Why i choose sikhism??

[Bhai Sahib]

Mod note: Edited rest of the post due to your personal views. Stick to topic

This is one way to keep a discussion one sided. I find it very hard to believe that you can class my views as personnel but those of others as not so.

Is it not a personnel view when it is stated that Gurbani is misquoted without justification or that those who have set up the site are wrong or that islam is a fantastic religion or that this site is misleading the youth!!!

So what is wrong in me saying that if you want to see Gurbani mis-quoted or an attempt to destroy the youth you need go no further than to http://www.shastarvidiya.org/htmls/home.html.

I presume this post will be edited or deleted again since it provides a logical argument against the falisies being propogated.

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Mod Note: Bhai Sahib: We can't allow Nihang VS AKj anymore and this is the reason we have edited your personal views where you were going to bring Nihangs website just to divert this whole thread into AKJ vs Nihangs. And you should be aware of this that you had more in your personal views not just what you have mentioned. If you are so concerned about mis-quotation then bring them up but it will be your hypocrisy just to say and don't show anything. This thread is specifically for the site which is in first post, so your post where you will try to turn it into AKJ VS Nihangs will not be allowed. Feel free to start new thread and let us know what is mis-quoted in that website and we have no problem with it but without making efforts your personal views are nothing but false allegations. If you want to participate in this thread then try to defend and present your counter arguement otherwise be in mute mode.

[Morpheous]

Gurfateh peeps

i think the site has some advantages - however these are heavily outweighed by the MAMMOTH CLOSSUS of disadvantages.

You guys seem to have pointed out the main fallacies concerning www.whyichosesikhism.com, its great to see you guys exercising your critical thinking skills!

My suspicions about the site started with the web address,

Why i Chose Sikhism ?

This itself is contrary(in my humble opinion) to the teachings of the Guru, in the sense that SIKHI CHOSE US, this whole perception of us making the choice actively to become a sikh is an illusion - i would love to back this point with some solid quotes from Guru Ji however my limted knowledge does not allow me to do so off the top of my head - i will try to provide aquote for this.

Furthermore we must COLLECTIVELY URGE THE WEBMASTER TO WITHDRAW THE 'FALLACIES OF ISLAM' SECTION, WHO ARE WE TO JUDGE A RELIGION? WE MUST BE HIGHER THAN THE RELGION ITSELF TO JUDGE IT!

Ill put it bluntly - the section PROVIDES FUEL FOR FUNDIMENTALIST MUSLIMS BECAUSE IT SHOWS INSECURITY !

CAN YOU IMAGINE A NON SIKH READING THE CONTENTS OF THAT SITE - WHAT SORT OF IMPRESSION WOULD IT GIVE ?!!!! IT IS FULL OF NEGATIVITY AND SUPPORTS DIVISION AMONG RELIGION

IN FACT IT EVEN SAYS;

'Sikhism is the only faith which shows the path to realisation of Akaal (timeless god)'

the ONLY FAITH ?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that provides a link to the timeless, NONESENSE! it sounds like a FUNDI CHRISTIAN OR MUSLIM CHATTING !!!!!!!!!

ask yourself honestly - has god given us a monopoly so that we can only access him?!! what happened to all the people before sikhism - did they not realise god - ie buddha..........?

Please peeps, we need to make a combined effort to sort this site out before it deludes the youth -

Harpreet

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Mod note: Please, don't use "CAPS' because in internet world it is known as shouting and in order to present your point you don't need to yell. Thanks!

[Bhai Sahib]

Firstly a note to the moderator:

My intention is not to make this into an AKJ v Nihaang debate since that debate is long dead and they have shown themselves to be narrow minded and have very little knowledge on Gurbani and Gursikhi. So i do not need to travel down that road. In my post you edited i was making simple points such as the fact that this is the year that we are remembering the shahidee of the for sahbzade killed in the name of Islam yet we have individuals here thinking that Islam is fab!!!! I see nothing there about inflamming a nihaang v AKJ debate. The only thing i did was to to quote a nihaang webpage which has been shown to mis-quote Gurbani very frequently so that individuals could gauge what a true distructive site is rather than www.whyichosesikhi.com. Unfortunately that is the only site i am aware of which does mis-quote Gurbani. I hope this clarifies matters.

With regards to Harpreet's e-mail. I disagree when you say that you do not choose sikhi since you do. You cannot be born as a Sikh you have to physically decide to give your head and accept Gursikhi. Since as Guru Ji says numerous times:

sathigur saev lagae har charanee vaddai bhaag liv laagee ||

Serving the True Guru, I am attached to the Lord's Lotus Feet; by great good fortune, I have embraced love for Him.

paarabreham thin ka(n)o sa(n)thusatt bhaeiaa jo gur charanee jan paahi ||

The Supreme Lord God is pleased with those who fall at the Guru's Feet.

Bhai Gurdas goes even further and states that:

dhhrig sir jo gur n nivai gur lagai n charanee||

Therefore this shows that it is a choice. You must choose to adopt Sikhi. YES it is true that without karam and pichle bhag you will not even have the option to make a choice. You are fotunate to be born in a family or have the sangat of those which could lead you along the path of a Gurshikhi jeevan but that does not mean you will adopt it.

With regards to Sikhi being the only path to salvation you again need to go no further that Bhai Gurdas who stated when Guru Nanak went to Mecca and spoke about the Hindus and Muslims he said:

rwh raah shaithaanee dhuneeaa goee ||aa||

The whole of the world is following the ways of Satan.

Bhagat Fareheed adds to this by saying:

lakh chouraaseeh firadhae rehae bin sathigur mukath n hoee ||

People continue wandering through the cycle of 8.4 million incarnations; without the True Guru, liberation is not obtained.

Harpreet Singh and my other brothers and sisters i urge you all to understand our Guru and read bani. I reluctanty post on boards if asked to do so to ensure that the youth are not being told incorrect facts. If nothing else i urge you all to read a translation of Asa Di Vaar and also the whole of Maru Raag which starts on Ang 889 upto ang 1106. Since then you will see that although Guru Ji promotes love and tolerence towards all there is also another aspect. I urge you to take a few days out and read bani outlined.

As we have already discused it is ONLY in Guru Nanaks house that you can obtain naam. As we all know it is only with naam that you can gain salvation therefore this should answer your question.

Another main point is that Sikhi is the only religion that aligns one direct with Waheguru all otheres say worship another first. Christains have to love Jesus before they can get to Jehova Muslims need to love Mohamed before they get to Allah. I hope you get the jist of what i am saying.

As ever all i ask is you do your own research rather than relying upon others and listening to heresay.

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Mod Note: Bhai Sahib this is your third post and you have attacked our site without any reason. Please stick to topic as we have requested earlier. This forum is to discuss and if you don't agree with any points then present counter arguements but you don't need to judge/assume things in here.

Your posts will not be deleted as you have assumed because this is not a cult site where people are forced to believe in our type of Sikhi. Members are discussing about that site and still you have attacked our site just for allowing topic. You can have hater towards our site and we have no problem with it. But during discussion you don't need to post your hate comments in every post you make instead stick to topic and follow discussion.

[Morpheous]

First 'Bhai Sahib' i disagree with your mentality towards 'giving your head'

When 'you' give 'your' head do 'you' make the active choice.

Well, it is in this writers contention that the answer is a blunt....no.

Y? Because if 'you' exist and 'you' make the choices, what have 'you' given ?

Your version of giving your head is based on 'choice' - which is dillusional - because ifyou still exist how can he -its underlined by ankhar because 'you still exist'.

In my opinion its a game of love, when you are in love with someone - ie your wife when she comes into the room all your attention is on her, your mind is full of her thought - you are 'mindful' of your wife - you do not need to remind yourself of remembering her, y? because you have developed a thirst for her - using this concept - some people are 'mindful' of har- the existance - this is the meaning of true simran - mindfullness. So what does this have to do with Amrit - well in order for you to take TRUE Amrit 'you, i, me, my' must not exist -

it clearly does in Bhai Sahibs View.

people with this approach towards Guru usually end up saying to mentally to other Singhs - 'ive given my head to sikh, what have you given'.

ask yourself truly IS THAT HEAD YOURS TO GIVE?

Point 2.

'As we have already discussed it is ONLY in Guru Nanaks house that you can obtain naam. As we all know it is only with naam that you can gain salvation therefore this should answer your question'

Naam can only be recieved in Guru Nanaks house ??

So they put

[Morpheous]

First 'Bhai Sahib' i disagree with your mentality towards 'giving your head'

When 'you' give 'your' head do 'you' make the active choice.

Well, it is in this writers contention that the answer is a blunt....no.

Y? Because if 'you' exist and 'you' make the choices, what have 'you' given ?

Your version of giving your head is based on 'choice' - which is dillusional - because ifyou still exist how can he -its underlined by ankhar because 'you still exist'.

In my opinion its a game of love, when you are in love with someone - ie your wife when she comes into the room all your attention is on her, your mind is full of her thought - you are 'mindful' of your wife - you do not need to remind yourself of remembering her, y? because you have developed a thirst for her - using this concept - some people are 'mindful' of har- the existance - this is the meaning of true simran - mindfullness. So what does this have to do with Amrit - well in order for you to take TRUE Amrit 'you, i, me, my' must not exist -

it clearly does in Bhai Sahibs View.

people with this approach towards Guru usually end up saying to mentally to other Singhs - 'ive given my head to sikh, what have you given'.

ask yourself truly IS THAT HEAD YOURS TO GIVE?

Point 2.

'As we have already discussed it is ONLY in Guru Nanaks house that you can obtain naam. As we all know it is only with naam that you can gain salvation therefore this should answer your question'

Naam can only be recieved in Guru Nanaks house ??

So they put the name inside you in guru nanaks house?!

Once again i would disagree, nam and amrit are running inside you all the time, your atma is always doing simran of har, but our paaps are covering this upfor us, for example

A stream of purity flows within the Self.

One who drinks from it, finds peace.

Guru Ram Das.

Bhai sahib how can we possibly promote this site? it is fundementality flawed. Just look at the homepage. The picture of the two bibis

Then look at the captions. Once again lets be 'sach', is that a truthful representation of a muslim woman and a Sikh woman?

'Harpreet Singh and my other brothers and sisters i urge you all to understand our Guru ' - yes 100% with you.

'As ever all i ask is you do your own research rather than relying upon others and listening to heresay' - slight contradiction since you have urged us to read tranlsations - 'If nothing else i urge you all to read a translation of Asa Di Vaar ' - the translation itself someelses research - you have just told us to not rely on others heresay - then what is reading a translation of Asa Di Var ?

Ok - Bhai Sahib - my ankhar is spirialing out of control - so i'll stop there.

Apologies to the moderator for the use of 'caps', i need to learn how to control my emotions and ill try my best.

Gurfateh

[Guest]

Lalleshwari, why are you always defending Shiaa's? Do you know they allow a woman to be married for a little while (temporary marriage) and then she is sent back? Its called Mutaa. Disguisting.

[tSingh]

Not necessarily so Saihajleen! In practice this can be used in the woman's favour also. Mind you, you yourself might find this equally disgusting...

I was listening to the radio a few years back on Islamic marriage and on came a chuckly young Shiaa lady who was singing up the temporary marriage, because it can last for any amount of time and equally dissolved from the length of years to a matter of minutes. In otherwords she can have boyfreinds and rendezvous' legally. And unlike the assumptions most people would have, she was actually the one finding the boyfriends! She was great, she shattered this illusion among the people on the programme that Islamic women are poor wretched repressed people wearing veils! She was having the time of her life.

I'm sure there are also horrendous stories in reverse...there is a film called 'The Circle' which is an excellent portrayal of women's plight in modern day Iran, which would suggest the opposite.

[Bhai Sahib]

Harpreet Singh Ji sorry to disagree with you again but i do disagree vermently with your points above re giving of ones head.

However it is amazing that you have given my counter-point within your own statement.

Because if 'you' exist and 'you' make the choices, what have 'you' given ? Your version of giving your head is based on 'choice' - which is dillusional - because ifyou still exist how can he -its underlined by ankhar because 'you still exist'.

The whole point of giving ones head to to surrunder oneself. Therefore yes YOU still exist prior to giving your head but once you decide to give it you realise that there is more than just YOU and you have given everything to Guru Ji. Those who still have hankar will not give thier haed and will continue to believe that they are in controll of everything.

I will reiterate my early point and say:

If nothing else i urge you all to read a translation of Asa Di Vaar and also the whole of Maru Raag which starts on Ang 889 upto ang 1106. Since then you will see that although Guru Ji promotes love and tolerence towards all there is also another aspect. I urge you to take a few days out and read bani outlined.

[Morpheous]

What does guru ji need from you - he already has everything..

you existing before was an illusion.

mr Bai Sahib, please PM me where we can discuss this further.

Also will you reply in relation to the site(whyichoosesikhism) the other points put forward, it seems you have selectively economised your reply.

Before this becomes a battle of 'who knows more' instead of 'how can we work together to get to the right answer?' . please reply to my PM

Gurfateh

[Bhai Sahib]

I do wish this to be a debate between the two of us but just to answer your questions.

Withh regards to the copmments made re the website

Bhai sahib how can we possibly promote this site? it is fundementality flawed. Just look at the homepage. The picture of the two bibis

Then look at the captions. Once again lets be 'sach', is that a truthful representation of a muslim woman and a Sikh woman?

In fairness i think it is a true repesentation of orthodox images of each religion.

With reagrds to your recent comment:

What does guru ji need from you - he already has everything..

In that case why would we need to do nitnem, go to the Gurdwara to join in sadh sangat, do simran. In which case we need not do anything other than take amrit. I agree that Guru Ji as everything but what he wants is our love which we show via doing simran, seva etc as well as giving our head!!!!

[Morpheous]

Read my post carefully Bhai Sahib ji you have taken my point out of context - especially the last one you have mentioned above.

My intention was not to debate with you, but to share views so that we could work our way to the right answer.

Since you have already cemented your views and approached my comments as if your were in a debate.

I withdraw from your 'debate' on the basis that i dont think im qualified enough to argue on your level

Humble apologies

Harpreet

[MandipUK]

WJKK WJKF!

Having browsed over the site http://www.whyichosesikhism.com/, i refuse to believe a Guru loving sikh would have created it.

For example in the second sentence of the home page it is stated:

Sikhism is the only faith which shows the path to realisation of Akaal (timeless god).

This i believe is a total contradiction to the fundamentals of the sikh panth and i feel this whole site has been created out of ANGER and vengence towards Islam. This is probably because the site was created by the victims of certain Islamic militant groups and their conversion policy.

Perhaps a more productive tactic would have been to explore the [highlight=red:611bac114f]similarities[/highlight:611bac114f] of Sikhism and Islam since this would generate love amongst people instead of [highlight=red:611bac114f]hate[/highlight:611bac114f] and [highlight=red:611bac114f]fear[/highlight:611bac114f].

I will continue to study the site in detail and will welcome any replies to my post. Please forgive me if i have written anything that may offend anyone.

Fateh!

[Guest]

Mandip, why do you think Sikhism came into existence then? As an extra option?

JtSingh, woman sounds a bit promiscuous, she would fit in on Jerry Springer though, lol.

[MandipUK]

Sikhism always existed it did not COME into existence. As i believe sikhism is the surch for truth and truth has always been there.

I believe our Guru's showed us the path towards truth and also showed us to live in a truthfull way. I dont think they slandered any religion nor did they want to create a new one! They just wanted people to recognise that everyone was created equal and to join together in the worship of the creator. Whether we call the EXISTENCE Allah, Jesus, Raam or Waheguru makes no difference the existence will not change or get bigger or smaller.

So i feel this site does not promote the above points instead it has joined into the theme of comparing religions and judging which is better...exactly what our Guru's fought against! For us to judge a religion we have to be higher than it..are these people higher than Islam and Sikhism? If so i would like to do thier darshan....

[Morpheous]

Ill have to agree with you on those points MandipUK, an old man once told me that if you are ever encounter issues in your life concerning your sikhi, refer back to the Mool Mantra and first sloak.

MandipUK seems to have done this successfully. Any views on the contrary?

[Guest]

If Sikhism always existed then why was the Amrit ceremony, the Rehat introduced to us and made obligatory? It was not known before, don't you mean the 'Truth' always existed?

[Morpheous]

Miss Kaur Khalsa,

Personally, i think that the Amrit ceremony was not the CREATION of the Khalsa. Anything created can be destroyed. If that is the beginning of a creation then it must have an end.

The Amrit ceremony(1699) is viewed by some, such as myself as REALIZATION of the khalsa. The truth has been there for eternity, and the khalsa were supposed to be a realisation of this concept.

Additonally, i do not believe once you have taken physical amrit - as people do at smagams, that you have become a Khalsa automatically.

Khalsa - can be interpreted to mean pure - through purity of thought and purity if action then you are going towards being a khalsa.

Even then if you call yourself a khalsa - would you not be admitting to yourself and others that you have become pure - can you sense the slight egoism in that?

Sikhism - again i would have to agree with MandipUK that it has always existed, the search for the truth has always been there.

'It was not known before' - are you talking about

Amrit or the rehats ?

In relation to the rehats - you look at them carefully and you will find that the concepts within them ARE KNOWN TO MAN BEFORE.

Amrit - timelessness - realization of 'ad sach jugaad sach habee such naanak hosee bee sach, a step in the path to relisation of the Existance. Once again surrender of will(illusion) and relization are also present in buddhism(pre guru times) and Islam(Surrender yourself to the will of Allah) - it was known before

The problem is that generally people love to think in boxes - i am a sikh - i should do this - i shouldnt do this - bad sikhs do this - good sikhs do this- one could even call it 'a unitary approach' based on lack of knowledge and insecurity.

A further example; my religion says this, your religion says this, your religion is wrong therefore my religion is the best.

Evidence on this mentality is readily available on www.whyichoosesikhism.com

Ms Khalsa ?

[Hari]

If Sikhism always existed then why was the Amrit ceremony, the Rehat introduced to us and made obligatory? It was not known before, don't you mean the 'Truth' always existed?

Khande ka Pahul is not obligatory for a Sikh of Satguru Nanak.Now if you talk about Amrit, then I say Amrit has always existed and always will.

Sikhi = Truth = Sikhi

Satguru Nanak Nirankar = Truth

Gurbani = Truth

Srimad Bhagvad Gita = Truth

Sri Ishopanishad = Truth

Sri Yoga Vasishta = Truth

Veda = Truth

Sri Gautam Buddha = Truth

Christ = Truth

And before these scriptures and Mahapurush ever existed, Sikhi existed.

Hari Om Shanti Shanti Shanti...

[Niranjana]

Incidently the term Khalsa does not translate driectly to pure...this interpretation is the works of Amar Singh Bagarian when explaining the concept to the British and wholly misses the notion of what a Khalsa is...subordinated to none (other than Vaheguroo).

[Guest Javanmard]

We see here are clash between those who stick to

Vahiguruji ka khalsa and continue the puratan Sikh tradition of respecting all prophets, avatar and sainst from all backgrounds and those who believe in the biggoted belief of Khalsa Ji ka Vahiguru and think that neo-Sikhism is the only way. These may not say it like that but that is their manmat.

As far as I am concerned I stick to Vahiguru Ji ka Khalsa and love all prophets, avatars and saints sent by Akal Purakh. I suggest those who have not studied Islamic sciences to bastain from ignorant and stupd comments (you know who you are: no need of mentioning names) and suggest they take a look at the beautiful words Bhai Gurdas uses for the Prophet (pbuh).

[Morpheous]

thanx for the correction niranjana !

[Guest]

Im so confused. Then what's the point of taking Amrit?

[Guest]

Im so confused. Then what's the point of taking Amrit?

No need to be confused about it. Point of amrit is- is our guroo maharaj said so.. set up principles for his sikhs...He gave has hakum and we are tend to follow them by following the hakum. It simple as is!!!

[Sher_Singh]

Not necessarily so Saihajleen! In practice this can be used in the woman's favour also. Mind you, you yourself might find this equally disgusting...

I was listening to the radio a few years back on Islamic marriage and on came a chuckly young Shiaa lady who was singing up the temporary marriage, because it can last for any amount of time and equally dissolved from the length of years to a matter of minutes. In otherwords she can have boyfreinds and rendezvous' legally. And unlike the assumptions most people would have, she was actually the one finding the boyfriends! She was great, she shattered this illusion among the people on the programme that Islamic women are poor wretched repressed people wearing veils! She was having the time of her life.

I'm sure there are also horrendous stories in reverse...there is a film called 'The Circle' which is an excellent portrayal of women's plight in modern day Iran, which would suggest the opposite.

I remember watching a Kilroy discussion once and they had a prostitute on who was also saying similar stuff like she's the one who is in control and how she's just having fun and getting cash for it. I suppose the Shia Mullah would qualify to be the pimp in your story. This form of Marriage is just a form of religious sanctioned prostitution, wonder if Jtsingh would be similarly impressed if it was his sister who was doing such things. I suppose that's where hyprocrisy comes in.

Bhainji Sahajleen Kaur

There is no need to be confused. Your relationship is with the Guru and it is the Gurus teachings we follow. Why settle for second best, approach the Guru yourself and he will give you the best guidance.

[Guest]

Gurfateh

Sher Singh, good point, the best reason to take Amrit is because it is our Guru's Hukam. In fact, once a Sikh said to Baba Nand Singh Ji, what's the point of taking Amrit if your heart is pure? Babaji said to the Sikh, in that case, why did Guru Gobind Singh Ji take Amrit? Wasn't his heart pure?

Hari, how did you find out all of those systems are the Truth? When I asked, what is the need for Amrit, I meant if the Truth was already present and people were following it Im assuming, why did Guru Nanak Nirankar Saroop come to Earth to create a new Panth? That's what I meant Neo Ji.

Lalle, you're on a different planet. Why do you always assume that women who wear Dastar look masculine? You seen the pictures of the American Sikhs? They look beautiful, I dont think anyone in their right mind would call them masculine.