shaheediyan Posted September 5, 2008 Report Share Posted September 5, 2008 Just out of interest, who is the regulatory body who decides which Sant gets which numerical title? I am not jesting, seriously interested - do Sant Samaj play some role in this today? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maha Kharag Singh Posted September 5, 2008 Report Share Posted September 5, 2008 i doubt it, there is no vatican system to give a sant that title, if anything i think most sants are given the title by their disciples. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted September 5, 2008 Report Share Posted September 5, 2008 Are shish qualified to know if there teacher is 108/111 etc? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragmaala Posted September 5, 2008 Report Share Posted September 5, 2008 Are shish qualified to know if there teacher is 108/111 etc? prolly not , it depends on shardha 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted September 5, 2008 Report Share Posted September 5, 2008 I don't think sharda in it self is what is needed. If every shish had sharda they would all claim their Gurdevs to be 111... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kam1825 Posted September 5, 2008 Report Share Posted September 5, 2008 big5abi i have read the Janamsakhis and am aware that Baba Laxmi Das took their body to the akaas with them along with their wife and horse. Was the horse and wife also regarded as being above Desh Kaal and Vastoo? Have you even read or been taught the arth of Desh Kaal or Vastoo or do you write whatever you believe? You have gone on about Kaal and that the sargun form and how it does not affect mahapursh then what is your understanding of Kaal? Forget all that and read the bit in the jap ji sahib veechar that Neo has typed up by Giani Thakur Singh Ji. If not here is the bit on Kaal "Ik is free from "Kaal(time/birth /death)". He is free from time. He is free from birth/death. Guru Ji said, bhram, vishnu, shiv (aom) is bound within kaal? they are going to go one day even maya is within kaal(time). Why called bhrama, vishnu, shiv - bhrama(God in Nirgun form)? It's only ik that is outside time(kaal) and free from time. Like for example- sun never stop giving its ray it's earth that rotated around the sun causing sun set and sun rise." If you still do not understand listen to Sant Giani Gurbachan sIngh Ji Bhindrawalae. What about Akaal Moorat in the Jap Ji Sahib again explained about Kaal and why Sants are not considered Akaal "Sidhas were satisfied with Guru ji explanation but asked mantar could have ended until Nirvair. Why there was need for "akaal" ?? Guru ji said, listen saints (sant/mahatamas) can have nirbhau/nirvair attributes because of high enlighten visions towards creation. Shastar Thikhan Kat Daraio Mannai Kino Rous || Meaning: If anyone chops saints body or kill them, they don't blame anyone. They say- This person came in will of god. They consider enemy as their owns. They consider creation as vahiguroo's creation. They don't have vair(rebellion nature) against anyone. However guru ji said, even saints, guru's have to go from this world. Death takes them. But there is a difference between holy person going and normal person going just how cat(death) treats her kitten ie- pick them up and nourish them nicely but with the same teeeth how she tears apart her haunt. Guru's/saints are nirvair but they are not akaal (timeless) because they have to go one day, even their physical being ( made of 5 main elements) has to face death. That's why i have written Akaal because free from death(kaal) can only be akaal purkh." These are the arths given to the faith from Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Is your understanding greater thein theirs? I am quite close to the Baba Sarbjot Singh Ji of the bedis so am aware of the bedi lineage. Baba Sri Chand Ji became Gupt, Guru Gobind Singh Ji, Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji and Guru Arjan Dev Ji never left a body for their disciples. Vishwamitter took his body with him to heaven, the Singhs with Guru Gobind Singh Ji at Damdama Sahib all became Mukat in their sargun forms and took their forms to Sachkhand. I do not think you are understanding what i have said. I totally agree with you that The Gurus were the Sargun manifestation of God. The Sadhus are the same as Nit Avtars. I am not questioning this. I am telling you the arths of 108 and 111 as explained by Taksal and not just anyone who has spent an hour with a taksali and starts to call themselves a taksali. I am talking about SriMaan Sant Giani Gurbachan Singh Ji explaining what these numbers mean. The reason why i have written them is because today as i have asked a number of Sadhus about what they mean and found that they have no idea but are happy to write them in front of their names to inflate their praise! These are the arths according to the Giani Samparda. Anyone that says any other arths about 108 or 111 either have great knowledge, or are making up anything. The number of answers that i have got which are complete rubbish are unbelievable. Unfortunately there are many APOORAN sants these days and trying to find a pooran sant with knowledge is difficult. Many people may have stated 111 to Sant Ishar SIngh Ji when they were in a bodily form however they never stated it themselves, as the proof in their letters. Anyone who did say it whilst they were alive did so out of ignorance and lack of knowledge of what the numbers actually are reffering to. Now answer my question as i have stateted if 108 indicates the number of births and so does 111. How come i have never seen and 109 or 110 before any sants or do they just miss these births? If Sant Ishar Singh Ji are to come back in a sargun form then while they be known as Sri 109 Sant ........... Singh Ji? Where is your source of information for the number 108 referring to previous lives? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big5abi Posted September 5, 2008 Report Share Posted September 5, 2008 all ur material meanings are true about the upanishads and other granths but im talking about the spiritual meaning. 108 is the number of lives which have accumulated for one to become a sant. i know that 108 is true. the meaning behind this number is past births of penance. nowadays the "sants" who use this infront of their name don't know the meaning themselves. very few know about the spiritual meaning. i was told this meaning by sant jagjit singh ji lopon wale. they are the son of late sant zora singh ji and the nephew of sri maan sant darbara singh ji of lopon, who were known for their charity, constructing many roads colleges gurudwara such as takhtupara and kiratpur sahib and katha of sri guru granth sahib ji. Sant darbara singh ji also used to talk about the number 108 referring it to past lives of tapasaya. this lineage is from bhai daya singh and has come to the lopon village after baba khudah singh ji of lahore. baba khuda singh jis disciple was baba bhagat singh ji who had come to lopon, their successor was sant mitt singh ji and their successor was sant darbara singh ji then sant jora singh ji and now sant jagjit singh ji. It was through the grace of guru hargobind sahib ji when they had come to lopon during their travels and had granted many boons to the vllage, of which one was that their will be a spiritual succession of saints in the village. also Sri Guru hargbind sahib ji had said that whoever will be on this lineage will not have less than 108 lives of tapasaya.(thus 108 births is the spiritual standard for a sant) nor will descend lower then the 4th state of consciousness. about the kaal part i already explained that and i agree the body belongs to kaal but the soul does not hence the soul is akaal. and sants are free from death because sants have nothing to do with the body its jus a elemental jacket they take off. of course it faces death, the body, not the soul. and no death doesnt take sants, god does. sants are not born nor do they die. its just the body that dies. when im talking about a sant im not talking about what colour their hair is or how tall they are im talking about the soul. material things have nothing to do with spirituality and spirituality has nothing to do with materiality. its one or the other. if u wanna say sants bodies die, fine i agree. but what about the things that actually matter.. like their soul. kaal can't do anytihng with that. the soul doesnt age nor die. we can go on forever talking about this if u want cuz i dont think u know what im saying... and i don't really agree with what ur saying 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 5, 2008 Report Share Posted September 5, 2008 veer big5abi, when you are talking about baba khuda singh ji are you talking about baba khuda singh ji from lahore also known as jaswant singh of bhai dya singh samparda?. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big5abi Posted September 5, 2008 Report Share Posted September 5, 2008 yes, jaswant singh(khuda singh) from bhai daya singh sampradai 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big5abi Posted September 6, 2008 Report Share Posted September 6, 2008 do u know of him 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 6, 2008 Report Share Posted September 6, 2008 who doesn't know bhram moorat mastani atma baba khuda singh ji maharaj? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harkamal Posted September 6, 2008 Report Share Posted September 6, 2008 Kam veerji, are you close with Baba Inderjeet Singh ji? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kam1825 Posted September 6, 2008 Report Share Posted September 6, 2008 Baba Inderjeet SIngh Ji are the Ustad or Gurdev of Sant Giani Hari Singh Ji Randhawae Walae, i know them through Sant HAri SIngh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kam1825 Posted September 6, 2008 Report Share Posted September 6, 2008 Big5abi can i ask you one thing. You say that a saint is above kaal as due to their soul. My soul and yours is also a part of the divine deity and is above kaal. so does that mean each being on earth is above kaal? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big5abi Posted September 6, 2008 Report Share Posted September 6, 2008 no we haven't realized God yet so therefore we are not above kaal. God is latent within us, we only have the potential to realize God and be like the sants. if through meditation our soul ascends from the body through all the spiritual realms and merges with god then yes we are outside of desh kaal and vastu. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matheen Posted September 6, 2008 Report Share Posted September 6, 2008 big5abi- I have been lucky enough to have been in the sangat of true Mahapursh a few times and have never, ever heard your explanation of '108'. Are you sure you understood correctly? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big5abi Posted September 6, 2008 Report Share Posted September 6, 2008 ya i've been in the presence of true maha pursh also and i've heard of 108 being reffered to as past lives. any mahapursh who uses that number and doesnt know the spiritual significance shouldnt be using it. sant refers to soeone from sachkhand with 108 past births. who ever doesnt know that, is either witholding information or is not a sant. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matheen Posted September 6, 2008 Report Share Posted September 6, 2008 What about a Sant (e.g some Kharak Mahapursh) - who has no previous births? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithar Posted September 6, 2008 Report Share Posted September 6, 2008 What about a Sant (e.g some Kharak Mahapursh) - who has no previous births? How could they not have a previous birth? Even Souls like Guru Gobind Singh Jee had previous birth which he explains in Bachitra Naatak. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kam1825 Posted September 7, 2008 Report Share Posted September 7, 2008 big5abi The soul in any being is a part of God and is undying. It is the only presence that passes from one life to another. Even in bani it mentions, "Man Tu Jot Saroop Hai Apna Mool Pahichan". Vedant philosophy explains it very clear and simple that Atma is parmatma. If the souls is bound by kaal of a normal being that what is present in the court of Dharamraj? The souls of a being is exempt from death again i would suggest listening to the discourses of Sant Waryam SIngh Ji or Sant Jagjit SIngh Ji Harkhowalae. big5abi i doubt your interpretation is correct of 108 as i said sow me someone witha 109 or 110. As Sants dont just stop coming to the earht after their 108th birth of bhagtee. What is the reason for 111 then? This is not one of the arths given by the great sampardai mahapursh and have not heard it from any mahapursh. i have recently spent time with Sant Jagjit SIngh Ji Harkhwalae, Sant Major Singh Ji Amritsar Walae, Sant Giani HAri Singh Ji Randhawae Walae, Swami Parmanand Giri and Giani Hardeep SIngh Ji Hazoor Sahib Walae. None of these Mahapursh said anything about the previous lives with regards to 108 but gave the following arth? Are they all wrong as well? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big5abi Posted September 7, 2008 Report Share Posted September 7, 2008 the line you quoted "Man Tu Jot Saroop Hai Apna Mool Pahichan" backs up just what i said before. Gods roop is latent potential, it must be realized to be actualized by ur consciousness. to answer ur second point, the astral body with the soul intact is present in the court of dharamraj. i've never claimed 111 as births i said 108. 111 is what ive heard people say about sants such as sant isher singh ji and others. 108 is the number for a sant and previous births. the last question u asked poses a Catch 22. it seems that ur trying to box me into refuting your taksali sources, and perhaps you want me to nind this list of names you've written-i won't stoop so low-but i will say i dont doubt their hasti. perhaps they are well read and great scholars and perhaps attained samadhi and can leave their bodies at will, this would make them great sadhus but if they haven't reached the causal plane(gyan khand) and merged the causal body(which contains the seeds of all past lives) into that region. they would not be conscious of all their past incarnations. a true sant surpasses two greater regions than this and arrives at sachkhand to final liberation, but one is accepted here by akaal purkh after 108 past lives of tapasaya. this is the spiritual meaning of the term 108. i repeat what i said before either they are witholding the information or they dont know. through all of this uve failed to note that I have whole heartedly agreed with all of your interpretations, only i privelige a more spiritual meaning of the 108 designation. it seems that something is driving you to disprove my assertion which is not found in your maze of books. In posting i was hoping that others could see the sublimity and grandeur of how great a soul a sant is. but instead u seem narrowmindedly bent with your insistences which verge on showing off your pundit like memorization of various steeks. is this spirtual knowledge? or is it the mere parrotting of texts by narrowminded interpretation with no objectivity? i suggest u re-read the original post by valli singh if that doesnt give u enough prem to overcome your scholarly ego and punditry then i dont know what will. this is my last post on this topic 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kam1825 Posted September 7, 2008 Report Share Posted September 7, 2008 lol what a load of rubbish, so you doubt the hasti of Mahapurkh such as Sant Giani Gurbachan SIgnh Ji Bhindrawalae and Sant Giani Mohan Singh Ji Bhindrawalae. The referances to 108 and 111 are not from a maze of books as you suggest but from their actual katha and questions i have asked and written with other Sants and Sadhus. All i am saying is that there are many Sants i have spoken to that are Brahmleen and none of them have ever stated that 108 is about 108 previous lives of Bhagtee. I have heard alot of rubbish arths for this before as well with no backing such as 108 stands for the number of skulls Shiva had in his garland, 108 stands for the number of times a sant has Darshan of God in a life time, etc. This again about the previous births i believe is the same. I do not know the Sadhu you have heard this from but believe again it was said to you to just satisfy your qestion without anything to back it. As i said many Sadhus who have openly talked about everything in their lives about Gyan and Brahmgyan have never stated this as an arth for 108 so i doubt it! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted September 7, 2008 Report Share Posted September 7, 2008 Kam Ji, big5abi Ji said he 'doesn't doubt the Bhindran Sampradya Sants hasti. Personally this 108/111 topic is unimportant. There are obviously different interpretations of these numerical titles according to different Sants - just think of it as diversity - us mere mortals have no need to fret over Sant titles - things like this just end up bordering on personality worship and causing further factions in the panth - it is no secret that various Sants have different opinions/ideas on different subjects. I think you have both fully shared your thoughts and will not change your opinions - so just agree to disagree before it gets to personal. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 7, 2008 Report Share Posted September 7, 2008 Kam Ji, big5abi Ji said he 'doesn't doubt the Bhindran Sampradya Sants hasti. Personally this 108/111 topic is unimportant. There are obviously different interpretations of these numerical titles according to different Sants - just think of it as diversity - us mere mortals have no need to fret over Sant titles - things like this just end up bordering on personality worship and causing further factions in the panth - it is no secret that various Sants have different opinions/ideas on different subjects. I think you have both fully shared your thoughts and will not change your opinions - so just agree to disagree before it gets to personal. I totally agree with shaheediyan on this. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Posted September 7, 2008 Report Share Posted September 7, 2008 Pandta di galla... Guru Sahib has already sorted us out but we go away from Guru Sahib's gifts and this is what happens, this is why we get confused. Three words for ya guys: Bhai, Singh, Kaur. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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