Jassa Posted May 25, 2003 Report Share Posted May 25, 2003 waheguruu ji kaa khalsa waheguruu ji ke fateh!! i know this topic has been rinsed on but its still needs discussing... some people believe this is bani, others dont... the Akal Takht choose not to really comment on it and say that you can read it if you want, or not if you feel against it?? what does the sangat believe?? ok well...i look forward `to what you have to say.... fateh ji!! for those that dont know i reccoment you go look it up... but sum basic info is that it is the last part of the guru granth sahib... sikh opinion is split over wether it is bani.... it was written by a poet called Alam...and appears in a book called 'Kaam Kundlaa'....im sure most can figure what its about... ok so i was wondering... if its bani...how come it comes behind mundaavnee?? which means seal? or marking the end of guru granth sahib... i cant b bothered to think... but can we have some informed responses from the sangat... not just ....what is raagmala!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurfateh Singh Posted May 26, 2003 Report Share Posted May 26, 2003 Lets see our panth suitation in last 20 yrs or so- 1. Less Faith in sikhi and gave up kesh and become mona in 1984.. possibly settled in canada and uk now have power of surrey gurughar... where they created table and chairs issue 2. People who were khalistanis and become anti-khalistan and govertment agents..Again Less Faith and greed for money!!! 3. Panth started gettin divided among sgpc.. sell out peeps.. creating issues like women seeva etc... akal takth jathedars clean indian govt shoes with their dharis 4. Few groups within nihangis calling emselves sher when they had no contributions whatsoever at the times of 84 where panth need more heads!.. slandering the shaheeds by calilng em fanatics. 5. Akj infiltration in western countries...calling kesh as keski.. distorting gurbani (ie- rejection of rag malla in sggs) and also distorting different musical ragas with their own ones...distorting shastar vidiya by puttin forgein martial arits into of what they soo called "gatka" . AKJ USING MONOPLIC WAY OF PROVING THATS IS WRONG TO EAT MEAT!!! ITS THEIR WAY OR HIGHWAY!!! AND ALSO REJECTION OF SANTS... THAT SANTS DONT JUST EXIST !! any1 like to add some more!!!!!!!!!! Three reasons for all this--- 1. GREED FOR MONEY. 2. LESS FAITH IN SIKHI 3. DOUBTS, DOUBTS AND DOUBTS.. DOUBT EVERYTHING AND ANYTHING...TABLE AND CHAIRS TO KESKI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted May 26, 2003 Report Share Posted May 26, 2003 hey hey hey hey guys i am a soon to be akj lol (but still KHALSA most importantly) i BELIEVE in rag malla bhai randhir singh actually believed in rag malla also. this is not a well known fact but it is written in the autobiography of one of the taksaali jathedars, i think sant kartar singh bhindranwale (was there such a person?) however the akj generally do not believe rag malla. but it is not only akj who do not believe in rag malla, and it is not required to reject rag malla. i didnt like that akj bashing at the end you know. you can bash akj when you have soared to the spiritual heights of the likes of bhai randhir singh ji, who is possibly one of hte most spiritually advanced people we have had for 100s of years, or laid down your life for the panth like bhai fauja singh. "Akj infiltration in western countries" oh come on. you mean "people understanding the philosophy behind the points of contention in the rehit maryada that are similar to that of akj view? "...calling kesh as keski.." as per bhai chaupa singhs rehitnama and the vahees of the bhatt which are recognised as the most reliable sources? and also through the darshan from guru gobind singh that bhai randhir singh ji received? and subtley implied by rehitnamas of bhai daya singh and bhai prahlad singh? yep. others such as bhai rama singh had darshan from guru gobind singh saying KESKI is KAKKAR before they even heard of the akj or grew their hair! (read in search of the true guru by bhai rama singh) before 1930s all ladies were required to wear keski. now the rules have been eased off and no women care....and who is keeping the tradition alive? "distorting gurbani (ie- rejection of rag malla in sggs)" that is a fault of the jatha thru misunderstanding, not that of bhai randhir singh "and also distorting different musical ragas with their own ones" you what? akj kirtan is really beautiful. no, REALLY beautiful. everyone knows that. "...distorting shastar vidiya by puttin forgein martial arits into of what they soo called "gatka" ." oh here come the nihungs. whose fault is it that martial arts isnt well known by the sikhs? well the nihungs arent teaching many. the brits killed half the nihungs too. people like bhai fauja singh were teaching something which they thought was right. gatka might not be as good as shastar vidiya but at least its brought some people into learning how to use a kirpan......and what about the nihungs...who distort khalsa by saying jhatka and bhaang (weed) is ok? and the dasam and sarabloh granths arent just granths but GURUS? "AKJ USING MONOPLIC WAY OF PROVING THATS IS WRONG TO EAT MEAT!!!" WHAT!!!! sarbat khalsa rahit, probably the most reliable rahit (damdami taksal), even some nihung jatha rahits say MEAT IS NOT ALLOWED. if you think its ok to eat beef chicken or whatnot when guru arjun, guru tegh bahadur, guru gobind singh and banda singh bahadur all give hukamnamas not to, plus (altho controversy of) condemnation of meat in SGGS, then go ahead..and have some bhaang while yah at it! "ITS THEIR WAY OR HIGHWAY!!! AND ALSO REJECTION OF SANTS... THAT SANTS DONT JUST EXIST !!" the word sant is surely over used today. its hard enough being a sikh never mind a sant. bhai randhir singh was indeed a saint but he was never called sant randhir singh because he was still human.....only the gurus are superhuman. maan the akj have done so much seva for the panth. what have YOU done for the panth? we have no right to condemn anything in sikhi unless it is 100percent crystal clear it is wrong. not just because we dont understand why someone believes something. think like a child does, n keep an open mind. best way 2 learn in sikhi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted May 26, 2003 Report Share Posted May 26, 2003 lol just one more thing......your other points contradict your akj hating! "1. Less Faith in sikhi and gave up kesh and become mona in 1984.. possibly settled in canada and uk now have power of surrey gurughar... where they created table and chairs issue" akj are completely with akal takht on this one. akj also have the strictest rahit around. "2. People who were khalistanis and become anti-khalistan and govertment agents..Again Less Faith and greed for money!!!" babbar khalsa are pro khalistan. they are essentially extreeeeme akjers. "3. Panth started gettin divided among sgpc.. sell out peeps.. creating issues like women seeva etc... akal takth jathedars clean indian govt shoes with their dharis" but jathedars like bhai sukhdev singh babbar fought for the panth! and akj doesnt like sgpc much either! "4. Few groups within nihangis calling emselves sher when they had no contributions whatsoever at the times of 84 where panth need more heads!.. slandering the shaheeds by calilng em fanatics." slandering shaheeds like bhai talwinder singh, bhai fauja singh, bhai sukhdev singh.....all akj.....n bhai im not saying u completely did....but by dismissing akj views harshly u did sorta semi nindya on bhai randhir singh too....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jassa Posted May 26, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 26, 2003 u knw wat.... it aint good 2 go all anti on any jatha... your beliefs are different... and khalsa souljah before you speak about someone i suggest you find ALL the facts... bhai randhir singh did NOT believe in raagmala no matter what book you read it in... ive spoken with puratan akj singhs on this topic, as well as baba thakur singh. go and read all of bhai randhir singhs books... seriously tho its not good for you to criticise any jatha under the umbrella of akal takht. i want info not slanderous comments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kaur1699 Posted May 26, 2003 Report Share Posted May 26, 2003 what does the sangat believe?? I am all for the Raag Mala. I have come across a lot of "for's" and "againt's" for this topic over the years. There are a lot of people saying things for it and against it... I have not seen any conclusive information/evidence that is against the Raag Mala (although a lot has been said) and therefore am all for it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A_Singh_but_cant_Sing Posted May 27, 2003 Report Share Posted May 27, 2003 Gur Fateh!! I think I wasted my time reading all this. I just seen you guys just slandering each other, which I thought was a waste of time. As to these really contraversial issues, I think that they should not be discussed because this never yields a definite answer. There will be ppl stuck on their view and one cannot change that, it only creates more hatred between the both parties. This is a discussion forrum and things these things should be discussed, but what about the new comers to sikhi? How confused will they be? They will just think sikhi today is a bunch of people just slandering each other and at the end of it, all is for nothing. Sorry If I have offended anyone. I have little or no brains, so all this just gets to me quickly. Take it easy :wink: Gur Fateh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted May 27, 2003 Report Share Posted May 27, 2003 jassa go to the fauj.3giga ragmalla page. it pretty much destroys any anti ragmalla theory. there is a scan from i think kartar singh bhindranwales book. it clearly states that after bhai sahib met kartar singh bhindranwale he now believed in ragmalla after reading the subtle spiritual meanings. it also says that after taking amrit from teja singh he believed the gurmantar was wahguru rather than waheguru but corrected his belief on this also. the author of the page aswell says there are no books written after the visit by bhai sahib on ragmalla. so therefore we can conclude one of two things: 1. bhai randhir singh did believe in ragmalla after his beliefs were corrected. 2. the jathedar of the damdami taksal is lying, which is rather a knock to the credibility of the taksal and a saint. take yah pick......i know which one im choosing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagroop Singh Posted May 27, 2003 Report Share Posted May 27, 2003 Gurfateh oh no....here we go. a spiritually advanced Gursikh once said to me: 'if something you are about to say is not positive and good, don't say it...' obvious teaching really...but practising it makes a real difference. why bash different jathebandi...why look for the non-existent 'holy grail' of the one rehat, by trying to shine a negative light on others. when we really get into our Gursikhi, and start to really feel, experience and project it towards others, all these issues will then show their true nature...pointless exercises. when the naujawan all begin to say "although we may have different views, we are all united under the kesri nishan sahib of 10th Nanak"; that will be a day of revolution. ps - moderators should perhaps issue some guidelines on Jathebandi-bashing so that poeople who read all this will not leave the group...i've left groups before because of the negativity that some people seem to thrive upon when it comes to criticising those with different attitudes. Gurfateh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jassa Posted May 27, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2003 i should never have asked this.. its definately a messed up era of sikhi when singhs are slandering another jathebandi that is only really looking out for the interests of the panth... just as most of them are.... and khalsa souljah...dont believe everything on the net... youll realise ne day that people will change quotes or make up quotes that never existed... go and ask some singhs that were around in bhai randhir singhs era... like bhai mehar singh, giani nahar singh, giani amolak singh etc.. they will all tell you, and more conclusively than any book.... they are all chardi kala gursikhs and not the type to amke something up...so go see what they say at an akj smagam. im not even akj...but i believe they do good work, and i wouldnt criticise any jathebandi, as they are all trying to better the panth in their own way. and khalsa souljah, who told you that akj dont say you cant read raagmala... its in their rehit maryada...my uncle took amrit from akj in india, and he was told not to read raagmala... whatever the panj pyaareh tell you, you have to listen so if i were you id think before you go and take your amrit from them, if you dont believe in their rehit.. i know all amrit is one...but yoour hukam from your punjh pyaareh is sacred, and you definately cant pick and choose. and id liek to second the jagroop singhs request.. if you immediately lock down on a personal attack, you to delete posts which are anti any jathebandi... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted May 27, 2003 Report Share Posted May 27, 2003 i aint bashing any jatha!!!!!! its very likely that any ideas people got on bhai randhir singh were from before he got put in jail. after he got let out, teja singh was excommunicated and bhai sahib severed his relationship with him. therefore it is probably around htis period he started questioning what teja singh had tought him - gurmantar, ragmalla. the biography of kartar singh bhindranwale (is that the right guy?) still stands...i have seen the scan from hte book in punjabi myself - either he was lying or bhai sahib believed rag malla! youve got to choose one or the other! r u absoultely sure the akj panj tell u not to recite ragmalla.....if so then are there any other jathas which believe keski is a kakkar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jassa Posted May 27, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2003 akj is 100% anti raagmala...cnt recite wid dem...at akj akhand path ull never hear it...dno bout othe jatheh?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted May 27, 2003 Report Share Posted May 27, 2003 how comes alot of times when bhai randhir singh went gurdwara they recited it there n he didnt mind then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagroop Singh Posted May 28, 2003 Report Share Posted May 28, 2003 Gurfateh perhaps he believed in the concept of 'live and let live'. i don't believe that any Gurmukh would enforce their ideas upon anyone else...that is not in keeping with Gurmat. Gurfateh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted May 28, 2003 Report Share Posted May 28, 2003 i have asked on akj message board and also a relative if the panj tell u not to recite ragmalla.... and they DO NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT RAGMALLA on the day of amrit so this means i can still recite it when i take amrit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sukhasingh Posted July 29, 2003 Report Share Posted July 29, 2003 The AKJ don't Sing Raags, how are they meant to comprehend "Raagmala" More like Drum and Bass, mixed with the latest Bollywood tunes :bling: Dil To Paagal Hai The Raag Knowlege has been lost, thanks to the waja which is a European instrument that can't handle the Classical Indian raag system . And those that promote the use of it :cry: me included They call it "Kangari Baja" (like a prositute because eveyone can have a go and its easy to play) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khandaydhaar Posted July 29, 2003 Report Share Posted July 29, 2003 More like Drum and Bass, mixed with the latest Bollywood tunes :bling: Dil To Paagal Hai sore head! oouch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narsingha Posted July 29, 2003 Report Share Posted July 29, 2003 Baba Gurbachan Singh Bhindrawaley produced a vast and detailed work that destroys the notion that "Raagmala is not Gurbaani". This work was produced by Baba Gurbachan Singh ji to vanquish the lies and untruths started by the likes of Teja Singh Bhasauria and his followers. The entire text is being translated into English and will be available on www.sarbloh.info in the near future, along with a vast section on Gurmat Sangeet. Would the AKJ or for that matter other Sikhs question the work of Baba Gurbachan Singh Bhindrawaley (who incidentally was a Nihang Singh of the Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa 96 Crore Budha Dal Chalda Vaheer)? :wink: Incidentally, this work is not to "attack the AKJ" (as people may have you belive). It is to bring the truth into the light. Whether the truth is appealing or not depends what camp you're in...that of the truth...or untruth tick tock tick tock....time bomb is ticking away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sukhasingh Posted July 29, 2003 Report Share Posted July 29, 2003 Don't believe you Mr Narsingha the work of Baba Gurbachan Singh Bhindrawaley (who incidentally was a Nihang Singh of the Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa 96 Crore Budha Dal Chalda Vaheer)? I any taksali's out there can vouch for this ? :shock: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted July 29, 2003 Report Share Posted July 29, 2003 WEll Baba Gurbachan Singh Bhindranvale was a Nihang before he joined Sant Sundar Singh's Taksal. His Nihang Gurdev was Bhai Tara Singh. If you want to check see Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranvale's biography written by his famous disciple Singh Sahib Kirpal Singh Jathedar of Akal Takhat. The title of the book is Gurmukh Darshan On Raagmala, there is no discussion: IT IS BANI AND WHOSOEVER DOUBTS IT IS NOT A SIKH. THIS MEANS AKJ ARE NOT SIKHS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Gur Bar Akaaaaaaaaaaaaalllllllllllllll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hari Posted July 29, 2003 Report Share Posted July 29, 2003 This is for Khalsa Soulja, AKJ members, and anybody esle who hasn't noticed what I'm about to tell you: EVER NOTICED THE NUMBERS MENTIONED IN THE RAAG MALA? Well, just to remind you, Raag Mala goes like this: 6 Raag 30 Raagini 48 Raag Putra Okay, so far so good.Now add those numbers together: 6 + 30 + 48 = 84 :!: :!: Now, are you getting this AKJ??Getting it yet.Yes?No? 84, 84, 84.Come on!Yes that's right LAKH CHAURASI.CHAURASI. Get it now?84 is a number that occurs again and again in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.It's a very significant number as you all know. I hope this has opened the eyes of some people out there. STOP THIS DOUBT NOW.STOP, OR YOU'LL GET PUNISHED.Whoever goes against Guru is not a Sikh, but a dushman of Guru.Man, I tell you, I went to an Akhand Path recently.When it came to the Bhog, an AKJ woman was reading, and she stopped before Raag Mala.They had to hurriedly get someone to read Raag Mala.Is that be-izzati of Guru Sahib or what.That was a paap committed by the AKJ woman as far as I know.Maha-paap. It is Maha-paap for any Sikh to doubt any Guru Granth Sahib, Dasam Granth and Sarb Loh Granth.If you don't get it, then you don't get it.Sat Sri Akal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted July 29, 2003 Report Share Posted July 29, 2003 I suggest we start a movement to get AKJ kicked out of the Panth once for all. They can have their own stuff if they want just like Radhasoamis but they are not SIkhs. Defeat to the blasphemeous heretics! Victory to the Truth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :twisted: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narsingha Posted July 29, 2003 Report Share Posted July 29, 2003 Baba Gurbachan Singh Bhindrawaley spear-headed the movement to destroy those who oppose the Raagmala. He, being a Nihang Singh of the Budha Dal, had the full backing of the Sanatan Sikh world with regards to this issue. ...once his work is revealed to the Sikh world on www.sarbloh.info, with regards to the Raagmala being authentic, all doubts will be removed. :twisted: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narsingha Posted July 29, 2003 Report Share Posted July 29, 2003 Please visit the following: http://www.sarbloh.info/htmls/durbar_adi2.html There are 2 photographs taken of a Swaroop of Adi Guru Durbar that dates to Samat 1832 (AD 1775 - around 60 years after Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh Ji ascended to Sach Khand) that shows both the Japji Sahib (top pic) and Raagmala (bottom pic). Please right-click on the 2nd picture, and select "Zoom In" from the pop-up menu and scroll to the date on the right-hand page to confirm this date. This simply ONE Swaroop amongst MANY Puratan Birs that have the Raagmala within it (contrary to the claims of the AKJ "Literature"). Could the AKJ please explain the existance of the Raagmala within this Purataan Bir for starters. :roll: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.Singh Posted July 29, 2003 Report Share Posted July 29, 2003 lalleshvari I suggest we start a movement to get AKJ kicked out of the Panth once for all. They can have their own stuff if they want just like Radhasoamis but they are not SIkhs. Defeat to the blasphemeous heretics! My friend i think you're being a little harsh here. I'm sure there are many AKJers who are very devoted to the panth. however, a little misled with regards Raag mala. Such posts will only cause Resentment. We dont need more Squabbling within the Panth, we need Education. Narsingha - thanks for the pics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts