Guest Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 Check out this site: http://www.whyichosesikhism.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amrikingh Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 good site Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 The site shows onbly but insecurity and acute ignorance of Islam. Interesting to see that Muslims don't have the equivalent site. From my personal experience I can say that I have seen a lot of veiled Muslim women being treated with more respect by Muslim men then a lot of our "free" Sikh kurian. Sorry guys the site is just not convincing and the "fallacies" against Islam can be reduced to ashes by any properly trained 'alim. You're going to have to try harder! The site would have been justified in condemning Wahabis and their behaviour which is un-Islamic but to boast about once own faith at the expense of others is not right. You might say: But they do it! And Guru Gobind SIngh answers: I want my Panth to be noble and to be above petiness! Let's stop hiding oursleves from the reality: if people chose Islam it's not always because some guy put drugs in a drink or seduced a girl. We persecute our scholars, we destroy our heritage, we destroy kirtan, we shorten gurbani and we kill our daughters: answer me now HOW WOULD ANY HUMAN BEING NOT HAVE PROBLEMS WITH THAT AND LOOK SOMEWHERE ELSE! I choose SIkhi not because I compare it to Islam but because my Gurus were exeptional beings who embraced :wink: all Prophets, avatars and saints... yes the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) as well..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niranjana Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 Gur Fateh! Interesting and thoughtful points Lalleshvari, just a quick question, did you mean "my Gurus were exeptional beings who EMBRASSED all Prophets, avatars and saints" or 'embraced'? Just checking as when speed reading it does look like 'embarassed' which would have the opposite effect of what I would imagine you are trying to say? Or have I got it all wrong? Dear Forum: Please can we consider the points raised by Lalleshvari (re: We persecute our scholars, we destroy our heritage, we destroy kirtan, we shorten gurbani and we kill our daughters) as these are points that have previously been mentioned in a variety of posts, however no objective discussion has been forthcoming...yet we continue to see many concerning anti-sikh propaganda and others... ...as the Punjabi saying goes, (rendered in English), it's often better to sweep under one's own bed before looking at others...how about we try this, given that this is one of few remaining mature and censor-free Sikh forums thesedays... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 I absolutely vomit this site: Of you want to destroy Sunni and Wahabi arguments then go to the proper site for that: www.answering-ansar.org/ the site is pure steel no Sunni and no Wahabi can resist! I just spoke yesterday to a very learned Shia cleric who happens to be my friend and we agreed that we need to unite to fight against Wahabis as we have done in the past fighting against Aurangzeb!!! Attack Wahabis: yes :twisted: Defile Islam: NO!!!! :evil: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Punjabi Nationalist Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 "Punjabi culture views women as inferior, believes it is good to drink hard and puts full faith in the caste system. It's unfortunate that so many people have not been able to break away from Punjabi culture to embrace the beauty of Sikhism." The clown who wrote this is obviously totally oblivious to Punjabi culture. Would explain why the same old picture of some white girl in a turban has found a special place on the front page of this website. Clearly, this person is ashamed of being a Punjabi and would rather identify with confused white folk who wear male garments. lallesharvi is also right about this site displaying nothing but insecurity and ignorance of Islam. Some of the stuff on this site is so poor (and corny) that even i feel embarrassed for the person who wrote it. Things like: "Well, basically i was born in a typical panjabi family. My dads a mona, clean shaven and all that. My MuM wasn't interested in religion that much." RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT. This is a "typical Punjabi" family? LOL LOL LOL. Great way to generalize a race of over 100,000,000 people. (Not). Typical UK immigrant Sikh family from Jalandhar or East Africa maybe, even thats probably stretching it.... "7. A Muslim converting somebody, will never tell the person the whole story. For example when converting men they always leave out the part about having to be circumcised to become Muslim. After all what man would want half of his genitals cut off." I dont know about this guy but for me (and im sure 99% of other men) foreskin does not equal "half" my genitalia. "The new method that they are employing is to change their names by deed poll to Mohan Singh and Balraj Singh , they add surnames on to Gill and Hayer are two of there favorites." "Gill" and "Hayer" are not "Sikh" names and can be carried by any Punjabi from the region these names originate from. There are plenty of surnames (eg Chaudhary, Cheema, Sandhu, Saini, Bhatti, Butt, Anwar, Rai, Khatri, Arora, Sidhu, Soni, Ahluwalia) which can be found belonging to Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus, even Christians of Punjab.... Pathetic that these people who 'know so much' about the ills of Islam and Punjabi culture will then turn around and steal Punjabi surnames and stamp them as being exclusive to "Sikhs". But watch out guys!!! You may end up marrying someone called "Gill" who is not a real "Gill" he just spent 100 bucks to change his name just so that he could spend another 500 bucks on a return flight to Pakistan just so that he could convert you then dump you back in some hotel in England!!!!!!! This my friends, is the TRUE ISLAM! Spend half a grand to sleep with a Sikh girl in Pakistan then ditch her back in England. Wow wow.... There is plenty more on this site, but its not worth it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 I have interacted with Muslims all my life, I know MUslim clerics, Sufi masters and even ayatollahs, one of them being a good friend who calles me brother: none of them have ever tried to convert me!!! And I am talking here about the highest authorities!!!! The Wahabis who did try were forced to realise that they had no chance because I knew Islam better than them!!!! Al Muhajiroun and HT are not Islam: they are just a bunge of Wahabi heretics and anyone who has a bit of knowledge about Islam knows that aprt perhaps from those who consider their own little neighbourhood to be the world.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hari Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 Well, the website already has committed a sin against Sikhi of Satguru Nanak Nirankar.Here is the veidence: http://www.whyichosesikhism.com/?p=answers&ans=3 On panna 1350, Satguru Granth Sahib tells us "Baed Kataeb kaho mat jhoothay jhootaa jo naa bichaarai" which means, "Call the Vedas and the Semitic scriptures FALSE teachings, false is that person who does not reflect". The sin of deliberate mistranslation.The above Gurbani should be properly translated as: Do not call Veda and Kateb false, false are they who do not contemplate [on them]. mat = stop, do not So it is do not call them false, not call them false. Whats all this about?Why does the website twist the meaning of this Gurbani by mis-translating Gurbani??Don't they know they will have to "enjoy" Narak because of this deliberate mis-translating? Idiots. :evil: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amrikingh Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 send them an email about it hari Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Punjabi Nationalist Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 I have interacted with Muslims all my life, I know MUslim clerics, Sufi masters and even ayatollahs, one of them being a good friend who calles me brother: none of them have ever tried to convert me!!! And I am talking here about the highest authorities!!!! The Wahabis who did try were forced to realise that they had no chance because I knew Islam better than them!!!! Al Muhajiroun and HT are not Islam: they are just a bunge of Wahabi heretics and anyone who has a bit of knowledge about Islam knows that aprt perhaps from those who consider their own little neighbourhood to be the world.... I hear you man. I live in a place where there a plenty of Mosques not too far from eachother. A good number of my friends are Muslim. I have spent nights in the homes of Muslims. I have never once been pressured or persuaded to convert to Islam. Sad how people can so blindly assume that Muslims are all of one mind and have nothing else going for them except wanting to sleep with Sikh girls and convert people to Islam. What a sick joke. These rumour and propaganda spreaders should be ashamed of themselves for claiming to be defenders of Sikhs and Sikhism. More like they are defending broken pride when a Sikh girl they had a crush got friendly with a Muslim guy... Not everyone is religious and should be judged by how you think Sikhs should act. As it is said, 'Live and let live'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hari Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 This site is full of mis-translations and misleading interpretations. http://www.whyichosesikhism.com/?p=answers&ans=4 SGGS over and over stresses the importance of "Gurmat Naam". Without Gurmat Naam no one can find Akaal or reach sachkhand. Gurmat naam is only available in the house of Guru Nanak: "Nanak kai ghar keval, naam" . Keval means "only". They have completely misinterpreted this too.It is: In the House of Nanak, there is only Naam. This is yet another deliberate misleading interpretation by them.These people are trying to mislead the ignorant Sikh youths.It is plain to see. The blind lead the blind.If the above quote were how they have interpreted it, it would be: Keval Nanak kai ghar Naam. But it isn't, it is: Nanak kai ghar keval Naam. Idiots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Punjabi Nationalist Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 Thank you Hari for exposing this site. My knowledge on Sikhism is limited to basics at best altho i had my suspicions about these quotes. You are doing good work brother!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hari Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 More diarrhoea, looks these pople have the sh**s: http://www.whyichosesikhism.com/?p=answers&ans=10 As for bhagat-baaNee being from "Muslims and Hindus", it's a proven fact by the likes of Giani Gurdit Singh in his books and others that the Bhagats, under the leadership of Ramanand jee all became Sikhs of Guru Nanak after meeting him. The Fareed in BaaNee is the descendant of the first and this is borne out by the fact that the language used is not 12th century but contemporary to Guru Nanak. Giani Gurdit Singh's book is very big and contains a lot of proof about the Bhagats being Sikhs, but two important points are that the oldest books ie. Goindvaal Pothees refer to the bhagats as "Bhagat Babay Kay" or Bhagats of the Baba (Nanak). Also, the Bhagat's Banee in SGGS is not found in their own collections. Ie. Kabeer's baaNee in SGGS is not found in his Beejak. The BaaNee they recited after becoming Sikhs is the one in SGGS and not found in their original collections. The belief that Guru Granth Sahib contains any passages from other religious texts or translations of them is TOTALLY FALSE. We challenge anyone to find such a passage in Sree Guru Granth Sahib. Gurmat rejects all other religious texts, so why would it include passages from them? This site is full of evidence that they are misleading the vunerable and ignorant Sikh youth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 It is very interesting to see the similarity between AKJ and Wahabis in their misleeding translations of the Qur'an and gurbani, in their invention of traditions that were never there before, their revisionism and the pernitious lies they invent against all those who practice the real orthodox and unadulterated form of Sikhi and Islam respectively. They really deserve each other! It pains me to see so many brainwashed, young and angry souls running like that towards hell fire for profanating our sacred traditions! May Maharaj open their hearts to his love and compassion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niranjana Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 GUR FATEH! Team, great work on looking further on this matter. Punjabi Nationalist, your comments are spot on regarding Punjabi Culture and how true Punjabiyat is rarely found thesedays, although the Sarabi-Kababi Mona-Jatt, Trim-Singh Tarkhan pseudo culture is deemed to be reflective of Punjabiyat! I am familiar with this notion of critising a ill-conceived notion of Punjabiyat through the preaching in the UK and US Sikh Societies (in the first instance, groups usually affliated with BOSS, SP and AKJ being the main propagators)...your comments regarding the 3HO women in a white turban is so so true!!! Hari, keep up the great work, about time that we actually struck out against these misuse of Gurbani translations (the Sarbat Soora Dastaar Sira is another Shabd usually twisted totally out of context, as is the translation of the Fateh and meaning of the term Khalsa to mention a few key examples of other offenders)... ...as per Giani Ditt Singh's work and subsequent impact on the Sikh diaspora...this is a subject we should really look into!!! This 'let's make up Sikhi as we go along' is getting more and more ridiculous, the more one looks beyond the standard 'it is good to be simple' preaching in Gurdwaras, pakhand kirtan and Singh Sabha literature et al... GUR BAR AKAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLL!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satanz_Child Posted February 25, 2004 Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 this site is a TOTAL EMBARASSMENT !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akali Sirtor Singh Khalsa Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 I would just like to point out, this site was not made by anyone associated with AKJ and in fact was made by non group and some taksalis. All they wanted to do was do some good and bring about awareness in the youth. Any bashing of islam is restricted to ONLY facts and quotes from the quaran from various sources. This was well researched by the 20 or so individuals involved. It seems you guys can do nothing but criticize seva instead of doing it yourselves. If you have something to say, why bash a panthic, seva site like that? why not just email them and say, hey you made a mistake, just to help you out you should fix this. Instead you bash the creators, you go on to bash other jathebandis that have nothing to do with it, and then you go on to bash the singhnee in the pic who also has nothing to do with the site. You guys continue to impress me. If you have a problem with the fallacies site you can talk to the authors who wrote books on the subject, the islamic scholars it quotes etc.. islam has a lot to hide and without being a muslim, you will never know of these things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 1.Akali Sirtor SIngh wrote: islam has a lot to hide and without being a muslim, you will never know of these things. Does that mean you are a Muslim? If yes can you tell me, you who knows all the secrets of Islam, who was the real successor of the Holy Prophet (pbuh)? was it Abu Bakr or was it Imam Ali (as)? Oh, you knower of the Hidden, who seems to think that slandering other religions is panthic seva, could you please answer the question? 2. can you tell me where the creators learnt Arabic, fiqh and irfan? From whom did they learn it from? Which school of fiqh are you referring to in the website? Why do you not mention the Jaferiya? 3. why is there so much female infanticide in the Sikh community if Sikhs respect women? 4. What is the difference between putting a hijab and wearing a dastar for a woman? 5. Which collection of hadith are you using? Why aren't you using al-Kafi? I humbly ask for answers as I do not know much about Islam and you seem to know all the hidden aspects of it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akali Sirtor Singh Khalsa Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 first off .. I have nothing to do with this site, you sure are smart. why dont u contact the people who made it if you have a problem? or are you too high and mighty? 1) i am not a muslim, imam ali was the true successor. 2) jalalan is mentioned 3) no sikh commits female infanticide, punjabis do.. anybody who does will go to hell and is not a sikh. 4) im not even going to answer this. this is the stupidest thing I have ever been asked. literally. 5) i didnt make the site, dont ask me this is my last reply on this subject because i just cant stand stupidity. if someone is being stupid I just start to cringe.. and if u make me cringe enough, my handgun comes out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhai Sahib Posted February 27, 2004 Report Share Posted February 27, 2004 Unfortunately Hari it is you who is completely incorrect. For example when you state: Quote: SGGS over and over stresses the importance of "Gurmat Naam". Without Gurmat Naam no one can find Akaal or reach sachkhand. Gurmat naam is only available in the house of Guru Nanak: "Nanak kai ghar keval, naam" . Keval means "only. They have completely misinterpreted this too.It is: In the House of Nanak, there is only Naam." Since for starters your translation of that thuk is complete manmat, how can you say that in Guru Nanak's house there is only naam. How can there be nothing else other than naam. What abour Gurshabad, seva, amrit etc etc. The translation on the site is correct if you place the bisram (pause) in the thuk in the right place i.e. Nanak ke ghar keval, Naam. Therefore the direct translation is Nanak's house is only, Naam when put gramitcally it becomes Only in Nanak's house is Naam. Your manmat translation comes in if you incorrectly place the bisram as follows: Nanak ke ghar, keval Naam. Hopefully you now see the difference. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mod note: Edited rest of the post due to your personal views. Stick to topic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manny Posted February 28, 2004 Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 Akali Sirtor Singh Khalsa Sahib Excellent replies and you are spot on about some individuals here whose sole aim in life seems to be criticise anyone trying to do some panthic sewa. Lalleshvari If you are so knowledgeable why aren't you at the forefront writing articles against the wahabis?. Your claim that one needs to know arabic irfan. don't know what the fiqh that means!. you should go into the mosques and question all the mulsims there are if they don't have knowledge of these things then you should declare them false muslims and try and throw them out of the mosque. But your sole aim here is nindya of Gursikhs. Karan wale thore nindya karan wale jaade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 28, 2004 Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 Actually manny, you should be ashamed of calling them gursikhs. If they were guroo da sikhs they wouldnt have created section fallacies against islam. There was no need for that. There is a fine line between showing pride you have and belitting other's faith. Whats a sikh now?? An fanatic, who would go to any level belittle other's faith. By creating that site, they are no different than those bigoted rss hindu websites creators or those wahabis extermist websites creators. Yes, its true i m the one who made this post but i never looked that section before i made a post here. I can clearly see the days where sikhs of soo called western countries came up the sikhi concept of kafirs(unbeleivers)...anyways thats all i have to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hari Posted February 28, 2004 Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 In reply to Bhai Sahib Ji, Since for starters your translation of that thuk is complete manmat, how can you say that in Guru Nanak's house there is only naam. How can there be nothing else other than naam. What abour Gurshabad, seva, amrit etc etc. -Naam = Gurshabad, seva, simran, Amrit etc.All things come from Naam.This whole world comes form Naam.You know that.You are being too literalist, like a Muslim or Christian literalist.It is the literalists in any mystic tradition who bring about destruction of Truth. According to your keen observation I am a manmat.Fine, whatever makes you happy.You may accuse me of being anything.Aslong as you are happy my friend. The translation on the site is correct if you place the bisram (pause) in the thuk in the right place i.e. Nanak ke ghar keval, Naam. Therefore the direct translation is Nanak's house is only, Naam when put gramitcally it becomes Only in Nanak's house is Naam. Your manmat translation comes in if you incorrectly place the bisram as follows: Nanak ke ghar, keval Naam. I am sorry, but I will beg to differ.I do not accept your pause in this Gurbani tuk.It is: Nanak kai ghar keval Naam(In the House of Nanak, there in only Naam).You have not changed my belief in that. Hopefully you now see the difference. Ofcourse, the difference between my perception and your perception is clear to see.That still doesn’t mean I accept your opinion. We will have to agree to disagree. Stay happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 28, 2004 Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 Also got this from this singh. Actually what he wrote, pretty much wraps everything: Great website, but you guys need to be careful not to sink to the same level as those people who are maligning our faith. The whole "fallacies of Islam" heading just doesn't seem right to me. After all, we shouldn't really be passing judgment on the merits of other faiths. By doing so, we end up coming across as being just as intolerant. I think we are better served by focusing and exemplifying the beauty of our faith more instead...after all how would we like it if a prominent website were to have a section on the "fallacies of Sikhism?" Even if such website did exist, which I'm sure it does, it doesn't mean we have to stoop to the same level as them...surely we are better than that, no? Also, I think it?s important to note that Islam is a religion of over a billion people. The website should be tailored to where it makes it more clearer that it is designed as a response to the actions of a minority of those in the Muslim community who have chosen to engage in this misleading propaganda rather than the ENTIRE Islamic faith. I know many Muslims who are in fact very peaceful, loving, and tolerant. Even with the current disclaimer, I could see how it still could come across as offensive ... In short, we shouldn't ostracize an entire faith, which I believe the website could conceivably be construed as, based on the actions of a few. Not everything in Islam is "bad," either as our Guru?s certainly felt that there must have something worthy by including the writings of Muslim saints in the Guru Granth Sahib. All in all, a job well done, but please take into account some of the constructive criticism that I have provided here. Apologies in advance if I've offended anyone. -Gurfateh They should take out fallacies against islam. If they want their website to get anywhere. I post that website on various desi message boards for punjabi youths. Minute they saw fallacies in islam its just puts them off not only from the site but also from soo called "amrit-dhari" sikhs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr §ingh Posted February 28, 2004 Report Share Posted February 28, 2004 If they were guroo da sikhs they wouldnt have created section fallacies against islam. There was no need for that. Its GOod to know if your discussing with a Muslim, and he tries to push down SIkhism - Yes you should go down to their level however, whilst in discussion if they question you , you can question their faith, and not just stand there completly silent thinking Islam is perfect ... Hence SO many Sikhs getting converted :roll: Agree with Akali Sirtor Singh's 3 & 4th point COMPLETLY! 3) no sikh commits female infanticide, punjabis do.. anybody who does will go to hell and is not a sikh. 4) im not even going to answer this. this is the stupidest thing I have ever been asked. literally. Minute they saw fallacies in islam its just puts them off not only from the site but also from soo called "amrit-dhari" sikhs. Might be cause MOST Desi board consist mainly of Muslims let me post that On bhangra-sounds..lets see their feedback Bhull chukk maaf GurFAteh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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