drkhalsa Posted December 17, 2004 Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh Dear Singh ji I have some to ask from you , Recently reading Gita I came across chapter 12 and as its translation meant it seems Krishan ji is advising that to follow god in form ( in incarnation e.g Krishna) it s more perfect and easy I t really left me thinking as I was not expecting this but what ever i am sending the verse and if you could tell something it will be helpful Chapter 12: Devotional Service Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 12.1 arjuna uvāca evaḿ satata-yuktā ye bhaktās tvāḿ paryupāsate ye cāpy akṣaram avyaktaḿ teṣāḿ ke yoga-vittamāḥ SYNONYMS arjunaḥ uvāca — Arjuna said; evam — thus; satata — always; yuktāḥ — engaged; ye — those who; bhaktāḥ — devotees; tvām — You; paryupāsate — properly worship; ye — those who; ca — also; api — again; akṣaram — beyond the senses; avyaktam — the unmanifested; teṣām — of them; ke — who; yoga-vit-tamāḥ — the most perfect in knowledge of yoga. TRANSLATION Arjuna inquired: Which are considered to be more perfect, those who are always properly engaged in Your devotional service or those who worship the impersonal Brahman, the unmanifested? Chapter 12: Devotional Service Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 12.2 śrī-bhagavān uvāca mayy āveśya mano ye māḿ nitya-yuktā upāsate śraddhayā parayopetās te me yuktatamā matāḥ SYNONYMS śrī-bhagavān uvāca — the Supreme Personality of Godhead said; mayi — upon Me; āveśya — fixing; manaḥ — the mind; ye — those who; mām — Me; nitya — always; yuktāḥ — engaged; upāsate — worship; śraddhayā — with faith; parayā — transcendental; upetāḥ — endowed; te — they; me — by Me; yukta-tamāḥ — most perfect in yoga; matāḥ — are considered. TRANSLATION The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: Those who fix their minds on My personal form and are always engaged in worshiping Me with great and transcendental faith are considered by Me to be most perfect. achieve Me. BG 12.5: For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied. BG 12.6-7: But those who worship Me, giving up all their activities unto Me and being devoted to Me without deviation, engaged in devotional service and always meditating upon Me, having fixed their minds upon Me, O son of Pṛthā — for them I am the swift deliverer from the ocean of birth and death. BG 12.8: Just fix your mind upon Me, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and engage all your intelligence in Me. Thus you will live in Me always, without a doubt. BG 12.9: My dear Arjuna, O winner of wealth, if you cannot fix your mind upon Me without deviation, then follow the regulative principles of bhakti-yoga. In this way develop a desire to attain Me. BG 12.10: If you cannot practice the regulations of bhakti-yoga, then just try to work for Me, because by working for Me you will come to the perfect stage. BG 12.11: If, however, you are unable to work in this consciousness of Me, then try to act giving up all results of your work and try to be self-situated. BG 12.12: If you cannot take to this practice, then engage yourself in the cultivation of knowledge. Better than knowledge, however, is meditation, and better than meditation is renunciation of the fruits of action, for by such renunciation one can attain peace of mind. BG 12.13-14: One who is not envious but is a kind friend to all living entities, who does not think himself a proprietor and is free from false ego, who is equal in both happiness and distress, who is tolerant, always satisfied, self-controlled, and engaged in devotional service with determination, his mind and intelligence fixed on Me — such a devotee of Mine is very dear to Me. BG 12.15: He for whom no one is put into difficulty and who is not disturbed by anyone, who is equipoised in happiness and distress, fear and anxiety, is very dear to Me. BG 12.16: My devotee who is not dependent on the ordinary course of activities, who is pure, expert, without cares, free from all pains, and not striving for some result, is very dear to Me. BG 12.17: One who neither rejoices nor grieves, who neither laments nor desires, and who renounces both auspicious and inauspicious things — such a devotee is very dear to Me. BG 12.18-19: One who is equal to friends and enemies, who is equipoised in honor and dishonor, heat and cold, happiness and distress, fame and infamy, who is always free from contaminating association, always silent and satisfied with anything, who doesn't care for any residence, who is fixed in knowledge and who is engaged in devotional service — such a person is very dear to Me. BG 12.20: Those who follow this imperishable path of devotional service and who completely engage themselves with faith, making Me the supreme goal, are very, very dear to Me. Jatinder Singh ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynamic_Banda Posted December 17, 2004 Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 in short it is similar to the concept the har harjan doe ek hai (God and god like beings both are one and the same) It is like saying that a sikh is good but a GURSIKH will find it easier to attain God by following the GURU, as a manifest entity of GOD. Do you get what I mean? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted December 18, 2004 Report Share Posted December 18, 2004 The 12th chapter of the Bhagavadgita actually refers to the Bhakti vs Jnana debate. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narsingha Posted December 18, 2004 Report Share Posted December 18, 2004 Another case of quoting out of context.... The deep-seated paranoia amongst modern mainstream "SIKHS" with regard to other faiths is amazing. If you could bottle this hate, it would be 1000s of times more lethal than a desi thapar. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drawrof Posted December 18, 2004 Report Share Posted December 18, 2004 narsingha, if you are going to go to the extent of saying someone is quoting out of context, then mention what the context is (according to your level of understanding, or the level of understanding that qualifies you to make the assertion that someone is quoting out of context). again, the context this individual is the way he/she understood. There is nothing wrong with it....everything is subjective. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 18, 2004 Report Share Posted December 18, 2004 I second that drawrof. It is always good to provide context. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narsingha Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 I think you missed the point I was trying to make. Nevermind. I guess people who consider the Gita as "anti-Sikh" can argue with Bhagat Naamdev: ‘The person who contemplates upon Bharo (demonic incarnationof Shiva] is but a demon. The person who contemplates Sitla (Hindu goddess of small pox who is portrayed as riding a ass], he is as if a man riding a ass throwing dust (ie. a fool shaming himself]. I will have but the beautiful Raam (God). I will swap all your Hindu gods for the name of one God. He who contemplates "Shiva Shiva" (Who rode a bull). His worth is of a man but riding a bull whilst beating a drum (ie. a fool). He who worships the great mother Parbati (wife of Shiva). From a man he will be born a woman. You say primal goddess is Bhavani. Where is she in the time of giving salvation (ie. she has no power to grant salvation - only God has this power). Grasp the teachings of the Guru (Highest God) Oh friend (ie, referring to the Brahmin Pundit). Pleads Namdev, that this the teaching of Bhagvad Gita. Adi Guru Durbar, Raag Gaund, Pa.874 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drawrof Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 dr.khalsa, please elaborate on how what krishan ji is saying is anti-sikh? First and foremost, krishan ji bhagwan predates the birth of guru nanak dev ji by thousands of years... the srimad bhagavat gita, has no stance AGAINST sikhi as it predates sikhi. If discussed in a referential or modern context, the best thing to do is actually see who, where, and how the bhagavad gita has been utilized or transliterated by sikhs. Further, anything can threaten absolutely anything, if you give it the chance to. In living as a gursikh, we are constantly fighting agianta, avidya, and our rogues ().....we are not fighting philosophies as we are gursikhs...guru nanak and our 10 patshah's clearly could because their thought, life accomplishments, state of existence, and mindset was unparamounted and we, at the end of the day, are their sikhs. The guru's showed us the path, and equipped us with what we needed to know to survive, ....it is upto us to make the use of the karams we have been given. In conclusion, baba nand singh worshipped guru granth sahib ji as great gursikhs between 1469-1708 worshipped our guru (while in their bodily forms), and baba nand singh received pratakh darshan of guru nanak devji. Does that mean that he was anti-sikh? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karmjeet Posted December 19, 2004 Report Share Posted December 19, 2004 good post drawrof 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sardar Moderator Singh Posted December 20, 2004 Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 Please continue with this discussion, however should anyone wish to begin a discussion on Baba Nand Singh, the Nanaksar Movement and its practices (past and present), please pm me, as we shall shortly begin a discussion 101 thread if people are interested in learning about them. Thanks, SMS 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drkhalsa Posted December 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2004 dr.khalsa, please elaborate on how what krishan ji is saying is anti-sikh? First and foremost, krishan ji bhagwan predates the birth of guru nanak dev ji by thousands of years... the srimad bhagavat gita, has no stance AGAINST sikhi as it predates sikhi. If discussed in a referential or modern context, the best thing to do is actually see who, where, and how the bhagavad gita has been utilized or transliterated by sikhs. Further, anything can threaten absolutely anything, if you give it the chance to. In living as a gursikh, we are constantly fighting agianta, avidya, and our rogues ().....we are not fighting philosophies as we are gursikhs...guru nanak and our 10 patshah's clearly could because their thought, life accomplishments, state of existence, and mindset was unparamounted and we, at the end of the day, are their sikhs. The guru's showed us the path, and equipped us with what we needed to know to survive, ....it is upto us to make the use of the karams we have been given. In conclusion, baba nand singh worshipped guru granth sahib ji as great gursikhs between 1469-1708 worshipped our guru (while in their bodily forms), and baba nand singh received pratakh darshan of guru nanak devji. Does that mean that he was anti-sikh? Dear Singh ji Thanks to you and all others for your responses now i try to explain what troubled me Actually a per my present understanding( offcourse it may be wrong) In sikh religion we are only devotee of akal purakh and our guru ji is our guide and we dont literaly dont worship any form About Baba Nand ji I dont want to say that whether he was wrong or right as I am in no position to do so , but now the problem is how to deal with such problem and only answer I have is our guruji teaching which prohibit us from worshiping them and they never allowed it in their human form so I would like to follow their advise and will not worship there SHABAD form ( Guru Granth Sahib Ji ) but it will bw my sould guiding force About Krishan ji in Gita Arjuna inquired: Which are considered to be more perfect, those who are always properly engaged in Your devotional service or those who worship the impersonal Brahman, the unmanifested? arjun is refering here AKAL Purakh as impersonal bhrahman The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: Those who fix their minds on My personal form and are always engaged in worshiping Me with great and transcendental faith are considered by Me to be most perfect. achieve Me. BG 12.5: For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied. In these lines Krishji is placing himself above the akal purakh and advising to his devotional service rather than worshiping akal purakh in short it is similar to the concept the har harjan doe ek hai (God and god like beings both are one and the same) It is like saying that a sikh is good but a GURSIKH will find it easier to attain God by following the GURU, as a manifest entity of GOD. Do you get what I mean? I t may appear so but infact it is not exactly same Our guru ji never directed sikhs toward their own personality in any sense but always directed them towards the AKAL PURAKH While Krishan ji here is clearly telling devotee to worship him So following the guru and worshiping the guru is two different concept at least for me Another case of quoting out of context.... The deep-seated paranoia amongst modern mainstream "SIKHS" with regard to other faiths is amazing. If you could bottle this hate, it would be 1000s of times more lethal than a desi thapar. I think you missed the point I was trying to make. Nevermind. I guess people who consider the Gita as "anti-Sikh" can argue with Bhagat Naamdev: ‘The person who contemplates upon Bharo (demonic incarnationof Shiva] is but a demon. The person who contemplates Sitla (Hindu goddess of small pox who is portrayed as riding a ass], he is as if a man riding a ass throwing dust (ie. a fool shaming himself]. I will have but the beautiful Raam (God). I will swap all your Hindu gods for the name of one God. He who contemplates "Shiva Shiva" (Who rode a bull). His worth is of a man but riding a bull whilst beating a drum (ie. a fool). He who worships the great mother Parbati (wife of Shiva). From a man he will be born a woman. You say primal goddess is Bhavani. Where is she in the time of giving salvation (ie. she has no power to grant salvation - only God has this power). Grasp the teachings of the Guru (Highest God) Oh friend (ie, referring to the Brahmin Pundit). Pleads Namdev, that this the teaching of Bhagvad Gita. Adi Guru Durbar, Raag Gaund, Pa.874 ear singh ji you may be absolutely right but Actually this is translation done by Praopadh the founder of ISKCON International Krishna counciousness and i agree with you that they are misquoting Gita and that the reason I was looking for help ( as I dont know sanskrit ) but I tried other version of translation of Gita but all say the same thing The Help you have done me is by qouting SGGS as I always look for guidance in any problem from GURUJI Thanks for that and now it is clear in my mind that what the real teaching of gita is But still I would say that after reading three translation that in any case This qoute in Gita may not be anti Sanatan ,sikhi but atleast very confusing :roll: Actually I have some friend who are hindu by religion and also follow ISKON and SO it created my interest in it and it is not deep seated paranoia but just inquistiveness but that only problem they ( ISKON)have is that they believe in Krishna as supreme GODhead and rejects the Idea of AKAL PURAKH so I was looking for the answer to convince them and not actually myself . Rest it is very interesting that ISKON also rejects thae demi gods and hereditary caste system and may more things but they have their horns locked with sikhism on the issue of Akal Purakh :cry: Any way thanks to you all 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted December 23, 2004 Report Share Posted December 23, 2004 learn Sanskrit. when you have we can start this conversation again in 4 years. ps. ISKCON translations suck (my Sanskritist point of view) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drkhalsa Posted December 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2004 learn Sanskrit. when you have we can start this conversation again in 4 years. ps. ISKCON translations suck (my Sanskritist point of view) Very Smart 8) 1st thing I have many other imporatnt things to learn yet sanskrit is no where on the list And if I somehow I thought of it I dont think it will take me 4 years to do that anyway yoiu posted two replies to the post Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 1:09 pm Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- learn Sanskrit. when you have we can start this conversation again in 4 years. ps. ISKCON translations suck (my Sanskritist point of view) The 12th chapter of the Bhagavadgita actually refers to the Bhakti vs Jnana debate. And i dont think they were of any help to me or any body reading the post so please try to write something useful and try to use the sanskrit you have learned to help others like me but any way it is your own choice 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbreakable Posted July 7, 2005 Report Share Posted July 7, 2005 . 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAadmin Posted July 7, 2005 Report Share Posted July 7, 2005 unbreakable, This is - "1. Hinduism/Other Indian religious traditions' section and we are discussing different religions... I hope in your dictionary just discussing about geeta or reading geeta to get more knowledge is not - Manmat..if it is then i must recommend you to join other wahabi type of forums. This forum apperciates- peace and harmony towards other religion by discussing other religion, traditions, school of thoughts or reading upon it so the ignorance can be vanished. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SAdmin Posted July 7, 2005 Report Share Posted July 7, 2005 I hear and read how “Brahmins†never allowed people to read their texts and teaching of Sanskrit were only limited to high caste Hindus. But in this centaury when there is no restriction still people have not made any efforts to learn them. I think it is hypocrisy on our part that we do not take the benefit of having good resources that are available to us freely these days but mostly busy in preaching our political propaganda. It’s about time we leave whining and see the reality and take some actions. If you do not mind then start from Sanskrit Saloks the ones you find in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harpreet Posted June 19, 2007 Report Share Posted June 19, 2007 Gita is supposedly to be the nearest spritual scripture and is said to be the closeast to SGGS.[prof. Sher singh] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xylitol Posted June 19, 2007 Report Share Posted June 19, 2007 The Gurus are avtars of Waheguru, so worshipping the sargun form of waheguru in the form of the Gurus cannot be wrong. However, it does seem to me that there is a progression from sargun worship to nirgun worship... The Gurus de-emphasized themselves to teach us nimarta. According to Gyani Takhur Singh ji, they also did it to prevent other people from going around claiming to be God. Most avtars from previous ages are in fact Shiva ji, and not Waheguru, so it is different for that reason as well. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nimarta da daan bakhso Posted June 21, 2007 Report Share Posted June 21, 2007 About Baba Nand ji I dont want to say that whether he was wrong or right as I am in no position to do so , but now the problem is how to deal with such problem and only answer I have is our guruji teaching which prohibit us from worshiping them and they never allowed it in their human form so I would like to follow their advise and will not worship there SHABAD form ( Guru Granth Sahib Ji ) but it will bw my sould guiding force There was a big samagam once in the time of Sant Bhindrawale about ur thoughts about the ten gurus, Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Akal Purkh. Many ppl said Akal Purkh sent Guru Granth Sahib Ji as hukum for us and the gurus to spread it. Sant Bhindrawale said no, that is saying that Guru Granth Sahib Ji being the hukum is lower than Akal Purkh and The gurus are lower because they are just spreading hukum. Sant ji said Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Akal Purkh, and The Gurus are all one and same. (sorry off topic 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kharag Singh Posted July 1, 2007 Report Share Posted July 1, 2007 the greatest misconception about the geeta that most sikhs have is when shri krishna says that "i am god" one fails to realise that its not shri krishna speaking to arjun but akaal purukh, showing that anyone can have religious experience with the divine. Just as when Pehle Patshah had countless such experiences with the divine during his life in the form of amrit bani decending from the heavens. There fore Shri Krishna wasnt saying that he is God but it was God in its glory discoursing with Arjun! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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