THE CONTROVERSY

[kabbadi_singh]

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The contention here does not petain to the schism between the vegetarian and flesh foods. The real point of controversy is whether it is justified to kill the helpless animals merely to obtain their flesh for eating? In this respect the verdict of the [glow=red:80b03cf274]Gurbani[/glow:80b03cf274] is absolutely clear. If someone tries to twist the meaning of Gurbani to suit his whims and preferences with the ulterior motive of creating justification for one's sinister acts of cruelty. one is free to do so. However, all such efforts to escape chastisement would be futile.

LIQUOR AND MEAT - THE PROVERBIAL VICES

From times immemorial, liqour and meat have been considered as the proverbial vices, which have been considered as the proverbial vices, which have been instrumental in bringing destruction to numerous families and downfall of nations and empires. In spite of that, clever people addicted to these viceshave even tried to justify their consumption and for this purpose, they have not refrained from distorting the meanings of [fade:80b03cf274]Gurbani[/fade:80b03cf274]. For this reason, it appears imperative to consider this matter in the light of Gurbani. in order to bring to light the truth.

:shock:

[challenge_everything]

ok?

[Malwe Da Sher]

liqour and meat have been considered as the proverbial vices, which have been considered as the proverbial vices, which have been instrumental in bringing destruction to numerous families and downfall of nations and empires.

can u give any historical examples, alcohol yes can lead to problems in families. can u give an example from history regarding empires. and i cant even begin to think how eating meet could leed to the destruction of an empire?

[mloco]

we arent supposed to a void meat because it 'destroys' families.

In Gurbani it says that we shouldnt eat meat because:

There are 5 elements (not chemical elements) that build everything. Meat is compsed of all 5, everything you eat puts weight on your soul, vegetables are a pretty simple life form, and doesnt put much weight, what it does can be worked off by a little simran. Meat on the other can need 5 Jap Ji Sahibs to work off (I have heard this from both GNNSJ and Rara Sahib Maha Pursh), not to mention the capitalisation of the suffering and pain the animal had to go through to get to your plate, and that they attract cheeja. Basically you shouldnt eat meat not only because its cruel but because it hinders your spiritual progress.

Many people use Guru Gobind Singh SAhib Ji as an excuse to eat meat, but who was he and who aer you? He could see the soul in the animals he killedand probably helped them along, and in that sense it was an honour to be killed by him, after all he was Nirankar saroop. And in another sense, look at the sacrifices he made, his whole family was sacrificed for Sikhi, what does it say about you if you cant sacrifice someting as simple as eating meat? If the time comes for your family to be sacrificed, or choose another religion what would you choose?

Another point is that the Gurus came to show us the way to God, told us what we needed to do to get there, they are already there and dont need to make the same sacrifices as us since they cannot be stained by paap. If we are to follow the Gurus' path we have to do as we were told to do, not do as the Gurus did as it is not in our power, this kind of thought just turns into manmukhi.

[Kaur_05]

ok, call me silly but if mioco is saying ht at u need 2 do 'x' amount of prayers to "work off" the bad deed of meat via SIMRAN...then evry 1 could jus say "cmon lets all eat meat then jus pray non stop for a week and its fine!"

im sorry yeah but they way i see it is u cant do deals with GOD! u cant say il eat this amount of meat and then do this amount of simran and its all hunky dory! Im sure it dnt work like that....

forgive me if im interpreting what ur saying in an incorrect manner...please feek free to correct me...

[mloco]

Im saying that as a true gurmukh Sikh you wouldnt eat meat because the Gurus said not to and your love for them means yo would do anything for them.

That said, my post also implies that people who do eat meat in other maryadas may be ok because it can be worked off.

I think paap can be worked off - 'Suniai dookh paap ka naas'. I also say that meat sets you back when you eat it, and given the fact about how hard it is to get anywhere spiritually its a serious handicap in spiritual advancement, especially if you're unfortunate enough to fall prey to marey shaktia.

I see you r point, but if thats how someone prays then it wont help coz you need to pray with prem and belief, if you pray thinking of meat you gonna eat then nothing will get wiped off your slate, but if you keep eating meat and praying properly, as your anbhav grows stronger you'll stop eating meat naturally. Just like some Sikhs I know who started joining the Sangat when they were mona, no one ever told them to stop cutting their, not even Mahapursh that he visited. Eventually he made his own decision to stop cutting it. My point is that the Gurus have recognised that changing habits is a process and have given us a way out of destructive habits, given work. Its not a deal - its redemption, and if you keep doing it I guess it gets harder and harder to work off.

If you have true love then eventually you will stop, if you dont have true love then you were never a Sikh....

[The Khalsa Fauj]

Mahaparsaade Zindabad!

[artistformalyknownasodhi]

can u give any historical examples, alcohol yes can lead to problems in families. can u give an example from history regarding empires. and i cant even begin to think how eating meet could leed to the destruction of an empire?

I no of a case were NOT eating meat braught down an empire, sort of, napolean b4 the battle of waterloo had a veg dish, but b4 all other wars he used to feast with the rest of his fauj with meat n wine. n look how well they did, sorry about being a bit sketchy on the details, once i find that book again i'l show ya'l

also in google search for "niave vegeterian" thats got some real valid pionts.

pow

[mloco]

thats just plain ol superstition

[challenge_everything]

u know what why start another meat arguement?

[Malwe Da Sher]

lol this is quite funny yar

[Rakash Singh]

What. Not this again. Don't reduce Sikhi to meat eating, its a hell of a lot more vast than that mate. You think just because some eats meat that they are sinners and will go to hell blah blah blah. I dnt think jesus or mother theresa were sinners (meat eaters).

And neither was Sat Guru Baba Nanak, Guru Har Gobind Maharaaj or Guru Gobind Singh Maharaaj who all part-took of Mahaprashaad.

[Guest]

ok done- topic locked..no meat discussions man...ehmiiiiiiii bassssssssss !!!!!!!!!!! grrrrrrrrrrr...grrrrrrrrrrrrr...!

NO MEAT DISCUSSIONS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[kabbadi_singh]

Where is the confusion about the meaning of the Gurbani line "countless cut-throats commit homicide"?

[Dynamic_Banda]

what your body consumes is as temporary as the body itself, what your soul consumes is whats important.

STOP wasting stupid ass time talking about crap ass issues and think about how we can get the meat eaters and vegis to sit together to do simran in anand and just be endrenched in pyaar for akaalpurakh.

[Rakash Singh]

cudnt have said it better myself dynamic... kabbadi singh quit hating and get on with it!

[kabbadi_singh]

It obviously means that anyone who commits cruelty by killing any living being for thre gratification of his own yearnings and desires, falls into the category of criminals accused of cut-throating. Bhai Sahib Bhai Gurdas Ji puts a direct question to those who indulge in cut-throating just to justify their own palate, as below:

What will happen to those who eat meat obtained by cutting the throats of animals?

(Bhai Gurdas Ji, var 37, pauri 21)

What fate will befall those who eat meat by cutting the throats of living animals?

(Bhai Gurdas Ji, var 25, pauri 17)

[artistformalyknownasodhi]

What fate will befall those who eat meat by cutting the throats of living animals?

hmmmmm do u rekon he is critizing some one?

[BAZ]

I have a question... if eating meat is forbidden in Sikhism then what was Guru Gobind Singh Ji doing with a hawk? Every picture you see of him shows him with a hawk in hand. Hawks are used for hunting and I am sure he didnt just keep it for decoration.

If eating meat is wrong then how do you explain GuruGobid Singh Ji's hunting hawk? If it is ok for the Guru to do this then should it not also be ok for his followers to do this?

[BAZ]

What will happen to those who eat meat obtained by cutting the throats of animals?

(Bhai Gurdas Ji, var 37, pauri 21)

Just a question.. does this refer to all meat eaters or specifically to muslims who cut the throat of the animal in order to make it halaal?

[Bruce Lung]

Who says it refers to either? The question might have been posed as food for thought/contemplation.

[challenge_everything]

look at the original guyrmukhi

[kabbadi_singh]

Guru Nanak Dev Ji has also explained the factual meanin of the contenious words of Kuttha and Halal etc., to a sheikh who relished animal food very much, as below:

"If truth be the knife and Truth its steel, then its make is of infinite glory.

And if it is sharpened on the wheatstone of the divine word .

And kept safe in the sheath of the Divine Virture.

Then if the Sheikh is 'killed' with this knife, all his blood of Greed will be spilt.

And in this way he will become Halal (Pure) and will meet the Lord God.

And thus, will witness the bliss of God's Vision at his gate."

(Var Raamkalee mehlaa 1, panna 956)

The above hymn gives a clear rebuff and brings to light the reality to those responsible for creating this dispute of Jhatka and Halal.

Thus, it is apparent that instead of creating a fraud of Jhatka and halal just for the sake of satisfying his palate, one must be prepared to sacrifice one's self i.e. ego for the sake of the Truth, get rid of sensuality and greed, and in this way would certainly become Halal (sacred) himself.

[challenge_everything]

u know wot i could go on for hours and hours on this debate - but what would i gain .

u know wot kabbadi singh, ure saying that shabad denounces the idea of chatka?

how?

acutally forget it - why keep this topic going just goes round in circles!

lock it

[kabbadi_singh]

MEAT AND OTHER FOODS

Meat-eaters further argue that even those who are strict vegetarians, commit homicide while eating grains etc., because all these foods also contain live organisms. This arguement also is rendered absolutely baseless and off the mark when analysed in the framework of Gurbani's guidelines.

Sikhism is a way of life which enjoins neither total attachment nor total detachment. It belives in a life of equipose i.e. internal detachment in an environment of attachment. Food has been provided by the Creator/Sustainer and it must be eaten to sustain life and not merely to satisfy one's palate. One has to take food to enable one's body to do Nam-Simran and bring one's life to fruition. Verdict of Gurbani favours such use of food:

From the primal Lord wells up the corn etc.,

With the energy generated by foodgrains in the body, can the recitation of the Nam be possible.

(Gond Kabeer Ji, panna 873)

One who eats food-stuffs (i.e. grains etc) cannot be considered a killer at all, just as a married family man remains a religious person in spite of bonafide sexual indulgence wth his wife in exercise of the creative energy bestowed upon him by the creator for continuity of human generation. That is why married way of life has been classed as topmost among other ways of life. On the other hand, if an unscrupulous man takes recourse to adultery, and yet claims parity with a married man, his claim is farcical and sheer non-sense. The difference between a meat-eater and grain- eater is the same as between a religiously married man and a profligate person.