Niranjana Posted March 17, 2004 Report Share Posted March 17, 2004 Gur Fateh! I would like to have the opinions of the forum members on the issue of Dasam Granth and the respect to be accorded to this scripture in terms of performing parkash of this Granth alongside the Sri (Adi) Guru Granth Sahib. I do not wish discuss Sarabloh Granth as this is somewhat more complicated and more specialist matter (maybe address in another thread). Since this forum, does have a wide range of members from various backgrounds, whilst this does pit arguments against one another, when moderated, these do prove to be useful as a means of assessing the matter at hand as the any good discussion requires both pro-and-against arguments with the conclusion left to the reader in accordance with their ‘budhi’. As such, please do come forward and express your opinions, views, facts etc, either personal, historical or in support of any Sampradaya, Jatha or Organisation you may follow. This thread, if we keep personalities away from it (so, by all means, please put your views forward strongly, but let’s not get into individual arguments, let the strength of your discussion and facts bear testament), should allow for a good understanding of various points of view on this matter and allow individuals to essentially make their own conclusion upon hearing all sides on this matter. As we know, Parkash of both Granths was commonplace prior to the Singh Sabha reforms, how did this arise and why was it stopped? Gur Fateh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted March 17, 2004 Report Share Posted March 17, 2004 Bansavalinama says it should be done and that's the oldest maryada. Yes it should be done,of course! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niranjana Posted March 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2004 Interesting reference, shall look into this further...please keep the views coming and vote on the poll... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 17, 2004 Report Share Posted March 17, 2004 Lalleshvari, Can you please be kind to provide more information on "Bansavalinama". I never heard of that term before.. So it be nice if you can give sort of introduciton to this reference. I dont even know how to prounce it...lol.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niranjana Posted March 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2004 Gur Fateh! Lalleshvari Veer, I’m going to proceed and give the standard modern day accounts of the Bansavalinama with all the trimmings vis-a-vis pro-and-anti arguments for its validity, as these are bound to come up! Kesar Singh Chhibber is the author of 'Bansavalinama' which was written some 71 years after the Guru Sahib’s demise. In addition to implied references to the Dasam Granth, he also mentions 'Samundar Sagar' which was later thrown in a river and the 'Avtar Leela'. There is no explicit reference to the terms 'Dasam Granth', 'Bachittar Natak', 'Chandi Charitar', 'Chandi di Var', 'Charitropakhyan' or 'Chaubis Avtar', as these are called now. Bhai Sahib is said to have belonged to a family of diwans (administrators) of the Gurus; his great-grandfather was diwan of the Seventh, Eighth, and Ninth Gurus, and grandfather and father were diwans of Guru Gobind Singh. He also indicates that he held attendance with Mata Sundri Ji. Scholars such as Jaggi, Kohli and others, do not consider this to be reliable and air concerns over its dates and other particulars usually citing that the author indicates words to the effect: *I state what I had heard and what I could recollect...This hearsay I record just by way of my hobby (shauk)* These scholars and others who do not hold this as a credible source also take issue with the fact that Kesar Singh was a Chhibbar Brahmin to support their notions. Personally, I have yet to read the document, however, whilst the abovementioned concerns are valid questions, although given Chhibbars states this is not set out as a historical chronicle, one may need to view this less stringently. The issue concerning this Brahmin background is interesting (similar mention is often made about Bhai Chaupa Singh) however, never comes up when speaking of Bhai Satti Das and Bhai Matti Das Shaheeds who were also Brahmins. For pro-views see Piara Singh Padam or alternatively visit the (controversial) Gobind Sadan site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted March 17, 2004 Report Share Posted March 17, 2004 What most scholars come up with against Bansavalinama is purely subjective: 1. The fact that Kesar Singh Chibbar writes out of shauk does not mean it's wrong 2. The main argument used by them is the fact that he was a Brahmin. It's very interesting though that the fact that Bhai Mati Das and Sati Das were Brahmins is coveniently not mentioned!!! Interesting how he say caste is not important but when a Keshdhari SIngh who happens to be of Brahmin origin writes something that goes against Tat Khalsa ideology it suddenly becomes a "Brahman conspiracy"!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 18, 2004 Report Share Posted March 18, 2004 Great discussion and thanks for starting it brother Niranjana. I will look forward to see more information on this topic. Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sikh_fauge Posted March 18, 2004 Report Share Posted March 18, 2004 lalleshvari paji, where can i get a copy of sarbloh granth?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niranjana Posted March 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2004 http://forums.waheguroo.com/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=3626 Please see above for the same discussion held on the SikhSangat site, some interesting views, opinions and facts are available on the matter... ...from which I would like to raise the view expressed by Dalip Singh and Amandeep Singh Munde in their writings that Guru Arjan Dev Jee on compiling the Adi Granth placed it at a higher levels permanently thereafter and Baba Buddha Jee attended as the first Granthi, pointing towards a dual Guruship model which continues today after Guru Gobind Singh conferred Gurgaddi to the Guru Granth Sahib and the Guru Khalsa Panth...any views from the forum? Additionally, those who purport Dasam Bani (in Dasam Granth and/or Sarbloh Granth) to be on par with the Adi Granth Sahib such that collectively they constitute the Guru Granth Sahib usually provide two varying accounts:- 1. Guru Khalsa Panth (or at the time, in the form of the Buddha Dal) conferred Gur Gaddi to Dasam Bani or indeed, 2. Guru Gobind Singh conferred Gur Gaddi to Gurbani contained within all the Granths... Any thoughts? I know for the second, the glaringly obvious observation is likely to be that commonly available history indicates that the Dasam and Sarbloh Granths were not compiled at the time of Gur Gaddi being granted... ...as per the first point, what authority does the Buddha Dal really have to confer Gurgaddi in this manner? As Sardar JapNaam Singh indicates in the SikhSangat forum "...It was collected and put together after Guru Sahib passed away. (I'm not talking about when it was written, I'm talking about when it was "compiled")...Guru Sahib gave Gurgaddi to Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Period. Who are we to give an equal place to Dasam Granth which was essentially created by man and not by Guru? Its pure manmat - Makes no sense." Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 22, 2004 Report Share Posted March 22, 2004 I m confused on this topic as well. When guroo maharaj said "Agaya Pai Akaal Kii, Tabi Chaloyo Panth, Sab Sikhan Ko Hukam haie Guroo Maneoo Granth". wouldnt be perfectly ok to beleive guroo maharaj is refering to guroo granth sahib ji? If guroo maharaj was talkin about more than one granth.. wouldnt he be saying "guroo maneoo Grantha" instead. Even though guro maharaj gave gurship to guroo granth sahib ji. I still think every gurdwara should held dasam granth praksh behides guroo granth sahib ji and held it as same level of guroo granth sahib ji. I dont think that be dis-respect or anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted March 23, 2004 Report Share Posted March 23, 2004 Good oint N3O but Guru Granth is manifest in three forms. It is a tri-unity: one manifest in three. The Bible is one book but includes many other books in itself! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAadmin Posted March 23, 2004 Report Share Posted March 23, 2004 Thanks lalleshvari, never thought of it that way.. "Tri- Unity: one manifest in three". Nicely Put Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted March 23, 2004 Report Share Posted March 23, 2004 SIkhi is far more complex and fascinating than people think! But hey! that's why we are learners!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pheena Posted March 23, 2004 Report Share Posted March 23, 2004 Good oint N3O but Guru Granth is manifest in three forms. It is a tri-unity: one manifest in three. The Bible is one book but includes many other books in itself! que? can u clarify what you maen by Guru Granth manisfes in three forms??? are you talking about Brahma, Vishnu, Mahaysh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAadmin Posted March 23, 2004 Report Share Posted March 23, 2004 No pheena, He is talking about three forms as in - Adi Guroo granth, Dasam Guroo granth and Sarbloh granth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pheena Posted March 23, 2004 Report Share Posted March 23, 2004 oh, thanks for the clarification ji. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gupy Posted April 22, 2004 Report Share Posted April 22, 2004 Sorry if this comment seems out of place, as I've just joined in, first of all Vaheguru ji ka Khalsa Vaheguru ji ki Fateh. I'd like to ask a few questions/points I would like yourselves to pick up on : 1) Without Dasam or Sarbloh Granths, what references from Guru have we got to any of our martial tradition (or Khalsa in general). 2) Surely without the influence of this Bani we would lack a major part of the Singh Guru Ji created, not to say Guru Granth Sahib Ji isn't a perfect teacher. 3) Isn't the fact that we've turned our back on this Gurbani the reason why we are today? How do you know that those who conspired to have them taken away, intended this to be the case. 4) Surely form a purely academic point of view (i.e. structure of poetry, mythology and application) the work of GuruGobind Singh Ji should be Widely acknowledged. 5) If you refuse to see Dasam and Sarbloh Granths in the same light of Bani, then why do most people do 3 out of 5 shabads from outside Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Surely this 'Maryada' of Nitnem stems from an old one where all 3 Granths are held high? 6) And at the end of the day, politics and other stuff aside, if this bani helps you, then whats wrong? My personal experience shows me that this bani has an effect, and to me feeling is believing. Just take Jaap Sahib or Chaupae... there just as special as Japji Sahib or Anand Sahib. Again from an academic point of view, the seem to have similar intricacy as Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I hope you can help me out, this is just the way I see it, and putting it against the back drop of our history in the 19th and 20th century, there’s got to be some reason why we are the way we are today? Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BabbarSher Posted April 23, 2004 Report Share Posted April 23, 2004 Dasam Granth cannot be accorded the status of Guru Granth Sahib. Guru Granth Sahib was copiled by Guru Maharaj himself. Dsam Granth was not. It contains a lot of baanis whihc could not have been written by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Please read the contents of Charitro, Bachittar Natak and Hikayats before providing your expert opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amrikingh Posted April 23, 2004 Report Share Posted April 23, 2004 Welcome to Sikhawareness Gupy Ji.........nice to have you here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gupy Posted April 23, 2004 Report Share Posted April 23, 2004 VJKK VJKF Thanks to BabbarSher, for your opinion. I agree that Guru Gobind Singh Ji didn't compile the Dasam Darbaar himself, however the point you make about reading certain parts, I currently am. Check out this link for the letter written by Bhai Mani Singh about compling Guru Ji's work: http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk/Scriptures/...am%20granth.htm But my main questions haven't been answered, SO PLZ ANY! COME IN AND LET US KNOW WHAT U THINK???? I've read some of your stuff, and I know theres enough of you out there that have opinions on the 6 questions i posed, thanks again to Babbarsher for replying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sikh_fauge Posted April 23, 2004 Report Share Posted April 23, 2004 The way i see it is like this. If u wish to be a traditional khalsa, like the singhs back in the day, then of course dasam granth bani and adi granth bani should be placed with the same sentiment. Prior to the brits coming into punjab, dasam granth was bani..them willy wonkas only took it away from our daily practise because its what gave singhs bir raas, and hence is the sole reason we were outstanding in military skills. If ur more of a saintly bundha, then theres no need to go there..but i think u should. After all, we are saint SOLDIERS (n that!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.S.KANG Posted April 23, 2004 Report Share Posted April 23, 2004 i totally agree with fauge. but how you know about what the british did? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sikh_fauge Posted April 23, 2004 Report Share Posted April 23, 2004 Im british! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gupy Posted April 23, 2004 Report Share Posted April 23, 2004 what did the british do.... 1. Why do I not see Raag Vidiya in a 'Gurdwara'. 2. Why do i see 'SInghs' dancing with swords... 3. Why do i see a Khalsa and Sikh community more divided than ever before 4. Why is it that only non-punjabi sikhs (like white ones) actually can use Sikhi practically, while us 'simpletons' following our various self proclaimed leaders are slowly and painfully losing our heritage. My brothers and sisters, I fear in 50 years time i'll be sitting in a lecture hall, looking at some beautiful (non-indian) Singhs and Singhnia telling me about their Sikhi, whilst back in my local (Gurdwara) next ppl are argueing over eating meat or sometin like that. When are we gonna learn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 23, 2004 Report Share Posted April 23, 2004 Great post gupy ji... an eye opener i must say.. i feel shamed now .. you are 110% right yaar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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