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Kesh?!


Guest Sehjo Kaur

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Guest Sehjo Kaur

Fateh All.

I've read so many posts relating to Hair and Facial hair and etc etc. Lalleshwari said Kesh is only the hair on the head. Can someone please clarify if Guru Ji was referring to not removing any hair from any part of your body, or just the head?! Please.

Also, the Punj Pyare from where I took Amrit said 'Roma dee beadbee nahin karni' (basically do not disrespect the pores (I think :? ) and so any hair all over your body). I was thinkin about this and God has made us in a specific way, I mean we dont have hair on our palms and hands because we use these constantly and there must be some reason.

Also, wherever we have hair on our bodies, in greater thickness in particular (genitals, skull, above eyes), these are sensitive areas, and need protection.

Sikh is about submitting to His will right? If His will and creativity is absolute, we should try to stay natural as possible right? I mean, Muslims have to shave their pubic and underarm hair cos its the Sunnah!

Just my thoughts, please discuss.

GurFateh

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"Kes Hamesh Paanch Jo Raakhe.

Tis Ko Darso Oothh Sabhaakhe."

(26th Niyaas (chapter), page 232, 'Panth Prakaash', written by 'Giyaanee Giyaan Singh', published by 'the language department, Punjab', edition 1987).

These are the 'Panch Kes': - hair on the head (including eyebrows), mustache, beard, hair on chest, and hair on under parts.

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Dear Sehjo Kaur

Sikhism is about following the will of God. First we need to understand Hukam. To understand Hukam completely one has to be rid of ego.

We are full of ego, so the real extent of His Hukam cannot be fathomed by any of us. However I think some pointers can be given.

One pointer is that Hukam means the natural order/laws like the laws which govern the Heavenly bodies etc.

I tend to view the growth of Hair as within his Hukam, however we have to take the law of genralisation and observation to decide where hair are meant to grow or not.

1. Hair in women normally will be on the Head, Pubes, armpits, legs and arms. I think this is natural and shouldnt be removed according tio sikhi principles.

If someone does, then they are doing it for vanity or sexual pleasure, and they cannot justify their actions. a mistake is a mistake. I think admission is much better than justification.

2. The body hair of women are mush softer and sparser in growth as compared to men.

3. Perhaps Women's head on the hair are longer than men (average) cause thats natures way of making up for the deficency on face.

4. Women tend to loose less hair (head) as compared to men, who normally loose more as they grow older (due to testesterone production).

5. Men's facial hair are a way for nature to separte the sexes from one another.

Left to completely pristine environments I dont think women will have excessive visible facial hair. So I dont think it is in accordance with the natural laws. the growth on face mainly is because the many pesticides etc. found in our food.

I know its a tricky situation. I mean what would an Amritdhaari girl do, and none of us have the authority to pas a judgement. provide our views.

:-)

What Causes

Unwanted Facial Hair?

Except for your lips, palms of your hands, and soles of your feet, your entire body is covered with hair follicles. On most areas of the body, hair is "peach fuzz" - thin, fine hair that is called "vellus" hair. On the head, eyebrows, underarms, and pubic areas, the female body has thick, darker hair that is called "terminal" hair.

All women have hair follicles below the skin surfaces of their face. Hair follicles are tiny openings in the skin where hair is produced. There are millions of hair follicles covering the human body, and the number of follicles each person has is set at birth.

Facial hair growth is completely normal and natural (see The Hair's Natural Growth Cycle at right). The color and thickness of naturally growing hair is mostly determined by heredity. For example, if the women in your family have dense, dark, facial hair growth, you may as well.

The Aging Process and Hair Growth

In addition to heredity, another reason facial hair may begin to grow in women is the natural aging process. Every woman has a normal amount of male hormones (called "androgens") in her body. As women age, the body produces more of these androgens. Androgens may cause beard and moustache growth in men. In some women, they may cause an increase in terminal hair growth on the chin, upper cheeks or neck area, as they grow older.

Underlying Medical Conditions and Hair Growth

Though heredity or age causes most UFH, some facial hair growth can be linked to an underlying medical condition. Some medical conditions can cause an increase in androgen production, in turn causing UFH. One cause of excess androgens in the body is obesity. Fat retains androgen, so the more overweight a person is, the more androgen is kept in the body, potentially causing some male-patterned hair growth.

Other medical causes for excessive hair growth can be disease, such as polycystic ovary syndrome, or hormonal fluctuations due to pregnancy or menopause.

Some androgen-produced facial hair that grows in a traditionally male pattern (like a moustache and beard) is referred to by doctors as "hirsutism." Androgen-produced hirsutism can be caused by heredity, or by an underlying medical condition.

AND

What are the causes of Unwanted Facial Hair?

It has been estimated that more than 40 million American women in the United States have unwanted facial hair. UFH may be caused by hereditary factors, part of the normal aging process, or by medical conditions such as androgen excess disorder or polycystic ovarian syndrome.

UFH can be different for every woman, from a few hairs on the chin, light growth on the upper lip or heavy and beard like growth. One woman may find the slightest growth on her lip or chin terribly bothersome, while another woman may have visible hair on her upper lip and it may not bother her at all. Women with excessive facial hair often experience psychological factors such as low self-esteem and embarrassment.

In 1999, over 13,000 women were interviewed about their facial hair and 45% noticed UFH within the preceding six months of the interview. One in five of these women removed the UFH at least weekly. These women came from all ethnic groups, ages and income levels.

Common causes of UFH:

Normal depending on racial and geographic origin. Different cultures and ethnic groups are more likely to have facial hair than others.

Familial. Many women notice family members with similar distribution of UFH.

Polycystic Ovary Syndrome. Abnormal ovarian function results from a hormone imbalance that can cause irregular menses, weight gain, and excess facial and/or body hair.

Menopause. Many women notice the hormonal changes that occur during menopause will predispose them to abnormal amounts of facial hair.

No known cause.

It is important to talk to your doctor about unexpected or rapid unwanted hair growth.

What are the Treatments for Unwanted Facial Hair?

A number of options for treatment of Unwanted Facial Hair have commonly been used, including: Tweezing, Shaving, Bleaching, Depillatories, Waxing, Electrolysis and Laser. There is also a new prescription cream, Vaniqua, that is the first and only prescription cream proven to slow the growth of unwanted facial hair (UFH) in women.

What is Vaniqua?

Vaniqa (eflornithine HCl) is a topical solution available by prescription that has been clinically shown to slow the growth of unwanted facial hair (UFH) in women. When applied to the areas above the lips and on the chin can slow the hair growth significantly in those areas. Women will have to continue to use their normal hair removal system, but over time you will discover that hair removal will become less and less necessary, as the hair growth dramatically slows.

Is Vaniqua safe?

Vaniqa is a safe and effective way for women to deal with unwanted facial hair. Vaniqa is also safe to be used in conjunction with women’s conventional cosmetics.

What about Side Effects of Vaniqua?

Some women experienced mild and temporary skin irritations such as redness, stinging, burning, tingling or rash in clinical studies.

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Guest Sehjo Kaur

Great points BabberSher. I disagree Lalleshwari. We shouldn't leave them alone if they are Amritdhari, because they set an example to others, and they would mislead the ones trying to practise full Rehat. So, rather than 'leaving them alone', we should approach them.

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Guest Javanmard

1.I wasn't talking about amritdharis!

2. I am just saying that beyond the obvious definition of kesh as being the hair on your head and beard for men there is a grey zone regarding the definition of what kesh is (whether it includes other hair or not) and that in the end this should be a personal option.

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Guest Sehjo Kaur

Im talking about Amritdharis. There is no grey zone, didnt you read Amrit Veer Ji's post? He proved it. Also, the Rehatnaama's point to the hair all over the body.

The obvious meaning is clear, Sikhi places great emphasis on His will.

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Guest Javanmard

well Amrit ji (and I love him to bits) mentioned panj kesh which is a Nirmala terminology and applies to men! Also the panj kesh do not include all hair and this term is used widely by a lot of Vaishnava and Shaiva sadhus as well.

There is a grey zone.

Regarding the Rahitnamas: sorry but you're wrong! I know you mean Bhai Daya SIngh's rahitnama (pind karam etc..) but it refers to the prohibition of cutting hair during shraddha after the funeral rituals! A mistranslation and poor use of Indian terminology leads some people to believe that it refers to all hair!

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Guest Sehjo Kaur

Shraddha during funeral rituals? Are you for real? Is this allowed for Guru Ji's Sikhs? You sound like a Hindu.

Well, Amrit Veer Ji made it clear that it was hair all over the body, and you havent proven Guru Ji allowed removing hair from any part of the body, so your claims are based purely on conjecture Im afraid.

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Guest Javanmard

So are yours, if you read the rahitnamas there is a clear prohibition of shaving hair during funeral rituals. The participation of Brahmins at funeral rituals is only allowed for Shajdharis. keshdharis should perform them without Brahmins! Stop calling me a Hindu because I am not! As I said eralier Amrit Bhaji used a Nirmala source and as a Nirmala myself I can tell you that the term panj kesh is used by us Nirmale only. The term panj kesh is not used earlier!!!

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Guest Sehjo Kaur

Well now you believe in not only a different Amrit for women, but also removal of hair from 'some' parts of the body for women, so what are you? I've never heard of a Guru's Sikh segregating and twisting Hukams to suit his own purpose, or to attract more people to his own little theories. You should stop misleading people, because you still havent proved any of your points.

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Guest Javanmard

I don't segregate and I don't twist! If you want to keep your hair go on sister I am no one to forbid you anything! I just read the texts as they are.

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Lalleshvari: You are taking sikhism literally.

Firstly you need to understand why we keep hair. If it is to maintain our natural form then all hair (all over our body) are Kesh. Its another if due to our own weakness we want to create a grey zone.

"The participation of Brahmins at funeral rituals is only allowed for Shajdharis. keshdharis should perform them without Brahmins"

Cooooooooool Maaaaaaaaaan: u r fantastix. Have u read Bhai Mani Singh Ji's Gyaan Ratnavali and the defination of Sehajdhaari he gives. If you had you wouldnt have given such a statement.

Really I had heard that Rehatnamas, most of em are fake, and this just prooves the point.

Even if we go by ur 'clean shaven' defination of Sehajdhaaris, where do these Brahmins come in from ??

One thing is clear man, like it or not, want to belive it or not, want to pratcice it or not, but sikhi is adhoori without Kesh :-)

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Guest Javanmard

If that makes you happy!

I think I'll just continue the debate with my brother Amrit. At least he knows what he's talking about because he actually learned the languages. bye bye

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Guest Sehjo Kaur

Well done Lalleshwari, you chose not to speak to anyone who doesn't agree with you, and to top it off you insulted Babbersher by saying he doesn't speak your language. Why are you even here Ji? At least bear with the less knowledgeable ones, who knows, we might say something which is of some worth to you?

If you want to continue a debate with one person, just use PM, why do you need us as an audience?

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Guest Maha_Pavitar

:roll: Umm..Sehjo Kaur jee..with all due respect dear sister..Veerji never said Babbar Sher doesn't speak "his language". He was merely saying Amrit veerji knows what he is talking about because he learned the languages, i.e. Gurmukhi/Punjabi, Sanskrit, Persian, etc...

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Guest Javanmard

Again this just proves to say that Sehjo should learn about epistemology!

1.I did not say BabbarSher did not speak my language I said that people here on this forum apart from Amrit bhaji haven't leant the languages necessary to analyse old Sikh texts!

2. I don't agree with Amrit Jee and I still discuss with him because I know he has read hi stuff properly and is able to have a reasoned debate without using emotional and ideological debates and insulting people by calling them Hindu! If you debate about a text: then learn the language and read the text . If you can't leave it! There are other debates on this forum that don't need scholarly knowledge!

3. And yes I intended to use pm!

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Guest Sehjo Kaur

Good to know you will have your debate privately with those who 'learn the languages'. I guess we will just have to wait for it to be explained to us.

Summeet :roll: thanks for defending your friend, but the context was clear.

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Guest Javanmard

well you could learn those languages! After all didn't Maharaj want us to be learn all our life? That way you could actually build your own opinion instead of propagating those of others!

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Guest Javanmard

I have created a list of recommended books for all those who wish to learn the languages of gurbani. see Archived discussions: resources for gurbani

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Guest Maha_Pavitar

Good to know you will have your debate privately with those who 'learn the languages'. I guess we will just have to wait for it to be explained to us.

Summeet :roll: thanks for defending your friend, but the context was clear.

Kaur?? Kee gul..please don't bring emotion into debate..You're my pyari sister and he is my pyara veerji..there is no question of friend or not..I only defend the truth. If you said that and he misunderstood I would also clear it up. Please read it again and you will see he was saying to all that these languages are vital to understanding..Can you read Shakespeare without having knowledge of Old English, history, their customs, etc? No dear sister, you can't..it won't make any sense to you even if it is in English..

We're all mature here, no use getting personal pyari bhen :)

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Got this from tapoban forum. This should clear people's doubts...

This is to clear any doubts who have been misled on hair.

I am frankly not worried what the definition of Kesh is, how its defined in Mahan Kosh or Panth Prakash.

This is what Daya Singh Rehatnama has to say.

Those who undergo the tonsure ceremony, killers of daugters, followers of Dhir Mal, the masands, the followers of Ram Rai, or those who use colour prepared from red ochre or the kusumbha flower (since these both give red and as we know Rehat Maryada does not allow Red clothing) should all pay a tanakhah of a rupee and a quarter. (62)

*DO NOT CUT ANY OF YOUR BODY HAIR.* Cut your fingernails in such a way that they do not fall into your food and render it dirty. Wash your hands and feet and sit in a clean place to eat. In your earthern cooking square, cook over a wood fire (rather than a dung one - in the pinds they use poo for fuel). (63)

BTW....these numbers given are not part of the Rehatnama since it is written in prose not verse. The numbers have been added by WH McLeod so that when looking up lines they can easily be found. WH McLeod, who attempts to bash every angle of the Sikh Rehat and translates everything as harshly as possible to try and pull apart every detail, has admitted that body hair is not to be removed.

There are many, many other Rehatnamas and historical accounts that show that hair is not to be removed.

If Guru Gobind Singh did not want his daughters to be tested, why both wearing a keski, why bother keeping your head hair, why dont you just hide away and blend into western society completely. The path of a Gursikh is as thin as a hair and as sharp as a sword, it is not easy to get Mukti. Mukti is not given to every "Sikh".

I have already said alot and I feel I can say no more. Every Singhnee knows exactly what is right and wrong, it just depends on how far they want to take the excuses they make for such a tiny thing as hair. Imagine in Dharam Rais court if you waste 8.4 million life forms of pain and start the cycle all over again, because you were vain about your hair.

Waheguru Ji Ki Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

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Every Singhnee knows exactly what is right and wrong, it just depends on how far they want to take the excuses they make for such a tiny thing as hair. Imagine in Dharam Rais court if you waste 8.4 million life forms of pain and start the cycle all over again, because you were vain about your hair.

I suppose this guy has been upto dharam raj and had a full blown debate with him ?

Serious N30 that post from Topaban has created more questions than answers. The writer infers that you will not get mukti if as a Gursikh you remove your hair.

I agree mukti is immensly important for a Gursikh, if hair was essential for mukti wouldnt has the Guru sahib put a specfic rule down, ie dont remove hair from any part of the body in Guru Granth Sahib Ji!?(please provide evidence of a shabad if you think Guru ji has done so)

If by removing a single hair, you cannot get mukti, i feel sorry for Bhagat Jaidev( he only had a bhodi).

The writer inputs a fear element into his post by saying;

in Dharam Rais court if you waste 8.4 million life forms of pain

Sounds like he wants you to keep your hair out of fear of the Dhram Raj ! :roll:

As a side note, i must say that the attitude shown towards the scholar on this forum is somewhat childish, his approach towards the Rehitname seem to be objective and based on historical fact. A couple of you peeps seemed to have teamed up against Mr L and have resorted to name calling and other derogatory comments because frankly you have no real evidence and lack knowledge to defeat Mr L's comments.

Yes, by the time u learn all of em Indian Languages,..we will be all be Buddha

You are a sikh - you learn, even when you are a bhuddha! You seem to be very passionate about Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj, so why dont you try to follow his example, he was fuent in several languages........ they wrote bani in different languages......

I would also like to add that i dont cut my hair from any body part, because i dont see the difference between my hair on my head and under my arms.

However that does not mean that im going to carry out a personal attack on Mr L and acuse him of being a hindu because i disagree with him. It means that i should analyse his evidence, and if that is in another language then tough, you want to prove him wrong then so be it, learn the new language and prove him wrong academically.

If you love your sikhi that much and feellike the wrong message is given out, then dont just sit there and moan, go learn the languages and win debates on a academic level.

Name calling is signs of ignorance and insecurity.

Gurfateh

Harpreet

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Guest Javanmard

It's funny how learning languages is taken as an insult here by some people. Regarding the question of kesh what I am saying is that from an objective point of view (languages, history etc...) is this:

a. We can say for sure that Kesh implies keeping the hair on your scalp and beard for men. The reasons for it at actually far more complex than just the whole "laws of nature" argument and are to be sought in both the Indic, Abrahamic and martial contexts and needless to say the very teachings of our Beloved Father Guru Gobind SIngh Ji.

b. Regarding other type of hair there is a grey zone and different people and institutions have different opinions about the issue and this should be respected. The reason being that kesh (keshas in Sanskrit) originally means "hair on the scalp" (see Mahankosh as well). The question is to know if the semantic dimension can be extended to other types of hair. From a grammatical and ethymological point of view this is very improbable. The very notion of panch kesh, put forward by my honorable brother Amrit, is not to be found in the writings of the Gurus and goes back to Nirmala usage. The numerical portion of this expression already indicates a conscious displacing of the original meaning of kesh, otherwise why mention 5 if kesh already means all type of hair? Also the term is used in a male ascetic context and this should be emphacised here leading to the conclusion that regarding kesh the gender-specific rulings are probably different because of the reasons I have just mentioned. When discussing this issue one should stick to Indian terms and keep a dictionary because using the English word "Hair" is very misleading. Rom, bal and kesh are simply not the same thing. Even the word rom means different things: in Braj and Sadhu Bhasha it is a pore of the body, in Panjabi it is body hair. When looking at certain shabads in Adi Guru Granth Sahib using the word rom you have to use Braj and Sadhu Bhasha and not the modern Panjabi when interpreting the meaning because these are the languages used. (You wouldn't read Shakespeare with the modern meaning of English words). The Bansavalinama says that kesh and bal are different things.

All I am saying is that this is such a complex issue that one needs to discuss it with full knowledge of the languages, contexts etc... otherwise the debate is not valid.

Regarding debates you can only debate if you and the other person have agreed on terminology and common skills. You can't discuss the issue of kesh without having the necessary background for it.

I am not here to tell people what to do or not to do. This is a debating forum so let's debate: but then play the gamne properly and get the skills!

I love Amrit because him and I don't agree on some issues but I feel positively challenged on an intellectual level because I know he has done his homework in terms of research! If some people feel offended by the simple fact that I tell them to get those skills (for their own good) then too bad! If you want to prove me wrong then acquire the skills. If you don't want to then stop moaning because you are the ones to blame for not wanting to get those skills.

Stop being emotional and get to your grammars!

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