Guest Javanmard Posted November 26, 2003 Report Share Posted November 26, 2003 Again I am not saying you're wrong but what you seem to take as a contradiction is just another aspect of the paradoxical aspect of abek and bibek as explained in Dasam Guru Granth Sahib. Just read Bhai Gurdas' kabit 666 on wine and you might be shocked... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 26, 2003 Report Share Posted November 26, 2003 I read an sakhi of baba ishar singh ji rara sahib. One day baba ishar singh ji maharaj rara sahib was travelling in the car, there happen to hear an punjabi song. Upon hearing the tune, baba ji's tears came outta the eyes. Seevadars was like.. what happen maharaj ji??. He replied "Eh kanjar khanna khasama(god) [punjabi slang- husband] tuo visaaar dendiiya han.. saadi aa eh ardas hii haie satguru daie charna naal liv lagii rehaie". This shows even bhramgyani's cant even completely conquer 5 chors but can control and smashed them into peaces with naam simran 24/7. As steele mentioned: kaam krod nagar baho bhariyaa mil saadu khandal khanda hay - kirtan sohila Also another example.. this one is wicked... from the sant jarnail singh ji maharaj tape... Sakhi of narth ji- Once narth ji (son of bhrama) start sayin stuff like " i have control kaam" " i have control kaam" with ego to shiv ji maharaj. Narth ji had a blessing power you can call it .. he can come to this earth any time and pay visit to anyone and in anyform. Once day, shiv ji maharaj sent him in the earth to do certain task ..There was very beatiful (sundar) nari he saw... he starting having thoughts like get married and other dirty thoughts. When he approached (maya) beautiful sundar nari and offer her for marriage. She goes to him have you even seen your face?? and she left... .. then he went to edge of the river to saw his face on the water.. he saw himself an having a monkey face... And he goes back to shiv ji maharaj.... shiv ji laughed at him... shiv ji goes never claim that you controlled kaam because you never know your thoughts in the mind .. once mind is free...its goes wandering around... thats why our guroo order us sikhs to do naam simran 24/7 so that saad naam simran da liv ragii rahie!!!!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted November 28, 2003 Report Share Posted November 28, 2003 Dear Summeet Kaur, you asked me to provide the line from Bachitar Natak refering to Guru Gobind Singh's anger, here it is: Bacitra NATaka 8:31 jabai bAN nAgayo/tabai rosa jAgayo/karaM lai kAmaNaM/hanaM bAN tANaM//31// As sson as the tip pricked me, my anger flared up. Catching the bow in my hand I pulled an arrow and shot it. 1. The word for anger here is rosa from the Sanskrit RUS, rosati: to get angry, to be angry. As such rosa is a form of krodha. 2. Regarding this passage you said that: Please tell me the exact panthkee in Bachitar Natak. I can understand Gurdev Pita Maharaj feeling a sense of bir rass, strength, etc. But, how can we consider Guru Gobind Singh Ji Sahib Satguru when he's not free of 5 evils? Your reference to bir ras or in Sanskrit vIrya rAsa is inapropriate as bir ras is an aestheticised emotion (ras), bir ras is what you feel when looking at a painting or listening to a rag composed with that ras. You can't say that Guru Gobind Singh felt bir ras on a battle field. According to classical aethetic works such as Anandavardhana's Dhvanyaloka a ras can only be experienced in art not in real life. What you experience in real life as pure emotion is called bhava. Now if you look at the rags of Guru Granth Sahib (in its three forms) you will see that the rasas used for the rags derive from surprising sources: Raga Bilaval has sringar ras as its rasa. sringar rasa is the aestheticised form of kama (kaam) bhava. Raga Malkauns (used in Dasam Guru Granth Sahib and Sarabloh Guru Granth Sahib) has bir ras which itself is derived from krodh bhava.* Gurbani itself is sung in rags that are based on the bhavas of kam and krodh which leads us to conclude that the five "thiefs" don't dissapear. Through nam simran and Maharaj's grace they made noble, refined and controled. They stop being "thiefs" (the thiefs have fled) and become your allies. (see katha of abhek and bibek in Dasam Guru Granth Sahib). ahankar or haumai is considered one of the biggest "evils" yet Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj clearly says in Asa di Var: Shalok, First Mehl: ho vich aaeiaa ho vich gaeiaa || In ego they come, and in ego they go. ho vich ja(n)miaa ho vich muaa || In ego they are born, and in ego they die. ho vich dhithaa ho vich laeiaa || In ego they give, and in ego they take. ho vich khattiaa ho vich gaeiaa || In ego they earn, and in ego they lose. ho vich sachiaar koorriaar || In ego they become truthful or false. ho vich paap pu(n)n veechaar || In ego they reflect on virtue and sin. ho vich narak surag avathaar || In ego they go to heaven or hell. ho vich hasai ho vich rovai || In ego they laugh, and in ego they weep. ho vich bhareeai ho vich dhhovai || In ego they become dirty, and in ego they are washed clean. ho vich jaathee jinasee khovai || In ego they lose social status and class. ho vich moorakh ho vich siaanaa || In ego they are ignorant, and in ego they are wise. mokh mukath kee saar n jaanaa || They do not know the value of salvation and liberation. ho vich maaeiaa ho vich shhaaeiaa || In ego they love Maya, and in ego they are kept in darkness by it. houmai kar kar ja(n)th oupaaeiaa || Living in ego, mortal beings are created. houmai boojhai thaa dhar soojhai || When one understands ego, then the Lord's gate is known. giaan vihoonaa kathh kathh loojhai || Without spiritual wisdom, they babble and argue. naanak hukamee likheeai laekh || O Nanak, by the Lord's Command, destiny is recorded. jaehaa vaekhehi thaehaa vaekh ||1|| As the Lord sees us, so are we seen. ||1|| 3.Sikhi as despribed by our Gurus is an alchemical process through which the basic drives of our beings are being turned into doors to Divinity: the low metal becomes gold as it is described in many shabads! When they are controled the five drives stop being thieves! Also in Guru Gobind Singh's bani there is plenty of reference to how important sexuality and erotic arts are and I will here refer to bani other than Charitropakhyan so that even those who are sceptical about see how obvious this acceptance is. In Akal Ustati in verse 12, 112, 130 Guru Gobind Singh explicitly mentions that Akal Purakh is manifest in both the Vedas and the Koka Shastras (erotic arts) In Gian Prabodh the same thing is said again in verse 275 In Bachitra Natak (1:10) Guru Gobind Singh explicitly mentions that Akal Purakh is mahAM kAm kAmaM mahAM bhoga bhogaM: the great desire of all desires and enjoyer of all enjoyemnts!!! In JAp SAhib Guru Gobind Singh describes Akal Purakh as Jogi and Bhogi at the same time (verse 28). If the 5 drives were tigers our aim as Sikhs is not to kill but to tame them and ride them as shown in this picture of Padmasambhava, the founder of Tibetan Buddhism: hence the whole emphasis on being grahistis and jogis at the same time. The erotic arts are an absolute necessity for married life. They also help realising the complementarity of the feminine and the masculine. We simply cannot live without the five drives, if we try to destroy them by repressing ourselves or if we indulge in them an exagerated way the tiger will kill us, if we tame them we ride the tiger! Guru Gobind Singh gives us the choice between being repressed or loose sheep or heroes who control and direct our drives. I have made my choice: Taming the five drives is certainly more difficult than repressing or indulging in the five drives, it'll take my whole life but that is precisely why I am a Sikh, a learner: I think it's worth! I remember Akal Purakh and worship AKal Purakh by enjoying his/her creation. Refusing legitimate pleasure is an insult to our Creator who created this universe. God said to the Prophet MUhammad (pbuh): I was a Hidden Treasure, so I wanted to be known and therefore I created this universe! There is this story of Sant Udasi Baba Shri Ramakishna Paramahamsa who was once asked by a woman who had difficulties in doing simran to help her. She said she was unable to concentrate. He asked her: Who do you love most in this world? She said: My little daughter! He replied: See her as God, serve her and love and do simran whilst doing that. The woman soon experienced brahmgian. It's not the world that is he ennemy but our inability to perceive the Divine in it. We can discover the Divine even in the physical expression of love! It all depends about your intentions and your purity of heart! As Bjork says: It takes courage to enjoy big time sensuality! :wink: Anand hi Anand Akal hi Akal *there is a 18th century Nirmala work that deals with rasas and bhavas by Pandit Gulab Singh, the Bhavarasamrit. It used to be one of the compulsory reading in all the scholastic sampradayas' schools be it Nirmale, Udasis and Sevapanthis. I don't know if the NIhangs used to read it or not. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynamic_Banda Posted November 28, 2003 Report Share Posted November 28, 2003 i know a nihang who reads it.. and intresting points on the whole control of the 5 evils.. etc.. Just like Bhagat Dhana.. in the artee arta.. seems like he is demanding all these luxuries but in fact he just wants to have them in order to control his mind.. Kahai Kabir, Man Mania... Man Mania toh Har Jania.. and the oh so famous.. Man Jeeteh.. Jah Jeet.. The mind is but a tool of the five evils.. yet when conquered then the 5 evils are but a tool..to the gurmukh.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JOYce Posted December 1, 2003 Report Share Posted December 1, 2003 Admin Note: Not allowed brother. Please, use Gurbani and Gurus words in discussions. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynamic_Banda Posted December 1, 2003 Report Share Posted December 1, 2003 erm kinda confused is my post not allowed or the post of JOYce by the admin? coz there so many admin ppl, i aint got a clue.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ideal Singh Posted December 1, 2003 Report Share Posted December 1, 2003 erm kinda confused is my post not allowed or the post of JOYce by the admin? coz there so many admin ppl, i aint got a clue.. I too had the same first impression... but I think Joyce must have written something naughty so he gets the taste of <Admin Cut> for first time... welcome to group Joyce... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JOYce Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 R admin I have submit my words and dont i think there is something against the limits as defined for the forum . If as per U sometime is not allowed or wrong as per U or somebody else Please let me know specifically. I hope U help me to not to withstand such a situation in future. Hope to hear from U 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light ~of~ Mind Posted December 21, 2003 Report Share Posted December 21, 2003 i think N3o's quote is the Very last line of Kirtan Sohila... not sure though!! waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ke fathe Jap ji Sahib pori ||38|| Let self-control be the furnace, and patience the goldsmith. Let understanding be the anvil, and spiritual wisdom the tools. With the Fear of God as the bellows, fan the flames of tapa, the body's inner heat. In the crucible of love, melt the Nectar of the Name, and mint the True Coin of the Shabad, the Word of God. Such is the karma of those upon whom He has cast His Glance of Grace. O Nanak, the Merciful Waheguru Ji, by His Grace, uplifts and exalts them. ||38|| 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JOYce Posted January 2, 2004 Report Share Posted January 2, 2004 I too had the same first impression... but I think Joyce must have written something naughty so he gets the taste of <Admin Cut> for first time... welcome to group Joyce... Now I have to Dry Clean My image, I dont want to be blamed @ all :cry: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 10, 2004 Report Share Posted January 10, 2004 Also everyone check this out.. It explains sexuality and sikhism in detail.. treh charitar topic from dasam granth sahib. http://www.gurmat.info/srec/ Scroll down and you will see section of dasam granth sahib ji and under that section look for topic "Chritropakhyaan" and its sub sections- Chritars 21-23 - Chritar 102 - Extreme Devotion of Queen Kaikaee to her husband Raja Dasrath Chritar 111 - Chritar 185 - Emperor Akber Caught in an Act of Debauchery Chritar 245 - Chritar 325 - Chritar 402 - Enjoy readin :D 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shasterkovich Posted January 10, 2004 Report Share Posted January 10, 2004 Thanks Neo, but most of us already have these chapters (probably from when you linked to them here previously). Prithpal Singh's translation is full of silly apologetics about the "real meanings" behind the drugs and sex plotlines of these tales. Therefore there is a slight suspicion that there is a bit of prudery at play, which increases the curiousity for the vast amount that has been omitted from the online translated Treh Charittar. Need the whole version really, translated into English. If someone could scan it and then turn it into a PDF, that would be good. If that happened, maybe someone could turn up from somewhere having just done it, create a new username and let people know where.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tableji Posted March 22, 2004 Report Share Posted March 22, 2004 yeah i think within marriage its ok 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sikh_fauge Posted March 22, 2004 Report Share Posted March 22, 2004 Let the five evils be YOUR slave, and not the other way round, thats the key. Yes guru was angered from the arrow thrown by the hill chief; and guru ji says it rekindled his passion to throw multiple arrows at the enemy i.e the hill cheif. This implies that the gurus did/were angry amongst the other five vices, HOWEVER they had them under COMPLETE control. Infact its a sin for me to even make this assumption; im not a brahm gyani so i cant make this statement is concrete; but for the rest of us guru ji said the following; 'he who is subject to birth and death is not perfect.' Sex is kool; and enjoying sex with ur partner, as long as u control ur passion, and not the other way round; there IS something spiritual about sex/making love; but then theres something even more ecstatic about reading bani and being in spritiual bliss through naam simran; so who needs sex 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted March 22, 2004 Report Share Posted March 22, 2004 If we were just spirit we would not need sex but Akal Purakh gaves us a body and to insult Him/Her by refusing the legitimate and healthy pleasures that are accessible to us is really shameful! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 22, 2004 Report Share Posted March 22, 2004 I m recording this Discourses on "Osho Love Affair" tape volume called "Kaam Sie Mukht" in hindi. It will make us understand kaam better.. It should be obtainable on dc++ gursevahub.com tom. Please note: Sex is not Kaam 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sikh_fauge Posted March 22, 2004 Report Share Posted March 22, 2004 Its not shameful mate; if im fulfilled with naam simran and bani, then who is the world to condemn me to hell for not having sex!! :roll: Personal choice..once again. Jeesh, people need to stop trying to enforce their opinions on others! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted March 23, 2004 Report Share Posted March 23, 2004 Well, at your age I think it would even be a bad idea to have sex!!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sikh_fauge Posted March 23, 2004 Report Share Posted March 23, 2004 8) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cksinghani Posted March 23, 2004 Report Share Posted March 23, 2004 it is natural for everyone to have sex no matter what colour or race get over it people. dont get me wrong i am not saying sdex is alright before marriage but it is natural to mate with your life patner their is nothing wrong with showing your effection towards your life partner in this way 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pheena Posted March 23, 2004 Report Share Posted March 23, 2004 When your Love starts to grow between your partner, Sex will begin to disappear. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Posted March 24, 2004 Report Share Posted March 24, 2004 As long as I'm still able to have intercourse at a ripe old age I don't really care! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amrikingh Posted March 24, 2004 Report Share Posted March 24, 2004 looooool nutters man i swear 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sikh_fauge Posted March 24, 2004 Report Share Posted March 24, 2004 I agree pheena..being physical in other ways tends to be alot more meaningful and affectionate i.e hugging and caressing (without getting tooooooooo into it) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tableji Posted April 28, 2004 Report Share Posted April 28, 2004 Incidentally, Charitropakhyaan is also known as "Treh Charittar" amongst the Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa. "Treh" refering to women, and "Charitar" refering to attributes/schemes (hopefully lalleshvari can expand on this further..) I think that applies to men aswell, because these days men are guilty of the same things, gossiping n things 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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