Namdharis

[Guest BikramjitSingh]

This thread is separated from the mainstream Sikhs and sanatan Sikhism thread to keep that thread from going off on a tangent

Fateh Singh

I do not think that Ganda Singh who was a great historian was so petty to forge Baba Ram Singh's letters in order to make him appear to have been solely a follower of the Guru Granth Sahib. Rather than just statements, could you put up some references. I have a copy of Kukiyan di Vithia and I would be grateful for a reference to that work or any other that is available.

I have a few questions for you.

1. Why is the Sikh Ardas tampered with by the Kukas and instead of it being the work of Guru Gobind Singh as evidenced by the ' Var Sri Bhagauti Ji Ki Patishahi Daswin' , the kukas change it to 'Var Sri Bhagauti Ji Ki Patishahi Baranwin'. It is natural for the rest of the Kuka Ardas to have verses where Balak Singh and Ram Singh are referred to as the 11th and 12th Gurus, I may disagree with you but if the Kukas believe in their Guruships then that is between the Kukas and Waheguru. BUT tampering with the composition of Guru Gobind Singh in order to make it appear as though it is a composition of Baba Ram Singh is very serious sin.

2.Although the mainstream Sikhs have been accepting the Kukas who were executed by the British for killimg the Muslim butchers of Amritsar, I have a question. I have read that after the attacks the Kukas left behind a chakkar and a blue Dumalla on the scene. Since the Kukas did not carry these things on their person, it can only be assumed that these were left on the site deliberately in order to implicate the Nihangs and divert suspicion from the Kukas. As you may be aware, based on this piece of evidence a large number of Nihangs were arrested and tortured by the British in order to get their confessions to the crime. How do these deeds of the Kukas compare with the Sikh Martyrs in history who did not ever hide the facts of what they had done.

Gurfateh

Bikramjit Singh

[fatehsingh]

Bikramjit Singh,

Fateh Bullai Parvaan Karni

As for putting up references regarding the Hukamnamas that were falsely modified by Dr. Ganda Singhji, the fact that I, a Namdhari Singh, am telling you that I have read every Hukamnama printed and that their meanings are being falsely portrayed by Dr. Ganda Singhji should be enough shouldn't it? Did Dr. Ganda Singh EVER put up an ENTIRE Hukamnama so that the readers may use their own judgements? I doubt it. If I only use half a verse like 'Kaho Nanak Ham Neech Karama' and lie to people that Guru nanak was a bad person, should it be accepted!!??

There was a Hukamnama that was sent by Sri Sat Guru Ram Singh Ji to the Nihangs and Mahants of Akal Takhat scolding them for spreading 'Koorh' and harrassing the Namdhari Sikhs that were driven away from Gurdwaras that they gave their very heads to save. I wonder why Dr. Ganda Singhji did not use that Hukamnama to portray that Guru Ram Singh believed Guru Gobind Singh had given Gurgaddi to Guru Granth Sahib? I do not wish to hurt any mainstream Sikh's feelings and am therefore forced not to scan the specific Hukamnama and post it online. I infact apologize to have even discussed this matter with you but hope you would understand that when talking about these issues some 'hurt' and 'pain' are customary and hope you'd not take it personally.

I really didnot want to start a new thread because I know the majority of the members on this board will start reporting me to be propagating Namdharism and it'll all end up in name callings, anti-sikh stuff, etc. But now that you created it anyway, I might as well use it to answer back the false propaganda against the Namdhari Panth.

Your question 1 was that why is the Ardaas not the same. Well if you have ever laid eyes on the old Sikh Gutkas before the Singh Sabha was created, there is no mention of 'Guru Granth Sahib' neither. Yet today in the mainstream Sikh ardaas there is 'Guru Granth Sahib' after Guru Gobind Singh. Is this not tampering with Ardaas as well?

Anyway, I do not wish to question your religion and the things you do because what you do out of love for your Guru, even if it means making up 'Agya Bhai Akal Ki', is your wish and we are not 'hurt' by it. Everyone has the right to believe in a religion. I'm more interested in ridding the false propaganda against my religion.

Regarding the Ardaas, this is our belief and I do not expect anyone to believe in the same beliefs that we do but just to answer your question, have you thought about the times of the previous Gurus? The Sikhs themselves did add the Guru's names to the Ardaas did they not? So was that a sin? As you know Guru Teghbahader put the Aad Beed under the river Bias and told Dheermal to come get it. He also did the old Ardaas without saying the name of Guru Teghbahader Sahib. Only when he did take the Name of the present Guru did he find the Beed with the Guru's Kirpa. This is written in Suraj Parkash and not any Namdhari propaganda I'm sure you are aware of this. So just to clear your doubts, Namdhari Sikhs believe in the continuation of the Gurgaddi and hence the name of the present Gurus were added to the Ardaas. This is our belief and if you don't believe then it is up to you.

Also just to let you know the Ardaas has been modified in such as way that it DOES NOT sound like it is a composition of Guru Ram Singh Ji. We say 'Ik Oankar. Sri Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh. Sri Bhagauti Ji Sahai. Patshahi Baarvi.' (Kindly notice the 'full stops'). We DO NOT say 'Waar Sri Bhagauti Ji Ki Paatshahi Baarvi' which would have given the listener the idea that the Vaar Sri Bhagauti Ji Ki, i.e. Chandi Di vaar was composed by Guru Ram Singh. Hence it is clear that Gurbani is not tampered with. Vaar Sri Bhagauti Ji Ki (Chandi Di Vaar) is composed by Guru Gobind Singh, 'Paatshahi Dasvi', and we recite 'Patshahi Dasvi' as well when doing Chandi Di Vaar. I hope this once and for all answers this question.

2. You said that the Singhs left Chakkar and 'blue' dumala to back stab Nihangs. I do not know from where you have heard about all this but first of all it was a 'Safu' (Dastaar) and not any blue Dumala. Kukas do not wear or even touch blue clothes back in those days. Also it seems that like the rest of the mainstream Sikhs you think that Kukas did not care about 5ks and did not carry weapons. This is a mistake. The Kirpan was banned by the British but every Kuka carried an axe or any other weapon that could be secretly consealed in its place.

Now regarding the Chakkar, from what I know the Singhs approached another constable called 'Lal Singh' (who was infact a Namdhari) for weapons and hence he must have also given them the Chakkar. The only reason why it was left on the ground was because the Singhs did not go to a picnic but there was a fight and it is not uncommon that Dastaar may fall off or the Chakkar which is thrown at the muslim becomes lost in the battle. This is common sense questions. If it was for slandering the Nihangs, then why would they return to confess their guilt and die performing Shabad Kirtan as they did? Also not only Nihangs were arrested but many Hindus, infact the majority were hindus, so it does not make sense that the Kukas had slandered the Nihangs. Similar thing also happened in Raikote where the Singhs gracefully accepted their guilt and became martyres.

Just so you know, the names of those convicted were: Heera Singh, Ahya and Jai Ram. These became known as the culprits and the others whose name will be given below were arrested:

Sant Ram

Ram Krishan

Manna Singh

Jawala Singh

Pannaji

Mula

Nihal Singh

Mayya

Sunder Singh

Bhup Singh

Teka

Shoba

As you can see the majority of the innocent people convicted by Mr. Christie were Hindus and they were all tortured to confess their 'guilt'. The Kukas had no idea about this. They did their job and continued pilgrimming towards Sri Bhaini Sahib where the Guru told them about what had happened and they at once agreed to die in place of the innocents.

Please also note that the Hindus and Nihangs had previously filed claims against the slaughter house with the police and there were little petty fights between Hindus (Perhaps also Nihangs) and the butchers before the incident by the Kukas as well. This may very well be the actual reason why they captured Hindus and Nihangs and not Namdharis.

If I may ask, is this also something published in an anti-Kuka book by either Dr. Ganda Singhji or Jathedar Partap Singhji? If yes then that explains why the 'blue DUMALA' has been fabricated. These two scholars have written many other utter nonsense such as claiming that Satguru Ram Singh Ji were Nihang and wore blue clothes! (I can't even believe someone would be able to think about this when the Guru himself prohibits the SIkhs to wear attires of muslims). Gianni Partap Singh has even blindly written that Guru Ram Singh had cut his hair!! and even that the Guru burnt a Beed of Granth Sahib!! These are mere NONSENSE and BIAS. How could the Satguru who highly valued the Khalsa tradition and is believed by every Namdhari Sikh to be the incarnation of Guru Gobind Singh have ever cut his hair? Not a single Namdhari has even heard about these things yet Jathedar Partap Singhji has written them without thinking twice and even claimed that they are written in a book by a Namdhari Sant!

Also regarding burning the Aad Granth Sahib, this is what ACTUALLY took place: A few premi Sikhs once approached Sri Satguru Ram Singh Ji requesting him to Uchaar Gurbani. The Guru ordered a Beed of Granth Sahib to be brought and wrapped it in a 'saff' blanket. The Guru then set fire to the blanket. If it was you or me who set the fire the Granth Sahib would have burnt without a doubt. But just like how Guru Teghbahader Sahib's Grace protected the Granth Sahib from water when he put it under the river Beas, the Granth Sahib around which was a burning saff blanket was not even touched by the heat with the Guru's Kirpa. After the BLANKET was BURNT to ashes, the Satguru said "Dhan Nanak Dhan Nanak Dhan Nanak". Now I'm sure if Dr. Ganda Singh was reading this he would have tried to use this Kautak and say that "Dhan Nanak" meant that the Granth Sahib was 'Nanak'! But just to let you know after Praising Guru Nanak, Guru Ram Singh said "Eho Bani Da Uchaar Karna Hai": This (Dhan Nanak) is the Bani to be spoken. By doing this Satguruji refused to add or compose Bani to be added to the Granth Sahib but to teach Sikhs to pay attention and live according to what is ALREADY written within the Granth Sahib instead. This may also be the reason why Sri Satguru Gobind Singh Ji did not include his own priceless Banis in the Aad Granth Sahib.

I would also like to shed light on another big propaganda against the Namdhari Panth made these days regarding the 'Patrra Paath'. It was once conducted by Namdhari Sikhs as ordered by Sri Satguru Partap Singh Ji and a volume of Aad Granth Sahib Ji was PROPERLY and RESPECTFULLY DISASSEMBLED. Yet today the mainstream Sikhs are falsely accusing us of 'tearing apart' pages from Sri Aad Granth Sahib. This is NOT TRUE and also a total BIAS that is used to fuel the general public's anger without any reason. If disassembling Granth Sahib is a sin, then why do the mainstream Sikhs put parts of Gurbani on holiday cards and send them around, many of which even end up in garbage I am ashamed to say!? Why do they extract verses from the Granth Sahib and make calendars and Gutkas? This is mere superstition and we have nothing to say much about this other than listen to them in amazement. If the mainstream Sikhs' feelings were 'hurt' because of the Patra Paath then at least they should be thankful that we consider their feelings and do not conduct the prayer anymore with Satguruji's Kirpa.

I have given the answers honestly with the facts that I know are for certain. If there is any other false propaganda against the Namdhari Panth that should be addressed please do not hesitate to ask. Yet it is also requested that you kindly show some respect towards my Satgurus. If you do not call them 'Guru' then at least as the Singh Sabha writers write 'Sant' or 'Babaji' is also acceptible. We do not hurt your feelings and so we expect the same in return.

Fateh Singh

[themanfromtheasylum]

Bikramjit, I am also a Namdhari, but very rarely raise the issue with most ppl on msg boards, because it just causes uneccasary grief, i can understand ur sentiments, its like u have followed something which u strongly believe in and then some ppl come up2 u and say nah but we follow this path, id b pretty pissed of too, NOT !!! Why i personally believe u lose all essence and good naturedness Sikhi preaches and propogates, accept ppl for who they are, even if they do fundamentally go against your principles, muslims, hindus, sikhs, namdharis all alike.

We are all going to be answerable to God at the end of the day, and when it does come to ansa for your actions, will u really ansa to God, sorri God but i was too busy arguing about whether i shud call a tomatoe, a tomatoe or a tomatay. Be happy, chill and do what u have to do, just dont go around knocking others just because they see things differently to you.

[Gupt Singh]

i think namdharis need a beating primarily because they dont let women take amrit.

Moderator's Note: Please Behave. You could have said that nicely

[GABROO KHALISTAN DAH]

whats dhun akal takht sahibs decission on namdharis, narakthalis i'm sure it is?

[sukhsingh]

i think namdharis need a beating primarily because they dont let women take amrit.

THEY DONT!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[drawrof]

I just wanted to thank fateh singh ji for his response.

More than anything, I am willing to draw upon the commonality we have as humans and followers of path of tolerance and love. Sure enough, I view shabad guru as my guru and would reference my experiences with god/vibrations/feelings as being guru as opposed to a living sant/guru/baba etc... Yet, I can say that i respect the namdhaari panth for

a few reasons

a) as compared to the other groups which reside on the periphery of the sikh nation (as we know it).. they still do have respect for guru granth sahib ji, amrit sanchar, gurmat sangeet, etc etc

They have maintained and still keep tradition in tact (as they know It)

My idea is that so long as the sikh path (as most know it) is not degraded or taken stabs at, I feel we can all communicate. what I would actually like is to understand sikh history from the naamdhari perspective.

I think the only thing that ever bothers me, personally, is that when I meet someone who is not from the sikh path (as most know it) starts tellng me that I am wrong etc etc. Whether they be nirankari, radhasoami (not namdhari as of yet) why is it that they feel they have to "prove" they are right.

my contention aside. we are all living and all striving for some point of oneness. ....whether we are aware of it or not.

personally, I am at a point where I want to absorb as much tradition from the past to help take the positives forward. Then one day, we will have a global community of dignity.

lets not fall into the factionalism that victorian era brits set adn have graduated from. lets get into the limelight and shine

waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh

[fatehsingh]

Khalsa Soulja,

PLEASE STOP LYING!!!!

I don't know from where you have heard about this, infact I am amazed as to from where a lot of people get all the wrong ideas about the Namdhari Panth!, but your claim is UNTRUE.

According to our beliefs, Satguru Ram Singh Ji were the PIONEER who gave Khande Da Pahul to women. In Panth Parkash, Suraj Parkash, Sri Gur Sobha's (original editions), there is no mention of any Mahal of Guru Gobind Singh, or any other woman for that matter being given Khande Da Pahul. It was only with the Kirpa of Satguru Ram Singh Ji that women were given Amrit in the first place and lived according to the Khalsa Rahit. Hence your claim is utter NONSENSE. Please do not make such lousy claims.

The following information may be found from Namdhari websites:

On the day of Pooranmashi in June of 1858 at the vllage of Siarhr, for the very first time, Sri Satguru Ram Singh Ji gave Amrit to women and the word 'Kaur' was suffixed to their names regardless of them being of any caste or social level.

Gabroo Khalistan Da,

I posted the following on another thread, but it should be useful here as well:

Because Namdhari Sikhs were anti British at the time when the rest of the Sikh world was supportive of it - including many Nihangs that were the Mahants of several Gurdwaras, Namdhari Sikhs were harrassed in many ways by the mainstream Sikh population. Often times their congregation, which was banned by the British, was told to the British by the mainstream Sikhs causing the Namdhari Sikhs to be thrown into jails, tortured and many times executed. Often times they were forcefully driven away from the Gurdwaras that were under control of Singh Sabha Lahore including the Darbar Sahib and this led to certain restrictions such as they do not allow Namdhari Singhs to perform Diwan or Kirtan in the Golden Temple etc. But Namdhari Sikhs are definitely not 'banned' from Sikhism as you have mentioned. Yet because the Singhs gladly 'accepted' that 'will of God' and did not ask for mercy from the supporters of British - and neither were they given one - their story is not known much outside the Panth.

I do not wish to get too involved in these topics because there already are Namdhari Websites that shed light on them and there is no use of any debate whether Namdharis are Sikhs or not, or the succession of Guruship after Guru Gobind Singh etc. Our history and doings in the past, extracts of which may be found on the websites, speak for themselves as of who we are and what have we done for the Sikh religion and the country of India. If you are interested to learn more about Namdhari Sikhs you may visit all of the following websites:

http://www.namdhari-world.com

http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk

http://namdhari.faithweb.com

http://namdhariveg.sytes.net

For Namdhari Shabad Kirtan audio and Videos, please visit http://namdhari.faithweb.com/radio.htm There is no clip where any 'Mastana' is present I presume but still it is a good place to hear Gurmat Sangeet sung in Shudh Raags. There are probably only the ones sung by 'Harbhajan Singh', who was a new Namdhari then, that does not conform to the Raag Tradition of the Namdhari Sikhs.

Fateh Singh

[GABROO KHALISTAN DAH]

fateh singh

why do u call ur "guru" satguru ram singh ji, while Dhun DHun kalgiya walleh sachaye patsha siri guru gobind singh ji maharaj is just guru gobind singh?

[fatehsingh]

Gabroo Khalistan Da,

We call EVERY Guru, Satguru, Sachay Patshah, Guruji, etc. out of love. There is no TITLE spoken by a human fitting or worthy of the position of the Satguru. Sri Satguru Gobind Singh Sahib wrote in Dasam Granth Sahib:

Shesh Naag Sir Sahes Suhai |

Dwa Sahes Rasna Suhai |

Lagay Japat Ab Naam Apara |

Tumro Tao Na Pavat Para |

It is NOT that we believe one Guru to be higher than the others. Please kindly understand this. A lot of people get the wrong idea and think that we worship one specific Guru over the other. This is also utter NONSENSE and just their way of expressing 'sour grapes', hope you've understood.

Fateh Singh

[GABROO KHALISTAN DAH]

i understand brother.

and i understand ur position, if i came of rood i apologise as u do respect maharajs' beerd.

what are the naamdharis beliefes in khalistan?

[fatehsingh]

Gabroo Khalistan Da,

I knew you'd ask about Khalistan!

Anyway, as for 'respect for Guru Granth Sahibs' (Both Sri Aad and Sri Dasam), let me also shed some light on one of the BIGGEST misconceptions. That is the claim made by many ILLITERATE mainstraem Sikhs who think they know so much about every religion in the world, that Namdhari Singhs don't pay any special attention to them!! This is TOTAL BIAS NONSENSE AND THE MOST RIDICULOUS IDEA someone would ever try to lie.

According to our belief, the Granth Sahibs were bowed to by every Satguru including our present Satguru. They RESPECT it and give it a place HIGHER than themselves and this is also one of the reasons why we do not believe that Sri Satguru Gobind Singh ji would have 'lowered' the already HIGH position of the Sri Aad Granth Sahib and given it his Gurgaddi instead when he already bowed down to it. Again this is our belief, I do not wish to go this way much but since Drawrof also said he wanted to learn more about the Namdhari history so this is what we believe in.

Also let me assure those who may get paranoid of not knowing what happens to the Beeds of Sri Granth Sahibs in the Namdhari Diwan. Let me say simply that we give them MORE respect than the mainstream Sikhs. YES I MEAN IT. The following are a few aspects of it (Applied to both Sri Granth Sahibs):

Namdhari Singhs DO NOT do parkash of any Sri Granth Sahibs and LEAVE THEM OPEN without the intention of reading or taking any care whether an insect or dirt will land on them or not like how many mainstream Sikhs do the parkash and leave for their jobs!!! This is viewed as disrespect towards the Sri Granth Sahibs according to the Namdhari Maryada.

Namdhari Singhs DO NOT touch the Sri Granth Sahibs without taking bath from head to toe. We consider our Satguru's Banis to be 'Pavittar'.

Namdhari Singhs DO NOT translate the Sri Granth Sahibs into any other language and twist their meanings in the process of doing so like how many mainstream Sikhs have done. A human being cannot translate Guru's Bani. Only the Guru knows the meaning of every word written in the Granth Sahibs is what Namdhari Singhs believe.

Namdhari Singhs DO NOT do 'Arth' of the Sri Granth Sahibs and twist it into all 500 different meanings to satisfy some nonsense cause such as for the promotion of meat-eating etc. like how many mainstream Sikhs have done and are doing.

Namdhari Singhs DO NOT reject parts of the Sri Granth Sahibs such as the Bhagta Di Banis, Raagmala, or parts of the Dasam Granth Sahib like how many mainstream Sikhs who claim to worship the Sri Granth Sahibs as 'Guru' do.

These are only a few points I could think from the top of my head. If you need more information you may find it from the Namdhari websites I posted in my previous message.

As for the topic of Khalistan, I will post our position on the matter tomorrow as I am out of time today just after discussing the role of Sri Granth Sahibs. Kindly wait.

Fateh Singh

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

First about Nihungs. Nihungs had an enemy of the state status during the British rule. They were shot on site. So to say that the Nihungs were "friendly" with the British is not correct.

Naamdharis are quite against Khalistan, as their website proudly waves the Indian flag and proclaims to be in service of India.

Otherwise, debating with Naamdharis is quite pointless. It comes down to "My history is right and yours is wrong" and becomes a circular argurment. The decision will be made when the Khalsa comes to power as it will clearly show who the Guru's choice is.

[jsb]

You know what i find strangely ironic??

i find it ironic that it's the groups that have been "expelled" from sikhi that are trying hardest to promote unity, and the rest of the panth who is rejecting them and shunning them.

[fatehsingh]

Fateh Bulai Parvaan Karni

Before answering to GKD's (Gabroo Khalistan Da) question about Khalistan, Mr. N30 Singh has brought to light yet another product of the insecurities among some mainstream Sikhs who view every other religion to be their enemy of some kind. I have nothing to say about their foolish claim of Namdhari Panth being 'created' by Government of India or whatever other political institution. This is just too 'low-class' that I won't even dignify it. Those people who do such lousy and cheap propagandas should be ashamed of themselves.

Now back to the topic of Khalistan.

Here's one memorable Kabit written by one great Namdhari Sant, Sant Dhian Singh ji in his book called 'Satguru Bilas Patshahi Baarvi' that always comes to mind when someone talks about their vision of Khalistan:

Vidvaan Ko Desh Bidesh. Moorakhman Ko Desh Kalesh. : For a learnt person, there is no difference as to who the land he lives on belongs to. For a fool, even his own country is no different than hell.

While the above mentioned Kabit was written almost a hundred years ago, it definitely was as true then as it is now. The Namdhari Singhs have been FOR Khalistan since the initiation of the Namdhari Panth in 1857. However our view of Khalistan is TOTALLY DIFFERENT from what is envisioned by the mainstream Sikhs. We want a Khalistan that is FULL OF KHALSAS. Hence to fill Khalistan, we first need to have MORE Khalsas. We DO NOT want a Khalistan that will be governed by some corrupt institution that pays no attention to its people or their spirituality. We DO NOT want a Khalistan that will always be in fear of being attacked by its neighbors. We DO NOT want a Khalistan that will last only as long as we keep the guns firing and swords shining. We DO NOT want a Khalistan that is only limited to the size of the present Punjab.

Violence and Militancy has NEVER seen and will NEVER see an everlasting reign. We WANT a Khalistan in which there is no distinction between Nirmalas and Nihangs. Where there is no distinction between Namdhari or Singh Sabhia. Where there is no distinction between Hindu or Muslim. A Khalistan that is Khalis and has no geographical boundaries. A Khalistan that is UNITED and not divided into Takhats or Jathas or churches. A Khalistan that will by itself define the highest standard of human civilization that ever existed on this planet.

But the funny part is that when such a Khalistan will be achieved, no one will call it Khalistan. They will all call it 'Sach Khand'.

Fateh Singh

[Guest]

Since we on this topic veer fateh singh ji,

just out of curiousity what namdhari singhs think of sant jarnail khalsa bhindranwale?

I mean he never was after on nirankaris and namdharis. But he was after fake nirankaris.

Please tell me what do u guys think of him??

Thanks in advance.

[fatehsingh]

N30 Singh

For me, and most likely also for the majority of the Namdhari Singhs, 'Sant' Bhindrawale was far away from what a Namdhari Singh would consider to be a religious Sikh, let alone Sant.

I do not want to say anything much because I know the majority of the members on this board - especially the children, unfortunately - are difinitely big fans of his, but just let me tell you a little story.

Back at the time when the militancy of Bhindrawale was in 'power', he once entered into the area of Sri Jiwan Nagar, a peaceful town mostly occupied by the Namdhari Singhs and other Sikhs who were rescued by Sri Satguru Partap Singh Ji after the partition of India. There Bhindrawale made his entrance known by traveling in a large white van and with him were his 'gunmen', that some mainstream Sikhs call 'Gursikhs', who came out with their guns fully loaded and stood by the side of Bhindrawale while he did 'NINDYA' of our Satgurus.

What would YOUR idea of such a person be? A Sant? I'm really not sure but according to the doctrines of our Satgurus and from what you will find again and again written in the Sri Granth Sahibs; a person who is a 'Sant' or a 'Religious Person', no matter to which religion he may belong to, will NEVER do NINDYA of any other person belonging to any other religion, let alone that of the Satgurus or Sants.

It is funny to think that many mainstream Sikh writers write Baba Banda Bahadur to be a 'manmukh' when other people who caused so much death and destruction to be Saints.

Fateh Singh

[Guest]

Is that the only reason that you guys hate sant jarnail singh bhindranwale??? If thats the only reason then i think its reasonable from your side.

Are they any hidden hatred or agendas against him??

can you tell us the contributions of namdhari sikhs in the panth from the timeline 1974-1990's...when sggs were burned, innocent sikhs were gettin killed by oppressors (bhramanic indian govt)???

Have you guys suffered injustice from indian govt too??

What do you guys think of Miri/Piri concept?? In other words, saint and soldier concept started by guru hargobind maharaj ji??

sowwie before this thread.. we didnt knew anything about namdharis and their spirtual movement..just like to know more..

I hope you dont mind. 8)

thanks in advance.

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

You've caught my ear, Fateh Singh Ji. What "nindya" did Sant Sahib do? Remember, nindya is false lies against a person or group. Care to list them?

[fatehsingh]

N30 Singh wrote:

Is that the only reason that you guys hate sant jarnail singh bhindranwale??? If thats the only reason then i think its reasonable from your side.

That's one MAJOR reason. Also we did not appreciate his political strategies, which in the end brought nothing but destruction.

>>Are they any hidden hatred or agendas against him??

We do not have time or reason to conspire against such persons. We believe Sikhism to be a spiritual religion. Politics - bad politics, to be politically correct - have ruined the image of Sikhs. Again this is our belief. Not that we force anyone to believe the same.

>>can you tell us the contributions of namdhari sikhs in the panth from the timeline 1974-1990's...when sggs were burned, innocent sikhs were gettin killed by oppressors (bhramanic indian govt)???

This is a 20 pages long question. But first also kindly see a bit of what we did BEFORE the years you requested to know about:

( From a Namdhari Website: http://namdhariveg.sytes.net )

When Sri Satguru Partap Singh Ji ascended the Gurgaddi (Throne of the Guru), the English were still in control of the Land of Bharat (India). In the mean time, Indian National Congress had been organized and the Namdhari Sikhs, under the divine guidance of the Great Satguru Partap Singh, joined hands with the Congress. They organized numerous conferences at various places in Punjab to arouse the people's interest against the British tyranny. In 1925, the congress started a special campaign from Bradella Hall in Lahore. The Namdhari Sikhs participated in that movement whole-heartedly as well. They stood at the forefront and bravely faced arrests. In Dec.1929 the Annual Session of congress was organized in Lahore. Namdhari Sikhs had not only taken part in that session but also provided free food to every participant.

The Daily Tribune of Lahore published an article on 27th December,1929: "Pundit Jawahar Lal Nehru was riding a horse. It was a beautiful white charger. Behind him were the G.O.C and other officers of the volunteers corps. The most striking feature was the Sikh cavalry dressed in white spotless khaddar and wearing stylish turbans. The Namdharis with their flowing beards presenting a thrilling sight."

When Netaji, Subash Chandra Bose, organized the AZAD HIND FAUJ with its centre in Bangkok (Thailand), Namdhari Sikhs of Thailand helped him in each and every way possible.

Subash Chandra Bose had rightly said that; "The banner for freedom given to Indians by Satguru Ram Singh and the sacrifices done by Namdhari Sikhs will be a matter of great pride for the Indians. The Namdhari Sikhs, experienced for three quarters of century for their peaceful non-co-operation movement, are expected to carry forward the banner of freedom in the forefront and will encourage sacrifices. Guru Ram Singh is the first leader of the peaceful non-co-operation movement in India."

In 1945, the Vavel Conference was held in Shimla. All the patriots and political parties participated in the conference. Sri Satguru Partap Singh Ji also reached Shimla with the Namdhari Sikhs. At that time, Pt. Nehru asked Sri Satguruji, "What do you want? What are your dreams?" Satguru Partap Singh Ji, while expressing the patriotic view of the Namdhari Dharma, replied, "My want, wish and demand is only India's freedom". On account of these pioneering efforts & sacrifices of Namdhari Sikhs and all other patriotic forces, India attained independence on 15th August,1947.

Pt. Nehru had later written in the 'Satjug' (A Namdhari Newspaper): "No Indian can deny the importance of efforts put in by Satguru Ram Singh and His followers Namdhari Sikhs, seventy five years ago in achieving freedom of the country. Congress merely followed the path shown by them and attained Independence."

Reading this many would ask if we were so politically friendly with the Congress, did we suport the massacre of 1984? The answer to this is: NO WAY. The only reason why we were even friendly with the Congress in the first place was becasue their non-violence strategy was copied from that started by Namdhari Sikhs, so it made simple logical sense for us to support them.

Other than the 'political freedom' of India, the Namdhari Panth never gained anything else out of the relationship with Congress. This must be once and for all understood as there are also unfortunately those who try to use our good relationship with the Congress party to defame our contributions and sacrifices.

Many will also ask 'What were the Namdhari Sikhs doing in 1984?'

The answer to this question is that there was nothing that could be done that would reflect our true mission and beliefs. 1984 was a HUGE political strategic failure. It could have been easily prevented yet no attention was given to what should have been done in the right time. We supported neither the organization of the SGPC/Bhindrawale that never cared about our feelings and did all sorts of cheap propaganda against our religion and are considered 'fundamentalists' by any civilized standards. We also did not support the blind and foolish Hindu terrorists who were brain-washed by the British, that successfully divided and ruled them, and viewed Sikhs, who were their saviours, as enemies!! Sadly enough many Namdhari Singhs were also put to sword by the fanatic Hindus. So we were definitely not enjoying the show as some would wrongly fantasize.

Hence there was NOTHING RELIGIOUSLY AND POLITICALLY CORRECT that could be done in 1984. Nevertheless we undoubtedly supported those whose family or friends were lost and provided them with shelter and food, but as for picking up arms to fight against either of the 'fundamentalists', there really was no easy decision to be made. We were between a rock and a hard place.

>>Have you guys suffered injustice from indian govt too??

The one major reason why India is politically free today is because the path to freedom through non-violence pioneered by Sri Satguru Ram Singh Ji was followed. Yet today the 'father of India' is Mahatma Gandhi and the majority of Indians and even Sikhs do not even have a correct idea of what Namdhari Panth is and who the namdhari Sikhs are. Need I say more?? There was a very good book called 'Namdhari Atay Congress' written by Maharaj Bir Singhji that explains about all the sacrifices we did for the cause of freedom of India by supporting the congress and what they have given us back in return.

>>What do you guys think of Miri/Piri concept?? In other words, saint and soldier concept started by guru hargobind maharaj ji??

Miri and Piri were always there since the time of Guru Nanak Dev Ji. He traveled to all corners with not only spiritual but also political messages. He did not only uplift people's spiritual life but also their political actions which is directly a result of good Moral. So according to our beliefs we strongly believe in the tradition of Miri and Piri. But just like how in different ages there are different rules. For example it was Guru Hargobind Sahib who started the Miri Piri officially by putting the evil muslims to sword but when Guruship was passed on to Guru Harrai Sahib the Guru did not go to any war and paid more attention to meditation and Gurbani etc. instead which ultimately went on until Sri Satguru Gobind Singh Ji's time came. Similarly Sri Satguru Ram Singh Ji, who every Namdhari Singh reveres as the incarnation of Guru Gobind Singh, at the time when the Khalsa's Miri was corrupted because of corrupt Piri, decided that more attention should be given to Piri which would ultimately bring out a better Miri in the Khalsas. Hence the Namdhari Panth was founded.

To learn more about the Namdhari Singh's Dharma, the following website is strongly recommended: http://namdhariveg.sytes.net

The site also highlights the effort put forth by the Namdhari Darbar in trying to reunite all the major and minor sects within the Sikh World.

Fateh Singh

[fatehsingh]

Sat Sri Akal:

You've caught my ear, Fateh Singh Ji. What "nindya" did Sant Sahib do? Remember, nindya is false lies against a person or group. Care to list them?

Sorry but I don't make a list of insignificant things. People know what nindya is when they hear one. I do not think we need your help to know what he said was nindya or not. You are entitled to believe in what you do and revere any man as Sant or Sadh as you may wish. I only expressed my views about him that are shaped because of an explained sensible reason.

As you have been so kind as to advise others in another post of yours that getting into a discussion with a Namdhari is pointless, it is hoped that you'd remain true to your kind words.

Fateh Singh

[GABROO KHALISTAN DAH]

----deleted---

Points is to have debate with evidences and historical events not by personal views.

Read the rules for this section no personal hate is allowed

[tSingh]

Gurfateh

Fateh Singh - just one small point! You said that Namdhari Singh's do not translate Gurbani into other languages, but this is plainly not true, as I have a great english translation of Oogardanthi, Chandi Di Var, Shaster Naam Mala, etc produced by a Namdhari.

Also, I was quite amazed that you state that Namdharis essentialy want a united panth without different 'churches' or jathas, and no difference between Nihangs and Nirmalae. Yet you have repeatedly referred to 'mainstream' Sikhs and 'Namdharis'. Would you want every Sikh to ideally believe in Namdhari maryada, or 'mainstream' maryada?

When you state there should be no difference between Nihangs and Nirmalae, as far as the sampraday are concerned, they were instituted (tupee of) by Guru Gobind Singh ji himself. I personally feel there is unity in diversity, not unity in orthodoxy vs. heterodoxy.

[fatehsingh]

>>Fateh Singh - just one small point! You said that Namdhari Singh's do not translate Gurbani into other languages, but this is plainly not true, as I have a great english translation of Oogardanthi, Chandi Di Var, Shaster Naam Mala, etc produced by a Namdhari.

I thought I wrote very clearly that: Namdhari Singhs DO NOT translate the Sri Granth Sahibs into any other language and twist their meanings in the process of doing so

Kindly read that carefully. Also the fact that the writer has translated only parts (mostly the 'difficult to understand' Banis) shows his real intention of getting the youth to first 'get interested' in Gurbani which many younger Sikhs today find to be extremely difficult to understand. Once you get their attention, they will make an effort themselves to read the Banis and try to explore its meanings. But in no way does any Namdhari Singh claims his translation to be an absolute gospel or be truer than others etc., this much you can be a hundred percent sure.

>>Also, I was quite amazed that you state that Namdharis essentialy want a united panth without different 'churches' or jathas, and no difference between Nihangs and Nirmalae. Yet you have repeatedly referred to 'mainstream' Sikhs and 'Namdharis'. Would you want every Sikh to ideally believe in Namdhari maryada, or 'mainstream' maryada?

First of all, if I did not use the word 'mainstream Sikhs' etc, how will you know what and who I am talking about? Wouldn't that be even more confusing? Anyway, this is our belief: We believe that our Maryada is the original Maryada of Guru Gobind Singh that was lost from Punjab when the English invaded. I do not want to spend too much time writing about the entire Sakhi but please kindly refer to http://namdhari.faithweb.com/raisingh.htm which describes the situation of 'Sikhs' at the time and how Sri Satguru Ram Singh Ji had to send a trusted Sikh, Bhai Rai Singh ji, to Hazoor Sahib - Sri Abchal Nagar - in order to retrieve Guru Gobind Singh Ji's maryada that was no where else to be found in the entire Punjab.

Although the Maryadas of giving Amrit to women, the Anand Karaj, and Akhand Path etc. were pioneered (or made popular, in the case of Akhand path - that is if it was infact performed by the Buddha Dal first as some claim) by Sri Satguru Ram Singh Ji, the rest of the maryada that Namdhari Sikhs today follow is what the Maryada of Sri Hazoor Sahib was BACK THEN. Kindly read the page I mentioned and there should be no more doubts left.

Hence idealy ofcourse we HOPE our Maryada, which we sincerely believe to be the original one of Guru Gobind Singh, would be followed, but then again that's in God's hands and we do not force anyone to believe the same. But atleast we should reach to the point where there's no 'hate', 'insults' or 'baseless/demeaning propaganda' against other religions.

>>When you state there should be no difference between Nihangs and Nirmalae, as far as the sampraday are concerned, they were instituted (tupee of) by Guru Gobind Singh ji himself. I personally feel there is unity in diversity, not unity in orthodoxy vs. heterodoxy.

What I meant was, and I apologize if I didn't make it clear enough, that there should be no 'discrimination' between the many sects or religions. There should not be finger pointings and name callings and all other low-class propagandas. As you may have read from the Namdhari Websites, the Namdhari Darbar had made several attempts to unite all sects and the major religions of India and in all of them, the message of the Namdhari Darbar was very straight forward. The following may be quoted from the Namdhari Websites:

the conference implored all the leaders, saints, lecturers, journalists, minstrels, and all other responsible persons to sermonize the essence of their belief without violating and defaming the principles of any other sect.

And that is what we HOPE to achieve. Praise YOUR Guru with all means possible as long as it does not mean insulting others' Gurus.

Fateh Singh

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

Making an accusation of nindya against Sant Jarnail Singh and then calling it "insignificant"? Nice try.

If it was so insignificant, why did you even bring it up? Obviously, it was significant to at least one Namdhari - you. So please back up this accusation with some sort of evidence.