how in the west he is seen as a classic evidence for 'religious cults are bad bad bad', whereas in India he's on TV every night and you can get that magazine there too. There's even one dhaba on GT Road about an hour before Delhi which seems to sell just parathay and Osho.

I enjoyed that Japuji Sahib katha he did, although I've been told he was relying on a hindi translation. I doubt very much that he got around to reading any Dasam bani.

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Yesterday, kathavichak baba ji from nanaksar talkin about this guy... he didnt know his name but he did said the same thing...that he did a translations which was in hindi etc etc...

anyways he is gone now with no real successors after him.. thats good news... no more of his propaganda :roll:

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With regard the Vedantic story, how did he know that the 10 blind men were not told by somebody else at the beginning of their trip that there 10 of them? hehe. how anal is that.

I liked his disregard for religious authority figures. I didn't like his exploitlation and perviness. But his books are generally favoured by those who like to hear things watered down, and at times de-contextualised.

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:!: I think its good to give background of Osho so members don't get confused. :!:

source: http://www.religioustolerance.org/rajneesh.htm

Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh (1931-1990) was born Rajneesh Chandra Mohan in Kuchwara, a town in central India. One source states that "Bhagwan" means "The Blessed One" and that "Shree" means "Master". At the end of his life, he changed his name to Osho.

His parents' religion was Jainism. However, Osho never subscribed to any religious faith during his lifetime. He received "samadhi" (enlightenment in which his soul became one with the universe) on 1953-MAR-21 at the age of 21. Rajneesh obtained a masters degree in philosophy from the University of Saugar. He taught philosophy at the University of Jabalpur for nine years and concurrently worked as a religious leader. In 1966, he left his teaching post and gave his full attention to teaching his sannyasins (disciples) while pursuing a speaking career. He had an apartment in Bombay where he often met individuals and small groups, where acting as spiritual teacher, guide and friend. Most of his Sannyasins came from Europe and India in the early years.

In 1974, Osho moved from Bombay southward to Pune, India. Some anti-cult groups have claimed that this decision was made because of local opposition from the public in Bombay. In reality, it was to establish an ashram (place of teaching) which would provide larger and more comfortable facilities for his disciples. The ashram consisted of two adjoining properties covering six acres in an affluent suburb of Pune called Koregaon Park. Some estimate as many as 50,000 Westerners spent time seeking enlightenment there with the guru. In 1979, he saw his movement as the route to the preservation of the human race. He said: If we cannot create the 'new man' in the coming 20 years, then humanity has no future. The holocaust of a global suicide can only be avoided if a new kind of man can be created." He taught a syncretistic spiritual path that combined elements from Hinduism, Jainism, Zen Buddhism, Taoism, Christianity, ancient Greek philosophy, many other religious and philosophic traditions, humanistic psychology, new forms of therapy and meditation, etc.

In 1980, he was the victim of a knife attack by a Hindu fundamentalist during his morning discourse. Because of police incompetence, the charges against the terrorist were dropped.

In 1981 he left India reluctantly because of health problems. He went to the United States in order to obtain advanced treatment. There have been rumors of income tax evasion, and insurance fraud; it is not known whether these have any validity. The group settled on the 65,000 acre "Big Muddy Ranch" near Antelope, Oregon, which his sannyasins had bought for six million dollars. The ranch was renamed Rajneeshpuram ("Essence of Rajneesh"). This "small, desolate valley twelve miles from Antelope, Oregon was transformed into a thriving town of 3,000 residents, with a 4,500 foot paved airstrip, a 44 acre reservoir, an 88,000 square foot meeting hall..." 8 Many of the local folks were intolerant of the new group in their midst, because of religious and cultural differences. One manifestation of this intolerance was the town's denial of building permits to the followers of Rajneesh. Some buildings were erected on the ranch without planning board approval. When officials attempted to stop the construction, their office was firebombed by unknown person(s). When the local city council repeatedly refused to issue permits for their businesses, some sannyasins elected themselves to the city council. The town of Antelope was renamed City of Rajneesh.

Top aides of Osho were charged with a number of crimes, including the attempted murder of Osho's personal physician. There were stories of a hit list. Some fled the country for Switzerland where they had control over the group's bank accounts. Two were eventually convicted of conspiracy to murder local lawyer Charles Turner in an attempt to prevent closure of the ranch.

In 1983, Osho's secretary Sheela Silverman predicted on behalf of Osho that there would be massive destruction on earth, between 1984 and 1999. This would include both natural disasters and man-made catastrophes. Floods larger than any since Noah, extreme earthquakes, very destructive volcano eruptions, nuclear wars etc. would be experienced. Tokyo, New York, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Bombay were all expected to disappear. There is doubt that these predictions actually came from Osho; they are not representative of his other teachings.

A number of sources have reported that spiritual devotees of Rajneesh had spread salmonella on a local restaurant's salad bar in order to reduce voter turnout on a measure that would have restricted the group's activities. Allegedly, 751 people were affected by the bacteria. 9,10

Fearing a raid of the type that later happened in Waco, several of Osho's disciples arranged for him to be flown to Charlotte for safety. In North Carolina, he ran afoul of US immigration law. He allegedly arranged a number of phony marriages between some of his Indian followers and American citizens so that the former could obtain clearance to stay in the country. He was also charged with lying on his immigration papers. He entered an "Alford Plea," commonly called a no-contest plea. His lawyers suggested that he do this because of concerns over his health and safety if he had to spend more time in prison. He was given a suspended sentence on condition that he leave the country. He returned to Pune, India in 1987, where his health began to fail. Here, he abandoned the name of Rajneesh and adopted "Osho". Osho was derived from the expression "oceanic experience" by William James. He died in Pune in 1990. Various rumors spread that he had been poisoned with thallium by the CIA, had been exposed to damaging doses of radiation by the U.S. authorities, or had heart failure. It is obvious that he did not experience thallium poisoning, because he died with a full beard, and only male-pattern baldness on the top of his head. A person suffering from thallium poisoning suffers a dramatic loss of hair with a week of exposure. 6 His death certificate lists heart failure as the cause of his death.

At its peak, they had about 200,000 members and 600 centers around the world. They were targeted by many anti-cult groups as an evil, mind control cult. One source, in a masterful stroke of religious disinformation, claimed that "Bhagwan" means "Master of the Vagina." He has been called the "sex guru."

Beliefs and Practices

Osho developed new forms of active meditation. The best known is Dynamic Meditation which often starts with strenuous physical activity followed by silence and celebration. These were expected to lead the individual to overcome repression, lower their personal inhibitions, develop a "state of emptiness", and attain enlightenment. The person then would have "no past, no future, no attachment, no mind, no ego, no self." Prior to 1985, the disciples wore red robes, and a necklace of 108 beads which had an attached picture of Rajneesh. Osho assigned a new name to each of the disciples. Men were given the title "Swami"; women were called "Ma". Although most members lived a frugal, simple lifestyle, Rajneesh himself lived in luxury. His collection 27 Rolls Royces, given to him by his followers, was well known. (Some sources say he had as many as 100 cars). Anti-cult groups claimed that he urged his disciples to sever their connection to their families of origin. It is true that he felt that the institution of the family was out of date and that it should be replaced with alternate forms of community and ways of caring for children. However, he actually encouraged individual disciples to make peace with their families. Many became disciples themselves, including Osho's own parents.

He taught a form of Monism, that God was in everything and everyone. There is no division between "God" and "not-God". People, even at their worse, are divine. He recognized Jesus Christ as having attained enlightenment, and believed that he survived his crucifixion and moved to India where he died at the age of 112. Osho was noted for reading very offensive jokes; some were anti-Semitic; others were anti-Roman Catholicism; others insulted just about every ethnic and religious group in the world. He explained that the purpose of these jokes was to shock people and to encourage them to examine their identification with and attachment to their ethnic or religious beliefs. His contention was that national, religious, gender and racial divisions are destructive.

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Sat Sri Akal:

Who the heck is Osho to comment on anything related to Sikhism? He is a man unable to control his own lustfor women and has reported to have intercourse with thousands of women. You want to take his commentary on Sikhism as gold?

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Friends

I had read the comments of all of U regarding him(Achariya Rajneesh) . Here i want to know u all i had read a few books of him. As much as i know him by his writing skills he is belived to be as a men of logic who drove things by the nature. No doubt some of his articles are always be in focus or was the reason for negetive influence(like AFTER DEATH which coz lead to some bout 420 students to have suicide to feel the experince 'n' joys which we will feel after the death) on the sociaty, but there is nothing like objectionable in such my reading from him. I hope U 'll give me if u know some bout.

Might possible he has written some non acceptable views but if then if somebody have some reference I ask to those my friends to share such references with the forum. So that the people like me will know more about the thinking of that guy bout SIKHISM.

Joyce

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(like AFTER DEATH which coz lead to some bout 420 students to have suicide to feel the experince 'n' joys which we will feel after the death)

:shock: :shock:

I was at one point goin to do that... i wasnt influenced by his oobe's stories but influenced by other nde's and oobe's by researchers. :cry: :cry: :.. then maharaj helped me... i start questioning myself if i were to do that just for joy with no naam kaami with me... i wasted my life.. :D ... which guro arjan dev ji talks about:

Eho tari vaari haie gobind millan di

Oh Human this is only chance to meet god

:D

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Sat Sri Akal:

Joyce Sahib, read above BOLDED text in the article:

"But when I said, after two years, in a meeting in their Golden Temple

that, "I consider only Nanak to be enlightened; the remaining nine masters are just ordinary teachers,"

they were ready to kill me. I said, "You can kill me, but you will be killing your eleventh

master!" mystic27 "

You want something more offensive? It doesn't get any more offensive than that...

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I know all of you will think im defending the guy who is talking bad about our gurus. But if you people haven't read his book on Japji Sahib, then you don't know what kind of experiences i felt just by reading what he wrote. How my Faith and Love toward our Gurus and God increased.

Actually the man who introduced me in their conference said that I could be accepted as their eleventh master.

Firstly what kind of sikh was that guy who told Osho that he could be our 11th master???

Secondly, There was probably a reason behind what he said, None of YOU know what that reason was and neither do i. We can call him names, we can call him fake. We can bring our own conclusions to who he was, but it is only he himself who can explain why he said it. I want to know why he said it, because it does sound offensive and ignorent. I am not going to Slander him, I want to question his motive behind what he said. Since he no longer is alive, there can be no answer to his motive. Things are said, but the Motive behind is just as important.

I am simply trying to undestand why he said it. Perhaps many of you will think i am trying to bend over backwards to try to justify what he said instead of saying he was a fake. If he is Fake then the Experience that i had when i read his book is also fake. What ever i have grasped about meditation, God, Life from his transcripts is also fake. That is hard for me to take in, because the understanding and the feelings were very real and it brought peace to the mind. That is hard to forget and deny.

Perhaps for other it is as simple as pointing fingers and declare him a liar and a prick, but for me i would want to find Faults in my Intellect that cannot grasp his intentions. I look at my faults before i look at others. Perhaps i am missing something that i might have overlooked.

Then again i don't know why he said it, but i did find this so it is really up to the individual to decide.

Osho talks about his vision, and his books

I am not creating any religion. It is only a religiousness, a diffused kind of religiousness, not very tangible. You cannot make a creed out of it, you cannot make a church out of it—impossible! I am not leaving a single Bible or Koran or Gita so you can make a church out of it. When I will leave the world I will leave at least one thousand books, so contradictory to each other that anybody trying to make out any dogma out of them will go crazy. It is impossible to make any dogma out of my ideas, but you can transform your being through them. ggate210

I have been constantly inconsistent so that you will never be able to make a dogma out of me. You will simply go nuts if you try. I am leaving something really terrible for scholars. They will not be able to

make any sense out of it. They will go nuts; and they deserve it, they should go nuts. But nobody can create an orthodoxy out of me, it is impossible….From my words you can get burned, but you will not be able to find any kind of theology, dogmatism. You can find a way to live but not a dogma to preach. You can find a rebellious quality to be imbibed, but you will not find a revolutionary theme to be organized.

My words are not only on fire. I am putting gunpowder also here and there, which will go on exploding for centuries. I am putting more than needed—I never take any chances. Almost each sentence is going

to create trouble for anybody who wants to organize a religion around me.

Yes, you can have a loose community, a commune. Remember the word loose: everybody independent, everybody free to live his own way, to interpret me in his own way, to find whatsoever he wants to find.

He can find the way he wants to live—and everybody unto himself.

There is no need for somebody to decide what my religion is. I am leaving it open-ended. You can work out a definition for yourself, but it is only for yourself; and that too you will have to continuously change.

As you understand me more and more, you will have to change it. You cannot go on holding it like a dead thing in your hand. You will have to change it, and it will go on changing you simultaneously. person08

Do you want me to say that I bring you the last message? I am not going to say it. I am not going to be in the company of all these fools who have been trying somehow to make their religion look bigger, higher,

truer. I say to you that I am not bringing anybody's message—because there is nobody! I want you to understand that I am simply trying to share my experience with you. It is always fresh, always young; it

is always in the now, in the here. That is a fundamental quality of truth.

And I'm not saying that after me there will be nobody who will experience it. On the contrary, I am saying to you that if you understand me, there are going to be millions of people after me who will go on and on and on discovering more and more. Even if they have to contradict me, don't bother about it—let them contradict. Who am I? I am not closing the doors. I am not putting a lock on the door and taking the keys with me. My house is without doors. It is open from everywhere—and I want it to remain always open.

Naturally, people who will be coming will make new arrangements of the furniture in the house. They may plan a new architecture for the house, they may make new plans for the garden. I leave it to them, but the process will be the same. false21

One of the most important things to be remembered by all is the way you have started your question. The question is, "I have heard You say." Usually, people drop the first part. They simply say, "You have said

this." And there is such a great difference between the two, such an immense difference that it is unbridgeable, and needs a great understanding. Whatever you hear is not necessarily the thing said; what is said is not necessarily what you hear. The obvious reason is that I am speaking from a different space of being, and you are hearing from a totally different space. In the transmission, many things change. It is always a sign of understanding to remember that whatever I have said may be totally different than what you have heard. Your question should be about what you have heard, because how can you ask a question about something which you have not heard? golden11

So the greatest work for sannyasins is to keep the message pure, unpolluted by you or by others—and wait. The future is bound to be more receptive, more welcoming. We may not be here but we can manage

to change the consciousness for centuries to come. And my interest is not only in this humanity; my interest is in humanity as such.

Keep the message pure, twenty-four carat gold. And soon those people will be coming for whom you have made a temple—although it is sad when you are making the temple; nobody comes. And when people start coming, you will not be here. But one has to understand one thing: we are part of a flowing river of consciousness. You may not be here in this form, you may be here in another form, but keep it in mind never to ask such a question that I should be more acceptable, more respectable, more in agreement with the masses. I cannot be. And it is not stubbornness on my part. It is just that truth cannot compromise. It has never done it; it would be the greatest sin. sermon12

The Masters have always believed in the spoken word; there are reasons for it. The Masters have never written books. The spoken word has a lively quality to it; the written word is dead, it is a corpse. When I am speaking to you it is a totally different thing than when you will be reading it in a book, because when you are reading in a book it is only a word; when you are listening to the Master it is more than the word. The presence of the Master is overpowering! Before the word reaches you, the Master has already reached; he is already overflooding you. Your heart is breathing with the Master, beating with the Master in the same rhythm. You are breathing in the same rhythm. There is a communion, an invisible link. the presence of the Master, his gestures, his eyes…the words spoken by him are ordinary words, but when spoken by a Master they carry something of the beyond; they carry some silence, some

meditativeness, some of his experience, because they come from his innermost core.

It is like passing through a garden: even though you have not touched a single flower, but when you reach home you can still feel the fragrance of the garden; your clothes have caught it, your hairs have

caught it. The pollen of the flowers was in the wind. You have not touched anything, but the fragrance was in the air; it has become something part of you. ithat09

Jesus' recorded life was very poor because his followers were obsessed with history. They could not write anything that was beyond history.

The eastern mind could see that we cannot do justice to Krishna or Buddha if we limit ourselves to bare events. This will be an injustice because the real has happened somewhere else. Then how to record the

real? It cannot be recorded. But, we can create a myth. And that myth can indicate, can show something about it. Those who will read the myth will not read a bare statement of events. They will go deep into the poetry of the myth, deep into the imagination. And it may be possible that somewhere, from their own imagination not from the facts—very far from the facts, from somewhere deep in their own unconscious minds, from what Jung calls 'archetypes'—they might get a glimpse; they may be able to know what has happened beyond history. They may be able to know, from deep down within themselves.

History cannot go deep inside you. Only poetry can. But only from within you can something happen which will be in sympathy with the nontemporal, which can be in communion with the nonhistorical.

Krishna's life and Buddha's life are only jumping points to enable you to go deeply inside yourself. If you read Tulsidas, a western historian will say that this is not history; this is imagination. It is. But I still say

that Tulsidas does more justice to Ram than Luke can ever do to Christ because he knows the secret. By going deeply into what Tulsidas has written, you will again relive the whole phenomenon. Time will be

transcended; you will again be in the time of Ram. Now there are no space/time relationships. Deep within yourself, you are in Ram's milieu—as if Ram was present, as if he was somewhere nearby….

This is a mythological approach to the nontemporal. Re-enacting it. Reviving it. Resurrecting it. History cannot do this; only myth can do this. Myth is helpful but not substantial: A creative imagination is

needed to fill in the substance…. When we live in time, in the world of events, if someone is not doing anything it seems as if he is not.

Doing is everything. Doing is in the realm of history, but being is in the realm of the spirit. You are; you just are. You are not doing anything, not even mentally. Nothing either physical or mental is happening There is no doing at all, no ripple of action at all you are in an absolute nondoing state. But you are! This beingness is the vertical dimension. Through this beingness, you jump into the unknown, into the divine. And unless one jumps into this non-historical, non-temporal moment, one has not known what life is. quest06

The first thing you have to understand is the difference between the fact and the truth. Ordinary history takes care about the facts—what actually happens in the world of matter, he incidents. It does not take care about the truth, because it does not happen in the world of matter; it happens in consciousness. And man is not yet mature enough to take care about the events of consciousness. He surely takes care about events happening in time and in space; those are the facts. But he is not mature enough, not insightful enough to take care about what happens beyond time and beyond space—in other words, what happens beyond mind, what happens in consciousness. One day we will have to write the whole of history with a totally different orientation, because the facts are trivia—although they are material, they don't matter. And the truths are immaterial but they matter. The new orientation for a future history will take care about what happened inside Gautam Buddha when he became enlightened, what went on happening while he was in the body for forty-two years after his

enlightenment. And what was happening in those forty-two years is not going to be discontinued just because the body drops dead. It had no concern with the body. It was a phenomenon in consciousness, and consciousness continues. The pilgrimage of the consciousness is endless. So what was happening in the consciousness inside the body, will go on happening outside the body. That is a simple understanding. So this story is a story of inner happenings. rebel27

Lao Tzu, one of the most important figures in the history of non-doing…. If history is to be written rightly then there should be two kinds of histories: the history of doers—Genghis Khan, Tamerlane, Nadirshah, Alexander, Napoleon Bonaparte, Ivan the Terrible, Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler, Benito

Mussolini; these are the people who belong to the world of doing. There should be another history, a higher history, a real history—of human consciousness, of human evolution: the history of Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu, Lieh Tzu, Gautam Buddha, Mahavira, Bodhidharma; a totally different kind. upan28

It is one of my deep desires that when our mystery schools are functioning, slowly slowly, we will bring from all over the world the great mystical scriptures, without any consideration of to whom they belong,

and publish them with the latest commentaries, so that mysticism does not remain just a word but becomes a vast literature, and anybody can devote his whole life to understanding what the mystics have given to the world. transm25

What I am doing here is play—it is not work. When I am gone, my work is to be known as play, never as work. So take it non-seriously. Seriousness is a disease and through seriousness no one has ever gone

beyond. Seriousness is so heavy that it makes you rooted in the gravitation. One needs to be very playful, then one can go beyond gravitation—one can fly! A great unburdening is needed, so just be playful about it. When I say, 'when walking, watch,' I mean be playful. If sometimes you forget, nothing is wrong in it. Watch that too—you have forgotten, good! Then again you remember, good! Both are good. In fact there is a rhythm. You cannot constantly watch; it is just like breathing in, breathing out. whip08

Life is love and love is celebration. Celebration is the very core of religion, the soul. Without celebration religion becomes a corpse. And that's what has happened to religions in the past again and again: they

become serious. And the moment they become. serious, only the dead body is there. Religion remains alive only through celebration. When Buddha is there, there is celebration. When Krishna is there, there is celebration. When Jesus is there, there is celebration. The moment the Master leaves the body the disciples become very serious, they become fanatics, and they start becoming missionaries: they want to convert the whole world. They start arguing, proving, disproving; they create theology. And slowly slowly the soul dies—they become too engaged with other things. Religion lives only through celebration, as celebration. But this point has been missed again and again; that's why so many religions were born but they all died, and they all died a premature death. It was not necessary to die; they could have lived and served humanity. I want to make it very conscious in my sannyasins not to be serious; be sincere but don't be serious. And remember continuously that existence is in a constant celebration. When you are in celebration you are in tune with existence, in tune with God, in tune with Tao. When you become serious you fall apart.

The old proverb is right: When you laugh the whole world laughs with you, but when you cry, when you weep, you weep alone. People are ready to share with you if you are happy. They themselves are in enough misery—who wants to be with a serious man? The serious man is heavy.

It is said that you cannot live with a saint twentyfour hours a day: you will die of boredom. But of course, these are not saints about whom that is said; otherwise you can live with a saint for eternity and you can

go on celebrating. But then the saint has to have a different taste, a different flavor to him. That flavor is called utsavo.

My sannyasins have to be laughing, dancing, singing. That is their prayer. If you can laugh a heartful laugh, it is prayer. If you can dance to abandon, it is prayer. If you can sing your being, that is prayer. And there is no need to take religion seriously. Seriousness is pathological. Children are not serious, because they are very close to the source of life. The birds are not serious; nobody has ever come across a bird who is serious. The trees are not serious; nobody has ever seen a tree serious. It is all joy…it is continuous celebration. Even when a flower is dying and the petals are falling there is no seriousness at all; even in the dying flower you will see joy and beauty and thankfulness. And that's how a man should live and should die. Dancing one should live, and dancing one should die. I teach the dancing God. athing05

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Sat Sri Akal:

Joyce Sahib, read above BOLDED text in the article:

"But when I said, after two years, in a meeting in their Golden Temple

that, "I consider only Nanak to be enlightened; the remaining nine masters are just ordinary teachers,"

they were ready to kill me. I said, "You can kill me, but you will be killing your eleventh

master!" mystic27 "

You want something more offensive? It doesn't get any more offensive than that...

SSA MS514, ist of all me not sahib. So please dont this word again.

Anyway there is no doubt his statments was violant . But there is nothing in Shri Guru Granth Sahib (as much i know )mentioned that we (sikhs) have any need to be consider any guy/gal saying him/her as the 11th Guru coz we already clear Hukamnama from SGGS that

Guru Maniyo Granth

aND ONE MORE THINK I NEVER TRY TO defend anybody if him/her found guilty So dont go that way please.

I hope ....................

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Thanks for that link princess-sonia...

He is self-styled cult leader...if he was a enlightened .. he wouldnt called our guroo's merely ordinary teachers... :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

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Always find myself coming back this bloke, but Agehananda Bharati explained that someone can reach a 'zero state' (mystic union) without it affecting their moral behaviour, although it would seem to hinder future progress. From experience, I have met people who do not live typically moralistic lives who undoubtedly have had that unified experience. I have met athiests who have had this experience. The question lies in whether there are degrees to this experience. Bharati states that the only person he met who seemed to consistently attain this state was Ramana Maharishi.

Osho seems to be another example of someone who had the experience, could beautifully elucidate upon it, was blessed with incredible chit, but whom fame took over and ruined. I think it is a mistake to discredit all of his work on his later failings. Another classic example of this is Chogyum Trungpa, the famous 20th century Mahayana Buddhust lama, who wrote many very good texts (including ironically 'Cutting through Spiritual Materialism' which along with St. John of the Cross' 'Dark Night of the Soul' both of which are like a tick-list of spiritual 'I do that' vices!). Trungpa went off the rails because of his kaam. He seemingly always was a bit of a randy old bugger, but his many highly dedicated followers were put into a real dilemna - do we reject all his teachings or do we carry on? They carried on, and decided that his behaviour was a modern example of 'crazy wisdom', outlandish immoral behaviour designed to shake you up, reassess things, shake you out of taking things for granted. Another example of crazy wisdom is the 6th Dalai Lama, Tsangyang Gyatso, ironically who was more concerned about earthly beauty, drinking, lazing around with his friends, chasing girls and writing poems, than sitting all day blessing people and studying.

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Mahayana Buddhust... hmmm..... you know what.. people here can hardly understand SIKHI....

well i think a person is described by his deeds... well too bad at at the end (which is according to you) his spiritual stage was kindda destroyed... if his "Osho seems to be another example of someone who had the experience, could beautifully elucidate upon it, was blessed with incredible chit" was STRONG ENOUGH.... his FAME would not have ruined him!!!!!!!.

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