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kabbadi_singh

THE CONTROVERSY

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all living creatures die, and if that death leads to being bioled cooked with torka and vartad to the sangata then whose complaining

It obviously aint the Bakra. !!

kabaddi singha if this is an attempt to get your posting up by writing one post in many parts stop it. you are boring everyone.

Secodnyl if you are posting in parts so that each part can be fully understood and respected then stop it as we have seen you arguments and provided many examples of bani which contradicts your views or provides an alternative view upon your arguments.

Thridly, your arguments of the meat eaters you should provide the replies when the arguments were actually made by the meat eaters.

Fourthly, yaara your concerns should be for the naam in everyones body not for the protein.

Fifthly, If you are truely concerned with stopping people from eating meat. I will gladly stop all consumption of any meat product that includes the e numbers and gelatine products etc, if you will stick a chicken leg up your aRse, .indicating that eating meat is like eating sh!t .. Will you do it for the panth.??

I think I would be able to say that alot of the other meat eaters would gladly give up meat and never touch it again if you were to do as asked.

You want meat eaters to stop eating meat because you think its wrong. well now the ball is in your court you can make them stop. If you arnt willing to do that and just providing your arguments for or against a case then yaara there are 3 pages of intresting wonderful arguments with quotes and bani attached, allowing everyone to draw their own conclusions. leave it at that. !

No offense to anyone.

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Dynamic Banda and all sangat please give references from gurbani and other sources saying eating meat, bhang, and alcohol is alright to take.

Let us compare.

I am not stopping everyone from eating meat i cannot do that. People will go on eating meat. I just want to say it is against Gurbani. If people want to eat meat let them, it is their freedom of choice brother.

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kabeer bhaaNg maachhulee suraa paan jo jo paraanee khaaNhi.

tirath barat naym kee-ay tay sabhai rasaatal jaaNhi. ||233||

Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine

- no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. ||233||

(Salok Kabeer Jee, page 1377)

kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.

Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.

hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un. ||188||

Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread? ||188||

(Salok Kabeer Jee, page 1374)

It is, thus, clear that the consumption of hemp, fish and liqour etc., negates even the good deeds done by a person and degrades him mentally into a state of wretchedness. At the same time it has been made clear that eating simple ordinary food for subsistence and maintenance of the body, enhances one's energy or inclination for Nam-Simran as well as keeps the body healthy. When such ideal foods are available in plenty, why would one commit cruelty by killing other living beings for food?

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Hence, in light of Gurbani, there remains absolutely no doubt, and there can be no two opions about the prohibtion of foods obtained by killing other animals. Gurbani has also clearly decreed that even eating simple and ordinary food obtained through falsehood, deceit, subterfuge, deception and through wrongful possession is equivalent to eating a corpse. Guru or Pir will only help if one refrains from such foods obtained through wrongful means which are as bad as carcass.

hak paraa-i-aa naankaa us soo-ar us gaa-ay.

gur peer haamaa taa bharay jaa murdaar na khaa-ay.

(Nanak) another's right is swine for him (i.e. the Muslim) and cow for him (i.e. the Hindu). The spiritual guide/prophet shall stand surety only if one does not eat carrion.

The acts of falsehood and wrongful possesions, have been regarded equivalent to eating of carrion. Thus doubtlessly the food obtained from dead bodies is definitely condemned and prohibited. Whether the animal slaughtered is a pig or cow; whether the beast is killedwhile reciting Kalma or Sat Sri Akal; with a knife or Kirpan; in a slow process (Halal) or with a single stroke (Jhatka) it becomes a corpse (i.e. Murdar) after it is devoid of life. When taking possession of things belonging to others by force or unjust means, is considered equivalent to eating of a dead body, if falsehood has been equated with eating of a carrion, then how can meat actually obtained from the dead bodies, be considered permissable to be eaten? How can the eater of such a food expect to get the bleesings of the Guru or Pir especially when one is openly and brazenly not only himself acting against unequivocal fiat of the Guru but also is propagating his erroneous way of thinking amongst others on the pretext of Gurmat? Such a person is guilty of bringing bad name to the faith he is following.

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All,

It so happened that I happened to talk about this just a few days ago. I have not read any of the responses and I am sure the points I make is not new, I hope just that it is not too redundant :-).

The other day a Namdhari cousin called me from a beach resort, so jokingly I told him to go out to a good restaurant and order some sea food. This fellow is a strict vegetarian so he laughed, but then I got serious……

I suggested to him that he wasn’t involved in killing an animal nor did he order anyone to do so, (I wouldn’t advice anyone to order any live animals to be killed and made into food). Then I reminded him about how he had to struggle just to find vegetarian food when he is away from home. He quickly denied ever being overly troubled. But then I pointed out the fact of always having to go someplace else and so on and how much better it would be if he would eat whatever that was available. He then acknowledged the difference and that those moments *did* involve unnecessary choosing.

I then went on to make the distinction between what really one should consider and give importance to and what is merely following someone else’s distorted sense of morality, in this case the Namdhari Satguru. Pointing out acts such as lying, stealing, killing, drinking alcohol and such, and extramarital sex, and how these are ‘undeniably’ wrong, I compared this with ‘being vegetarian’ and other such superficial religious restrictions. Do these have anything to do with morality? I asked.

A dead animal is merely protein, potential food as much as a bag of beans. We only project our proliferated ideas onto such experiences and so willingly follow them, after all because they are accompanied with a sense of ‘achievement’ or even ‘self righteousness’. But no, the vegan will argue that if he does not eat, then fewer animals will die. But this is merely thinking very ‘self-centeredly’, as if his actions are indeed going to have that much of an effect. He may further argue that from his own actions, others may follow and this trend might grow. In other words he thinks that he can change another’s potential to greed and aversion from setting an example. This reflects the level upon which he considers this matter of right and wrong, for indeed if he thinks that others are going to ‘learn’ from his outer behavior, then he too must be following a superficial path of conduct.

Even in “talking†and discussing the Truth, little ever changes another person’s mind and yet this is the best thing that can ever be done for another, i.e. the gift of Truth. So when instead we bring in *rules* which have no basis in terms of ‘understanding the way things are’, we are in fact doing great disservice to the other.

I then told my cousin that I had the problem of being very attached to taste. However this problem has its basis on a ‘reality’ and is not mind-made. I may or may not lessen my attachment as a result of this understanding, but at least I know rightly and acknowledge a weakness where there *is*. However when one is a vegan thinking that this makes him spiritually more ‘pure’, this has nothing to do with reality, but will in fact encourage mental-masturbation of one form or the other. He may and very likely, grows *attached* to this idea about being a vegan and in fact may be as attached to his vegetarian dishes as much as I do to my meat. And being deluded and having the idea of doing the right thing is usually associated with very pleasant feelings, so this fellow could indeed be in a trap!!

And we are all aware of the violence that is associated with the self-righteous mind. ;-)

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Like ghosts, man kills the beasts and eats carrion - the forbidden eat.

( Tilang, Fifth Mehl, First House panna 723)

Even the works of Bhai Gurdas ji which are considered the key to the Gurbani, also clearly forbids meat eating:

_ _

If Putna received deliverance (there was mystical reason for it but her profession) poisoning others was not good. Similarly, if the butcher (Sadhna) received redemption (it was due to mystical reason, however, his profession was not good). As such one should not have any misconception with regard to killing of living beings.

_ _ _ _

[According to Bhagwat Puran, Putna tried to kill the newly born Lord Krishna by smearing poison on her suckling nipples, but the baby Krishna gave a bite on her breast whereby the poison penetrated into her blood and proved fatal for her. It is believed she got salvation thereby. Similarly Sadhan was a butcher by profession. He became a true devotee of IK Oankar by virtue of which he got salvation. His verses are also included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.]

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OH COME ON

we have had the SAME arguments 4 times over

if all these n00bs dont have the time to read the thread we shouldnt answer to their lazy posts

n00b - read the freakin thread. its not 4 pages long for the fun of it.

[rant]

All,

It so happened that I happened to talk about this just a few days ago. I have not read any of the responses and I am sure the points I make is not new, I hope just that it is not too redundant :-).

READ THE POSTS

So when instead we bring in *rules* which have no basis in terms of ‘understanding the way things are’, we are in fact doing great disservice to the other.

most arguments here were based on Gurbani, no one tried to create their own rules. READ THE POSTS.

However when one is a vegan thinking that this makes him spiritually more ‘pure’, this has nothing to do with reality, but will in fact encourage mental-masturbation of one form or the other.

thats all part of Bhagti - fighting your haumai, 5 thieves etc. By your logic we should all be doing the wrong thing in order to avoid haumai - the challenge of Sikhi is to do the right thing and remain humble.

as far as 'taste' and 'attachment' to veggie/meat goes...that has nothing to do with it. We dont stop eating meat in order to deprive ourselves of the taste or to break our attachment. We stop because it is tamoguni food. Before you ask what this means, let me say READ THE POSTS.

[/rant]

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