Sikh Fanaticism in the UK

[fatehsingh]

This topic has been on my mind and I'm sure that of many others here as well for quite a bit.

The past few years has seen the development of some websites such as sikhsangat.com and panthic.org to name a few.

Even though I do not share the same views as them, I admire the effort these children have put into what looks even more professional than this website.. certainly shows what dedication can achieve.. even if just superficially..

but that leads to the problem I'm trying to discuss here.. 'superficial' is all it seems to me in all honesty..

The very basic thought of a Sikh 'Gang' is an oxymoron. The Granth Sahib has nothing but demeaning words for 'Thuggi', 'Yaari' and other similar activities yet these children are profoundly lost and unaware of this very basic commandment... the word 'Sadh Sangat' or 'Sat Sangat' or 'Sikh Sangat' for that matter seems to be a term misused by them..

From discussion with several members of Gurdwara committees from the mainstream Sikh fold, an overwhelming amount of people are concerned about how these children r treading on the wrong path but are calling it 'Sikhism'..

So my point with this topic is that something needs to be done and the effort has to come from the adults.. the people I talked to do not know who the creators of these websites are but I'm sure someone here would know.. what is needed here is education because they need to understand they r sending a very wrong and hateful message to young Sikh teenagers and when these teenagers act out their hatred upon others and police gets involved.. it destroys their spotless record and they r inturn looked upon by society as terrorists and criminals..

I look forward to some positive and constructive responses..

Fateh Singh

[Guest]

Your topic tittle "terrorism" seems out of order, may be sikh "fanatics suits better especially when one reads the contents of your topic.

[fatehsingh]

Whether you call the act of a gang of teenagers with turbans hurling abuses at a family, with little children, of Sikhs belonging to a different sect on a family trip going out and about on the streets on a Sunday as fanatics or terrorists I think u will agree is a non-issue... If the topic bothers you that much please change it... although we should figure out how to change someting far more important here..

[guv]

very good topic fatehsingh.

one of the greatest things about the internet is the ease with which u can find ppl with a similar mindset as urself... this is also it's greatest danger.

most of the youngsters u mention are just normal ppl who have developed a love for sikhi & then are peer-pressured, coaxed or sometimes threatened into following the fanatical views of some of their peers. i've seen it time & time again. they are encouraged to cast out logic & reason, & very often their new outlook on life brings them into conflict with their families... alienating them, driving them further into the fanatic fold. there's a huge parallel with cult mindsets & methods of conversion.

then there are the instigators... those who present the outward roop of sikhs, but preach only hatred. they are adored by their chele... usually because of their charisma & (very limited) knowledge of bani.

gotta go eat roti... will post more when i come back.

[guv]

cont...

there's another element in the equation as well... that is the unwillingness of certain groups & organisations to condemn the actions / mindsets of these youths. there are 4 main reasons i can think of for this...

1. they actively encourage the youth to become mindless fanatics for their own purposes

2. they do not actively encourage the youth, but do not condemn them because they either use them to do their dirty work... or because they see the things they do as beneficial to their group. (speaking out against nihangs, going on protests, spreading khalistani literature etc)

3. they see them as the lesser of 2 evils.

4. they fear being targeted.

so u need a three-pronged solution to the problems highlighted... to deal with those youths caught up in these groups, the ones who actively propogate the beliefs, & the organisations / groups which fail to speak out against them.

ok i realise i haven't actually given a single suggestion on what can be done!... i'll think about it...

[Mystical]

I dont like them they give us a bad bad name because of theses things which are happening theses days.

[fatehsingh]

Thank you Guv for the info u provided. I have no doubt it is true. At the same time, some 'good' news and bad news, there are a number of mainstream Gurdwaras that have shown support and even offered to initiate filing a collective lawsuit against these gangs and their members. However to me personally I think it would be a sad day when we have to put these children behind bars and put a permanent mark on their lives for some dumb action they commit under peer pressure... but then again there's also the reality which was brougt up by another committee member of a Gurdwara that will not be named here, that some of these kids 'may', later in life, continue to live in their own black/white worlds and stick to their hatefilled beliefs... these people will inturn be looked up to as examples by their siblings and other children as inspiration and the 'grudge' is passed down to them from one hatefilled generation to the next... so the legal option sounded very logical in this sense..

I do not doubt there r instigators who are adults of age, because kids cannot propagate and harbour so much hatred themselves.. However the fact remains that overwhelmingly people have a general sense of moral responsibility and righteousness.. I will be very surprised to learn that these children's parents, who r the adults I mentioned in the original post, know what kind of hatred and anger their children have learned primarily just from being on the internet..

Just so the information is out there, the MIS is aware of these websites. I am not going to elaborate what all information they have received but many good and sensible fellow Sikhs have been instrumental in this respect..

Lastly I think we should all pray to our Gurus that these children do actually realize the tath of Sikhi soon before its too late.. i.e. Sikh vichon Khusbo Avai... from a Sikh should permeate fragrance of happiness.. ofcourse this is a Sikh forum... so only verses from Granth Sahib r cool: Bhae Kahu Ko Det Nahi Na Bhae Manat Aan - Salok Mahalla Nauva

Fateh S.

[chatanga]

How sad it is when these children are showing the manmat in a lot of our gurdwaras. How sad it is when these children are highlighting the beadbi going on in gurdwaras! While the elders in our community are spirituallt dead or thier soul is dead. However to me personally it will be a sad day when these people stand up in God's true court and are put behind bars. But the again theres also the reality that these mahants in charge of gurdwaras will continue to live in thier black/white world and stick to thier narrowminded anti Gurmat views. these people will pass on thier grudges to their offspring.

I have no doubt that there are one or two manmukh mahants who lead and the rest of the dumbo's just follow them without thinking of what they are doing. I wont be surprised to learn what these mahant's Guru thinks of thier stupidity and manmat practices in gurdwaras. Just so the information is out there, God and Guru are aware of these mahants and manmukhs.

Lastly we should all pray to God and ask the Gurus for support that these mahants actually realise the folly of what they are doing and submit to the Guru before its too late. Bhae Kahu Ko Det Nahi Na Bhae Manat Aan - Salok Mahala Nauva

chatanga

[Guest]

Chatanga gotta very significant question, i hope you can answer this,

what manmat practices are exactly happening in UK gurdwara?

can you please list them? and more importantly list the sources?

This forum only supports allegations with sources not just allegations.

[chatanga]

Yes sir i can list them and i myself is the source as it has happened to me personally.

1- the observance of caste - I was asked to leave Ramgarhia board gurdwara in stoke on trent as i could not prove i was ramgarhia. This still is observed in gurdwaras, and i have been told of places where chamars were not allowed in the rasoi.

2- the maryada of akhand path is not followed by some gurdwaras. if you want the names i can give.

3- the maryada of langar is blatantly disregarded ie tables and chairs, and also i have been to a gurdwara where they sit with uncovered head in langar hall.

4- the granthis who use alcohol I have seen for myself.

5 gurdwaras that use alcohol sales parties etc to boost income. Amritdharis sikhs were adamant that this was fine.

6 observance of non sikh festivals such as rakhri bandhan, and lohri in gurdwaras.

These are the things i have seen , and these are just off the top of my head. There may be some more.

chatanga

[Dancing Warrior]

Chatanga,

1. Your points, do they warrant the racist, thug mentality behaviour of the ak47 and r4g thugs’ brigade.

2. A granny locking herself in at Baba Whadbagh as these 20 odd thugs tried to get in hardly shows the honour and valour of the Khalsa does it?

3. If these so called sevadars of the panth are so concerned surly it makes more sense to help the named and shamed institutes in the correct formalities then to alienate them, does it not?

4. Why could they not send a couple of helpers a few times a week to get things right? they being the all knowing

5. In my opinion beadbi is claims like “we saved the Guru†how disrespectful is that?

Denying ones true nature is like digging a hole. The longer one lies to themselves the deeper the hole gets, one day when its too late one realises he's in too deep and cant get out.

[chatanga]

Dancing warrior , I dont pretend to have the solution . But what i have expericned i have told u. Sometimes there is too much anger when things ike this happen and people dont think clearly. What my post was about is the demonisation of the r4g group and suchlike. I have worked with the committe of my local gurdawar for 4 years. They do things i dont like but even if i tell them this is what gurnbani says, they wont listen. Naming and shaming has no effect. I cant send any helpers there. If i try thumping one of them old men it duznt show my valour. what is the recourse?

Dont be so quick to judge others on thier stand for gurmat

chatanga

[Dancing Warrior]

Chatanga,

You should do stand up your talent is wasted here.

You accuse me of judging people yet it is you who has been judging the actions of your local Gurukar for the last four years trying to change them according to your philosophy. You claim the barbarous behaviour of these individuals is down to “too much anger when things ike this happen and people dont think clearly†to point the finger and accuse people of disrespecting The Guru yet you can’t contain your own hate, prejudices and phobias!? Come now Chatanga surly this is inexcusable?

“Dont be so quick to judge others on thier stand for gurmat†Surly is this not the kettle calling the pot black?

You don’t have the solution? Maybe part of the solution is to clean under your own manja before criticising someone else is.

[Guest]

Yes sir i can list them and i myself is the source as it has happened to me personally.

1- the observance of caste - I was asked to leave Ramgarhia board gurdwara in stoke on trent as i could not prove i was ramgarhia. This still is observed in gurdwaras, and i have been told of places where chamars were not allowed in the rasoi.

2- the maryada of akhand path is not followed by some gurdwaras. if you want the names i can give.

3- the maryada of langar is blatantly disregarded ie tables and chairs, and also i have been to a gurdwara where they sit with uncovered head in langar hall.

4- the granthis who use alcohol I have seen for myself.

5 gurdwaras that use alcohol sales parties etc to boost income. Amritdharis sikhs were adamant that this was fine.

6 observance of non sikh festivals such as rakhri bandhan, and lohri in gurdwaras.

These are the things i have seen , and these are just off the top of my head. There may be some more.

chatanga

Thanks for listing the things chatanga,

I would suggest these youths to involve sri akaal takth sahib or any jathedars from any takth sahib to resolves these activities instead giving out death threats, going through violence. Do vichar, held gurmatta, involve the takths jathedars, solve it with gurmat.. using force, threats, intimiditation, violence are also manmat things..two manmat things doesnt solve anything.

Also you mention 6 observence of non sikh festivals, i m curious to know what are other four? since you mentioned rakhri and lori which is for sure manmat activities.

[chatanga]

Dancing woarrior you should shut up, your hattred is transparent here.

the observance of non sikh pratcies was point no 6 , not meaning i had 6 things to moan/complain about.

Dancing warrior i never judged any other Sikh personally. However I will and can and evryone else should judge those people who perform the management of the gurdawars and shrines. This is not about me wanting my own way, but about the tradition started by our Gurus , which people have began to distort for thir selfishness or weakness.

What hate phobias and predujices do you think i have from reading my previous post? i could say the same for you if i thought you didnt agree with me on something. It seem that you are the one with hate and phobia just cos I am prepared to make a stand on certain practices in the gurdwaras. You are probably one of those who think nankana sahib should still be in the hands of the mahants who killed raped and killed the pilgrims.

N30 you state sum very good proposals, but I know that the r4g have always used dialgue and reasoning before turning up on any1s doorstep. Personally I think they should keep using debate as a way forward, but like I said previously they should not be demonised.

chatanga

[fatehsingh]

I think N30 Singh's proposal makes perfect sense... the fact is no one takes these children seriously and they r now already demonised in the good part of Sangat.. so when their image is bad to start with, who will listen to their dialogues? if the takhats in India have no problem with the issues these children r crying over.. y should anyone?

They need to realize that in no community is the action of tenagers acting like celebrities and cursing people double or triple their age acceptable..

[chatanga]

fyi the hukamanama from akal bunga in 1998 is what they are acting on. acting vedanti issued a sandesh to all sikhs last year to stop these activities.

so these people have already the support of Akal Bunga

chatanga

[fatehsingh]

That is great. Now all they need is someone respected in the Sangat to negotiate on their behalf and if they r not doing anything wrong, I'm sure they will be supported

Remember to gain respect u must give respect.

[Niranjana]

Catanga,

You raise some interesting point:

<<1>>

Ramgarhia Gurdwaras are not restricted to only Ramgharias with exception of those who desire to be on the Board/Committee - which is perfectly fine, given it is afterall a Ramgarhia Gurdwara, there is no restriction on non-Ramgarhias attending services or partaking in the services. In fact, it is common to see many non-Ramgarhias in services held within a Ramgarhia Gurdwara. This is a age old non-issue that is started by those who have an underlying vendetta against Ramgarhias in general.

2- the maryada of akhand path is not followed by some gurdwaras. if you want the names i can give.

<<3>>

Tables and Chairs do not necessarily remove the Sikh principle of "Pangat" (i.e. all eating on a communal basis at the same level). This is a non-issue that has been raised - however I guess the youth are probably happier having the fights that many witnessed on international TV in Canada following the issuance of this now famous hukamnama with the 'tyar bar tyar' Chardi Kala Singhs ripping each others turbans off and drawing kirpans (since clearly 'all other means had failed'!!!)...we can debate to the nth degree, the actions of those who are claiming to be upholding 'Puratan' and 'pristine' values of Sikhi through their external display of zeal, speak much louder and clearer...

<<6>>

Please provide clear and proper reason which qualifies any of the above as non-sikh in any way that is different to say have a New Year's divan at the Gurdwara?

[Dancing Warrior]

Dancing woarrior you should shut up, your hattred is transparent here.

the observance of non sikh pratcies was point no 6 , not meaning i had 6 things to moan/complain about.

Dancing warrior i never judged any other Sikh personally. However I will and can and evryone else should judge those people who perform the management of the gurdawars and shrines. This is not about me wanting my own way, but about the tradition started by our Gurus , which people have began to distort for thir selfishness or weakness.

What hate phobias and predujices do you think i have from reading my previous post? i could say the same for you if i thought you didnt agree with me on something. It seem that you are the one with hate and phobia just cos I am prepared to make a stand on certain practices in the gurdwaras. You are probably one of those who think nankana sahib should still be in the hands of the mahants who killed raped and killed the pilgrims.

N30 you state sum very good proposals, but I know that the r4g have always used dialgue and reasoning before turning up on any1s doorstep. Personally I think they should keep using debate as a way forward, but like I said previously they should not be demonised.

chatanga

“Dancing woarrior you should shut up, your hattred is transparent here.â€

It is? Funny, I seemed to have missed something. Sorry I have too much ego for me to shut up, Hey I admit it! I’m not really in to that “I’m Daas†all crouching and Hubble nonsense.

“You are probably one of those who think nankana sahib should still be in the hands of the mahants who killed raped and killed the pilgrims.â€

:shock: I missed something again! Err…ok, and I also support the Nazis burning books if it helps you feel any better about me.

Ok Chatanga that’s my synopsis out of the way, now perhaps you want to look at yourself. :wink:

[tSingh]

There is a slight problem though with Vedanti's directive. If its meant to be implemented in the way he's saying it, why on earth does he, or the head Gyani of darbar sahib attend and give out saropas at functions held at Brahm Buta Udasin Akhara (on his own doorstep) where in Sri Guru Granth Sahib is flanked by two murtis? Or sangalwara akhara which if Vedanti tripped over outside darbar sahib he'd be inside it, which has both a mandir and murtis and prakash of Sri Guru Granth Sahib. THEN to top it all off, why did he then issue another hukamnama saying Udasis are part of the panth and should be respected? How does that work? The reality is I *personally* don't think he'd dare overstep the mark, knowing that the reality of Sikhi is not in SGPC Gurdwaras, but in the various well established deras and taksals around who exact most influence on the panth. The fact that nearly all of the Sikh traditional intelligensia have respect for or are attached to someone from the samprdayas makes a mockery of this, when Baba Sunder Singh Bhindranwale studied from two Udasin babas, and all the diverse practices of those Sants whose portraits hang in Darbar Sahib museum, how can it be that the Sikh Rehit Maryada should be imposed on everyone? In punjab at least, it isn't and it won't be. I mean honestly, tilaks, aarti with dhoop and deep of smaadhs, sukha, celibacy, shanks, shastar puja, etc take place in some of the other takhats, so why the double standards amongst the hot heads?!

As for the youth, well if there are no models of mature saintly behaviour what do you expect? Even Sardar Kapoor Singh recognised this that prachar was only ever effective under the Nirmalay and Udasis, because they emobodied what they were teaching. And then you have prachar for the youth being a matter of 'get really angry about 84 and take amrit'. To my mind thats not really going to be very effective in the long run! Sikhi in the UK (to my mind at least) is a pretty depressing thing, with some quiet old people with a lot of sharda getting on with it, and a lot of other people with big egos shouting through microphones. Where's the compassionate embodiment of values, where's the sophisticated prachar, wheres that flame of inspiration in mystical teachings of compassion and brahmgyan? Well its maybe just there, but among the hated 'questionnable' minority sangats from my experience.

I also personally feel that alike the issue with Piar Singh and Pashaura Singh, until the jathedar has tip-top perfect english that can tease out academic nuances (thus of a greater ability than those embarrassing responses to oberoi by mainstream Punjabi scholars), how can he possibly make decisions on overseas events conveyed to him by others?

[Guest]

interesting post tsingh, great to hear from you regarding this topic.

[chatanga]

The tradition of eating langar has always been sitting on the floor. If you think that it is ok to have chairs and tables becuz even then we are sitting at the same level, then this can also be aplied to the diwan as well. why not have chairs in the diwan. Evryone will still be at the same level. The tradition of sangat and pangat started by Guru Nanak Dev Ji has always been sitting on the floor. Who am I to change this traditon?

[chatanga]

""They need to realize that in no community is the action of tenagers acting like celebrities and cursing people double or triple their age acceptable.. ""

Remember that wisdom duz not come with age. You will fiind in humnanity that Akal has made some wiser at 15 than some at 50. There are comiitee members of my gurdwara who are in their 50s and 60s and have openly told lies in the committee meetings. When I asked them aboiut it they replied " tu kal de Bhootni " what do u know u were only born yesterday. So again i ask you dont thknk jus cos these people are young they are not wise or unintelligent. Thats makes us look like idiots when we say that.

Just like when my feelow committee members use my age to denounce or negate any view i have. This is not fair. remember the sakhi of Baba Budha Ji.

chatanga

[Guest]

chatanga veeer ji, since you are learned gursikh who do kathas in the gurdwara, can you please shed some light what could be possible solutions for all these manmat activities? off course no violence or dakka sahi.

However before finding the solution, we need to discuss among ourselves what constitutes as manmat activity, clearly some of us (see- tsingh post) he put a new twist to it , think that manmat term itself is relative, what you think is manmat in slight influence of singh sabha might not be manmat from sampardaie stand point.

You see sikhi is not just black and white you know that, you yourself from taksal.

Here is an classic example- in bhindran taksal in sant gurbachan singh khalsa bhindranwale time and as well in namdhari samparda, nirmale samparda what i have heard you can correct me if i m wrong, there was always vikra towards mazbhi (as indian soceity call it - chauti pauri or dalits), in mehta taksal this praticised was stopped for good. Now i m not promoting this vikra but as you start folding out one manmat activity there are layers of manmat activities hidden behind it. These manmat activities which we can all agree (table/chairs, discrimination against mazbhi sikhs shouldnt be acceptable in khalsa panth, literal baut puja infront of sri guru granth sahib ji acceptable in udasi panth but defaniately not acceptable in khalsa panth- read sri dasam patsah bani) becoming more common in ek nivas or baba wadbhag dera..these things are very deep rooted in the mindset just imagine tradition deep rooted in the generations of generations of sikhs.. i dont even think an hakumnama from takth sahib will root these things out.

Best thing to do is do parchar, and no i dont meant bandi parchar, sliting each other beleifs in the parchar, but parchar of human aim bhramgyan from gurbani, fully adhyatam parchar, ways to get towards the aim within oneself.. for eg- if one is worshiping baut either in form of personality(vidya gurdev) or worshipping sri guru granth sahib ji as an idol, we cannot say this is manmat in the parchar that wont be as effecting saying- this is not the final stage..this is just the beginning, rise above from it. because the intial stage in meditation is combination of dhyan and jaap of vahiguroo in sargun form you get my point?