Why was parkash of Dasam Granth stopped?

[BabbarSher]

Dear Gupy,

You have given a very good website resource, from which I am donwloading the PDF files : related to the proofs that Dasam Granth is Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Baani. Lets see if they have any valid reasons.

I would like to discuss the Dasam Granth in complete details - the controversial portion after somone has read it. So pls read it asap.

I have asked a lot of people here quite many times, to discuss the controversial parts with me, but they dont seem to respond.

If you want I can send over the criticism of Bachittar Natak and Chritro to you. You can read, read counter arguments and then we can discuss, as you please. :-)

Regarding your questions, I am trying to answer below:

1) Without Dasam or Sarbloh Granths, what references from Guru have we got to any of our martial tradition (or Khalsa in general).

>>>>>>>>>No one, not even the most skeptical has ever question Baanis of Guru Granth Sahib which give reference to martial traditions. I have already told you what people raise their doubts on and rightly so.

2) Surely without the influence of this Bani we would lack a major part of the Singh Guru Ji created, not to say Guru Granth Sahib Ji isn't a perfect teacher.

>>>>>>>>>No I dont agree with you. When Dasam Granth was not there, Guru Hargobind Sahib's singhs fought with an equal bravery. The soldier stems from the saint, not vice a versa.

3) Isn't the fact that we've turned our back on this Gurbani the reason why we are today? How do you know that those who conspired to have them taken away, intended this to be the case.

>>>>>>>>>>>I could say the same siting Guru Gobind Singh Ji's word so oft used by Kala Afghana ..Jab eh Gaye Bipran ki Reet........the point is what is Bipran Ki Reet ..isnt reading and following chritro and bachittar natak going to be Bipran Ki Reet??

4) Surely form a purely academic point of view (i.e. structure of poetry, mythology and application) the work of GuruGobind Singh Ji should be Widely acknowledged.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>The answer to all your questions is that no one objects to all of the Baani. The Baani was compiled in a Granth form after Gureu Gobind Singh Ji and hence ti cannot be that all the Baani in it is as holy and non questionable as Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

5) If you refuse to see Dasam and Sarbloh Granths in the same light of Bani, then why do most people do 3 out of 5 shabads from outside Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Surely this 'Maryada' of Nitnem stems from an old one where all 3 Granths are held high?

>>>>>>>>Can you please elaborate on this Maryaada more?

6) And at the end of the day, politics and other stuff aside, if this bani helps you, then whats wrong? My personal experience shows me that this bani has an effect, and to me feeling is believing. Just take Jaap Sahib or Chaupae... there just as special as Japji Sahib or Anand Sahib. Again from an academic point of view, the seem to have similar intricacy as Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

>>>>>>>Gupy, the crux is, please study Chritro and Bachittar. I have never doubted Jaap Sahib or Akal Ustat. Baani's central motive is that we should read, understand and inculcate it in our lives. can we do the same for Chartro and Bachittar

[Guest Javanmard]

On the question of Charitropakhyan and Hikayat: Babbarsher you are judging this with the wrong set of mind. Don't forget that asa community we were very much influenced by Victorian sexual ethics during the British Raj. These writings of Guru Gobind SIngh put in their original cultural context were not considered pornographic in the least and to be honest with you only the Sunni mullah would have found them outrageous. The charitropakhyan are actually fascinating tales with a lot of lessons to be leant from them.Also Chaupai Sahib is from Charitropakhyan so how could we ever doubt it!It's only the Neo-SIkhs who doubt Dasam Guru Granth Sahib because, influnecedby this Victorian pruderie, they cannot face ths type of content. Hasn't Bhagat Jaydev written the Gitagovinda, one of the most exquisite pieces of erotic poetry (erotic is not pornographic)?

[BabbarSher]

Lalleshvari: I have heard this argument from you before regarding Charitro.

I am not under any Victorian - sex ia a taboo influence. I think sex is beautiful...but there is always a distinction between Masters and Johnsons and a XXX movie.

But it is not sex, yet the ways in which it is depcited e.g. Thukai, Bajayi ...are these the only words that can be used to depcit sexual act.

This is not erotic by any means..more pronographic.

Further some funnily vulgar acts like the head of the princes goes up in the vagina of a mare since he was standing too close.. Whats the point here ??

Also many of the stories are without any moral and in fact give a totally different moral, the righteousness doe not prevail.....it teaches u to be corrupt.

Some of the stories are so vile as to point directly to Dasmesh Ji as one the characters of the stories. (as Piara Singh Padam points out). Really I think we are committing a blasphemy if we are accpeting Charitro and in efect all these stories which include stories meant to be the 'aap beeti' of Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

P.S. If you want i can provide the exact quotes for all the above.

I am not a sunni mullah and u of all the people should know that ......based upon my muslim bashing as people call it ;-)

P.S. Chaupai Sahib is not away from doubt :-), as u have rightly pointed out its source, I used to be a big fan of Chaupai sahib till about an year ago, when things changed.

Although you may consider Kala Afghana a herectic .....please try and read his books on Charitro an Bachittar Natak.

If the points hehas addressed can be answered, that would be great. If you want I can provide u the PDF files.

[gupy]

VJKK VJKF

Thanks again for the detailed reply BabbarSher. With regards to Q5, the maryada I refer to is the general one of doing Japji Sahib, Jaap Sahib, Chaupae Sahib, Anand Sahib and Swaiyya in the morning (Nitnem).

I haven’t read a lot of Charitropakhyan, only a few ‘tales’ here and there. I’ve just started getting into this bani. I started on the basics like Jaap Sahib, Akaal Ustat, start of Bachittar Natak, Chandi Di Var, extracts of Shastar Maalaa and Chaupae Sahib. I’m just waiting for my exams to finish then I’ll really get into it.

The one thing I did want to do, is just read Charitropakhyan straight away, since it seems a logical assertion that due to its nature, I’ll need a good understanding before hand.

With regards to the issue of sex, from what I understand at this point, we have to face the fact that sex is the perfect example of an issue we as Sikhs CANNOT deal with today. I agree with paji/penji that we have been greatly influenced by the british in this respect.

From a common sense point of view, our Guru ( hence teacher of life) had to address this issue. The fact that we are so poor at doing so today, is a reflection (perhaps) of our own lack of understanding on this subject (not to say I have any of my own). I simply would take the opinion that Guru ji is ‘educating’ us.

But as I said, I need to read a lot more before I can really respond, however I would point out another aspect of Dasam Granth JI, i.e. the Bir ras shabads.

From the message I’m getting, you seem to agree that Jaap & Akaal Ustat are ‘OK’, but the others aren’t (based on your own understanding). I suppose, we can only keep trying to understand this work, at the end of the day, I’m not really going to base my whole concept of this bani purely on any scholars work. Instead, I shall take on board any ones opinions and form my own opinions (so please do send the links). On a wider point isn’t this one of the ways you should understand all bani????

From ones own limited point of view make as much sense as you can, but often Gurbani really only kicks in when you need it most (i.e. as reflection of ones own life experiences/developments), just got to be as good a disciple as you can.

Right now, based on rational and logical thought as well as the ‘experience’ of the bani itself, I must take the opinion that it is of Guru’s hand. It fills in so many wholes in some my understandings (especially with regards Khalsa and Singh, as opposed non- Singh Sikh).

Hope there’s someone else out there that can really answer your questions, I’d like to hear as many responses as possible (Veechar is all good at the end of the day)

Thanks Again

[Guest Javanmard]

Why would everything need to have a purpose and a moral? Can't a bani just stand by its own right? Can't Maharaj just chear up his armies with some funny stories especially if those are condemned by the Mughals?

You guys have locked Maharaj in a mental prison where you don't allow Maharaj to do certain things but guess what! You're his SIkh and he is your Guru and if he wishes to write such material then I bow my head to my Guru!

Babbar Sher, you say it's pornographic but how do you define pornographic?

When I read Charitropakhyan it increases my love for Maharaj because I realise my Guru had a sense of humour despite of all the sufferings he went through! Maybe that's how you should look at it: a therapy for times of distress such as our community has been going through. Singh who laugh fight better than those who have to fight with tears!

[sikh_fauge]

Charitropakhyan is disputed by alot of scholars! In my copy of dasam granth by Professor Surinder Singh Kohli, he has excluded it because he beleives (in relation to janam sakhis and written accounts of the gurus) that this portion of dasam granth is completely out of character.

Not my view, just i think there is a clear divide..and since it was compiled after the death of maharaj ji, i think its only natural people are going to be sceptical.

[Sikher]

Fair is fair, for me its just hard to accept one part of the Gurbani such as,Chaupai and then refuse the part in front as not, to myself it's like pick and choose what suits me, and editing everything to my own thinking.

[sikh_fauge]

Aho..and thats where i think people have to then, if they accept portions from the same chapters, accept all of it.

[A.S.KANG]

fauge i must say i totally agree with u! biggy up to fauge n datz!

[Guest Sardar Moderator Singh]

Dear Forum,

On this topic, I must provide all with, what I personally regard to be distrubing news, concerning the Benti Chaupai.

The Sikh Maritime Association of Nova Scotia, Halifax, Canada (J. Tiwana being one public face from this area that some maybe familiar with) have courtesy of some Mr Randhawa, a local taxi driver, banned, yes I repeat "Banned" the recitation of Benti Chaupai Sahib.

The reasons behind his move to have this effected is the usual Kala Afghana type argument. I have been made aware of this after friends/family who live near the area/were visiting the Gurdwara discovered this instance.

For me personally this highlights the extent to which this matter of supposed scholarship can take us, we don't need the RSS to eat us up, we're quite capable of doing it ourselves.

[BabbarSher]

hmmm...RSS u say..Do u know that a minister of their's ..who wears a turban..is getting Dasam Granth published and asking people to do its prakash How come they never show the same reverence to Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Talking about RSS.....

Sardar Moderator Singh Ji...can u pls provide answers to Kala Afghaan, rather than just saying that the guy is wrong. ... Do u even know what he says >>>> !!!!

[A.S.KANG]

i am very interested to know what kala afghana says, - its its caused much of a stir in the panth - and most of us cant read his panjabi texts...

pls provide some input.

[Beast]

^Agreed. I don't have a clue about him either

[BabbarSher]

Guys I can send the Gurmukhi PDF files or upload em if the Moderators allow.. it

Please check out the discussion on http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...opic.php?t=1887

where I have given my side of the arguments

[Guest Sardar Moderator Singh]

Babbersher, the point made is not discussing Kala Afghana, I referenced him, for Mr Randhawa is someone who has brought his basic arguments and sought to stop the recitation of Benti Chaupai.

There are separate threads on the forum for discussing Kala Afghana.

This thread concerned Dasam Granth Parkash and the historical and other reasons as to why it was stopped.

The matter concerning Benti Chaupai recitation at the Maritime Sikh Society was raised since whatever Kala Afghana's arguments and those counter to him, the fact remains that Mr Randhawa himself has no authority whatsoever to stop the recitation of such Bani (an essential part of the Amrit Sanchar) at any Gurdwara -therefore mentioned here as a parallel to continuing changes, innovations and renovations being made within Sikh communal services: perhaps this is the first of many to come, afterall, Mr Randhawa is not even on the board of the Gurdwara Management, he is only a local taxi driver and has been able to make such a dramatic change.

There are more interesting facts about this Gurdwara and their innovations (such as one Mrs Sodhi, who omits "Kesh Daan" from the Ardas on the reasoning that Kesh are no longer an important part of Sikhi today), I have raised these here for all to note and discuss, whatever your view on the Dasam Granth or otherwise and to highlight the extent to which changes are being made on the ground level (outside of the comfort of the SGPC buildings, and from Kala Afghana's residence in Canada).

[BabbarSher]

Bachittar Natak Intro

Bachittar Naatak is a famous composition in the†DASAM GRANTH â€. This small booklet describes the previous incarnation of the Tenth Guru, and His long and hard worship of God in His previous life. It also describes a brief history of the Bedi and the Sodhi dynasties; the birth of Guru Gobind Singh; and a few battles. But there is no mention of the “Amrit Ceremony†or the battle of Chamkaur. The Booklet is written in Brij, but has been translated by Giani Narain Singh in Punjabi. After studying the booklet very carefully, it becomes very doubtful that the Tenth Guru could be its author. If all those questions (doubts) are discussed in the present article in detail, the article would become much larger than the Naatak itself. Therefore only the most important questions will be shared with the readers. The whole discussion in this article is based on the translation of the Naatak by Giani Narain Singh.

Comments on Bachittar Natak

A number of other questions anise about the Naatak, but because the article has already become too long, only a few more questions or comments will be shared with the readers. a. It is written in the Naatak that at the time of the birth of Gobind Rai, Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib was on a pilgrimage (visiting holy places to take a dip), and when He learned about the birth of His son, He gave donations to the Brahmans for several days at Tribaini (Allahabad) to express His joy. 7/1 Mur Pit Purab kiyas payana. Bhaant bhaant ke tirath nahana. Jab hi jaat Tribaini bhaye. Poon daan din kert bitayye. All this is completely against the Principles of Gurbani and of Guru Tegh Bahadur Himself. The other Gurus also visited holy places, but not to take dip or to give donations. They did so because there are hundreds of thousands of people gathered at the holy places, and the Gurus used that opportunity to educate them. The Gurus did donate money on other valuables to some people, not because they were Brahmans, but because they were needy and poor. Visiting holy places because they can rid you of sins or giving donations to Brahmans has been condemned by the Gurus. The following sacred Shabads play down the importance of any pilgrimage and donations to the Brahmans. Kote tirath majan ishnana is Kal mein mail bhareejai. Sadh sang jo Har goon gavai so nirmal ker leejai. (Suhi M:5) Na bheejai roopeen maaleen rang. Na bheejai tirath bhaviyan admin cut. Na bheejai daateen keetai poonn. Na bheejai baahar bathiyan soonn. (Vaar Samag M:1) Ja mein bhajan Ram ko nahi Tirath katie bert phoon rakhe neh manua bas ja ko. Nihfal dherm tahi tum manou saach kehat main ya ko. (Bilawal M:9) Tirath bert er daan ker mun mein dharre guman. Nanak nifal Jaat tih Jioun kuncher ishnan. (Salok M:9) The Tenth Master Himself was not convinced that any pilgrimage on donations can help one in his spiritual journey. He writes: Tirath kote keeye ishnan deeye bahu daan maha bert dhaare Des phiriyo ker bhes tapo dhan kes dharre na mille Har piyare. (TuvPersad Savayye)

Bedi and Sodhi Dynasties

The Bachittar Naatak describes the History of the Bedi and the Sodhi dynasties as follows. Lord Ram Chander Ji had two sons - Luv, and Kush. Kaal Rai, a descendent of Luv, and Kaal Kate, a descendent of Kush, developed some uneasy disagreement. KaaI Kate defeated KaaI Rai who fled to the State of Sanaudh where he married the daughter of the State ruler. A son was born to Kaal Rai who was named Sodhi. That is how, the Sodhi dynast;y started. After some time, the Sodhis, who were the descendents of Luv, attacked the state of KaaI Kate, and defeated the Kushis who fled to Benanas. The Kushis studied Vedas for a number of years at Benaras, and came to be called as Vedis on Bedis. After sometime, the Sodhis invited the Bedis back to their State. The Bedis narrated the Vedas to the Sodhi ruler first the three Vedas, Yajur, Rig, and the Saam - and then the fourth, Atherban. The reigning Sodhi was very pleased to listen to the Vedas because all his sins were washed away by listening. He was so happy that he left the throne, gave it to the Bedis, and banished the city to go to some forest to lead the life of a hermit. The Bedis were very happy to get the power, and they promised that when he (we could not understand which one of the Bedis) would be born as Guru Nanak in Kal Yug, he would also give the Guruship to the Sodhis. And just as he was given the power after listening to the fourth Veda after the first three, he too would transfer the Guruship to the Sodhis, after three gurus, starting with the fourth. (What a ridiculous story!) 2/28 Kaal Kate bhayo bali apara. Kaal Rai jin nagar nikara. Bhaaj Sanaudh des te gaye. Tahi bhoop ja biahat bhaye. 2/29 Tih te pootter bhayo jo dhama. Sodhi Rai dhara tih nama. Bans Sanaudh ta din te theeya. Param Pavitter purakh ju keeya. (God Himself started the Sanaudh Dynasty) 3/32 Luvi serb jeete Kushi serb haare (The Kushis fled to Benaras) Chatur Bed pathiyang keeyo Kashi basang. Ghanne barakh keene taha hi nivasang. After sometime, the Sodhis invited the Bedis back.

Battle of Bhangani and Events Therafter

When the Tenth Master was residing at Paonta Sahib, the Hills Rajahs, forced a battle on the Him. It is a long story in itself. The Tenth Master won the battle despite the fact that His Pathan soldiers played treason and defected to join the enemy forces. Describing His victory, the author of the Naatak, purporting to be the Tenth Master,writes: 8/35. Ranang tiyag bhaage. Sabhe trass paage. Bhayee jeet meri. Kirpa Kaal Teri. The Tenth Master, who always attributed his victories to God by emphasizing, “Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji ki Fateh†claims this victory to be His own. It seems very unlikely for the Tenth Master to have written something like that. However, this is not that serious. The more serious thing is the alleged action taken by the Tenth Master against the people of Anandpur Sahib when He went back there after the battle of Bhangani. The author of the Naatak writes that the Sikhs did not find rest in Paonta after the battle of Bhangani, and the Tenth Master went to the State of Kehloor where he built a village, named, Anand Pur. The people who had helped the Guru in the battle were richly rewarded, but the ones who did not help, were hung and beaten very brutally. They died a dog’s death. Others were forced to leave the town. 8/36 judh jeet aye jabbai tikai na tin pur panv. Kehloor mein bandhiyo aan Anand Pun ganv. 8/37 Je je nen toh na bhirre deene nagar nikar Je tih thaur bhale bhirre tinai ken pritpar. 8/38 Bahut divves eh bhant bataye. Sant ubhar dushat sabh ghaye. Tang tang ker hanne nidana. Kooker jim tin tajje parana. A. Can you believe that the apostle of love and kindness - the Tenth Master who served water, and who applied bandage to the wounds of even the enemies that too in the battle field can treat the innocent citizens like the way described above; and on top of that take pride on such inhumane actions? Let us not forget that the Tenth Master is the spiritual incarnation of the great Guru Nanak, who not only forgave, but also embraced hard core criminals and sinners like Sajjan

The previou incarnation of the Tenth Master

As discussed earlier, the author of the Bachittar Naatak writes that before the Tenth Master was born to Maata Gujri Ji and Guru Tegh Bahadur in Patna, He spent a lot of time at Hem Kunt Parbat to realize God by hard self discipline and worshiping God. As a result, He became one with the God. Then the God called (Guru) Gobind Singh to Him and described the whole story of the creation of the universe. Next God asked the latter to go to the Earth to spread God’s Word so that the people worship Him (God). God also wanted the Tenth Master to punish the sinners and the devil.That’s why the Tenth Master was born. The following lines from the Naatak describe the above assertion. Hum eh kaaj jagat mo aaye. Dharam het Gurdev pathaye. Jahan tahan tum dharam bitharo. Dushat dokhiyan pakar pachharo. Yahi kaaj dhena hum janmang. Samajh leyo adhu sabh manmang. Dharam chalawan sant ubharan dushat sabhan ko mool uparan. A number of questons arise from this story, however, we are afraid that raising those questions may not leave an impression of disrespect for the Tenth Master whom we adore. But the kind-hearted and intelligent readers will come to realize that our criticism is directed at the Naatak, and not at the most revered Guru Gobind Singh - the tenth spiritual incarnation of Guru Nanak. Some of the questions are as follows: a. Did the first nine Gurus not spread the Word of God? Were they asking people to worship them (the Gurus)? Time and again Guru Nanak described Himself an insignificant dhadi (bard) of Waheguru who was here to sing His (Waheguru’s) praise. He also described Himself the lowest of the lowliens. The succeeding eight Gurus did the same thing. A few sacred hymns are given below just as examples. Haoun dhadi vekaar kaare laya. Raat dihoun ke vaar dhuron furmaya Dhadi kare pasau Sabad wajaya. (Majh ki Vaar. M:1) Neechan ander neech jaat neechi hoon ut neech Jitthe neech samaliyan uthe nazar Ten bakhsheesh. (Siri Raag M:1) Haun dhadika neech jaat hore uttam jaat sadayende. Tin mangan Jo tudhe dhiayende.

God: Jealus, Imperfect

The author of the Naatak writes that the God told the Tenth Master His woeful tale that when He (the God) created the demons first, they became all too powerful and because of their power, they went crazy and became problematic. As a consequence, the importance of God, who was worthy of worship, began to weaken. 6/6 Jab pehale hum srishat bnayee. Daeet (demons) rache dushat dukhdaee. Te bhujbal bawre ho gaye. Poojat parampurakh reh gaye 6/7 Te hum tamik tanak mo khape. Tin ki thaur devta thape Te bhi bal pooja urjhaye. Aapan hi Permeshar kahaye. So, God got so mad that He destroyed them at once. Then He (God) created gods. But gods too began to call themselves God and rather than making the people worship God, they got the people to worship their might. As a result God, who was the real deserving of worship, was pushed aside, and the gods became popular. So, God was really upset with both - the demons, and the gods - and asked (Guru) Gobind Singh to go to the Earth, and make people worship Him. This story raises a number of questions, and a number of conclusions can be drawn from it which are as follows: QUESTIONS: a. Why did God make the demons first of all? Did He want to start the universe with evil souls to begin with? b. And if that is what He wanted to do, why was He surprised? What else did He expect from the demons? c. If no other living beings had been created yet (gods were created only after the demons were destroyed) whom the demons were hurting or bothering. And who acknowledged their might? d. Was God so weak that He felt threatened by the demons, and He killed them out of fear? e. Did God have no foresight that if the demons had become rebellious, the gods could also act the same way? Also, since both the demons, and the gods showed no respect for God, what was the difference between the two? f. Was God so desperate to be worshiped that He had to implore (Guru) Gobind Singh to help Him? g. If nobody worshiped God, what did the Tenth Master do to become God’s favorite? According to the Naatak, the Tenth.

Creation of the Universe

According to SGGS, God creates the universe at His own will, applying His own Laws (Hukam), but nobody can claim to know when and how the universe was created. Only God Himself knows about it; no god or goddess has any knowledge of that. a. Hukmi hoven aakar Hukam na kahiya jaee (Jap Ji) b. Kawan su wela wakhat kawan kawan thit kawan waar Kawan su rutti mahu kawan jit hoa akaar Ja Karta sirsthi kau saaje Aape janai soi (Japji)

But according to the Naatak, God took out earwax from one of His ears and created two demons - Keetabh, and Madhu. Then He took out earwax from His other ear, and created the rest of the whole universe. 2/13 Ek servan te mail nikara. Taa te Madhu Keetabh tan dhara. Dutiya kaan te mailu nikari. Taa te bhayee srishat ih saari There are dozens of questions that arise from this story about the creation of the universe. But only a few will be discussed. a. Bachittan Naatak, beyond any doubt, posits that God is not formless. Indeed, He has a body like any human being, and has two ears. b. God does not keep His body clean. His ears are so dirty that He was able to create the whole universe from the wax of one ear alone. We wonder what the present level of God’s cleanliness is! c. If God has human form, He needs some place to set feet on. Before He created the universe from the wax of His ears, what was He standing (or lying or sitting) on? Also, He created the two demons before He created the rest of the universe, so where did the two demons stand? d. The wax from one of the ears of God is masculine (mail nikara) while from the other it is feminine (mailu nikari) e. Guru Nanak’s theory about the creation of the universe (or matter) is totally different from the claim of the Naatak. In Siri Rag, Guru Nanak writes that God created gases first from Himself, which transformed into water, and then into solid. Saache te pawna bhaya pawne te jal hoye. Jal te tirbhawan (three-dimensional solid) saajia

Waheguru Kaal or Akaal

While describing the characteristics of God at the very beginning of Guru Granth Sahib (GGS) in Jap JI, Guru Nanak describes Him as “Akaal†meaning that time has no effect, whatsoever, on God. God never gets older, and He never dies. In fact, nowhere in GGS, not even once, God is referred to as “Kaal†which means both, time and death.

Even in Jaap Sahib, which is written by the Tenth Master, God is referred to as “Akaal†and not as “Kaalâ€. If ever there is a reference to God in Jaap Sahib, as “Kaalâ€, it is “Kaal of kaal†which means even death is killed (controlled) by God. In our Slogan “Bolle so nihal, Sat Sari Akaal†which is supposed to have been initiated by the Tenth Master, the reference to God is “Akaalâ€, an not “KaaIâ€. So, how can the same Guru refer to God by “Kaal†repeatedly in Bachittar Naatak only, and in none of His other writings? The following are a few examples among scores in the Naatak where God is referred to as “KaaI†1/83 Firre chaudhoon lokyang kaal chakrang. Sabhang naath naathe bharmang bhauh bakrang Kaha Ram Krishanang kaha chand soorang Sabhe haath bandhe kharre Kaal hajoorang 1/84 Kaal hee paye bhayo Bhagwan so jagat ya jag ki kala hai KaaI hee paye bhayo Barahma Shiv KaaI hee paye bhayo jugia hal 2/2 Mook oochrey Shaster khat ping girn charh jaye Andh lakhai badhro sunai jau Kaal kirpa karaye Meaning: A dumb can say all the six Shastras, and a lame can climb a mountain. A blind can see, and deaf can hear if, oh God, you show kindness. 2/10 Pritham Kaal jab kara pasara. Onkar te srishat upara. 8/34 Ranag tiyag bhage. Sabhe trass page. Bhaiijeet men. Kirpa KaaI Teri. Note: The war slogan of the 10th master is " Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh ". But here the author is referring to his own victory which is uncharacteristic of the Guru. 14/1 Serb KaaI sabh sadh ubhare. Dukh de ke sabh dokhi mare 14/5 Serb Kaal hal pita apara. Deb Kalka maat hamara.

I have edited/reproduced and articel from the internet for Benefit of AS Kang and Beast . The articel is not comprehensive and not the same as Kaala Afghan but gives a few valid points.

Akal Sahai

Babbar Sher

[BabbarSher]

Also please have a look at the following link.

P.S.: I may not agree totally with the authors views on Sarbloh Granth, as I have studied very little of the Sarbloh Granth

http://www3.sympatico.ca/devinder.chahal/journal/art009.html

and

http://allaboutsikhs.com/articles/us/001.htm

I will try to add some more ref. tommorrow

[Guest Sardar Moderator Singh]

Those interested in the opposing view to the above, please see articles by Dalip Singh and Amandeep Singh Munde where each of these questions has been taken individually and "an" answer provided.

A link will be provided shortly.

[Guest]

Its good think that we moved this topic.. i m not very knowledgeable to judge babbar sher post from kala afghana website but i can tell its contoversial and its a mis-parchar which cannot be tolerated.

I hope amrit veer ji can shed some light into babar sher recent post.

I dont think deleting/editing his post will do any good; I think amrit veer ji should debate with him regarding this.. since he knows kala afghana tactics....

[Guest]

Dear N3O Singh ji,

I have just completed my article on Sri Dasam Granth Sahib's compositions. While doing 'Paath' of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib, everyone avoids such controversies. Same was I doing. I was ignoring this thread.

After our Raagmaala thread, I will start a new thread on the compositions of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib. Till then, I will again read this thread to know how 'Babbar Sher' can be satisfied.

[Guest Maha_Pavitar]

Amrit veerji,

Should we put it back on the forum? or is any editing required..I just thought the best option at this point was to put it in the under-approval section as n30 veerji agreed with..

[Guest]

I have read last posts by 'Babbar Sher'. He is just quoting Gurbaksh Singh Kala Afghana. There is nothing new. As far I know, all the points have been replied by different pro-panthak writers. Gurbaksh Singh Kala Afghana has been discussed widely by Sikh writers: http://www.khalsaalliance.org/articles/Bip...ru_hathyaar.pdf

For more articles: http://www.khalsaalliance.org/kala.php

Gurbaksh Singh Kala Afghana has been excommunicated by Sri Akal Takht. There is ban on his books. If we discuss his writings, it will be wrong.

Here, the history has repeated itself. Do you know the story of Babu Teja Singh? (See our Raagmaala in Gurbani Steek thread). He was excommunicated by Sri Akal Takht. He used as filthy language as Kala Afghana did. Both were excommunicated by Sri Akal Takht. Even today, there are supporters of Teja Singh. Same is with Kala Afghana.

Can we allow the writings of Teja Singh and his gang to be discussed in our forum? I mean will you allow any member to discuss whether Bhagat Bani was added in Sri Guru Granth Sahib by some 'BRAHMAN' writers? Simple, we cannot. Why? Because Teja Singh was excommunicated. So is Kala Afghana. I think if I reply to 'Babbar Sher', it will be just wasting of time. In his book 'Sri Dasam Granth Darpan', Bhai Sahib Bhai Harbans Singh has already replied to such arguments. If I translate this book, what will happen to my other projects, i.e. 'Janamsakhi Sri Gur Nanak Shah ki', 'Sri Hazoori Maryada Prabodh'?

'Babbar Sher' has not been quoting to Sri Dasam Granth Sahib, but Kala Afghana. So, I think he does not know Braj Bhasha. Even Kala Afghana used the translation by Giani Narayan Singh. I am still ready to participate in this thread, if you think it can be useful. I have no problem. There is no need to research. But, will it be useful?