amardeep

Was Guru Nanak God himself?

89 posts in this topic

i just got home from the local Gurdwara, and there there was a sikh from England who claimed that Guru Nanak was God himself.... i thought he was ridiculous and went home to research and found these verses.

Page 136, Line 10

ਹਰਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਆਰਾਧਿਆ ਦਰਗਹ ਸਚਿ ਖਰੇ ॥

हरि गुरु पूरा आराधिआ दरगह सचि खरे ॥

har gur pooraa aaraaDhi-aa dargeh sach kharay.

Those who meditate on the Perfect Guru, the Lord-Incarnate-they are judged true in the Court of the Lord.

Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Page 306, Line 14

ਨਾਨਕ ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਰ ਸਫਲ ਦਰਸਨ ਕੀ ਫਿਰਿ ਲੇਖਾ ਮੰਗੈ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥੨॥

नानक सेवा करहु हरि गुर सफल दरसन की फिरि लेखा मंगै न कोई ॥२॥

naanak sayvaa karahu har gur safal darsan kee fir laykhaa mangai na ko-ee. ||2||

O Nanak, serve the Guru, the Lord Incarnate; the Blessed Vision of His Darshan is profitable, and in the end, you shall not be called to account. ||2||

Guru Ram Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

and there are propbably also others..

it this true ? was Guru Nanak and the other Mahrajs God?.

if if they were, who were they praying to? If their prayers were just God showing how a prayer should be done, it means that their Prayers were empty rituals as God can not pray to God, since there is only One God.

The Guru's slept, ate, had children etc..does this mean that God is limited as a human being who needs sleep, rest, etc??

i cant make this work...seriously..how could Guru Nanak have been God?

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more here:

raamdaas guroo jag taaran ka-o gur jot arjun maahi Dharee. ||4||

Guru Raam Daas, to save the world, enshrined the Guru's Light into Guru Arjun. ||4||

ਜਗ ਅਉਰੁ ਨ ਯਾਹਿ ਮਹਾ ਤਮ ਮੈ ਅਵਤਾਰੁ ਉਜਾਗਰੁ ਆਨਿ ਕੀਅਉ ॥

जग अउरु न याहि महा तम मै अवतारु उजागरु आनि कीअउ ॥

jag a-or na yaahi mahaa tam mai avtaar ujaagar aan kee-a-o.

In the great darkness of this world, the Lord revealed Himself, incarnated as Guru Arjun.

ਤਿਨ ਕੇ ਦੁਖ ਕੋਟਿਕ ਦੂਰਿ ਗਏ ਮਥੁਰਾ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਨਾਮੁ ਪੀਅਉ ॥

तिन के दुख कोटिक दूरि गए मथुरा जिन्ह अम्रित नामु पीअउ ॥

tin kay dukh kotik door ga-ay mathuraa jinH amrit naam pee-a-o.

Millions of pains are taken away, from those who drink in the Ambrosial Nectar of the Naam, says Mat'huraa.

ਇਹ ਪਧਤਿ ਤੇ ਮਤ ਚੂਕਹਿ ਰੇ ਮਨ ਭੇਦੁ ਬਿਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਜਾਨ ਬੀਅਉ ॥

इह पधति ते मत चूकहि रे मन भेदु बिभेदु न जान बीअउ ॥

ih paDhat tay mat chookeh ray man bhayd bibhayd na jaan bee-a-o.

O mortal being, do not leave this path; do not think that there is any difference between God and Guru.

ਪਰਤਛਿ ਰਿਦੈ ਗੁਰ ਅਰਜੁਨ ਕੈ ਹਰਿ ਪੂਰਨ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਿ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਲੀਅਉ ॥੫॥

परतछि रिदै गुर अरजुन कै हरि पूरन ब्रहमि निवासु लीअउ ॥५॥

partachh ridai gur arjun kai har pooran barahm nivaas lee-a-o. ||5||

The Perfect Lord God has manifested Himself; He dwells in the heart of Guru Arjun. ||5||

ਜਬ ਲਉ ਨਹੀ ਭਾਗ ਲਿਲਾਰ ਉਦੈ ਤਬ ਲਉ ਭ੍ਰਮਤੇ ਫਿਰਤੇ ਬਹੁ ਧਾਯਉ ॥

जब लउ नही भाग लिलार उदै तब लउ भ्रमते फिरते बहु धायउ ॥

jab la-o nahee bhaag lilaar udai tab la-o bharamtay firtay baho Dhaa-ya-o.

As long as the destiny written upon my forehead was not activated, I wandered around lost, running in all directions.

ਕਲਿ ਘੋਰ ਸਮੁਦ੍ਰ ਮੈ ਬੂਡਤ ਥੇ ਕਬਹੂ ਮਿਟਿ ਹੈ ਨਹੀ ਰੇ ਪਛੁਤਾਯਉ ॥

कलि घोर समुद्र मै बूडत थे कबहू मिटि है नही रे पछुतायउ ॥

kal ghor samudar mai boodat thay kabhoo mit hai nahee ray pachhotaa-ya-o.

I was drowning in the horrible world-ocean of this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, and my remorse would never have ended.

ਤਤੁ ਬਿਚਾਰੁ ਯਹੈ ਮਥੁਰਾ ਜਗ ਤਾਰਨ ਕਉ ਅਵਤਾਰੁ ਬਨਾਯਉ ॥

ततु बिचारु यहै मथुरा जग तारन कउ अवतारु बनायउ ॥

tat bichaar yahai mathuraa jag taaran ka-o avtaar banaa-ya-o.

O Mat'huraa, consider this essential truth: to save the world, the Lord incarnated Himself.

ਜਪ੍ਯ੍ਯਉ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਅਰਜੁਨ ਦੇਵ ਗੁਰੂ ਫਿਰਿ ਸੰਕਟ ਜੋਨਿ ਗਰਭ ਨ ਆਯਉ ॥੬॥

जप्यउ जिन्ह अरजुन देव गुरू फिरि संकट जोनि गरभ न आयउ ॥६॥

jap-ya-o jinH arjun dayv guroo fir sankat jon garabh na aa-ya-o. ||6||

Whoever meditates on Guru Arjun Dayv, shall not have to pass through the painful womb of reincarnation ever again. ||6||

ਕਲਿ ਸਮੁਦ੍ਰ ਭਏ ਰੂਪ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਉਧਾਰਨੁ ॥

कलि समुद्र भए रूप प्रगटि हरि नाम उधारनु ॥

kal samudar bha-ay roop pargat har naam uDhaaran.

In the ocean of this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Lord's Name has been revealed in the Form of Guru Arjun, to save the world.

ਬਸਹਿ ਸੰਤ ਜਿਸੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਦੁਖ ਦਾਰਿਦ੍ਰ ਨਿਵਾਰਨੁ ॥

बसहि संत जिसु रिदै दुख दारिद्र निवारनु ॥

baseh sant jis ridai dukh daridar nivaaran.

Pain and poverty are taken away from that person, within whose heart the Saint abides.

ਨਿਰਮਲ ਭੇਖ ਅਪਾਰ ਤਾਸੁ ਬਿਨੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥

निरमल भेख अपार तासु बिनु अवरु न कोई ॥

nirmal bhaykh apaar taas bin avar na ko-ee.

He is the Pure, Immaculate Form of the Infinite Lord; except for Him, there is no other at all.

ਮਨ ਬਚ ਜਿਨਿ ਜਾਣਿਅਉ ਭਯਉ ਤਿਹ ਸਮਸਰਿ ਸੋਈ ॥

मन बच जिनि जाणिअउ भयउ तिह समसरि सोई ॥

man bach jin jaani-a-o bha-ya-o tih samsar so-ee.

Whoever knows Him in thought, word and deed, becomes just like Him.

ਧਰਨਿ ਗਗਨ ਨਵ ਖੰਡ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਸ੍ਵਰੂਪੀ ਰਹਿਓ ਭਰਿ ॥

धरनि गगन नव खंड महि जोति स्वरूपी रहिओ भरि ॥

Dharan gagan nav khand meh jot savroopee rahi-o bhar.

He is totally pervading the earth, the sky and the nine regions of the planet. He is the Embodiment of the Light of God.

ਭਨਿ ਮਥੁਰਾ ਕਛੁ ਭੇਦੁ ਨਹੀ ਗੁਰੁ ਅਰਜੁਨੁ ਪਰਤਖ੍ਯ੍ਯ ਹਰਿ ॥੭॥੧੯॥

भनि मथुरा कछु भेदु नही गुरु अरजुनु परतख्य हरि ॥७॥१९॥

bhan mathuraa kachh bhayd nahee gur arjun partakh-y har. ||7||19||

So speaks Mat'huraa: there is no difference between God and Guru; Guru Arjun is the Personification of the Lord Himself. ||7||19||

ਅਜੈ ਗੰਗ ਜਲੁ ਅਟਲੁ ਸਿਖ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਸਭ ਨਾਵੈ ॥

अजै गंग जलु अटलु सिख संगति सभ नावै ॥

ajai gang jal atal sikh sangat sabh naavai.

The stream of the Lord's Name flows like the Ganges, invincible and unstoppable. The Sikhs of the Sangat all bathe in it.

ਨਿਤ ਪੁਰਾਣ ਬਾਚੀਅਹਿ ਬੇਦ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਮੁਖਿ ਗਾਵੈ ॥

नित पुराण बाचीअहि बेद ब्रहमा मुखि गावै ॥

nit puraan baachee-ah bayd barahmaa mukh gaavai.

It appears as if the holy texts like the Puraanaas are being recited there and Brahma himself sings the Vedas.

ਅਜੈ ਚਵਰੁ ਸਿਰਿ ਢੁਲੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਲੀਅਉ ॥

अजै चवरु सिरि ढुलै नामु अम्रितु मुखि लीअउ ॥

ajai chavar sir dhulai naam amrit mukh lee-a-o.

The invincible chauri, the fly-brush, waves over His head; with His mouth, He drinks in the Ambrosial Nectar of the Naam.

ਗੁਰ ਅਰਜੁਨ ਸਿਰਿ ਛਤ੍ਰੁ ਆਪਿ ਪਰਮੇਸਰਿ ਦੀਅਉ ॥

गुर अरजुन सिरि छत्रु आपि परमेसरि दीअउ ॥

gur arjun sir chhatar aap parmaysar dee-a-o.

The Transcendent Lord Himself has placed the royal canopy over the head of Guru Arjun.

ਮਿਲਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਅੰਗਦ ਅਮਰ ਗੁਰ ਗੁਰੁ ਰਾਮਦਾਸੁ ਹਰਿ ਪਹਿ ਗਯਉ ॥

मिलि नानक अंगद अमर गुर गुरु रामदासु हरि पहि गयउ ॥

mil naanak angad amar gur gur raamdaas har peh ga-ya-o.

Guru Nanak, Guru Angad, Guru Amar Daas and Guru Raam Daas met together before the Lord.

ਹਰਿਬੰਸ ਜਗਤਿ ਜਸੁ ਸੰਚਰ੍ਯ੍ਯਉ ਸੁ ਕਵਣੁ ਕਹੈ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੁ ਮੁਯਉ ॥੧॥

हरिबंस जगति जसु संचर्यउ सु कवणु कहै स्री गुरु मुयउ ॥१॥

harbans jagat jas sanchar-ya-o so kavan kahai saree gur mu-ya-o. ||1||

So speaks HARBANS: Their Praises echo and resound all over the world; who can possibly say that the Great Gurus are dead? ||1||

ਦੇਵ ਪੁਰੀ ਮਹਿ ਗਯਉ ਆਪਿ ਪਰਮੇਸ੍ਵਰ ਭਾਯਉ ॥

देव पुरी महि गयउ आपि परमेस्वर भायउ ॥

dayv puree meh ga-ya-o aap parmaysvar bhaa-ya-o.

When it was the Will of the Transcendent Lord Himself, Guru Raam Daas went to the City of God.

ਹਰਿ ਸਿੰਘਾਸਣੁ ਦੀਅਉ ਸਿਰੀ ਗੁਰੁ ਤਹ ਬੈਠਾਯਉ ॥

हरि सिंघासणु दीअउ सिरी गुरु तह बैठायउ ॥

har singhaasan dee-a-o siree gur tah bathaa-ya-o.

The Lord offered Him His Royal Throne, and seated the Guru upon it.

ਰਹਸੁ ਕੀਅਉ ਸੁਰ ਦੇਵ ਤੋਹਿ ਜਸੁ ਜਯ ਜਯ ਜੰਪਹਿ ॥

रहसु कीअउ सुर देव तोहि जसु जय जय ज्मपहि ॥

rahas kee-a-o sur dayv tohi jas ja-y ja-y jampeh.

The angels and gods were delighted; they proclaimed and celebrated Your victory, O Guru.

ਅਸੁਰ ਗਏ ਤੇ ਭਾਗਿ ਪਾਪ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਕੰਪਹਿ ॥

असुर गए ते भागि पाप तिन्ह भीतरि क्मपहि ॥

asur ga-ay tay bhaag paap tinH bheetar kampeh.

The demons ran away; their sins made them shake and tremble inside.

ਕਾਟੇ ਸੁ ਪਾਪ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਨਰਹੁ ਕੇ ਗੁਰੁ ਰਾਮਦਾਸੁ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਪਾਇਯਉ ॥

काटे सु पाप तिन्ह नरहु के गुरु रामदासु जिन्ह पाइयउ ॥

kaatay so paap tinH marahu kay gur raamdaas jinH paa-i-ya-o.

Those people who found Guru Raam Daas were rid of their sins.

ਛਤ੍ਰੁ ਸਿੰਘਾਸਨੁ ਪਿਰਥਮੀ ਗੁਰ ਅਰਜੁਨ ਕਉ ਦੇ ਆਇਅਉ ॥੨॥੨੧॥੯॥੧੧॥੧੦॥੧੦॥੨੨॥੬੦॥੧੪੩॥

छत्रु सिंघासनु पिरथमी गुर अरजुन कउ दे आइअउ ॥२॥२१॥९॥११॥१०॥१०॥२२॥६०॥१४३॥

chhatar singhaasan pirathmee gur arjun ka-o day aa-i-a-o. ||2||21||9||11||10||10||22||60||143||

He gave the Royal Canopy and Throne to Guru Arjun, and came home. ||2||21||9||11||10||10||22||60||143||

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The word God can be misleading when trying to understand Indian religions. God is traditionaly in the Judaeo-Christian tradition seen as seperate from his creation. But in most of the non-dual traditions of India God himself creates and then pervades his creation. There are differing degrees of non-duality, Sikhi Sidhant is centred Around Ik Oamkaar. IK is absolute non-duality. From IK creation is spawned. This creator is his creation. The point of the above is that to say Guru Nanak Sahib is "God" from the Indian Tradition point of view is not wrong. Neither is saying you are God or that stone is God. It all depends on the purity of yourself, If a person is free from maya he can see God in everything so he can say this is God that is God. But he would never call himself God. If a person is entagled in thoughts of past & future his mind is not pure enough to receive the grace of "God" which always with him. For this person he does not see God in every place but experiences events as seperate from him.

This is the totality of God. God can also be split up into nirgun and sargun which is with qualities and without qualities. The aim of spiritual practice is to go from sargun to nirgun, from the changing to the changeless, impermanent to permanent. Guru Nanak Sahib had to live in manifest reality to teach us the path to the unmanifest, the way I look at it is that Nirgun "God" contracted himself and limited himself, to provide humanity with a guide that could release them from bondage. This contraction and limitation can be called maya, it also has many other names.

Guru Nanak Sahib was special he was sent from Akaal Purakh for a special mission to provide an option for ALL people for a means to become immortal, and escape the world which is pain.

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Guru Nanak Sahib as a man was a limited personality, like I said he was nirgun "God" contracted and limited so he could give average people a means to salvation. To ask if Guru Nanak Sahib is creator of the World from the Indian perspective is absurd because as a man he was enveloped in the covering sheaths of maya, which allowed him to function on this plane of existence. You could then say Guru Nanak Sahib was the same as everyone because we all are limited by Maya. But this is externally, Internally Guru Nanak Sahib knew all this and he identified perfectly with the Timeless Creator. Identifying fully with the creator means you are in effect God, but because you are still in a living Body you have to carry out your Karma and be enveloped in the limiting sheaths.

So there are normal people enveloped in maya in the covering sheaths, then there are a very few people who live in maya but do not associate themselves with their bodies, their full concentration is on God, awake or asleep. These people have to live within the confines of their body for a certain time to finish their Karam. Then there is the totality of "God" that an individual cannot fully conceive whilst being limited in maya by the covering sheaths.

"God" had to limit himself to become Guru Nanak Sahib. Whilst Guru Nanak Sahib was functioning as a Human Being how can also be creator of the world? Guru Nanak Sahib was the creator creation and dissolution of the world, and he was also Guru Nanak Sahib. Akaal Purakh is timeless, beyond time, this also has to be kept in mind. The acts of creator creation dissloution are "ongoing" on a macrocosmic and microcosmic scale.

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Gurfateh

Dear Amardeep Ji,

Kindly read the origeonal post.In fact they are word of God via Gurus,Sikhs(like Bhatts) or other Devotees.

Nanak is told that one who worship

God is slavaged by God only and that only is our Guru.

Page 306, Line 14

ਨਾਨਕ ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਰ ਸਫਲ ਦਰਸਨ ਕੀ ਫਿਰਿ ਲੇਖਾ ਮੰਗੈ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥੨॥

नानक सेवा करहु हरि गुर सफल दरसन की फिरि लेखा मंगै न कोई ॥२॥

naanak sayvaa karahu har gur safal darsan kee fir laykhaa mangai na ko-ee. ||2||

O Nanak, serve the Guru, the Lord Incarnate; the Blessed Vision of His Darshan is profitable, and in the end, you shall not be called to account. ||2||

Nanak is not the writer but one addressed By God.

raamdaas guroo jag taaran ka-o gur jot arjun maahi Dharee. ||4||

Guru Raam Daas, to save the world, enshrined the Guru's Light into Guru Arjun. ||4||

Guru of Fourth Master Guru Ramdas,put light of enlighement in Fifth Master Shri Guru Arjun Dev Ji.

In Bhatts at alter also does Akal speak.In Holy Kuran also via Ruh Al Kuddus Jibrael God only speaks and similar saying can be found.

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Guru Nanak Dev Ji was true Guru ( Teacher) and taught the right path. He was messenger of God.

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Basic spiritual beleive in Sikh Dharam

Sikhi beleives in God does not incaranate fully but God transcedents his attributes in his creation. For eg- Guru's had most not all attributes of Nirgun Paratama(God which we cannot see).

- Sikhi beleive in advait worship - worship only one creator, seeing that one creator in his creation (Parbhram Upasana).

- Sikhi beleive God has two forms- one form which does not change (Nirguna-orginal form) ie- God- indescrible, unreachable, limitless ,timeless etc, and second form is sarguna (the one which we can see), God transform it's attributes in sargun form. Sargun form can be considers as Guru Avtar, Nit Avtar (Sants/Saints) etc.

- Sikhi beleive only way to get to God, is via Grace of Guru from social religious perspective- grace of Satguru Nanak in Sikh Dharma, from spiritual aspect meaning of Guru can be broaden to any person who brings one from darkness into light. But that does not mean, one should not make a effort by thinking - i m going to get grace one day regardless without making any effort , that means one should defaniately make a effort to acquire grace of Guru by listening and following discourses of Guru. Eg- taking amrit is only step as like admission to school, there are many grades, many levels one has to pass before getting grace of Satguru Nanak.

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Statement of Guru being God can be both true and false. Depending on the context of the statement I ll explain my reasonings.

This statement is true from a context that Guru indeed has maximum attributes of God and sargun face of God ..sargun and nirgun cannot be separated, they are part of each other..but it's false at the same time because even though Guru does have maximum attributes of God, no avtar can have exactly full attributes of God. Remember God does not incarnate itself fully into human form but transcedents his attributes into avtars where as Guru Avtar is consider highest of high and nit avtars are consider as saints. As you said, there is fine line difference. That difference is not there to prove that one should not take guidance from guru regarding mukhti but to know divine law that God has two forms, one form does not have any upadi(change) which is nirgun but sargun form of God have change, is because of change, sargun form comes in this world to benefit human kind to join broken souls with Akaal Purkh(God). Before this creation, only thing ever there was Nirgun God, but when Nirgun form decided to have a thought, that thought itself is a change in its non-transcedental state, that thought itself created the creation into many forms, created amount of attributes which were given to his own roop-sargun form of God in form of avtars to help his creation ,to give energy etc.

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they were god. will explain why later but best explanation is in the Jap Ji Sahib Steek by Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Bhindrawalae

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they were god. will explain why later but best explanation is in the Jap Ji Sahib Steek by Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Bhindrawalae

isnt that steek of baba ji where he explains guru nanak dev ji were highest guru avtar of all avtars ever came into this earth?

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this is the following that i have written. i am currently in the process of writing a complete translation of the Sri Jap Ji Sahib. The following is a start of the Japji Sahib in the book

One day while Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji were holding a congregation one of the Sikhs asked “What type of incarnation was the first Sikh Guru, Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji and were they independent and complete?â€

According to Hindu belief there are many types of incarnations but for God there are six. These are the following; -

- Ansa Avtar

- Avesha Avtar

- Nit Avtar

- Namitak Avtar

- Pooran Avtar

- Pooran Tam Avtar

To this question Guru Gobind Singh Ji answered the following; -

1) Ansa Avtar is an incarnation of the Lord in the form of a righteous king who rules the people of his kingdom in accordance to the will of God. The people of the kingdom revere their ruler as God

2) Avesha Avtar is an incarnation or a divine form of God, which appears in order to please its devotee such as that of a statue drinking milk from Bhagat Namdev Ji. It is also the form of Parasram who was born without divine powers but acquired them later on in his life through devotion to God.

3) Nit Avtar is the form of God as a saint on earth. These are Sants, Mahapurkh, Brahmgiani, etc.

4) Namitak Avtar is the form of God that was assumed by Narsingh and Bawan. Narsingh came to the earth in order to protect his devotee Prahlad while Bawan came in order to deceive King Bali. After both had done their respected tasks they went back to heaven and never actually took birth on the earth.

5) Pooran Avtar is the incarnation that has 16 divine attributes and characteristics. Only Krishna has been born of this form.

6) Pooran Tam Avtar is regarded as that of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji as they came to the earth with the same powers as they had in heaven as the supreme Lord. They also came into the world already with knowledge and did not need to find any teachers, as they were already the one true master.

* According to Bhindra Samparda of Damdami Taksal the six avtars differ. They are written and explained below. These are the following; -

- Ansa Avtar

- Avesha Avtar

- Kalaa Avtar

- Nit Avtar

- Namit Avtar

- Pooran Avtar

To this question Guru Gobind Singh Ji answered the following; -

1) Ansa Avtar is an incarnation of the Lord in the form of a righteous king who rules the people of his kingdom in accordance to the will of God. They treat all of the people of their kingdom as if they were their own children and care for them as a father would do for his offspring. An example of this type of incarnation is that of King Manu or King Prithu.

2) Avesha Avtar is an incarnation or a divine form of God. This is a form of God, which is initially born or created without any powers however through the love devotion and meditation of the Lords name that individual gains powers. An example of this incarnation is one of Vishnu’s incarnation by the name Parasram. When he was initially born he had no powers but through the worship of God he gained spiritual powers.

3) Kalaa Avtar is an incarnation in which for the sake of the world or for a certain need have some types of powers. Such as Vishnu’s first two Avtars of Mach and Kach. In the form of Mach Avtar, which was an incarnation in the form of a fish, he had two powers in order to destroy the demon known and Sankhasar and save the Vedas from the depth of the sea. In the form of the Kach Avtar , which was the incarnation in the form of a tortoise, he had two powers out of the sixteen so that he could balance the Sumer Mountain on his back so that the ocean could be churned. These incarnations are distinct to the rest of the people of the world and are known as Kalaa Avtars.

4) Nit Avtar is the form of God as a saint on earth. These are Sants, Mahapurkh, Brahmgiani, etc. They come to the earth in order to spread the conventional rules, traditions and practices of the meditation of God to the people

5) Namit Avtar is an incarnation, which comes to the earth in order to complete a certain task, and following this disappears. An example of this is when the devotee of God by the name of Prahlad was in danger Vishnu assumed the form of Narsingh and came to protect him. Vishnu also assume the form of Bavan Avtar in order to trick King Bali into giving the control of the Heavens and Earth back to the demi gods. Following both of the incarnations completing their specific tasks they disappeared.

6) Pooran Avtar is the incarnation of Sri Krishna and Sri Ram Chandar out of the 24 incarnations of Vishnu. Sri Ram Chandar had 14 of the 16 powers while Sri Krishna possessed all 16 powers.

The sixteen powers or qualities possessed by the incarnations are the following; -

Knowledge, Attention, Virtuous Acts, Persistence, Moderation, Faith, Charity, Skill, Meditation, Loving Acts, Control over Passion, Spiritualism, Mercy, Solemn Promise, Intelligence and a Clear Mind.

There are another sixteen powers or qualities possessed by the incarnations which are written about. These are the following; -

Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Sky, Vital Air for Breathing, Organs, Name of God, Actions, Faith, Place in Society, Devotion, Incantation, Desire, Semen and Physique

After explaining this the congregation asked, “Are Guru Nanak Dev Ji the same as the Pooran Avtar or do they not possess all of the qualities?â€

Guru Gobind Singh Ji replied, “Guru Nanak Dev Ji did not lack any of the qualities. They however were greater for five reasons.â€

to be continued

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continued from the last

Guru Gobind Singh Ji went on to explain the five qualities.

1) Shakti – This means powers.

Sri Ram Chandar showed his powers to his mother Kashuliya. When his mother went to pray to the goddess at that point Sri Ram Chandar replaced the image of the goddess with himself to show her his powers.

Sri Krishna also showed his powers to his mother Devki. He pretended to eat some dirt so when she forced him to open his mouth and see what he had eaten he showed that he had the whole of creation in his mouth. She saw the complete universe. During the Mahabharat war Sri Krishna showed his disciple Arjan a divine form of himself called the Vairat Saroop (explained further on).

Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji were born in the village of Talwandi and at that moment they showed their mother Mata Tripta Ji and aunt their miracle. At the ambrosial hour all of the demi gods came to worship Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji. They sat Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji on a throne and started to worship them and bow to them. They rubbed sandalwood into the skin of Guru Nanak Dev Ji and placed a garland of flowers around their neck. They then made a supplication to Guru Nanak Dev Ji and said, “O protector of the meek and true king. You are the transcendent formless being. You have taken this form and come to the world in order to save the world and all of humanity. You are also the protector of all of the demi gods.†In this way the demi gods were making supplications to Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji. At that point Mata Tripta awoke and wondered who was around her son and revering him? At that point all of the demi gods disappeared. She saw that her son had marks of saffron and sandalwood all over him and on his forehead and the smell of the sandalwood was overwhelming. At that point Mata Tripta Ji gained full faith that Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji was indeed the incarnation of the divine Lord. But at that moment in order to conceal the powers of Guru Nanak Dev Ji he covered his mothers mind in the veil of illusion, which is called Maya. Just as a child cries in order to get milk that is what Guru Nanak Dev Ji did, by doing so Mata Tripta Ji forgot what had just occurred and became attached to her child. For this reason they are no less then Sri Ram Chandar and Sri Krishna in the amount of power they possess.

They are greater however due to other miracles. Whilst being asleep a cobra provided Guru Nanak Dev Ji with shade. Another occasion the shade of a tree covered them with shade even though the shade was in a different direction to all the others. They replenished a field with its entire crop when cows had eaten all of the harvest. In Medina the grave of the Islamic prophet paid their salutations to Guru Nanak Dev Ji. In Mecca the Kabba turned in the direction that Guru Nanak Dev Ji faced their feet. It is still in the direction that Guru Nanak Dev Ji had their feet pointing. Guru Nanak Dev Ji made the soap nuts on a tree they were sitting under taste sweet and are still to this day and can be eaten. Guru Nanak Dev Ji took all of the powers away from the Sidhs and then later returned them. Guru Nanak Dev Ji imprinted their palm print in a rock that was being hurled at them. Guru Nanak Dev Ji parted rivers and mountains in order to gain access to the other side when travelling. Guru Nanak Dev Ji was able to walk on water as if it was land. Guru Nanak Dev Ji was able to show a person thousands of heavens and underworlds in a second. Guru Nanak Dev Ji was able to make a boiling cauldron turn cold in a second. These are but a few examples of how great Guru Nanak Dev Ji were and how their powers were superior.

The other incarnations used their powers to increase their popularity and greatness. Guru Nanak Dev Ji used their powers in order to make other people learn the correct path and believe in one God. They did not do it in order to make them more popular.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji showed their powers in order to save others and to destroy their ego. In order to destroy Vali Kandhari’s ego they took his water from him. They prevented Gorakh Nath from having the strength to pick up a piece of wheat to destroy their ego.

For these reasons Guru Nanak Dev Ji have an endless amount of powers. They have no powers less then any other incarnations but have more and are greater. They are the holders of great power.

Sri Krishna was the possessor of 16 powers but Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji had an infinite number of powers and was the incarnation of the divine Lord.

2) Viaktee – This is the name for the form of a being.

The form of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji is greater then that of all of the other incarnations. Throughout the whole life of Sri Ram Chandar’s life and Sri Krishna’s life they never grew any facial hair. During the youthful years of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji’s life when they had no facial hair we can say that there form was equal to the other incarnations. Then a beautiful beard grew on the form of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji so that other saints would recognise them and their form became greater.

In the treta age when Sri Ram Chandar went to marry Sita they left Ayodhiya to go to Janakpur in order to meet her. All of the of the royal maidens were enchanted by the beauty of Sri Ram Chandar. Due to this Sri Ram Chandar told them that he would satisfy their needs in the Dwaper age.

In the Dwaper age the royal maidens assumed the form of the Gopis and Sri Krishna tended to their physical and sexual needs.

Due to the forms of both Sri Ram Chandar and Sri Krishna they caused lust with the opposite sex and could not eradicate this cardinal sin.

When Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji went to the area of Sangla Deep, which is now referred to as Sri Lanka all of the beautiful women tried to enchant Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji through the power of the word of God destroyed the lust that was in the heart of the beautiful women. By singing the gospel of the Lord and saying the name of God they were able to bring peace to the hearts of the beautiful women. They no longer lusted and by seeing the Guru they were forever in bliss and were at peace.

Due to being able to dispel the lust in others the form of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji was greater then that of the other incarnations.

3) Pragya – This is the name of a person’s knowledge of God and the name of God.

Sri Ram Chandar made Rishi Vashisht their spiritual master. They spent 68 days with them in which they learned the Vashisht Puran in order to gain the divine knowledge of God. He then spent 8 days with Rishi Vishwamitar who he adopted as his master in martial arts from who they learned the knowledge of weapons.

Sri Krishna made Rishi Darbasha their spiritual master. They spent 8 days with then in which they learned the scriptures in order to gain the divine knowledge of God. He then spent 64 days with Rishi Sandeepan who he adopted as his master in martial arts from who they learned the knowledge of weapons.

The father of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji, Baba Kaliyan Chand (Kalu Ji) took their son to the teacher Gopal Pandhay in order to study. They went on the first day in accordance to what his parents wanted and learned the alphabet. The second day they went they just remained silent. Even when Gopal Pandhay told him to read Guru Nanak Dev Ji ignored him. Gopal Pandhay then asked, “All of the other children are reading and learning. Why are you not doing the same?†Guru Nanak Dev Ji said, “ All these things that you are teaching can be erased. One should learn those things that stay with an individual.†The teacher thought to himself and said to Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji, “I am unable to teach this to you, I only know how to teach mathematics and basic language. With your grace please tell us of this knowledge you want to be taught.â€

Guru Nanak Dev Ji in answer to this sang the word of God. After hearing this divine hymn Gopal Pandhay was reassured about what Guru Ji wanted to hear and it was about the divine Lord. By giving this short discourse Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji exalted and delighted Gopal Pandhay.

On the third day when Baba Kaliyan Chand came to the school with Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji, they asked Gopal Pandhay to teach their son.

Gopal Pandhay said, “ Your son is the creator of all of the knowledge. Do not worry about him learning. They are not here to learn but will teach others instead.â€

Due to this Baba Kaliyan Chand took Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji to Mulla Noor Deen in order to learn Farsi. Again on their first day Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji said a hymn, which was a divine message from God.

By doing this Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji taught the people they were supposed to learn from rather then gaining knowledge from their teachings. Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji gave the Mulla divine knowledge and exalted them.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji never made any person their spiritual master. Rather the people they were sent to learn from became their disciples and accepted Guru Nanak Dev Ji as their spiritual master.

The other incarnations for a small number of days adopted spiritual masters in order to gain knowledge. Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji was unique in the way that they already had divine knowledge and never needed to learn from another.

Unlike the other incarnations Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji never had to learn the knowledge of weapons. They used the word of God as a metaphysical weapon to destroy the vices of other people. Due to the greater knowledge of the word of God and using it as a weapon Guru Nanak Dev Ji were greater then any other incarnation. Many philosophers and Sikh writers do suggest that they did have complete knowledge of weapons but never used them. They passed this knowledge onto one of their devotees by the name of Baba Buddha Ji to teach the Sikhs when they needed it. Baba Buddha Ji were later the teacher of marital arts to the sixth Sikh Guru, Sri Guru Hargobind Ji.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji did not have less intelligence then that of the other incarnations but more. The intelligence that they possessed was infinite and greater then all others. No other incarnation even came close to the intelligence and knowledge possessed by Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

to be continued

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continued from the last

4) Kartab – This is ones show of skill.

In the age of Treta the life of Sri Ram Chandar lasted for 10,000 years. During that time the only time they showed their skill when they were exiled for 14 years. During that time Ravan kidnapped the wife of Sri Ram Chandar. Due to this Ram and Ravan waged war against each other. Ram killed the demon Ravan and freed his wife Sita and the other demi gods that had been captured. After killing Ravan, Ram appointed Bhabhikhan as the new ruler of Sri Lanka. After the 14 years of exile he went back to rule the kingdom of Ayodhiya. Whilst he was ruling he made a promise that no child should die before their mother and father. After making this promise a son of a Brahman who lived in Ayodhiya died. The Brahman came to Sri Ram Chandar and accused him of being a liar. He stated that Sri Ram Chandar had no power as the promise that he made failed. He said if he did have the power then he should make his son come back to life.

Sri Ram Chandar asked the Brahman why this child had died. He was told it was due to a person of a low caste had started to meditate in the jungle, he stated this was the only reason why the child had died.

At that time a male of the low caste by the name of Sanboock was hung upside down in a well meditating on the Lord. Sri Ram Chandar went to that location and beheaded Sanboock and brought the son of the Brahman back to life. This account is written about in both the Balmik Ramayan and the Sri Dasam Granth.

By accident Sri Ram Chandar fought against his sons Love and Kush. His sons injured or killed his entire army including Sri Ram Chandar. Only due to the goodness of Sita he was brought back to life. Still Sri Ram Chandar passed the reign of the kingdom over to his two sons. This was due to his attachment with his family.

Sri Krishna after killing Kans he placed his maternal grandfather named Ugarsain on the throne to rule the kingdom. This showed his attachment to his family.

However Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji for the first 28 years stayed in the city of Sultanpur and worked in the granary. After doing this they went into the Beas River and went to heaven there. Here they adopted God as their only spiritual master. They were given the root incantation here and following which saved all of humanity with the knowledge of the Lord. They travelled far and wide doing this. They did not speak of any other demi god or prophet other then God.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji did not show any attachment to their sons but showed may feats of skill. Instead of installing one of their sons in their position they appointed one of their disciples.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji met many evil kings such as Devloot, Lajvarad and Babur. Rather then killing them they gave them knowledge in order to make them understand the message of God and to help humanity. The demon Kauda, the thieves Bhumai and Sajjan were made to repent what they were doing and became saints. They made all the evil people good with the teachings they imparted. They saw no difference between social class, gender, age, etc and imparted the same message to all the people of the world.

Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji in order to avoid many troubles showed much skill.

Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji did not show any less skill then any other incarnation. They actually showed greater skill then all others.

5) Aayoo – these are acts performed for others good.

Sri Ram Chandar lived for 10,000 years. Due to listening to the Brahmans they killed a person of a low caste. They also handed the reign of the land to his two sons.

Sri Krishna lived for 1,000 years. He believed Jadva to be an egotistical person due to this he got Rishi Darbasha to curse him so that he would die.

Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji was a king and a saint at the same time. In order to bring any other being back to life they never killed another. By bringing that person back to life they would give them the name of God so that they could save and bring back to life many other people.

This is the same with the 3rd, 5th, 9th and 10th Sikh Guru’s. The third Guru, Sri Guru Amar Das Ji whilst the spiritual master of the Sikhs for 22 years no one died in the village of Gobindwal. No matter if old or young no one died during the 22 years that Sri Guru Amar Das Ji was in the city of Gobindwal. No one was ill as well. This showed that the Guru’s of the Sikhs were greater then that of the incarnations.

Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji lived for 70 years and during that time travelled more then Sri Ram Chandar and Sri Krishna did. Sri Ram Chandar and Sri Krishna never travelled further then Indian and Sri Lanka. Guru Nanak Dev Ji went to Kashmir, Nepal, Bhutan, China, Tibet, Sikam, Burma, Africa, Arabia, Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Turkmenistan and Russia. They travelled to these countries and more all by foot. In the ballads written by Bhai Gurdas Ji it states the Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji actually travelled the whole world and met all the people of all nations. Guru Nanak Dev Ji saved that many souls that they cannot all be accounted for.

In such a small life Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji helped an infinite number of people. They got the root incantation from heaven and spread it through the seven lands of India and all of the continents throughout the world. They taught all the people to meditate on the name of the one true Lord. They started the faith of Sikhism. They created the true congregation. They made other people meditate on the Lord.

As of all of the good things that Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji did during such a short span of life none of the other incarnation did.

The examples show that Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji did not lack any Shakti, Viaktee, Pragya, Kartab and Aayoo considering they had a shorter life then any of the other incarnations. If they are an incarnation they cannot be seen as any less of an incarnation then a Pooran Avtar. If they are a Pooran Avtar they are not like Vishnu’s incarnations of Sri Ram Chandar or Sri Krishna. Sri Ram Chandar possessed 14 divine qualities while Sri Krishna possessed 16 divine qualities. However in the age of Kaljug having 16 divine qualities was not sufficient. For this reason Guru Nanak Dev Ji possessed an infinite number of divine qualities. This made Guru Nanak Dev Ji greater then the two greatest incarnations of Vishnu. Guru Nanak Dev Ji were themselves God incarnated on the earth and not a demi god.

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continued from the last

The congregation heard this and asked Guru Gobind Singh Ji, “ We believe that Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji are a divine incarnation and a complete one. But tell us what authenticity you have to say that they are complete?â€

Guru Gobind Singh Ji said, “There are three types of authenticity that I can give you. They are the Vedic authenticity, Lokik authenticity and Svai authenticity.â€

Guru Gobind Singh Ji went on to explain all three.

1) Vedic authenticity. This is where the proof of the incarnation is written about in the scriptures.

Examples of this are written about in the Gopal Tapnee Upanishad, Surtee Parmaan & the Bhagvat Da Parmaan.

Another example to show that Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji are commonly regarded as God is written about in the Bhavishat Puran. Guru Nanak Dev Ji’s arrival on earth was predicted by Rishi Ved Vyas who wrote in the Bhavishat Puran 12 saloks in the 24th Adhayi (stanza). In this text it is written that in the Dark Age Guru Nanak Dev Ji will be the saviour of the world. These can be found from salok 33 to 44.

2) Lokik authenticity. This is where people from the period of time of the Guru’s wrote their own facts about the messengers of God.

An example of this is the writings of Bhai Gurdas Ji who state that Guru Nanak Dev Ji are themselves God incarnate. They state this in Var 1 stanza 23, Var 28 stanza 1 and Var 38 stanza 20.

The bhatts (bards) also wrote in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji also state that Guru Nanak Dev Ji were God themselves incarnate.

Without Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji along with their other forms as Guru’s including with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, there would never have been another incarnation or prophet who was equal to God. In the Bihangam Marg book and the Janam Sakhi it states that when Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji were in heaven God said to them, “Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji I am the transcendent God and you are the non transcendent God. Between us and yourself there is no difference.â€

This story again shows that Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji is the complete incarnation of God and no other.

3) Svai authenticity. This is the authenticity written by the following Gurus after Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

Examples of this are in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji where the other Guru’s have stated Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji are God.

The three authenticities show that Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji were in fact God and not an incarnation of any demi god. They were a complete incarnation.

Sri Ram Chandar were an incarnation of power and the ideal way of life. They were an incarnation attributed to truth.

Sri Krishna were an incarnation where they were attributed to passion and royalty. They played the role of the king and were filled with passion. Sri Krishna married 16,108 Gopis.

Parasram was an incarnation where they were attributed to the darkness and evil. This is due to him destroying the social class of the Kashatris 21 times during his life.

All three of these are incarnations of the demi god Vishnu and possessed all the three main virtues.

Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji possessed all of the virtues but were the form of God.

In the first age the incarnations came to look after all of humanity and creation. They destroyed their enemies. In the Bhagvat Gita and the Sri Dasam Granth it is written that at the end of the Dark Age the incarnation of Kalki will appear to destroy the wicked people. When the time is right that incarnation will appear. However Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji in the 6th and 10th form in order to protect righteousness they had to destroy an endless number of wicked people. Due to their deeds you can still see Hindus in India today, as without the Sikh Guru’s no Hindus would have survived. There is no doubt to the incarnation of the Sikh Gurus. The amount of teachings that the Gurus gave about religion and faith was far more then any other persons have done. No matter how many knowledgeable people there are, devotees of the lord and teachers they will never be equal to the Lord himself.

Many knowledgeable people have come to the world and shared their knowledge but have only done so with a certain social group. The message that was also given is only suitable for that group. The message of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji is for all of mankind. Those people who doubt the divine incarnation of God shall be destroyed.

Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji were the incarnation of God. They were the spiritual master of the world. From the beginning they were the true spiritual master.

hopefully that will answer the question posed on this thread. Kam

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i'll read your posts now, but i can see that you have concluded that He was God.

so tell me..who was he praying to? God cant pray to God...

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Gurfateh

God is self giver and self consumer(ape Data Ape Bhugta) even when you worship God it is in fact God worshippng the same.

Das would like to say it as per Sufis is Wadat ul Wajood while Wahdat ul Sabot/saqut? is more to do with dulity.

As per foermer nothing but God exists.

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i'll read your posts now, but i can see that you have concluded that He was God.

so tell me..who was he praying to? God cant pray to God...

Vaho Vaho Gobind Singh, Aaapy Gur (,) Chela

(he) is both the Desciple and the Divine Concsiousness.

When there is noting other than God, then he himself becomes the desciple, he himself is the begger, he himself is the King, he himself is the Guru. An Enlightened Master expresses this exact paradoxical leela, this play of the Divine Dance where the Master himself will express Vairaaag and he himself will express from a Divine Standpoint. He has realized that he is everything so it is so that Guru Nanak dev ji expressed Humility and prayer throughout their expressions from a Sevak's point of view.

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I think this debate is absurd as along as participants are not clear about fundamental theological terms and definitions.

As long as the terms incarnation and avatar are not properly defined this discussion will only move from one missunderstanding to another.

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1.The word incarnation derives from the latin incarnatio derived from the prefix in: in and caro, carnis: flesh. So incarnation literally means "enfleshment". In Christianity it refers to Jesus as incarnation of God the Son NOT God the Father. To say that God can become incarnate means that God becomes flesh.

2. He word avatara derives from the Sanskrit prefix ava:: designating a descending movement and the root TR, tarati: which means to cross. The avatara is literally the one who crosses from above down, the one who descends.

Differences:

The concept of incarnation emprisons the Divine in the flesh, thus limiting the Divine and compromising its Pure Essence. The concept of avatara is that of theophany, Divine manifestation: the saguna aspect of the Divine manifests itself in a pure sinless and perfect being.

To clarify the difference let us read a famous passage from Ibn Arabi's Fussus al Hikam on Jesus:

The statement that Jesus is God is not blasphemy. It is, in fact correct. al-Qaysarī writes explicitly that the statement that Jesus is God is correct and true insofar as Jesus is a specific epiphanic manifestation of the Divine Being (al-haqq). And the statement that he is the son of Mary is true without any doubt. The act of disbelief, according to Ibn ‘Arabī, is the union of the two statements, i.e. that Jesus the son of Mary (meaning his nasut) is God. It is the confusion of the human nature of Jesus (symbolized by referring to him as the son of Mary) and the Divine that is the source of the problem, not the idea that Jesus as a theophanic being is identical to God. Carney 2005:717

source:

Carney, ‘Abd al-Hakeem.2005. . Imamate and Love: The Discourse of the Divine in Islamic Mysticism in Journal of the American Academy of Religion 73, 705-730.

Regarding the position of the Guru in Sikhi we find a similar situation.

We have passages such as these:

The Guru is Govind, and Govind is the Guru, O Nanak; there is no difference between the two, o brother.||4||1||8||AGGS 442

There is no difference between the Supreme Lord and the Guru. ||4||11||AGGS 1142

So Mathura speaks: there is no difference between God and Guru; Guru Arjun is Hari himself manifested.||7||19||AGGS 1409

None of these passages talk of God incarnating, rather we see that they refer to the concept of theophany or avatara.

The bhattan de svayye clearly state that the Guru manifested himself as previous avataras as well. Yet at the same time we have a very clear warning from the Gurus themselves:

Let that mouth burn that says that the Lord (Thakur) takes birth. He is not born, nor does he die. He does not come and go (through the cycle of rebirths). AGGS 1136

This statement clearly condemns the concept of incarnation.

Guru Gobind Singh is even clearer:

Those who call us the Supreme Lord (Paramesar) shall all fall in the realm of hell. Know me as his servant and do not think of any difference between me and Him. BN VI: 32

Hence to say that Guru Nanak is God's incarnation is a grave heresy but to say that he is a theophanic manifestation or avatara is correct. The problem is that many people translate avatara as "incarnation" which is wrong and causes not only confusion but also false beliefs.

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if you all think it is heresy then you have attacked the katha of taksal of bhindra and sato gali as well as that of the nirmala sampardas. you can read their steeks as all the stuff i have written is from them. i am a person with no knowledge. i am but a fool

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Kam1825 the word used in their satiks is avatar NOT incarnation which does NOT exist in Sanskrit or Panjabi. Rather it is you by presenting a bad translation who has brought shame on these two great institutions of the Khalsa Panth. Always check the translations with the original text. In theology every word has a precise meaning and one needs to be extremey careful about how one translates these terms. Any mistake can be fatal and bring about disastrous consequences.

humbly yours

a Nirmala

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