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Raagmala


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"admin cut, now you agree with baba gurbachan singh? even though he was clearly against your use of chatka and bhang? "

- (some morong calling himself) Akali Sirtor Singh Khalsa

Errm, try not to lower the tone of the thread, and secondly state your proof for such a claim.

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I can't say anything about that saroop photographed unless the location of it is given and its history is also described.

But if this saroop does have ragmala, I'm not sure what it proves. Panjab Times published a photograph of a saroop that had other non-BaaNee before ragmala appeared in an issue last fall. I have that photograph still. I know Singhs in India that have saroops without ragmala.

See, at that time, people did indeed add extra things to saroops. Many saroops that are very puraatan have "siahhee kee vidh" or recipe for ink. Many others have the shabad "Jit dar lakh muhammadaa(n)" and others have Shabads by Mira Bai. These are all puraatan saroops, but have extra things added. Oddly enough though, ragamala always follows the extra stuff.

Anyways, providing a picture of one saroop, without giving any information on the saroop is no proof of anything. Like I said, if this saroop has ragmala, others do not. Unless you're claiming this is the original Damdami Beerh, ragmala being present in this beeR proves nothing.

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Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh

I think we should always look at both sides of the story. One of my veers stated that senior members of akj said Bhai Randhir Singh never agreed to Rag Mala. I counter this statement not with hatred but with the truth, we read Rag Mala infront of Bhai Jeevan Singh and he sat there and listened in Toronto. Bhai Jeevan Singh also stayed in Taksal during Sant Kartar Singhs time and was also a student of Sant Baba Nand Singh Nanaksar. I know for a fact that a good percentage of akj does read Rag Mala, and if I am not wrong majority of akj uk reads it as well. I think akj should start reading it because they are really contradicting themselves, one they say they follow Akal Takat but Akal Takat reads it. Bhai Randhir Singh even agreed in believing Rag Mala, you can ask senior chardi kala Taksal singhs which were present. This issue has been resolved many times but certain senior akj members still decide to go their own path and do not agree. In 1986 (Sarbat Khalsa) the truth came foward once again in front of the whole panth. They put two different parcheean(papers) one pro rag mala and the other saying anti rag mala in the sarovaar at Sach Khand Sri Darbar Sahib(Har ki Pauri was the exact spot) and the pro rag mala paper was choosen. For more info on why Rag Mala is bani follow the link on www.damdamitaksal.org.

Sant Gurbachan Singh had prem with every jathay bandi, Nihangs called him Nihnag, Nirmalay called him Nirmala and even akj use to have alot of respect for Santji. He had love for any jathay bandi. He especially liked Nihang singhs, he would keep a couple nihangs with him all the time. Even to this say there are always Nihung singhs learning from Taksal. Nihung singhs and Taksal have a very tight background because after all the jangs(battles) were finished they came to Damdama Sahib and began to learn more about Gurbani. Dam means to take a breath, so the singhs finally got a breath from all the fighting and began learning more gurbani and this is where Damdami Taksal began. Someone said that Taksal is totally against chatka and sukha, this statment is incorrect. Taksal does not promote chatka nor does it promote sukha but at the same time it does not oppose these issues. Nihungs have always been a part of the panth, Taksal stand on chatka is to do it in necessary situations. I know that singhs in Taksal also do Ragra and make Shardayee on a regular basis but without sukha because there is no need for it. People who say sukha is a drug are wrong because to a certain extent everything is a drug if it is abused. Using Sukha to get high is wrong but to put a few leaves in Shardayee will not give you a high, once again Taksal trys to avoid the use of a sukha though......sorry for the off topic discussion.

So lets not be ignorant, every read Rag Mala and clear all these other differences we have and fight the real problems the sikh panth has.

RAG MALA IS BANI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Jasdev Singh

Shaheed Baba Deep Singh Gatka Akhara

Damdami Taksal Toronto

Jatha Bhindra Metha

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Jasdev Singh,

I was wondering why the close companions of Bhai Sahib were never informed by him that he accepted ragmala? I think it's deluded to think that the Singhs in Jatha have some agenda to never accept ragmala, and if Bhai Sahib came to such a realisation, then he surely would have shared it with other close Singhs. But no. All the close companions continued to reject ragmala. Who was closer to Bhai Sahib then Baoo Mul Singh jee and Baba Surjan Singh jee? No one. They rejected ragmala. So then why didn't Bhai Sahib tell them?

As for Bhai Jeevan Singh jee: was he to run away when ragmala was read? What would have been the suitable action? If you ask Bhai Sahib wether ragmala is baaNee he'll say it is not.

And finally, regarding the parcheean to settle the ragmala issue: If this was a Panthic decision, why is this the first time I've ever heard of it? Why hasn't Akaal Takhat implemented this decision in the whole Panth?

A Panthic decision is one where everyone is consulted and the outcome is made known to all and implemented. This was no panthic decision.

And finally, I don't understand the concept of maas being a bujjer kurehit but then in some circumstances it being ok. That's like saying, cutting kes is a bujjer kurehit but if it comes down to saving your life, go for it. It's not really sensible. A bujjer kurehit is a bujjer kurehit isn't it? Regardless of circumstances.

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Guest Javanmard

Some people think that I am too harsh with AKJ because some AKJ people are "dedicated" to the Panth. Which Panth? the Sikh Panth? NO THEIR OWN. In 1984 they have shown their true face!

AKJ are not Sikhs because anyone who doubts bani is anyway cannot be a SIKH. Those who don't recognise or read Ragmala are not Sikhs. Their blasphemy equates to cutting the tongue of Maharaj! These people have no place in the Panth!!

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Guest Javanmard

to Akali Sirtor Singh Khalsa

YOu say Baba Gurbachan Singh Bhindranvale was against jhatka (not chatka) and sukha. You have any proof or that. I suggest you hang around more with those elders who were Sant Sundar Singh's chele. YOu might be surprised! The only reason Sant Sundar Singh asked Sant Gurbachan Singh to stop sukha is that you can't learn when you take sukha, otherwise he wasn't against it. It's a very well known fact that Sant Sundar Singh and Sant Gurbach Singh Bhindranvale were in favour of jhatka even though Sant Sundar Singh lived as a vegetarian. But here is the beauty of their open mindness (a quality that does not exist in AKJ): even though Sant Sundar Singh himself lived as a vegeterian he did not object to jhatka when there is need for it. Now that's his interpretation. The fact remains that jhatka is condoned not only by Maharaj himslef but also (suprise) by the SGPC and the Akal Takht. Mind you this doesn't mean I respect SGPC. In fact they're as hideously fascist as the AKJ are but in due time they'll taste hell as well! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

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Excellent Link http://www.damdamitaksal.org/raagmaala/index.htm

a much needed piece,shouldn't have to be done to prove to people about our Great Guru ji,but these people that continue to refute the belief in 1 whole ang of Guru Ji surely will suffer the brunt in their lives. :hearme:

Look at Ram Rai he changed 1 word and Guru Ji disowed him, these AKJ'S are ripping out a Whole ang, I feel sorry for them, Guru ji will still forgive them, like he did the Mahants :twisted:

Thank you :wink:

PS: Have fear of Rub in your heart :please:

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i was looking for this exact webpage yesterday at http://www.searchsikhism.com/issues/

to my surprise it had dissapeared :evil:

(the webmaster was going to get a stinging email!)

Glad to see this excellent page has resurfaced :D

Old Birs

Some Sikhs say old Birs don't include Raag Maala but in fact all the Birs have Raag Maala written in them whether you talk about Kartarpur Bir or Birs written by Baba Deep Singh Ji. One of the Birs written by Baba Deep Singh Ji is present at Abchal Nagar Hazoor Sahib and that Bir includes Raag Maala at the end. All the old Bir Sahib have Raag Maala such as Aadi Bir Sahib of Bhai Gurdas Ji and Boore Sandhu Bir samat 1662. These two Birs include signature of Guru Arjan Dev Ji at the end after Raag Maala. Another Bir Sahib of Bhai Banno Ji includes Raag Maala although an extra Shabad of Bhai Surdaas, one Shabad of Miran Bai and other stuff like Ratan Mala, Hakkikat Rah Mukaam etc. was added into it afterwards. It also has signature of Guru HarGobind Sahib Ji but right before the two extra Shabads start. Guru Ji signed the Bir Sahib before the extra Shabads. This shows that He signed the completion of the Bir Sahib.

Bir Sahib of Bohat tehseel Phalia also includes Raag Maala in the end and it has handprint of Guru Arjan Dev Ji as a signature. One Bir Sahib in Gujrat which is known as Bir of Pindi Lalla includes not only Raag Maala but also Gurbani of ninth Guru Ji. It was completed a month after Guru Ji's martyrdom. There are two Birs in Gujrat which are handwritten and they both include Raag Maala. Bir Wassu was written during the time of Maharaja Ranjit Singh which also includes Raag Maala. There are three old Birs in Jammu and the oldest one was written in 1722 and all three of them have Raag Maala. One Bir Sahib in Dehradoon was written in 1659. This Bir was completed by Guru Har Rai Ji and it was sent with Ram Rai to Delhi. This Bir does not include Gurbani of Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji but does have Raag Maala in it. Bir Sahib in Patiala was written in 1661 and it was approved by Guru Har Krishan Ji and it does have Raag Maala. Bir Sahib of Damdama Sahib also includes Raag Maala and all other old Birs. If you still don't trust me, then go look yourself. You wouldn't find me wrong here. Another Bir in village Kuthala was found which also has Raag Maala in it. The important thing about this bir is that this Bir Sahib was given Guruship by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Unfortunately, Teja Singh ripped off the last pages of this bir Sahib because there was Raag Maala in it. But it does have Raag Maala written in the index. SO this proves there was Raag Maala. Also, people who keep this Bir Sahib have said that Teja Singh himself ripped off the last pages of the Bir Sahib. All of the old Bir Sahibs have Raag Maala written and many of them have the signature of Guru Ji. How can this be wrong? It can't, of course because Raag Maala is of the Guru. Guru Ji wouldn't sign anything they didn't believe in. Anti-Raag Maala people wrote some Saroops of Guru Granth Sahib without Raag Maala and claim these to be ancient Birs but these Birs are not approved by anyone neither they have any history.

Reading Raag Maala is not bad at all. Whole Gurbani is written in Ragas and when we read names of Ragas while reading Gurbani then how can does it do harm to recite all the names at the end. Guru Ji sang Gurbani in Ragas. Did he not? And Bhai Mardana Ji played Rabaab.

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Why is it everyone who has commented on this is only intersted in akj, taksal or nihang. It seems more like a nihang and taksaal gang up on Bhai Randhir Singh and akj.

A debate on raagmala should be about what it actually says? Not who actually believes in it or not. This issue is very old in the Panth. Maha Kavi Bhai Sontokh Singh ji wrote against raagmala. Gurbilas 6th was in favour. This debate has been going on in Panth well before British, Bhai Randhir Singh, Baba Gurbachan Singh Bindra jatha, etc. They just presented opinions.

Singh Sabha movement, the Akal takht all had views. Mainly against. So why care who is pro and who is against. I am undecided. Lets just look at what is actually written in it.

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"It seems more like a nihang and taksaal gang up on Bhai Randhir Singh and akj. "

-narinder

Pls stop trying to play the victim. Only truths are being revealed, but the AKJ seem to be retaliating by revealing people's names and addresses on the internet instead of presenting their case :LOL:

There are even rumours of an "AKJ hitlist" of which I am currently at the top :wink:

Tragic behaviour from so-called "Sikhs" of the Panth (..assuming here that we accept their claim that they are under the umbrella of the Akal Takht). Yet, the AKJ still wish not to be labelled as being "extermist".

For a long time (over 150 years) , people have been insulting, spreading rubbish about the Nihangs, Udasis, Nirmalas, and Seva Panthis in order to paint them as anti-Sikh. The way to combat this is to reveal TRUTHS, FACTS and DIRECT LOGIC and with OBJECTIVE KNOWLEDGE.

The AKJ however, seem to resort to blindly dismissing anything that touches a nerve (the product of self-concoted ignorance), doctoring posts on AKJ forums, censoring posts on forums, attacking/threatening individuals, and bringing up 1984.

"This debate has been going on in Panth well before British, Bhai Randhir Singh, Baba Gurbachan Singh Bindra jatha, etc. They just presented opinions. "

-narinder

If you have actually READ Baba Gurbachan Singh ji's work, you would see that he has presented SCRIPTURAL and HISTORICAL evidence, and his "opinions" as you suggest are LOGICAL deductions based upon presented facts.

The least you can do is stop insulting the works of Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji and Kavi Santokh Singh ji by spreading untruths about their work.

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Kavi Santokh Singh wrote that Ragmala was NOT Gurbani. And I quote from Sree Gur Partaap Sooraj Granth Raas3, Ansoo 48:

"Ragmala sree Guru Krit neh, hai mundaavaNee lag gur bain. Is meh neh sansay kuchh kareeaih, jay sansay avilokoh nain. Madhavnal Aalam Kav keenas tis maih nritkaare keh tain. Raag raaganee naam ginai teh, ya tay Sree Arjan krit hai na||40|| "

I'll translate the most important first line,

"Ragmala is not the creation of Sree Guru..."

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Unfortunately, the doctored excuse doesn't work for Kavi Santokh Singhs work, since the Gur Partap Sooraj Granth was completed around 1843. A work that's that recent can be traced and the originals are available. Unfortunately the same can't be said about the rehitnamas. Sorry, but nice try.

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"A work that's that recent can be traced and the originals are available. "

-Singh 132

Thank you for saying this and accepting Kavi Santokh Singh's work as being genuine.

I now humbly quote from the same text:

"Guru Ji [Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh Ji] said thus from his mouth: "Bring us Sukha [cannabis] and black pepper. I have spent a long time without Amal [drugs]. I desire to take some."

from Siri Guru Partap Suraj Prakash, 1843, Kavi Santokh Singh, expugnated by Bhai Vir Singh Ji, Vol 14, Page 5920)

That is an extract of Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh ji speaking to an individual named "Goolaba"

Kavi Santokh Singh then continues to speak in the same paragraph:

"Happily Guru [Gobind Singh ji] quenched his thirst. Being pleased he gave a blessing [to Goolaba]. In the Panth Khalsa you [Goolaba] are in, dressed like you, and of great character like you, called Nihangs there will be many Akalis."

....from Siri Guru Partap Suraj Prakash, 1843, Kavi Santokh Singh, expugnated by Bhai Vir Singh Ji, Vol 14, Page 5920)

So, it appears, Kavi Santokh Singh Ji gives evidence that Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh ji drank Sukha (cannabis) and has also mentioned the NIHANGS and AKALIS, hence confirming them as being an authentic Sampardah (an institution blessed by the GURUS directly).

If I have in anyway misquoted, please let me know, indeed, I have given the page numbers for you to check yourself (as I am sure you will).

If the AKJ are willing to use Kavi Santokh as a genuine historian, then, can they now also accept these facts with regards to Akali Nihang Singhs, and Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh ji taking Sukha?

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Guest Javanmard

Bhai Santokh Singh was mislead on the issue of ragmala by Sobha Singh.

The first person who started this controversial topic was Giani Sobha Singh who lived in a religious school (Dera) of Thakar Dyal Singh. According to Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale, this man had some personal business problems and went to government officials who were Christians (English people who had control over India at the time). They said he would get everything he wants and all of his problems would be solved if he could divide the Sikh community by questioning Gurbani. Christians thought if Sikhs were to loose their faith in Gurbani, they will never become powerful and they could never be real Sikhs because Sikhs get everything from Gurbani. One who has complete faith in Gurbani is a Sikh. It was because of the power of Gurbani that Baba Deep Singh fought with his head on his palm. It was because of the power of Gurbani that Bhai Mani Singh was cut limb by limb but never showed grief. Gurbani is the soul of Sikhs. So Sobha Singh questioned Raag Maala and mislead Bhai Santokh Singh to write in Sooraj Parkash that Raag Maala is not Gurbani. Santokh Singh wrote on page 40 and 41:

"Raag Maala is not the composition of the Satguru, Mundavani is kept at the end of the Granth Sahib as the Closing Seal."

It did not end here. Sobha Singh wrote a saroop Guru Granth Sahib without Raag Maala and brought it to Akaal Takhat to seek approval of Sikhs. Many famous Sikhs were present there at that time such as Granthi Jwahar Singh, Bhai Bhagat Singh, Bhai Diwan Singh, Thakar Dyal Singh, as well as many Nirmale and Udasi Saints. The Singhs turned to Guru Ji for answers and they all decided to pray to the Guru Ji. Sikh Sangat chose five Sikhs as Panj Pyare and prayed in front of Guru that if Sobha Singh is right then he should stay healthy but if he is wrong then he should suffer within a week so that other Sikhs can learn a lesson from his mistakes. Within a week Sobha Singh was afflicted with leprosy and died a painfully death soon after. But before he died he learned his lesson. He asked some Sikhs to take him to Akaal Takhat to ask for forgiveness. He requested that his story should be published in weekly newsletter of Darbar Sahib so that no one could make the same mistake again. Guru Granth Sahib that he wrote was taken home by Bhai Aala Singh Ji Patiala.

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Guest Javanmard

For the rest Bhai Santokh Singh remains a pillar of SIkh orthodoxy. May God forgive him for having been mislead on the issue of Ragmala.

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Singh132

It appears you/AKJ are now faced with a choice

a) accept Kavi Santokh Singh ji's words and consider the Raagmala as not being Gurbani

B) reject them and consider Kavi Santokh Ji as being incorrect.

Selecting option a) means accepting Guruji took Sukha (cannabis) and acknowleding Akalis and Nihangs as being Guru Maharaj's institution (and logically accepting Sukha as being part of Sikh maryada).

Selecting option B) means your case against the Raagmala using Kavi ji's text has to be rejected.

Incidentally, one can present many more quotes from Kavi Santokh Ji's works that are far more detrimental to AKJ ideology, not just the Raagmala.

(we have plenty more quotes with regards to Guru Maharaj, Sukkha, Akalis, and Nihangs in addition to those ALREADY presented on Sarbloh and Shastar Vidiya Websites aside from Kavi ji's works).

I would like to know now where the AKJ stand, and which other past credible historian they would like to mention who is anti-Raagmala.

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Narsingha seems to be going into overdrive with his manipulation. Your options are silly, you say only accept 100% of Sontokh singh or none. Do you nihangs accept everywhere in Bani, there are quotes against narcotics? Yet you still claim to be sikhs and have Cannabis.

Taksal use Sontokhs singh writings for teaching katha, but do not accept his conclusions on raagmala. So you ask akj to choose, You choose, Guru Ji or narcotics, Taksaal choose Sontokh singh writings or raagmala? This is so silly, Narsingha typical intoxicated logic.

The reality is about Bani. Many groups of which one is AKJ accept that the raags used in the Guru Granth Sahib and raagmala, do not correspond. Some are in, others not. Some raags in raagmala, are not in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. These Gursikhs all state it is impossible for Guru Ji to make a mistake. I agree. Guru knew everything. So why are raags mixed up.

Which is why I state again, who cares who believed in it or not, it is about what is in it. You state this birs has it in, just as many don`t. Alot of birs have also been burned by pro-raagmalias. The fact is Guru ji can never make a mistake, so raagmala is questionable as it is not the correct.

Nihangs say AKJ questions Guru Ji. This is completely false. They, Sikh Missionary, and many other Panthic Scholars question the content of it. Any average sikhs would ask, is it not nihangs who question Guru ji, when they drink narcotics.

Mod's Note: No Personal Attacks please!! Prove your point!!!

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Guest Javanmard

what's wrong with cannabis? Do you actually realise that cannabis was used as a pain killer you.... get your indian history sorted out! :evil:

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