Mr §ingh Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 lol in French erm oki so you have decided that you WILL NOT give a yes or no :? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 Yes or no to what? :bling: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr §ingh Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 lol...that question Bhanji posed - Lalleshwari, I see you always bring up Shiaa Muslims on any Islam related thread. Can I ask you a question? Do they believe only believers will enter Paradise? Yes or No? Yes or no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 Depends on the Shias. Most of them that all believers be it Muslims, SIkhs or Christians will go to Paradise if they have served Allah properly. Some ullemah though do not abide by this belief but they are a minority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 They are basically divided on this also. Although I have to say, after reading some stuff Lalleshwari guided me to, Shi'a's are nowhere as bad as Sunnis in terms of intolerance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 They are divided but I would say it's a 90% in favour of a tolerant view of things whereas the others are neo-Khomeini types that in fact have been influenced by Sunnis. But real Shi'ism accepts other religions. The hadith of Imam Jaffar (AS) show a great respect for Indian religions and it is known that he spoke Sanskrit. Intolerant SHi'as are in fact an anomality. Mind you Khamenei the present head of the Iranian government is one such oddity. Again most Shias both Iraqi and Indo-Pakistani really respect our Gurus!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MandipUK Posted March 5, 2004 Report Share Posted March 5, 2004 Saihajleen Kaur, I am really interested in your views on sikhism because they appear to be different from mine, Harpreet, lalleshvari and other peeps... I believe our problem lies in the fact none of us have understood bani properly. i personally rely on literal translations that i find on the net and miss the true meaning...or the TRUTH. Ms Saihajleen can you prove that God exists without using quotes from gurbani...have you ever seen God? can anyone else anwer that question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ideal Singh Posted March 5, 2004 Report Share Posted March 5, 2004 --> What if you finally meet GOD ? --> What would you do then, that you can't do today ? --> Why you want to meet GOD ? --> Can anybody explain the concept of "Becoming one with GOD"... aren't we trying to give attribute to GOD... isn't that so charachteristic of Western religions... Bhul Chuk Maaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 5, 2004 Report Share Posted March 5, 2004 I just browsed the site and it has some good points in it. But we need to ask few questions to ourselves before we set up websites such as these. 1. Is Muslim conversion new for Sikhs? Guru Tegh Bhadhur Ji Bhai Mati Das Ji Bhai Sati Das Ji, Bhai Taru Ji, Bhai Mani Singh ji Just read the names I have written above just for an example and see why they sacrificed their lives? You will have clear message that they didn't embrace Islam and instead preferred to die. Now start comparing all these Sikhism women to Gursikhs I have mentioned? Do they come near them? If not, then why are we worried? If God has written their destiny then there is no way you can change it. You always learn from your mistakes. If you really have intention to help them then let them know about their faith first. Let them know about their faith/religion. I want to convey this message to cyber world of Sikhs that before setting up sites such as the one we are evaluating, we should consider working hard on spreading the word of Gurus and their teachings. Webmaster has setup good site and there is no doubt about it but he forgot to follow Sikh way of preaching God's word. Sikhism is not about comparing bad apples with good apples but it's all about preaching message of God and if someone is willing to take God’s words and want to connect himself/herself to God then he should embrace Sikhism otherwise he/she should not have any restrictions to stick to Sikhism. And it should not make us upset if they leave Sikhism. Do you think all these girls are following God's/Guru’s words? Are they familiar with Guru Granth Sahib's message? I'm not aware of real cause of this problem in UK, but in countries such as Canada, America Sikh girls don't see Sikh Guys with beard and Turban Attractive and if we're setting up these websites to save these girls the ones see Sikhs as joke then why waste your energy? Also, we should be aware of this fact that Sikhism does not stop you if you want to change your faith/religion and it’s not a some kind of shop where you need to offer better service to attract your clients. Just think about it. Why Gursikhs preferred to die instead of embracing Islam? Do you think our Gurus had set up website "Whyichosesikhism" to build faith which “Sahria†law couldn't shake? The only reason was that Gurus were able to share views of God to humanity and God's will to mankind in a right manners and after that nothing could shake their Sikhs faith. Where are those same words? Are they lost? They are still here and you can find them in Guru Granth Sahib and good way is to spread those words and you will not see these problems. Just think about it. Why Guru Arjun Dev ji didn’t embrace Islam? Why Guru Tegh Bhadhur ji didn’t embrace Islam? Why Bhai Mati Das didn’t embrace Islam? Why Bhai Mani Singh didn’t embrace Islam? Why Bhai Sati Das didn’t embrace Islam? Why Bhai Taru Ji didn’t embrace Islam? What was the reason that “Chotte Shaibzaade didn’t embrace Islam? Was there any website to make them strong in their faith? Then what was there that they were so strong that inhuman Sharia Laws couldn’t shake their faith in their Gurus? And these girls are loosing their faith for the sake of their crush/wordly love of their Ranjhas/Mirzas? I think we need to leave admiring people the ones carry "Baara Bor di revolver" and "Homemade wine" drinkers and start preaching Gurus words and teaching which can reform the whole mankind and put them on right path. Please, follow links to read further and you might come to any conclusion. Mission Of Guru Nanak: A Muslim's Appraisal http://sikhnet.com/Sikhnet/discussion.nsf/...ghlight=0,iqbal Sikh History -Conflict between Muslims and the Sikhs. http://sikhnet.com/Sikhnet/discussion.nsf/...EE?OpenDocument Mohammad Iqbal On Japuji Sahib http://sikhnet.com/Sikhnet/discussion.nsf/...ghlight=0,iqbal Mohammad Yusaf Abbasi On Guru Granth Sahib http://sikhnet.com/Sikhnet/discussion.nsf/...ghlight=0,yusaf Muslim Conversions and Parent Teachings http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....C4?OpenDocument Muslim Conversions http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....A6?OpenDocument Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ideal Singh Posted March 5, 2004 Report Share Posted March 5, 2004 You will have clear message that they didn't embrace Islam and instead preferred to die. I think this statement needs some polishing to avoid contraversy... I think Sikh Gurus and Followers preferred to die becasue they believed in freedom of choice of human spirit. Freedom of Spirit means nobody can be enforced to follow someone else against his/her own sweet will... Sikh Guru did not, to my knowledge, ever criticised or ridiculed Islam, the Religion, but rahter they rejected the way it was followed. I, Zafarnama, the letter of Victory Guru Ji did not criticise or ridicule Islam but rejected the way Aurangzeb followed it... My perspective... BCM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 5, 2004 Report Share Posted March 5, 2004 Mandip I am really interested in your views on sikhism because they appear to be different from mine, Harpreet, lalleshvari and other peeps... I guess no one has exact similar views. Perhaps you could explain further, I don't understand. I believe our problem lies in the fact none of us have understood bani properly. i personally rely on literal translations that i find on the net and miss the true meaning...or the TRUTH. In this day and age, I dont believe we can understand the Gurbani, we miss the 'Truth'. This is why I firmly believe that Mahapurush help us understand 'the true meaning'. Ms Saihajleen can you prove that God exists without using quotes from gurbani...have you ever seen God? can anyone else anwer that question? No I can't. Reason is because 'Brahmgyani kee gat Brahmgyani Jaaney' Lalleshwari Ji, Im finding it hard to believe that 90% of Shi'a's accept other religions, it says in the Quran "Whoever accepts a religion other than Islaam it will never be accepted of them" <---do they disbelieve in their Quran? Or are you saying Shi'a's believe the Quran was not recited by Mohammad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted March 5, 2004 Report Share Posted March 5, 2004 1.What ayat in Qur'an are you refering to? 2. I suggest you look at the different meaning sof the word Islam and realise that it is context sensitive 3. If it were so true that only Muslims went to Heaven why did the Prophet (pbuh) marry non-Muslim women and did not impose them Islam? 4. The Qur'an needs to be interpreted WITH the Hadith of the 14 Masumeen otherwise its interpretation in incorrect!!! 5. I have myself witnessed great ayatollahs openly say that even non-Muslims who mourn Imam Hussain will enter Paradise. Not just once but many many times!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sikh_fauge Posted March 5, 2004 Report Share Posted March 5, 2004 Veera, in reference to number five (point above) does that mean they only accept u on the condition that u mourn with them (over their prophets/saints)?? What u have to remember there are millions upon millions of muslims (sunni) who do not regard shias and sufis as muslims; parallel to sikhs not accepting nirankaris,etc because they go against the basic tenants of guru gobind singh jis last rehit to the sikhs. These individuals, as far as im aware- and have been informed by other muslims- arent 'proper' muslims and they dnt represent the prophets teachings i.e the koran, and the haddith. Also, the gurus didnt mock islam ur right, but to an extent..guru nanak dev jis visit to mecca clearly illustrates that the lord cannot be found in the west,etc (which has become a practise of muslims); also that praying out of ritual/routine is of no avail (which is another norm with muslims nowadays, and alot of sikhs.) But to counter this point, guru gobind singh jis zafarnama is being taken out of context a) because aurangzeb had lied about keeping peace b)because he had sworn on the prophet c)aurangzeb was a known scholar and respected man on islam. It was this hypocrisy of aurangzeb that guru questioned i.e despite proclaiming his faith to the people, and declaring his love of islam, he still stooped as low as to lie even when he swore on the prophet and the koran. Also, as i mentioned, guru gobind singh jis bichittar natak in dasam granth (which alot of people ignore) explains basically, the history of relegion. I dont agree sikhi is the only way..rab apai melondha..it isnt for us to decide who he brings into himself. However i feel sikhi picked up from where other faiths left off; not because they were false (to an extent) but because they had lost their basic essence of existence. Sikhi for me is the only concise faith; and FOR ME, the clearest path to salvation. In addition it is the ONLY faith which practises tolerance; why? because it is embodied in our teachings from the gurus, and not something which has evolved over time (which is what shias are.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sikh_fauge Posted March 5, 2004 Report Share Posted March 5, 2004 P.S the prophet mohammeds relationships with those women doesnt have any reflection on his teachings/beleifs. In the koran, and i shall post it later, a muslim is taught to treat other women i.e non muslim, like a slave. Hence these wives of his were mere sex partners nothing more nothing less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sikh_fauge Posted March 5, 2004 Report Share Posted March 5, 2004 'And do not marry idolatresses until they believe.' Soorah al-Baqarah, Aayah 221 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted March 5, 2004 Report Share Posted March 5, 2004 1.Which tafseer are you using for this ayat? 2. Which is the word used for "idolatress"? 3. Which concept of idol is it? 4. Which taqliq do you follow regarding this verse? 5. Which sira and which compilation of hadith are you using to comment this verse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sikh_fauge Posted March 5, 2004 Report Share Posted March 5, 2004 And if you are in doubt about what We have revealed (the Quran) to Our worshiper (Muhammad ), then produce a chapter like it, and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides God if you are truthful. And if you do not do it, and you can never do it, then fear the Fire (Hell) whose fuel is men and stones. It has been prepared for disbelievers. And give good news (O Muhammad) to those who believe and do good deeds, that for them are gardens (Paradise) in which rivers flow.... (Quran, 2:23-25) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sikh_fauge Posted March 5, 2004 Report Share Posted March 5, 2004 But whoever turns away from the Quran,1 he will have a hard life, and We will raise him up blind on the Day of Judgment. (Quran, 20:124) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted March 5, 2004 Report Share Posted March 5, 2004 Giving ayas of the Qur'an one after the other like a Neo-Protestant American precaher or a Wahabi will not solve the issue as you are not applying the rules of Islamic hermenuetics. I repeat again: 1.Which tafseer are you using for this ayat? 2. Which is the word used for "idolatress"? 3. Which concept of idol is it? 4. Which taqliq do you follow regarding this verse? 5. Which sira and which compilation of hadith are you using to comment this verse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr §ingh Posted March 5, 2004 Report Share Posted March 5, 2004 1.What ayat in Qur'an are you refering to? 2. I suggest you look at the different meaning sof the word Islam and realise that it is context sensitive 3. If it were so true that only Muslims went to Heaven why did the Prophet (pbuh) marry non-Muslim women and did not impose them Islam? Even better question is why did he allow his muslims to sexualy abuse Woemn from other religions who were from other religion :roll: I will get back to u with hadith 4. The Qur'an needs to be interpreted WITH the Hadith of the 14 Masumeen otherwise its interpretation in incorrect!!! 5. I have myself witnessed great ayatollahs openly say that even non-Muslims who mourn Imam Hussain will enter Paradise. Not just once but many many times!!! BUt I mourn no Imam Hussain !!!!!!!! I love my GURU ..is tha not enough? do I have to mourn Imam Hussian - whoever tha might be :?: Also..you or Harpreet (?) said tha only Wahabs interpret the Qu'ran in an intolerant way.. IK use the ollwoing translation - http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/ which has thrte translations including the one by Yusuf Ali - the one widely accepted by the muslims now lets ee what it says - Sura 9:5 Quote: And when the forbidden months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever you find them and take them captive, and beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they repent and observe Prayer and pay the Zakaat, then leave their way free. Surely, Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful. Sura 9:14 Quote: Fight them, that Allah may punish them at your hands, and humiliate then, and help you to victory over them, and relieve the minds of a people who believe Sura 9:29 Quote: Fight those who do not profess the true faith (Islam) till they pay the jiziya (poll tax) with the hand of humility. Sura 9:30 Quote: And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away! Please don't trust what I'm quoting! Look it for yourself..! I've posted the link above - and you may take a look at each quote by yourself how do SH'IAS INTERPRET those quotes ? Sikh Fauge - 004.034 YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all). If you want I can post mroe quotes of inequality of women from the Qu'ran if you want bhull chukk maaf GurFAteh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sikh_fauge Posted March 5, 2004 Report Share Posted March 5, 2004 Muhammad is not the father of any one of your men, but he is the Messenger of God and the last of the prophets... (Quran, 33:40) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sikh_fauge Posted March 5, 2004 Report Share Posted March 5, 2004 I dont understand how people who follow these teachings (fair enough) can truley embrace other faiths. The condition those shias laid onto u, is that u have to mourn with them. Had u not turned up to that event would they have called u brother?? Mr singh keep the quotes coming..i like reading other relegious hyms,etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sikh_fauge Posted March 5, 2004 Report Share Posted March 5, 2004 And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will not be accepted from him and he will be one of the losers in the Hereafter. (Quran, 3:85) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted March 5, 2004 Report Share Posted March 5, 2004 1.None of you guys are using tafseer from proper marja's and you are hence quoting out of context as you ususally do with gurbani as well by the way! 2. Which collection of hadith are you using? Make sure they are from the Ahlul Bayt and from no one else! From what I see none of you are able to respect basic and fundamental rules of hermeneutics and you are thise unable to argue your cases! 3. Anyone having read the works of people like Ayatollah 'Allamah Tabatabai and Sayed Hussain Nasr would know that Muslims are not the only ones entering Paradise. But I guess some people are just happy thinking that Isam is this monster they have to fight against to be able to feel good about themselves! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr §ingh Posted March 5, 2004 Report Share Posted March 5, 2004 1.None of you guys are using tafseer from proper marja's and you are hence quoting out of context as you ususally do with gurbani as well by the way!! thats why I asked YOU to tell me how YOU interpret it 2. Which collection of hadith are you using? Make sure they are from the Ahlul Bayt and from no one else! Not..Bukhari.. I thought that one was also widely accepted :? From what I see none of you are able to respect basic and fundamental rules of hermeneutics and you are thise unable to argue your cases Or your unable to answer my first question - BUt I mourn no Imam Hussain !!!!!!!! I love my GURU ..is tha not enough? do I have to mourn Imam Hussian - whoever tha might be I don't WANT TO MOURN No imam Hussien I love my GURU is that not nuff ? Gurfateh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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