What Does Sikhi say about God?

[Khalistani Singh]

WJKK WJKF,

Recently for some odd reason I've found myself contemplating on this God issue...

I have an athiest view on god...like i think hes jus created for the benefit of society...and he revoles everywhere in us...but God doesn't control everything and all that...cause like people pray for that n this...hes not gonna actually give u all that...god is jus formless n etc...but then again so many faiths seemed to have interacted with God, like christ, mohammed, nanak, etc...so im like hmm

maybe there is a god...but i dont know?...but when i say waheguru im like okay...i feel god...i dunno

I dont know...without Sikhi, I'd like die...there would be no point in my life...

I find Sikhi to be really practical and thats why i find it attractive...i can see the reasoning behinds most aspects...like recently i've been experiencing "headaches" and "migraines" cause i'm thinking too much about unncessary issues...yet I know if i do paht, and just LIVE life, i can make it all go away...and its just basically MASTERING of the Mind...

i've read an article somewhere...that God was neither created nor invented for society...without God society would be so corrupt...like how do we know atoms and all that exist, gravity? etc...we just tend to believe in it...so maybe I should apply the same views on God, since Christ, Mohammed, Guru Nanak all have "interacted" with God...

Cause I dont find myself believing that there is someone above us that Controls everything....but sometimes I do...but I dont know...cause I don't pray for what i need, i just pray for others usually...But somedays I dont think of this issue at all....

Its amzing how dinosaurs once lived on this world...and how "Science" has made such a universe...but who controls this all? No one? or is there really One God?

Just Puzzled... :? :cry:

[Guest]

read jaap sahib

[Ideal Singh]

We had similar disussions on another thread... the following is the extract of a useful and interesting article posted by dear Pheena... which to me seems most plausable and appropriate & provides concrete answers to our queries on the existence of God... hope its useful to you as well...

Here it goes...

To ask whether God exists is absurdity in itself. For those who know, God is the existence, or existence is the God... only things exist, not God. An object exists because a object can go into non-existence... To say that an object exists is meaningful because its non-existence is possible...

God is existence, the very isness. When we say God exists we create something out of the word God, but then God becomes a thing. But God is not a thing, nor is God a person, that is why we cannot make him responsible for anything. Responsibility only comes when there is a personality, when there is someone who can be responsible...

God is not a person, but He is pure existence. The word God is misleading because the word personifies an object. It is better to use the word 'existence'. The totality of existence is God.

So, it cannot be asked whether God exists. That's like asking whether existence exists. Put this way—whether existence exists—the question becomes absurd. Obviously existence exists; there is no question about it. The question cannot even exist if there is no existence, nor can the questioner.

God is not a thing among other things, God is total thingness. To say that the table exists is the same as saying that the table is God. To say that you exist is the same as saying that you are God. God is the existence. God is isness, the quality of isness, the quality of existence...

The biggest question is that if God is, then why is the world so Evil?" This questions seems right, because there can be no relationship between God and Evil. How can there be?

Now, Let us remove all evil from the world for a moment. Can we visualize what the world will be like then? The moment you remove evil, the good also disappears from the scene. Good cannot exist on its own. It is because of evil that good exists. Remove darkness and light disappears together with it. Light exists because of darkness. Remove the cold, and the heat is automatically lost. Heat and cold are different variations of the same thing. If we try to remove death, life too will be lost. If there is no death, how can life be? Or, if there is no life, how can death be?

The universe exists with the help of polar opposites. The world's existence is brought about by the music between opposites. If the opposite is removed, both are removed. Remove the male, and the female is lost. Remove old age, and youth is lost. The young person always wishes to prolong his youth because he does not know that youth and old age are so closely combined that if one is removed, the other is lost. We all wish ugliness to be removed from the world; but if ugliness is lost, beauty will also disappear. If you wish for a world without ugliness, be prepared to face a world where nothing is beautiful.

If you wish for a world where evil is banned, good will flee from such a place immediately. Then this world will be a big prison house; because where there is no freedom to do evil, there can be no freedom at all.

In fact, the word "freedom" contains the freedom to do evil also. If a man is told that he is free only to be good, what meaning does such a freedom convey? This freedom has no meaning. Rather, it implies bondage. It would be proper to say; you are condemned to be good—not free to be good. When we tell a person he is free to be good, the freedom to be evil enters along with the freedom to be good. God is the totality and yet he does not control anything. This means that God creates, but He creates Freedom... :!:

A man is free to be good and free to be bad—as bad as he wishes—when God is the Lord of everything. This is because true freedom exists only if there is freedom to do what one wishes, be it good or bad. When no such freedom exists, man is not man but a machine which does whatever it is made to do because it is insentient.

For Man is sentient; (Endowed with feeling and unstructured consciousness) he possesses consciousness. Consciousness is not possible without freedom...

If we say, "God created the world."

Then question arises, "Who created Sin?"

"The devil."... we would say.

But, "Who created the devil?"

"Of course, God created the devil."...

The devil creates sin and God creates the devil. Then who is the real sinner—the devil or God? But the dualist conception always leads to such absurdities...

The God and the Devil are not two. Really, for there is nothing that can be called "Devil", everything is divine, everything is holy... And this seems to be the right standpoint, the deepest. If anything is unholy in this world, from where does it come and how can it be?

We ask whether our fate is determined...?

Aren't we asking whether we are so important, so significant for this universe that our fate must be determined beforehand. "What is my purpose?"

Then we ask. "Why was I created?" This childhood nonsense that you are the center creates these questions like, "For what purpose am I created?"

We are not created for any purpose. And it is good that we are not created for any purpose; otherwise we would be a machine. A machine is created for some purpose. Man is not created for some purpose, for something—no! Man is just the outflowing, overflowing creation. Everything simply is. Flowers are there and stars are there and you are there. Everything is just an overflowing, a joy, a celebration of existence without any purpose….

[d33p]

To ask whether God exists is absurdity in itself. For those who know, God is the existence, or existence is the God... only things exist, not God. An object exists because a object can go into non-existence... To say that an object exists is meaningful because its non-existence is possible..

This is stupid. Its a tautological argument that hinges on the existence of God not being subject to logic. But this argument is done using logic. You either assume God exists, could exist, or does not exist.

I didnt bother reading the rest of the post because it seems bullshit.

Regards,

d33p.

undefined

[BabbarSher]

Well the logical thing to ask would be..that if God does not exist....what in the blue blazes are we doing here.

Doesnt it sound meaningless..to live life and in the end die ...just burn out like a flame. Whats the purpose of this whole play ?

Look into the mirro and think..who is this person in the mirror.

Just do it..it should get a thought process which should result in the logical deduction of God. (if thats what people would like to have) :-)

[d33p]

babbarsher not everyone believes that there is a God. I think the sikh world view accomodates for them, as well as other kinds of faiths.

I mean we can all learn from sikhi. Discipline, fidelity, Social Justice, Appreciation of the universe and its beauty. etc. Or even if you just want to go about your life by contemplating God all the time.

I am unsure if we actually have a choice in the matter or if we are destined to do so. If it is a matter of destiny, then who are we to question his Will. If people are destined to live not believing there is a God. Then thats his business, isnt it?

I dont know if accept this view so much, but if its the sikh view, i guess i should understand it at least, even if i dont agree with it. I like to think humans are capable of deciding how they wish they to lead their lives, including the choice of whether or not there is a creator. And if you decide either way, then its your personal choice and so on.

But then i also think if say i believe God exists, then i can believe so many other things. Like God has the ability to change my fate, and change basically anything in the system. Where the system here is our universe. Just because hes capable doesnt mean he does. And i wish to stress that my usage of hte pronoun He here does not arise from a anthropomorphic idea of God. I just think fair enough, I believe in Truth, and thats my choice. And then Truth comes to me in various ways. Mainly through intuition, but mostly when iam thinking. SO thats my choice there, to think. and understand.

Iam probably just as confused as Khalistani Soldier (Big u bro) but i got ticked off at the authorative and clearly nonsense post of pheena.

[d33p]

you might also try finding an atheist and ask them that question. you'll probably be suprised by their answer. I remember reading feynmans thoughts on God and I dont really think he thought God existed. But he was fully into nature is beautiful and amazing and i learned a lot from him. Anyway i ask the same questions as you and i like wondering why. I foudn i could assume a creator so powerful and elegant created this universe of ours and feel satisified.

[BabbarSher]

Very interesting topic.

In fact this topic has crept up many a times. Let me share some of my experiences, thoughts and beliefs with you. I am not saying they are authorative, but do give them some thought, as some thought has been put into them

Firstly, let me share a recent experience with you. I in fact got in touch with a person who is an aethist, and we really got involved in discussions on God. It turned out that she did belive in a supreme power, but not in God. I make a similar deduction from the comments of you 2 above.

Perhaps then we need to look at the concpet of God that is imbibed in our minds from the earliest days.

If we were to ask a child to make a apictire of God, it would wary:

Perhaps in india (due to the multiple mythological serials being shown)..God's image would be that of a richly clad person, with flowing locks and a clean face, sometimes with multiple limbs, sometimes reclining on a Kamal etc.

A child who has studied in Christian schools, would perhaps (and I have studied in a Convent) make a picture of a bearded, old man, clad in whites, sitting ona aThrone etc.

Someone in Jewish region would make God as a person, seated on a throne, some one who is angry etc.

Clearly different images, with a single commonality: the image is of a person. This then is the image of God pervading most human beings.

Now in the light of Sikhi, is this true ? Is God someone who is person like?

Or maybe even if he is formless, is he based at a single place. Even if he is at a single place, is he present at only a single point in time ?

One thing is very clear, Gurbaani gives a very clear indication of God. The question then as posed above is what is his defination. If there is a defination, can we really deifne him, or can we only give some indicators.

To find the answers, lets analyse the Mul Mantar:

Ek Onkaar - There is only one God

Satnaam - True is his name (that is only HIS name is true, the rest is relative--can be false/true)

Karta Purakh - the doer

Nirbhau-Doesnt fear anyone

Nirvair-doesnt have any enemies

Akaal Murat - he is beyond time

Ajooni - doesnt get born/doesnt die

Saibhang - he gets born from himself

Gurprasad - can be attained by the Kirpa of the Guru (True Master)

(I am sorry If I missed out on translating anything)

These then are the indicators.

The indicators and a lot of other Shabads, give us an insight that the God of the sikhs is not a person like personality. He does not sit on a throne at a single place in time.

He is an ever permeating force. prevailing at all places and at all points in time.

Can I humbly request you to please read Japji Sahib - line by line with translation by Prof. Sahib Singh Ji.

Please follow thw following methodology:

First read the whole paath and the meaning and then tryu to extract the learning - whatever u may have grasped

Therafter do the following

First Day

1. Read first line

2. Read the meaning

3. Anaylse

4. Think and query urself: write doen your queries. the thoughts that arise in ur mind. DONT MAKE ANY JUDGEMENTS AT THIS STAGE!!!!!! GURBAANI MUST BE READ AND UNDERSTOOD IN THE FULL CONTEXT.

Second day

1. Read first line

2. Read second line

2. Read the meaning

3. You will find many questions answered

After the first few days, you can start adding more lines EACH DAY (insetad of 1 per day) - cause ur mind will find it easier to assimilate.

You will find the indicators to God, what he is like (not what he is totaly..no one can describe him.

You have made the following posting and I would like to reply pointwise, just so that I dont miss out on an important point.

Before I start, let em narrate, that one summer night, when I was kid, I was lying with my father on our rooftop watching the stars. and queried him? What is God ? He thought for a minute and then gave me a reply from Japji Sahib- Page 5 of Guru Granth Sahib.

Only one a high and as great as himslef can know him.

"babbarsher not everyone believes that there is a God. I think the sikh world view accomodates for them, as well as other kinds of faiths. "

The sikhi world view is not devoid of God. Those who say against it, have not studied Guru Granth Sahib - fully or in part.

Like I said the explanation of God/or his characterstics is different, not the concept per se.

"I mean we can all learn from sikhi. Discipline, fidelity, Social Justice, Appreciation of the universe and its beauty. etc. Or even if you just want to go about your life by contemplating God all the time. "

Very true. but one must aim for completion. Khalsa in mind and body is completion

"I am unsure if we actually have a choice in the matter or if we are destined to do so. If it is a matter of destiny, then who are we to question his Will. If people are destined to live not believing there is a God. Then thats his business, isnt it? "

You are born a sikh, or You get to know about sikhi. Indicators clearly thatGod wants you to know about him. He doesnt force anyone to belive in him, love him, hate him. You are free to do whatever you want to.

An anology can be given as follows:

We are born of parents, they are made of flesh and blood and are mortals, yet even they never force you to love them. Yet 90% of us do. Why? Becuase they love us, for who we are.

God loves you for who you are. He doesnt mind what you say of him. Why should he. He is the absoloute truth and nothing compares to him.

Yet, this gives rise to a dilemma. If God loves everyone- does that mean that he loves - killers, rapists etc. ?

Try thinking about your parents - they love you, but if you do anything wrong to a person, they are usually the first ones to point out the mistake.

Please remember that if God created man - who turned into a rapist, he also created Guru Gobind Singh Ji - who brought forth Khalsa, to punish this category.

Please understand that the rapist is a manmukh. He is doing what he is doing under the influence of 'ego'.

"I dont know if accept this view so much, but if its the sikh view, i guess i should understand it at least, even if i dont agree with it. I like to think humans are capable of deciding how they wish they to lead their lives, including the choice of whether or not there is a creator. And if you decide either way, then its your personal choice and so on. "

In sikhi there are two categories- Manmukh and Gurmukh

Manmukh is one who listens to his mind and acts accordingly.

Gurmukh is one who listens to his Guru and acts accordingly.

The choice is yours, but so are the consequences. God is impartial - he has a set of rules----and those rules apply. On the physical level--those rules are manifested like Laws of Gravitation. The guide is in front of you. It is up to you to decide, whether you want to follow his advise or try groping in the dark.

When you are a Gurmukh---you follow what the Guru says. You enter a different plane---the laws dont apply---because you are doing what the true Guru is saying and you wont do something wrong. still if Maya influences sometimes, trust the Guru to take care of that.

"But then i also think if say i believe God exists, then i can believe so many other things. Like God has the ability to change my fate, and change basically anything in the system. Where the system here is our universe. Just because hes capable doesnt mean he does. And i wish to stress that my usage of hte pronoun He here does not arise from a anthropomorphic idea of God. I just think fair enough, I believe in Truth, and thats my choice. And then Truth comes to me in various ways. Mainly through intuition, but mostly when iam thinking. SO thats my choice there, to think. and understand. "

Lets take a different look at God:

Lets try to logically deduce God from a timeline-----

HomoSapiens---->Mammals---->birds-->reptiles---->aquatic life--->plants----->amoeba--->single celled-->bacteria---->virus---->DNA/RNA----------chemicals-------> chemcials came from stars-----> stars came from matter etc.-------> matter came from ------>>?????

Science doesnt have an answer to this. Forget a clear answer, they dont even give a hazy answer.

The again, doenst it sound so very hollow, if we are born, marry, reproduce, die .....................!!!!

whats the intent for leading life which is so tough on oneself ?

These are questions which are answered by Guru Granth Sahib. Pity that we never devote anytime to it.

I think there is something more than meets the eye...something beyond the obvious.

In Guru Granth Sahib all this has been called a 'play' a Khel.

Can I request you to underatke another exercise:

Please go to www.srigranth.org

Search under english for the word in quotes: "khayl"

When in doubt ask your Guru. Always go to Guru Granth Sahib and ask your question. 100% answer ensured.

Can you please read japji Sahib and we can continue this discussion.

I will in any case welcome your views.

[Guest Javanmard]

YOu are asking Judeo-Christian questions for Sikh concepts! Try first to look into why you are asking THOSE questions and not other!

[Khalistani Singh]

alrite alrite...i went to the library, i read the translations of japji sahib...basically i came across that living by the truth, is the best way of living...and that essentially god comes in us...I DONT BELIEVE IN A GOD above us, where he/she CONTROLS "EVERYTHING"...i can see why EVIL occurs, ITS BECAUSE OF MAN's MISTAKE...and God does not control us, but if we follow by the rules of God, then the world will be much better off...i dont know...im just asking a lot of questions cause i'm just trying to find sense and logic. I guess God cannot really be explained, but something one eventually learns? But i do follow the guru's teaching they make sense to me...God is in us...and whats the thing about 8.4 Million reincarnations?...etc and etc...and what happens after LIFE?...do we just die and nothing happens? I've heard that life is HEAVEN or HELL...i dont know i just found myself contemplating my beliefs for the past 2 weeks...and my parents are wondering what the heck is wrong with me...I just want to go into something that I truly understand, and not follow it blindly. Its funny to look at some people's problems, they are absolutely blown out of porporition, and if we all live by the teachings of the gurus, we wouldn't have these problems...but why don't we all see this? and what makes us into a religion?....there are so many religions how do we know which one is right for us?...and nothing "dramatic" occurs these days, but seemingly back then a lot of "Spontaenous" things occured...why not now?...all Religions work for the same goal and purpose...I guess we all find out when we die?...what happens to one who does good, but never does paht? where does he/she got after life?...

Medicines, etc cannot do anything to calm a soul, until they find truth themselves...i dont know...i think i'm just thinking too much and not living the wonderul life the guru has granted me.

[Khalistani Singh]

God is not a thing among other things, God is total thingness. To say that the table exists is the same as saying that the table is God. To say that you exist is the same as saying that you are God. God is the existence. God is isness, the quality of isness, the quality of existence...

Aren't you proving Hinduism right there? Thats why HIndus take all objects as God...WHICH SIKHI GOES TOTALLY AGAINST?....

God is not a thing among other things, God is total thingness....

Aren't you say that god is a thing again...THING...THINGNESS....

and yes if we achieve true salvation..we WOULDN't need "Evil" to have happines occur...if we always lived with no defeats in our head like the gurus have taught us...we would always be HAPPY...

[Guest Javanmard]

Ok Khalistani SIngh so you believe in an impersonal notion of the Divine instead of the personal one. That's fine Sikhi is the union of both anyway though i must say that the whole belief in an all-controling God etc.. is a Protestant influence in SIkhi.

I suggest you go through a bit of classic Mahayana Buddhist literature amd then re-read Japji Sahib. You will see that your reading will have changed completely!!!

[Khalistani Singh]

Can it just mean that God = Truth?

[Khalistani Singh]

Man im so confused...i hate being in this constant middle state...either i feel like giving up religion as a whole, or learning it to the fullest...im completely lost...and my family acts as if i've comitted a crime...they don't see the true "knowledge" i gained...oh well hmm should respect my parents eh...they do whats best for u!

[Dynamic_Banda]

hehehe the middle state is the best place to be

god neither exists neither doesnt..

no good no bad

just truth..

Now you are on my wave length....

[Guest]

i feel like giving up religion as a whole

Bad choice.

or learning it to the fullest

The way to go.

[Khalistani Singh]

http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/articles.ns...4a!OpenDocument

...great article...

[Dynamic_Banda]

lol see the middle path of both extremes its the perfect limbo once u get to accept it..

i would say in giving it up you will learn it to its fullest..

[Khalistani Singh]

another great article...

http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/articles.ns...!OpenDocument...

i've never read harbhajan yogi's scriptures, but they seem to make sense...

if ya want more...go here...http://www.sikhnet.com/Articles

Gurfateh

[Khalistani Singh]

thank you, but i'm normal again lol...WOO HOO...I FEEL LIBERATEDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD...KHALISTAN ZINDABAD! lol...

FATEH

[BabbarSher]

Singh Ji..thodi patience rakhiya karo....

I dint ask yo u to read Japji sahib and understand it in a single day ..

Anyway good that you are back to normal :-)

[Mr §ingh]

MAN! I'm alsways late :cry:

Btw Khalistani Bhaji

the link above doesn't work - the artyicles by Yogi Bhajan does, but not the other one

bhull chukk maaf

[BabbarSher]

yeah this time I beat you to it Mr.Singh..otherwise its me whos always late ;-) hee hee

[Ideal Singh]

Nice insight BabbarShera... Keep it up...

[Morpheous]

Someone once said this to me

Harpreet: 'prove the existance of god !'

Uncle: (Smiles) - ' you are a funny boy, well, tell me one thing HARpreet, do you exist?'

Harpreet:(Confused expression on his face) - 'well yes, of course'

Uncle: So you also agree that in order for you to exist there must be a existance ?

Harpreet: (still baffled) - well yes i suppose

Uncle: (Smiles again) - the existance is sometimes known as HAR ............... HAR - some people refer to that as god too - in fact - your name has HAR in it .

I dont know what you guys make of that but to me it made perfect sense.

Gurfateh

PS please forgive me for my silly comments - as i am clinically thick