Harmless Posted June 3, 2004 Report Share Posted June 3, 2004 Harmless Jee, Havent all religious peoples committed these same sins? Wasnt it even worse what the European peoples did in the name of Christianity in places like Mexico/South America, the Middle East (Crusades) and even in their own continent? Jahan jee, Both of these semitic religions have been spread through force. Which one is worse? Both religions are masters of conversion through terror and in the 21st century masters of psychological brain washing. Christianity however has reformed a great deal, Islam on the other hand has not. can we legitimately say that hard core Islamic indoctrination has destroyed nature, violated human rights of millions to self exist, destroyed secularism and democracy? Yep, Muslims have done this, but so have Christians and Hindus (Hindus to their own kind..). Jews have never had the strength in numbers but what do you think 'Gods chosen people' are capable of doing to 'non-believers' given their religious beliefs? Muslims, Christians, Hindus and including Jews have done it. As for Hindus, one can argue that none of the scriptures prescribe violence for example th genocide of the Sikhs in 1984. After lot of thinking and debating with other like minded people, I have come to the conclusion, YES! the the root to the Islamic terror is Islam but but as for the Hindus, it is their own complexes, since the slaves tasted their freedom in secular India, they have become intent on wiping eveyone else out in which case it the greed and ego that is the root of their intolerance and malevolence. Is the genocide in Palestine racial or religious? Both perhaps? Both 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harmless Posted June 3, 2004 Report Share Posted June 3, 2004 Ps, I respect the opinion and views of 'Harmless' but i cant help to notice the bias against Muslims in all discussions we have had (See our discussion on Punjab's partition under my old ID - 'Punjabi Nationalist') Jahan jee, you respect my views because there exists evidence of truth. As for bias against muslims, Oh please...... Am I suppose to call a spade a fork, would that please you or appease you? I don't condemn people, I condemn violence, intolerace, blind faith, and lies and unfortunately radical Islam happens to practice and represent all that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 3, 2004 Report Share Posted June 3, 2004 As for Hindus, one can argue that none of the scriptures prescribe violence for example th genocide of the Sikhs in 1984. I have come across (on the internet) something called 'Laws of Manu' which documents on how 'upper castes' must punish Sudras/Dalits for a number of different scenarios. Of course, these 'laws' may not be authentic or could be complete fabrications. After lot of thinking and debating with other like minded people, I have come to the conclusion, YES! the the root to the Islamic terror is Islam Ok. We both disagree and are not going to change our views. So we can leave it at that :wink: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orchids Posted June 5, 2004 Report Share Posted June 5, 2004 may i ask what jahan means? or does it stand for shah jahan? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Posted June 5, 2004 Report Share Posted June 5, 2004 ^ He said in another thread that it stands for 'the world', ie duniyan. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orchids Posted June 5, 2004 Report Share Posted June 5, 2004 we kicked moghuls off their feet:) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 5, 2004 Report Share Posted June 5, 2004 may i ask what jahan means? 'Jahan' simply means 'World' in Punjabi and Persian languages. or does it stand for shah jahan? If i had wanted to call myself 'King of the World' over the net then i would have made the screen name 'Shah Jahan'... Dont tell me you now associate the word 'Jahan' with Islam. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orchids Posted June 5, 2004 Report Share Posted June 5, 2004 okies when i msgd u i asked why u wanted 2 convert... if u dont mind me asking why did u want to convert? because of ur peers? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sikh princess Posted June 6, 2004 Report Share Posted June 6, 2004 Jahan Veer You are right that others religions have also done violent acts to others as well as between themselves. But what people are saying is that these religions apart from Islam have reformed themselves. The Catholic Church has a history of apologising for things that it did in various parts of the world. It has apologised and expressed regret for what happened in the Americas, as well as its part in the crusades. I have yet to see any Islamic organisaation express regret for what Islam did around the world. What of an apologise, these organisations have not even admitted that anything wrong was done by Islam! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tSingh Posted June 6, 2004 Report Share Posted June 6, 2004 Truthseeker wrote; The real problem is that muslims rarely openly admit, that some of their brethren do wrong, like I was told how the CIA did 9-11 or the berg video is a fake. But then you get also those who are actually in favor of such things. Islam got some serious proplems I've seen exactly the same from avowed Khalistan supporters! Baba Monchahal for example killed off other karkoo who posed a threat to him during his attempt to make Tarn Taran his little fiefdom. Babbar Khalsa kidnapped and decapitated the head of A.I.R Patiala. Yet, I've been with Singhs who talk of truth and living truth, and yet laud such praise on these people! What about stopping a bus, taking off the hindu passengers and shooting them all? How many innocent sikhs and hindus were killed. Is this sikhi? I recall even reading on another sikh youth forum a 'singh' who agreed that 9/11 was very effective and successful! Now the irony is, that to those avowed khalistanis, I MUST have a hidden agenda for identifying these examples of when 'sikhs' acted in a non-sikh way!!! The same mentality exists among muslims which is that you criticise one you criticise all, no matter what they did! I've seen Sikhs deny such events took place...likewise I've seen Muslims deny terrorist events took place...I've seen facists deny the death camps...etc 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 6, 2004 Report Share Posted June 6, 2004 spot on jtsingh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 6, 2004 Report Share Posted June 6, 2004 okies when i msgd u i asked why u wanted 2 convert... if u dont mind me asking why did u want to convert? because of ur peers? Im not too keen on discussing now but because you did make efforts to get in touch with me i will say this. Sikhism is something i have embraced upon myself. It is not the religion of my parents, grandparents or great parents. Great great grandfather was a Sikh and his younger brother was a baptised 'Singh'. I find it difficult to explain but basically Khatri families (Sikh-Hindu, Punjabi) seem to easily revert between the two faiths. There is no issue of marriage between the two religious groups or (for the Hindu Khatris) adoption of the others religious customs and traditions. For example, my father and two of his brothers had their naming ceremony according to Sikh tradition, hence they all have Sikh names. My father probably would be a Sikh himself had it not been for politcal/other fallouts/disturbances while he was growing up. (As a young kid he either witnessed the brutal murder or saw the aftermath inside a Gurdwara...) Anyway... As far as being a Sikh goes i've done it all by my own initiative (learning about the faith, going Gurdwara, learning prayers, adopting physical appearance etc). Now, when you get no support or encouragement for what you do, and instead you get put down infront of your face, give up things you enjoyed doing, coupled with rough patches in life, why do you bother carrying on with an uphill struggle? Whether it is fair to myself or to other Sikhs or not, i cant help to feel sometimes that past few years i really have wasted. What could have been best years of my life (socially) i threw away in a sense by adpoting a religion. Recently im gone back into bad habbits so have failed really at what i started out on. Islam is very appealling to me for reasons i choose not to share and yes i have many Muslim friends who have made this interest possible. To you this may look like brainwashing of someone who is not in a right state of mind but to me, you have to know me to know why i am not being brainwashed or anything. It is just an interest, which can lead to more if i want it. As far as my converting, it has not happened. Instead i started to attend Gurdwara again after some persuasion from collegues of mine i have met online and from one girl who i know from my local Gurdwara. Whatever i grew to dislike about Sikhs previously is not really an issue now and actually i feel good being around Sikhs. Sikhism im still convinced is the most practical, logical and tolerant faith that exists in this World. Not sure what else to add... Im just sorry if it offends anyone but despite saying the above i have not lost any interest in Islam. However there are some good-hearted people here who have made me realize not to just give up or base my judgements on non-issues. Why i have re-joined this forum now is because of that reason. I am someone who has learned alot from this site and i am not ashamed to say it. Infact i am coming to rely on this site as my only real contact with Sikhs since there are none in my everyday life... I have yet to see any Islamic organisaation express regret for what Islam did around the world. What of an apologise, these organisations have not even admitted that anything wrong was done by Islam! Ok, i agree with that. But, i equally agree with jtSingh's post... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orchids Posted June 6, 2004 Report Share Posted June 6, 2004 Im not too keen on discussing now but because you did make efforts to get in touch with me i will say this. Sikhism is something i have embraced upon myself. It is not the religion of my parents, grandparents or great parents. Great great grandfather was a Sikh and his younger brother was a baptised 'Singh'. I find it difficult to explain but basically Khatri families (Sikh-Hindu, Punjabi) seem to easily revert between the two faiths. There is no issue of marriage between the two religious groups or (for the Hindu Khatris) adoption of the others religious customs and traditions. For example, my father and two of his brothers had their naming ceremony according to Sikh tradition, hence they all have Sikh names. My father probably would be a Sikh himself had it not been for politcal/other fallouts/disturbances while he was growing up. (As a young kid he either witnessed the brutal murder or saw the aftermath inside a Gurdwara...) Anyway... As far as being a Sikh goes i've done it all by my own initiative (learning about the faith, going Gurdwara, learning prayers, adopting physical appearance etc). Now, when you get no support or encouragement for what you do, and instead you get put down infront of your face, give up things you enjoyed doing, coupled with rough patches in life, why do you bother carrying on with an uphill struggle? Whether it is fair to myself or to other Sikhs or not, i cant help to feel sometimes that past few years i really have wasted. What could have been best years of my life (socially) i threw away in a sense by adpoting a religion. Recently im gone back into bad habbits so have failed really at what i started out on. Islam is very appealling to me for reasons i choose not to share and yes i have many Muslim friends who have made this interest possible. To you this may look like brainwashing of someone who is not in a right state of mind but to me, you have to know me to know why i am not being brainwashed or anything. It is just an interest, which can lead to more if i want it. As far as my converting, it has not happened. Instead i started to attend Gurdwara again after some persuasion from collegues of mine i have met online and from one girl who i know from my local Gurdwara. Whatever i grew to dislike about Sikhs previously is not really an issue now and actually i feel good being around Sikhs. Sikhism im still convinced is the most practical, logical and tolerant faith that exists in this World. Not sure what else to add... Im just sorry if it offends anyone but despite saying the above i have not lost any interest in Islam. However there are some good-hearted people here who have made me realize not to just give up or base my judgements on non-issues. Why i have re-joined this forum now is because of that reason. I am someone who has learned alot from this site and i am not ashamed to say it. Infact i am coming to rely on this site as my only real contact with Sikhs since there are none in my everyday life... Ok, i agree with that. But, i equally agree with jtSingh's post... i understand even i have been looked down upon by sikhs....... but i wouldnt convert to another religion..... i have no friends because all they do is backstab you... the sikhs that i know they believe in caste and say i am a low caste but i cannot really call them sikhs since they follow caste.. what have ur muslim friends said 2 u that made u want to convert? which words of wisdom have they put across to you that made you want to convert? which bad habits have u gone back 2? i can only assume gambling or smoking but i wont make any judgements... you are a human being are in control of ur life and u have the option to turn it around.... wjkk wjkf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guv Posted June 6, 2004 Report Share Posted June 6, 2004 i just wanted to say jahan... each person's journey of discovery & relationship with akaal is completely individual. it goes beyond allying yourself with the terms 'sikhism'/'islam'... why be constrained within artificial constructs. forge your own path based on where your heart leads u. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sukhi Posted June 7, 2004 Report Share Posted June 7, 2004 i agree with guv. don't chain urself down with labels. find your own road to eternity. i have no friends because all they do is backstab you... the sikhs that i know they believe in caste and say i am a low caste but i cannot really call them sikhs since they follow caste.. i wouldn't call them sikhs either. why don't u find ppl who'll support u in Sikhi without looking at ur caste? why don't you try to make friends with ppl who may not necessarily be sikh but will support ur endeavours anyways? because not everyone in the world is a backstabber... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orchids Posted June 7, 2004 Report Share Posted June 7, 2004 i agree with guv. don't chain urself down with labels. find your own road to eternity. i wouldn't call them sikhs either. why don't u find ppl who'll support u in Sikhi without looking at ur caste? why don't you try to make friends with ppl who may not necessarily be sikh but will support ur endeavours anyways? because not everyone in the world is a backstabber... where i live they r mostly like that friends jeolous bohat hote hai lor nahin hai ziyada friend mera friend waheguru hai 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sukhi Posted June 7, 2004 Report Share Posted June 7, 2004 righty-o. but even when u've got God as ur friend, u still need to live in this world and make friends with other humans. it's a part of life... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 7, 2004 Report Share Posted June 7, 2004 what have ur muslim friends said 2 u that made u want to convert? Without going into much detail i have had a number of discussions on religion with some of my Muslim friends. There are a number of things i can say are just, 'fascinating'. These are things which i myself will look more into rather than just blindly convert because of what someone else told me about Islam. However, Islam is very deep and when people talk about the 'wondrous miracles' of the Qur'an, it appears as though they are not lying. Things which could only have been revealed from God given that it would have been impossible for Prophet Mohammed to have known about them. He himself is said to have been an illiterate. How he managed to compose the Qur'an then is somewhat of a 'miracle' i suppose in itself. I am told the Qur'an contains details on the sperm and egg cells, how human beings are born etc. You know there is just so much but i am not going to accept or dismiss anything until i find out about it for myself. My belief in God and the truth is the major reason for my interest in religion. Bad patches in life and being close to Muslims has brought me to what Islam offers. i just wanted to say jahan... each person's journey of discovery & relationship with akaal is completely individual. it goes beyond allying yourself with the terms 'sikhism'/'islam'... why be constrained within artificial constructs. forge your own path based on where your heart leads u. I agree with what you are saying, but in my experience there is only so much you can learn through books etc you also learn through experience and contact with other people. I have no mentor or anyone to look upto so i have come to rely on myself. Its become more-or-less a dead end for me. There is only so much you can do for yourself, know what i mean? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orchids Posted June 7, 2004 Report Share Posted June 7, 2004 they r seriously trying 2 convert u ur forgetting they call us none believers!!!!!!!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orchids Posted June 7, 2004 Report Share Posted June 7, 2004 righty-o. but even when u've got God as ur friend, u still need to live in this world and make friends with other humans. it's a part of life... all friends do is get jeolous and stuff.. id rather not have any one or two here and there is okies but some ppl go places a lot with their friends this is out of line!!!!!!!! u cant trust no1 these days all me friends have decieved me.. soo why bother :twisted: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sukhi Posted June 7, 2004 Report Share Posted June 7, 2004 well u gotta be careful with who u trust. if u trust the wrong ppl, u'll get deception an backbiting and whole lot of craptacular things. but even if u trust someone after takin ur time to feel them out, they may end up bein untrustworthy, but tha's still not enough of a reason to not trust ppl... remember chile, u gotta live in the real world while tryin to get to the eternal one. can't completely turn ur back on the world. cuz if u do, the world might turn its back on u. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harmless Posted June 8, 2004 Report Share Posted June 8, 2004 i just wanted to say jahan... each person's journey of discovery & relationship with akaal is completely individual. it goes beyond allying yourself with the terms 'sikhism'/'islam'... why be constrained within artificial constructs. forge your own path based on where your heart leads u. Guv, you are misleading and confusing the issue here. Jahan, forge your path which will liberate you, the path of Love, the path of truth, that is Sikhism! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guv Posted June 8, 2004 Report Share Posted June 8, 2004 Guv, you are misleading and confusing the issue here. how so? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harmless Posted June 10, 2004 Report Share Posted June 10, 2004 i just wanted to say jahan... each person's journey of discovery & relationship with akaal is completely individual. it goes beyond allying yourself with the terms 'sikhism'/'islam'... why be constrained within artificial constructs. forge your own path based on where your heart leads u. Guv, It is clear from brother Jahan’s posts that he is somewhat confused about Sikhism, otherwise he would not be considering any other paths. He is confused about Sikhi, but his posts suggest very clearly that he has a yearning to learn about Sikhism. Rather than helping him to learn about the most fair, logical and a scientific truth, which is Sikhi, you are doing him no favours by suggesting that he must follow his heart, you are misleading and creating further confusion. My friend by suggesting to Jahan that it is OK to choose the path, you is doing him a disservice and injustice. Jahan brother needs to learn about Sikhism. As a Sikh (learner) Jahan must also educate himself in his religion which is Sikhi and about other paths too. Jahan brother needs support and mentoring and lot of contact with good genuine Sikhs who can be a strong support mechanism for him. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guv Posted June 11, 2004 Report Share Posted June 11, 2004 my view is that the path to akaal is through unconditional love, whether someone finds that through sikhi, islam, another religion or no religion. i guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this issue. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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