deep discussions on Soul/atma(surat), mind...!

[SAadmin]

I invite tsingh, amrit veer ji, pheena, drawof and other premi gurmukhs to participate in this thread.

From what I have understood from books of mahapurkh's and by talking to gurmukhs:

Soul is purest of pure. Our Soul is Atam/Akaal Roop..always in it's - Sat, Chit, Nirvakalap Anand Saroop.

However our antish karan (man, chit, budh) who is biggest problem of all making our shauksam sirar suffer by going through reincarnations, hellish expereinces.

Sikhi tell us to destroy our antish karan and rise above from it by first of all- doing sat sangat, sadh sangat, intiate yourself and then by using "Gurmantara" to reach your surat and then finally fully infusing that gurmantar into surat...this is called "Shabad Surat Marg".

I just want to discuss further the depth of this matter with gurmukhs.

Also I am bit confused on gurbani tuk which i was thinking about:

Man Tuo Jot Saroop Hai Apna Mool Painchain ||

I was just wondering if guru maharaj is giving updesh to mann(mind) which is full of flith or guru maharaj giving updesh to mann which is in its anand saroop.

Thanks bunch

[SAadmin]

Anyone? :?

[tableji]

i wud say that it is being said to the manmukh...the mann in anand saroop has to have understood its function...

[guv]

it's actually a really good question n3o... i'm waiting to see what the responses will be...

[drawrof]

kiddhan mahapurkho,

I'll answer this one tommorow (After my essay ).

[tSingh]

It is the aatm talking to the mind, o' mind. Try simple mindfullness techniques to realise that the mind is seperate from the aatm/self.

read the next line of Guru Amar Das ji's shabad and you will see that He is addressing his mind, criticising it for being full of pride and maya.

[SAadmin]

It is the aatm talking to the mind, o' mind. Try simple mindfullness techniques to realise that the mind is seperate from the aatm/self.

read the next line of Guru Amar Das ji's shabad and you will see that He is addressing his mind, criticising it for being full of pride and maya.

Thanks t singh purkha,

Soul is purest of pure. Our Soul is Atam/Akaal Roop..always in it's - Sat, Chit, Nirvakalap Anand Saroop.

However our antish karan (man, chit, budh) who is biggest problem of all making our shauksam sirar suffer by going through reincarnations, hellish expereinces.

Sikhi tell us to destroy our antish karan and rise above from it by first of all- doing sat sangat, sadh sangat, intiate yourself and then by using "Gurmantara" to reach your surat and then finally fully infusing that gurmantar into surat...this is called "Shabad Surat Marg".

I just want to discuss further the depth of this matter with gurmukhs

what's your vichar on this?

[tSingh]

I haven't got internet over the weekend, I'll write more on monday.

[SAadmin]

Thanks much tsingh ji

[SAadmin]

tsingh ji, kiathe gwaaaachak gaye tusi?? kirpa karo ji :)

[SAadmin]

few points to make this thread fruitful (please correct me if its wrong)

- Mahapursh/Bhramgyanis are above "Rajo, Tamo, Sato gun" and they reside in "turiya avastha" because all these three guns are guns after all regardless of levels...just like in the ocean- there are waves caused by air...in that state it is water and in the normal state its water..same with all the guns.

- Once you are in that stage then you get darshan of your real source - which is Atma (Sat Chit Anand Saroop)

- In that stage(beyond all three guns) there is no daulity.

- Your Surat gets merge with Nirankar...therefore you can leave this panj bhootak chola(5 elements) in and out whenever your surat wants since antish karan (mann, chit, budh) are destoryed.

so main focus of this discussion would be our antish karan and it's illusion that is not letting our surat merge with paratma.

Vaho Vaho Bani Nirankar Hai ||

in reality i think shabad is only way to merge with nirankaar...shabad is Nirankar itself.

[Winkie]

Many scholars, poets, learned men have done lots of research on Man:mind and soul. This continous research of what is man or rather mind and soul is going on and on but Dhan Sri Guru Granth Saheb Ji where we can find all the answers to such questions.

As Bhai Saheb Maskeen Ji used to discuss this frequently about mind and soul.

He used to say Tan Di Apni Sadhna hai,Te Man Di Apni Sadhna Hai.. Dharamak Sadhna Man Di Shadhna Hai..

To elaborate it Jo Karam Asi karde haan Je Uss vich Man shamil Nahin tan oh Man da hisa nahin banda that sanaskar is not formed in the mind. As Guru Nanak Dev Ji said in Japji Saheb 'Puni Paapi Akhan Nahey Kar Kar Karna Likh Le Jaho..

If we are doing Path, we are sitting at a Gurudwara, we are listening to Keertan but if we are not deeply involved in that with our pure heart and mind (Man) then that sanskar or action is not recorded as our good deeds.

Maskeen Saheb Ji in one of his katha had said that whenever any person does a bad deed his Man his totally involved in that he performs that action with full concentration because he is always in fear , fear from society, fear from law fear from being caught. So without fear we cannot be deeply involved in any thing. In same way we are not involved in total while doing path or keertan because that good action which we are portraying as doing good deed is not recorded in our heart and mind because that is being done without any fear. Simran or Bhakti done with fear is more deep rooted, fear of God, fear that one day we have to leave this earth will bring us much closer to God and one day when this good deed being done for fear becomes a sanskar for mind and soul then Ucchi awastha vich Ja ke becomes one with God attains Parmatma and that fear then vanishes and it turns into a sanaskar where we are always thinking of God our thoughts are pure and actions good. 'Simar Simar Satguru Apna Soya Man Jagaya' So to do jap with concentration Puri ekagarta Naal Bolya Waheguru Da Jaap Man Andar Sanskar ban janda hai

Guru Nanak Dev Ji says 'Kaya Kagad Man Parvana, Ser ke Lekh Na Pahdey Iyana.' Means that Kaya or body is like a paper kagad, In this paper whatever is written that is Man that makes Man the mind.. Guru Ji says that no one has that vidya to read the mind or man And these are the lekh of our heads that our mind has written.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji says even many highly intellectuals and educated persons too have failed to read the mind 'Padhya Murakh Akheye Jit Labh Lobh Ahankar.'

Then how to read and control this mind or man.

'Har Veley Amrit Da Bijya Bhagat Khaye Kharach Rahe Nikhotey'

'Nirban Keertan Gayo Karte Ka

Nimakh Simar Jit Chutey'

'Ek Chit Je Ek Chin Dhayo'

So when we do Naam Simran with pure conscience and with concentration then we can read our man and those bad sanskaras that already have accumulated in the mind slowely start to dissolve and pure man and thoughts take their place.

Jiyo Waheguru ji da sanskar man te banda jaye Tiyon tiyon hi Baki sarey sanskar jo man te ne Mit jandey han. Vikaran De sanskar Kaam Lobh Krodh Mit Jandey Ne

Santokh vich Bani padhna da bal us Akal Purakh tu Milda hai

If one part of the mind Jaag Jaye then from the shakti of simran baki part also jag jande han

'Shabad Guru Surat Dhun Chela'

If we come to that stage where while meditating on waheguru we are getting anand and happiness if we listen to keertan and are happy in that listening then samjho man jagda ja raheya hai and that is anand di dhuni on our mind. When one reaches in this stage where his milap with that Pramatma Oh sohney Akaal Purakh Naal aa Jaye then we get a new birth, Eh Janam Jap to hounda hai New birth because Man khatam ho jaanda hai This new Man emerges and begins to shine. Where that soul sees Nirankar ta roop in each one..'Eh Vis sansar tum Dekhdey Eh Har Ka roop Hai Har roop Nadri Aaya'.

'Satguru Ke Janamey Gavan Mitayaa'

The cycle of birth and death goes away when this new birth at the house of God takes place.

Hari Da roop Sabh te Nazar Aunda hai Te Anand di prapti houndi hai

[tSingh]

Winkie ji,

Maskeen ji was talking about dhyaan, N30 is talking about the deeper aspects of gyaan which is slightly different.

I will definately try to get something written down tomorrow, but this is not something I can hammer out in five minutes.

In principle what you are saying is correct N30, but there is more to add such as the differing states, and the different koshsas and the means to discriminating that state of abheda. As a consequence it answers certain questions about the nature of existence.

[SAadmin]

Thanks winkie ji and tsingh ji for your input.. tsingh ji take your time..we all know this is an very complex subject.

I still yet to see inputs by amrit veer ji, pheena veer ji, drawof sehan , sukhi and other respected members...keep your views coming guys in this topic.

[Sukhi]

i'm no Gurmukh, Neo. lol! not by a loooong shot! but i'll give it a try.

to start, i believe the shabad "man tu jot saroop hai, apna mool pachaan" is Guru Sahib explaining that our mind has an inherent seed of light hidden within. the only problem is that we don't understand or cannot find it because it's hidden. at least, that's what this line is saying. the rest of the shabad continues on this line, methinks.

as for whether Guru Sahib is referring to the filthy version of mind or the satchit anand saroop version, i think it's encouragement for the filthy mind to become the satchit anand saroop version. it's like Guru Sahib is basically saying that we've got the potential to be more than what we are, but we must first recognize/acknowledge this and move towards that goal.

the point in the end, methinks, is to go from having a mind filled with depravity and materialistic concerns to being filled with light... godhead, i think is the correct term.

moving on...

Soul is purest of pure. Our Soul is Atam/Akaal Roop..always in it's - Sat, Chit, Nirvakalap Anand Saroop.

However our antish karan (man, chit, budh) who is biggest problem of all making our shauksam sirar suffer by going through reincarnations, hellish expereinces.

Sikhi tell us to destroy our antish karan and rise above from it by first of all- doing sat sangat, sadh sangat, intiate yourself and then by using "Gurmantara" to reach your surat and then finally fully infusing that gurmantar into surat...this is called "Shabad Surat Marg".

in my opinion, i think the point isn't necessarily to kill your antish karan, but rather to redirect it. the best way i can explain it is that at the current moment, our mind's in control of what we do, and our mind by it's very nature is mercurial. it's all over the place, thinking about anything and everything and jumping from one thought to the next, not to mention the fact that it's mostly concerned with materialistic thoughts for the most part.

the point methinks is to take this control away from our mind and give it back to our soul.

part of the reason is because the mind may not always have pure intentions. if you think about it, the mind is generally concerned with material things. it's concerned with our survival as human animals.

but if control of our actions is given to a pure source, one that cannot be tainted (ie our soul) then it changes us. the soul can direct the mind to act in ways that are beneficial for not only us as animals, but also for the person spiritually and for humanity as a whole.

i think the best analogy i can use for it is that the mind sees things through a very narrow perspective. it can't see past all the petty little things that we're concerned with on a daily basis, whereas the soul, being "satchit" has true knowledge and can fulfil not only our daily needs, but can also ensure our safe return to our True Home.

think about it like this:

if you were going on a trip to england, would you rather have a pilot who has blurry vision flying your plane, or one who's got better than 20/20 vision?

now, according to everything i've said, including my interpretation of the gurbani tuk you gave to us, Neo, i'm starting to wonder if our soul isn't the same thing as our mind in satchit anand saroop version. (geezus, i almost make it sound like a computer...)

[challenge_everything]

hmmm - some very interesting veechars

chardi kala

[Guest]

in my opinion, i think the point isn't necessarily to kill your antish karan, but rather to redirect it. the best way i can explain it is that at the current moment, our mind's in control of what we do, and our mind by it's very nature is mercurial. it's all over the place, thinking about anything and everything and jumping from one thought to the next, not to mention the fact that it's mostly concerned with materialistic thoughts for the most part.

Sukhi biba,

Thanks for your vichar.

In my opnion, i think there is not much point to redirecting your antish karan...what's the point of taking antish karan from bad(tamo,rajo) to sato gun.. after all it still a gun...you still won't be able to recnognize atma fully.

Ultimately, I think stage should be fully destroy our gyan indrai(organs), antish karan(man, chit, budd) to reach your surat(atma).

the point methinks is to take this control away from our mind and give it back to our soul.

I think you are under impression that mind and soul(purest form of nirankar) are same thing...but if mind and soul are same thing indeed then how come mind make this mortal(asthohol/chamra sirar) suffers soo much.

[Hari]

How about this: There is only Atma.

[Pheena]

The 4 Antish Karans are

Mun - Thinking Mind, Thought producing.

Chit - Memory

Budhi - Intellect

Ahum - Self-Assertive Ego

You don't have to become a Diamond, you already are. You merely have to realize your true identity. It is a matter of plucking away the things which you are not. Remove the dust from this mind-mirror and you will see your true self being reflected.

You need not destroy anything, nor you can. Only drop that which is not you.

The Updesh is given to the mind which is filled with dirt. For it is the Instrument that needs cleansing.

Remember the Mind is only present in the Past or the Future, the mind cannot exist in the Present. The small gap of the present is not enough for the mind to reside and that is the small window of opportunity in which you can escape into the infinite and realize your true self. Hence it is said to live in the Present, live for now.

[Sukhi]

i think i need to rephrase everything i wrote. lol... and i'll do it later. or not at all.

[Guest]

i think i need to rephrase everything i wrote. lol... and i'll do it later. or not at all.

because of me being pindu or for your understanding?

[Sukhi]

because it's obvious what i said made no sense whatsoever.

[tSingh]

Gurfateh

Here's a taster;

As hari said, the aatma itself is Brahman. Equally taking a stricter advait approach, there is only brahman. It is your ignorance that allows you to think of there being any difference (or abheda or advait).

Traditionally the 6 fold path (read sri vichar sagar granth, pauri starting 'sam dam shrda tisri smaadhaan upraam...') along with sununam-mananam-nididhyasan, which means listening to vidya, contemplating vidya and putting it into practice along with the yama and niyama are the means of attaining to and sustaining this state of abheda.

Now the question arises why, why this predicament?

This gets fairly subtle but here are a few explanations;

- for some this present state of illusion/delusion is in essence unreal from the standpoint of ultimate truth (oneness), and therefore as a consequence it is pointless asking the question of it's creation because something that is not real (ajaati) cannot have a real creation! Advaitists would argue that this is neither solipsism, idealism nor platonism because we are talking about ultimate truth.

- Everything including maya is Brahman, nothing can be achieved without Brahman's will - this is the pushtimarg shudadvait approach (see the info I've posted under the simran bhakti section)

- Kasmiri Shaivam would state that essentially this is all for the leela of Shiv (in ultimate Brahman form) 'enjoying' himself of continually clouding himself in ignorance to wake up to his own incredibleness.

there are others also.

Where does the mind fit in? This quote from Pataanjali from the Yogsutram should clear this up a little;

'Yogashchittavrittinirodhah' which broken down means that the aim of yog as such is to cease (nirodhah) the events (vritti) of the mind (chitta) but this mind is not the satchitanand svaroop which is brahman in essence, but the mind we all know and love! In this sense the Guru above is stating a similar thing that the mind is presently a stumbling block to realising this fundamental truth of abhed. Suratsabad marg outlines the same aim of calming the mind, the bhaavsaagar, the occean of emotion or vrittis only then can deeper dyaan occur, and out of this varying stages of samadh the state of discrimination will occur.

In essence however what Hari says is true, which is that the irony is the mind and it's components are in fact relatively illusory.

This is a basic intro to the area as it gets more complex than this when we start looking at different states of consciousness, the different sheaths, issues of cause and effect, the different interpretations of abhed, etc

I have posted links before to Vedantsara (in the simran bhakti section I think) which is a good intro to sankaracharya style advaita vedanta.

I'd also recommend reading Gaudaapad's Karikas on Mandookya Upanishad. Gaudaapad was Adi Sankaracharya's dadaguru.

[tableji]

i'm no Gurmukh, Neo. lol! not by a loooong shot! but i'll give it a try.

to start, i believe the shabad "man tu jot saroop hai, apna mool pachaan" is Guru Sahib explaining that our mind has an inherent seed of light hidden within. the only problem is that we don't understand or cannot find it because it's hidden. at least, that's what this line is saying. the rest of the shabad continues on this line, methinks.

as for whether Guru Sahib is referring to the filthy version of mind or the satchit anand saroop version, i think it's encouragement for the filthy mind to become the satchit anand saroop version. it's like Guru Sahib is basically saying that we've got the potential to be more than what we are, but we must first recognize/acknowledge this and move towards that goal.

the point in the end, methinks, is to go from having a mind filled with depravity and materialistic concerns to being filled with light... godhead, i think is the correct term.

moving on...

in my opinion, i think the point isn't necessarily to kill your antish karan, but rather to redirect it. the best way i can explain it is that at the current moment, our mind's in control of what we do, and our mind by it's very nature is mercurial. it's all over the place, thinking about anything and everything and jumping from one thought to the next, not to mention the fact that it's mostly concerned with materialistic thoughts for the most part.

the point methinks is to take this control away from our mind and give it back to our soul.

part of the reason is because the mind may not always have pure intentions. if you think about it, the mind is generally concerned with material things. it's concerned with our survival as human animals.

but if control of our actions is given to a pure source, one that cannot be tainted (ie our soul) then it changes us. the soul can direct the mind to act in ways that are beneficial for not only us as animals, but also for the person spiritually and for humanity as a whole.

i think the best analogy i can use for it is that the mind sees things through a very narrow perspective. it can't see past all the petty little things that we're concerned with on a daily basis, whereas the soul, being "satchit" has true knowledge and can fulfil not only our daily needs, but can also ensure our safe return to our True Home.

think about it like this:

if you were going on a trip to england, would you rather have a pilot who has blurry vision flying your plane, or one who's got better than 20/20 vision?

now, according to everything i've said, including my interpretation of the gurbani tuk you gave to us, Neo, i'm starting to wonder if our soul isn't the same thing as our mind in satchit anand saroop version. (geezus, i almost make it sound like a computer...)

wow, erm...yeah, made sense to me in a sense lol.... mind is always described differently. to the soul in guru granth sahib ji in that the mind can be dangerous .....clean or filthy, the soul is always pure....

...one question ...

when guruji says that...

man mailai sabh kishh mailaa than dhhothai man hashhaa n hoe

When the mind is filthy, everything is filthy; by washing the body, the mind is not cleaned.

everything is filthy, what about the soul??what happens??

if the mind is in control, then the essence is blocked out??

if the essence is incharge, if you allow it to be, the mind is brought into order.....

i think that the soul takes gud and bad....gud being naam, bad being when the 5 have influenced our decisions....thats why i guess we must give out heads to achieve true sikhi...to realise that we must follow the way of the guru...just because we cannot understand why at the time...doesnt mean we shudnt follow it...something called faith....

faith is not obtained by thinking, thinking and understanding are 2 different concepts...faith/spritiuality is obtained by walkin ....it is in our actions that we truly understand ....

e.g. maths..u can read theory, if u dnt apply it, theres no guarantee ull understand it, or have learnt it....only thing u can do is trust that the source knows more than you...and try it...

[tSingh]

An interesting parallel discussion is taking place on tapoban and Kulbir Singh ji is arguing the very interesting take of Bhai Randhir Singh on this issue, of a oneness but still with an individual awareness of that oneness, which seems to be a contradiction in terms. Who is expriencing that oneness? How can it be oneness if there are two?

His interpretation of the very shabad quoted above is also quite different.

He also seems to hold oneness as self-destruction, and jeevatma as having something akin to a christian understanding of soul moving onto a qualitative heaven.