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tSingh

A list of Nirmala, Udasi and Sevapanthi granths in print

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Gurfateh

I've noticed a few times recently people getting unnecessarily excited about samprday books which are dime a dozen over here in India. So its time to share the love. Here is a list of books you can just pick off the shelf in Chattar Singh Jivan Singh, Amritsar;

- Sant Atma Singh 'Puratan Sakhi Parman' - A nirmala from the last century from the prestigious 'Dera Thakura' in Amritsar (not to be confused with the Sant Atma Singh who helped Trump). I've got two different versions of this, the one currently in print is a straight collection of saakhis about the bhagats and puranaic figures. The older version is a uthanka with sakhis working through Guru Granth Sahib. Still, its a classic.

- Pandit Laal Singh Narottam 'Sakhi Parman' - this is the strangest one to print in my opinion. Its again a long collection of saakhis both puranic and not. I found it not so useful, but the photo of him on the inside is great! Has a nice intro by Mahant Teja Singh double MA if I remember correctly. Pandit Laal Singh set up the 'Hare Ram' Ashram in Amritsar at the end of the 19th century (I think).

- Sant Sampuran Singh 'Sidhant Bodhni' - a magnificent Tika on Bhai Gurdas' kabit svayay. Really great. Sant Sampuran Singh was an important Nirmala who wrote many granths in the early part of the 20th century. Curiously his brother was none other than Bhai Mohan Singh Vaid. He was based in Tarn Taran is also accredited with compiling the a comprehensive collection of rehitnamay, and the first printed version of Praan Sanagali (in devanagri).

- Mahant Ganesha Singh's various granths - a very important and highly respected Nirmala based in Amritsar from the 19th/20th century. He wrote a mass of material, mainly ayurvedic texts (most of which are published by CSJS). His Megh Binod Steek is supposedly still untouchable and used among the Nirmalay I've met with ayurved clinics. But CSJS also have a couple more things he wrote - the superb 'Panj Granthi Teeka' and the classic 'Bharat Mat Darpan'. Both are well worth owning. Each reprinted text has a foreword again by Mahant Teja Singh who heads the 'Nirmal Mandal' thing that turns up at SGPC meetings.

- Mukt Marg - a pretty strange text not to be confused with Mokh Marg. Purported to be Guru Gobind Singh's words, unlikely to be in my humblest of opinions. It gives shabads and ennumerates how many repetitions lead to what and what maryada to keep while doing it. Not surprisingly the Bhindran upsamprda use it, and you'll find refs to it in Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji's texts.

- Narayan Hari Updesh - an astounding granth, and very large with it. Its the life story and teachings of again a very famous Nirmala Sadhu, Pandit Narayan Singh from the illustrious Nirmal Virakat Kutia in Kankhal (not the later Pandit Narayan Singh who does the steeks of Dasam Granth, etc who I don't think was a Nirmala at all). It was compiled by his direct shish Pandit Hardev Singh. It contains quotations from a truely dizzying amount of granths ranging from the Vedas through to Bhai Gurdas with everything inbetween. In fact if you were to collect all the granths he references in here, you'd have yourself a pretty comprehensive library of khat darshanas, Puranic, bhakti and Gurmat literature in all its diversity. Astounding.

- Gyani Bhagwant Singh commentary on Bhavrasamrit, and the compilation of braj bhasha introductory Vedantic texts - this commentary is pretty useless in all honesty. He's broken up the larivar of the text incorrectly, and added a really vague at times inaccurate katha of each verse...Kam pointed out differences in his original text and mine (taken from Sant Surjit Singh), and having looked into it, he's used an earlier steek (I found it from the beginning of the 20th century) and mistakenly copied that author's opening mangal and accredited it as the actual text of Pandit Gulab Singh (oops). Avoid it. He presumably compiled CSJS's cheap compilation of the other texts since the same error occurs in that one too.

- Sant Mohan Singh Sundar Gutka - I've still not worked out whether this is THE Sant Mohan Singh from Bhindran upsamprday. Regardless, its an interesting and useful gutka since it contains other older banis now considered unworthy of reading such as 'Paintis Akhri' among others.

- Udasi Matrey - this is a cheap little thing but very useful. It contains most of the key Matras recited by Udasis from Baba Sri Chand, through the four direct disciples, to Baba Gurditta and later founder 'bakshish' Udasin. Judging by the Arti/Ardas, this is taken from Barra Udasin Akhar/Bawa Pritam Das Ji Udasis.

- Sant Devinder Singh - various books - I like the covers myself (he dresses like Baba Dalel Singh, he's one of his many shish). I've only looked at the Bara Maha katha one, and its OK. Nothing spectacular, but worth a read. He brings in Al-Hallaj, the infamous Sufi, as a sakhi.

- Baba Dalel Singh Virakat talks - The famous Nirmala of doaba area from last century. I can't remember the exact title, but this has recently been published as a thin volume.

Available through CSJS;

- all of Sant Surjit Singh Sevapanthi's authoritative commentaries on

a) the aforementioned steeks of the three 18th century braj bhahsa texts (bhavrasamrit, saruktavali, vichar mala),

B) his Gurbani Path Darpan which includes an extensive history of Bhai Kanhaiyya,

c) his steek on Nitnem,

d) his Anmol Hiray which is the life stories of Baba Kripal Singh and Baba Amir Singh

e) Anmol Rattan steek on Sukhmani Sahib

f) his Sakhi Praman

g) his recently published 'Gaagar ch' Saagar' steek on little bits of Nanak Prakash (inc the mangalachrn someone was asking about recently)

- Kavi Santokh Singh 'Garab Ganjni Tika' - His tika on Japuji to humble the arrognace of Swami Anandghan Udasi's 'Gurbani Tike'. It is superb and a must for anyone trying to understand the traditional Nirmala perspective. Although not available, it was his gurbhai 'Pandit Nihal Singh Thoha Khalsa' who composed an equally remarkable commentary in Sanaskrit on Japuji Sahib.

- Pandit Nischal Das's Vichar Sagar - a very large and incredibly detailed exposition of Advaita Vedanta originally by a dadupanthi scholar from the 19th century (I think). It has punjabi commentary by someone else.

- Pandit Narayan Singh's steek of Pandit Hardyal's braj bhasha rendition of 'Vairag Shatak'.

- Pandit Narayan Singh's steek of Pandit Gulab Singh's 'Prabodhchandrnatak'. A fairly straight forward steek of a classic braj bhasha text, nothing fancy but gets the message across.

-------------------------------

there are other things but I've got to have some lunch...another time. I hope this is useful. I'm not a great fan of the owner of CSJS whose a bit of a wheeler-dealer with an irritating screechy voice, but respect to them for publishing such great stuff. They've also clocked that the NRI 'english book' market and the desi market are almost two different forms of Sikhi!

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I've had my lunch. CSJS do in principle send books overseas. I've bought from them that way in the past. Expect a random hefty price up for airmail. Now, a friend however also tried ordering and seemed to have loads of problems with them. I think as long as your order isn't just one book but a lump, then they're OK. Maybe its a different matter if its standard shipping. check out the site www.csjs.com for info.

Other treasures are hidden away in there, but don't appear on the lists. For example, try asking about 'Paaras Bhag' or other sevapanthi texts and you never know. They also often have some interesting Gyani Balwant Singh Kothaguru and Sant Gyani Mukhtyar Singh Saarang books around, both contemporary Nirmala scholars.

If you're in Amritsar, you should also go around the corner to Sangalwara Udasin Akhara to get some of their books, which are in hindi, punjabi and english. there is one great tika on sri matra and a history of Baba Pritam Das both worth getting, but other than that some really shocking reactionary stuff about Udasis and Sikhs. It pretty much supports what one highly learned young Udasi pointed out at the Ardh Kumbh, which is that not only have quite a lot of modern Udasis (obviously with some very notable exceptions) and the Panchayti Akharas by and large given up on Sikhi, they've began changing their old texts with it...evidence of that is plain to see in many of the Sangalwara Akhara books. Mind you, I guess they had a pretty crap last century with regards Sikhi so why not let off steam.

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Just a quick thing, Sant Surjeet Singh Ji have released the chankaya rajneeti steek now and are working on the adhyatam ramayan steek as we speak. Sant Surjeet Singh i in very poor health at the moment and all of the steeks are being written and produced by giani harbans singh nirmal who do katha at the sewapanthi ashram along with sant gazhab singh ji. All of the steeks are produced from the santhiya and viakhiya training given to both sant gazhab singh andgiani harbans singh nirmal by sant surjeet singh ji.

Also other good books are by sant jagjeet singh ji harkhowalae, alot of the early stuff is vedant along with the bhannu parkash coming out soon.

The Sundar Gutka of Sant Mohan Singh is not from Sant Mohan Singh Bhindrawalae, They Gutka is huge though with lots in it.

Books with a link to the Udasi approach i would recommend the ones by Giani Ishar Singh Nara who had a link to the Bedi Sants

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hehe, DB. I know some people are into that, but people are such lazy asses, they'd then be asking others to read it to them, and then explain it to them, and then act upon it for them, etc. I personally think these things should be searched out with abit of effort, otherwise most people are only reading out of a vague casual interest. If someone can't be arsed to even find this stuff (when as I say its readily available) then whats the point? In fact if a person is driven to find this stuff, they'll find some of it in the local gurdwara libraries or DTF for example (I've picked up some great things from there). Its just a matter of time and effort. Admittedly with the texts that are obscure, withering in punjabi libraries, then fair enough.

A couple more CSJS things I remembered -

- Mahant Ganesha Singh's steek on 'Adhyatam Prakash' - the original is by Kavi Sukha, who was attached the Guru Gobind Singh's darbar. Mahant Ganesha Singh states he was actually 'Pandit Sukh Singh' and a Nirmala at that, with Sukha being his poetic name. Either way its a granth working through Vedant, dinky yet pretty difficult.

- As Kam mentioned, Chanakaya Rajniti steek is available (a Sant Jagjit Singh Herkhowal one is also available through CSJS). But the important thing here is that the braj bhasha rendition of it that they are using is by Senapati, the court poet of Guru Maharaj who also authored 'Sri Gur Sobha'. Obviously as the title suggests this is about wordly social and political affairs.

- 'Gur Gira Raag Mala Mandal Prabodh' by Sant Tehil Singh - this is a short granth about raagmala. not my cup of tea, but I'm sure the Taksalis and AKJees will love it.

- Sant Prem Singh Vaidraj 'Chaar __ di Chownkri' a small green book printed by CSJS, again ayurved, again a nice mangal.

- That book forward-backward was translating by Baba Jagjit Singh Herkhowal about Baba Jawala Singh Herkhowal is a CSJS publication too.

available through them;

- Pandit Nihal Singh Kashiwale - the four 'Char __ di chonkri' ayurvedic granth series. He was the shish of Sri Mahant Pandit Udhav Singh of Panchayti Akhara back when. Again these are pure ayurved but the opening mangal's nice to read and has a snazy new edition printed up with a photo of Pandit Raghuveer Singh Shaastri of Nirmal Sanskrit Vidyala in Kashi on the back, whose a bit of a star himself.

- Pandit Gobind Singh 'Udasi Nirmala' 'Itihas Guru Khalsa' (trans from hindi by Dr. Kapoor) - Pandit Gobind Singh spent most of his life in Kashi and wrote a few granths, this one being originally in hindi. This Kapoor bloke seems to have been unable to make up his mind which samprday he was from so stuck both on the end of his name. He was actually a Nirmala from the end of the 19th beginning of 20th century

there's more I'm sure...

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'Gur Gira Raag Mala Mandal Prabodh' by Sant Tehil Singh - this is a short granth about raagmala. not my cup of tea, but I'm sure the Taksalis and AKJees will love it.

Just to let people know the above book is being scanned onto gurmatveechar and will be available as a pdf file on gurmatveechar.com

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I will try to get as many of these books into PDF form and put them on the net.

I know people my thing sampardas of rara sahib is mainstream sikhi but actually has nirmala roots. For that reason i think the greatest books containing knowledge by nirmala sants are by Sant Waryam Singh Ji Ratwara Sahib Walae

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With the greatest respect Kam, this touches a bit of a sore issue. indeed Sant Waryam Singh and Rara Sahib Sants are Nirmalay, but very much of the new breed, there is most definately an old school and new school of Nirmalay. The old school continue the practices prior to Singh Sabha, the newer ones don't or downplay them.

In terms of what nirmalay sants were about, it was always higher learning - vedant, shaastra, ayurved, khat darshans, yog, etc. Not token quotations from braj bhasha texts, but the real nitty gritty. The Udasis I've met always talk of that heavy Vedantic/philosophical leaning as being the distinctive characteristic beyond the commonalities of virakat lifestyle, prachaar, etc. Leafing through the contents of all the 100s of Nirmala literature (which in all honesty has slowed right down to nearly zilch since the 1930s), it was always high-brow stuff, never simple vyakhiaa, but exposition of tough material.

So for me, as interesting as Rara Sahib's pure advait literature is, it does not for me epitomise what the Nirmalay were and should be about. The influence of the newer form has also taken its effect, and except for a golden few, the sanskrit vidyalas are empty, even the older punjabi steeks remain dusty. One of the only places to find old style gems is Panchayti Akhara, who are on the periphery of Punjab mainstream....and I keep coming back to that quote from one of the older nirmalay that Baba Jagjit Singh mentions in his autobiography who charged the Sants in Punjab of being 'the enemies of knowledge'. I think that largely sums it up both inside and outside the Sant Mandali in Punjab sadly.

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i can understand your views on the 'new bree' of sikhs or as others call then Neo Sikhs! However i would have to say that the knowledge contained in the divans of sant waryam singh ji and their new books. The new books have gian in andali khoj and amar gatha in which they use alot of vedic granths and knowledge contained in them which many other sadhus do not do. Also they were very close to Swami Rama Ji who were amazing at vedic knowledge and mysticism. Their two new books released at Ratwara Sahib are something you would like. The first one called Raj Jog which is all about the chakras and the patanjalis yog shastras and the second being viakhiya of the sri bhagvat geeta.

By the way when are you coming back to leicester?

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I have no doubts Rara sahib, ratwara sahib or jarg sahib are nirmale, new breed or old breed nirmale whatever rocks your boat but one thing for sure sant isher singh ji rara sahib followed in foot steps of his elder sants like- baba karam singh ji hoti mardan wale, i m sure hoti mardan dera during baba karam singh ji time also lack amount of vidya or lack of linguistic skills, ayurvedic skills as tsingh puts it compare to older breed nirmale's. So sant isher singh ji rara sahib wale didnt made any changes in the samparda he belong to...

I dont think new breeds nirmale have any hositlity towards older breed nirmale because new breed nirmale hardly claim themselves nirmale but i have sensed older breed nirmale having aniomisity, disappointment against new breed nirmale as they put it. I still cannot get why?

Does one have to held an certain qualification eg- learning of x number of languages, granths, school of thoughts, vigyanic khoj, learn different medicine types- ayurveda, hymopathy etc in order to be "true nirmala" ?

Does one have to have certain link with nirmale outside punjab in order to be "true nirmala" ? mindset- good true nirmala = good links with old breed of nirmalas?

- Does one always have to write x number amounts of teekas', steeks, atamic granths in order to be "true nirmala"?

If all the questions- answer is Yes then i must say - i m disappointent because during this course somehow we forgot the reason mystical defination of nirmala stated in sri guru granth sahib ji- Nanak Nirmal Panth Chaalaya fully suggesting nirmala word itself doesnt bound to certain hierarchies or certain qualfications,certain links, teekars of x amount of granths, steeks, teekas?. Defination of nirmala is associated with both socio religious circle and fully adhyatamic circle.

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Dont be so naive Neo! I know you are a big fan of Baba Ishar Singh, but don't let your emotions blind you. Yes, some older Nirmalay do have issues about the new form (not 'animosity' as you put it...who are you basing your opinions on???) because they downplay the essential components of the tradition itself! And remember if there's no tradition what does 'Nirmala' mean? Nothing beyond a Sant Baba or a hollow lineage! What can you assume about a Sant Baba...nothing beyond a white kurta. If you have a problem with the tradition, thats your call. Why is it that few Sikhs know about Nirmala achivements, history and literature even though as you point out, some of the biggest Sants in punjab directly link to them? Baba Ishar Singh as I pointed out earlier never ceased from mixing in Vedant into his prachar. What about some of the others?

If we accept the formalisation of the Nirmalay by Guru Maharaj, do some of these descendents meet the criteria? Not really. Do they point people to others who can meet the criteria. No they don't. Why? Because Nirmala traditions have largely been marginalised since the reform...so what do you expect?

What do I mean by Nirmala traditions? The fact that they were the SCHOLARS. By which it means they STUDIED. Their gurdev would teach them or arrange to teach them. They would spend around 5-10 years LEARNING. They would have command over a number of languages for a REASON, the deeper exegesis of Gurbani and shaastra. They PRACTICED what they preached (not hankari know it alls). The two being interchangable - vidya and practice. They gave their lives to little recompense and hardship for the sake of SEVA.

So then I'm AMAZED by your 'true nirmala' argument...isn't that the same one AKJ come up every time people talk about Nihangs?? 'A true Nihang is anyone who is fearless, a sipahi with nothing to do with Nihang tradition'....NO it isn't! IN FACT it is this denigration, undermining and rejection of tradition that has caused so many problems! Problems you yourself go onto other forums to rant about.

Is a 'true nirmala' anyone who is pure/sant? NO it isn't, they are a true Sant, pavittar, they are 'nirmal'. Do they maintain the traditions of the Nirmal bhekh...NO not necessarily. For the Nirmalay the mystical part comes OUT of the learning, of the teekas (no chicken and egg here). It is one and the same. Parmatma is in gyaan roop to be comprehended. The vidya then enables that also.

I'm sorry to sound harsh, but I'm surprised by your response. The term 'samprdaya', 'parampra' and 'bhekh' DO have meaning, they are not hollow terms. If someone does lots of seva, or is very detached or is saintly, it does not mean that they then by definition claim to be from the 'sevapanthi' 'udasi' or 'nirmala' tradition.

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Likewise, I didn't mean to sound rude for which I apologise (I was having a bad day)...and don't think that I disagreed with what you were saying. I hold that at the same time. The moment this sort of vidya (not all forms) stops being a tool for transcending the petty ego, it becomes the shackles of ignorance as we so all too often nowadays with modern scholars.

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Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh,

I think that it's better to think about the reason why GOD send Saints at various times before coming to argument about Nirmale tradition.

The time at which Sant Attar Singh Ji, Sant Baba Karam Singh Ji Hote mardan wale came to this world, it was the time when most of the Sikhs were moving away from Sikhism. Some were converting to Hinduism, some to Christians. If at that time, Saints have taught the ayurdeva, vedas, and other scholarly stuff, then do we think that a normal person could have understand that?

I request everyone to look at the figure/count of Sikhs before Sant Karam Singh, Sant Attar Singh Ji, and Sant Isher Singh Ji and then after they left for Sachkhand.

The important point is Saints are here to guide this world towards true ONE GOD, and NOT to sustain the previous traditions. They may or may not follow the traditions. Guru Gobind Singh prepared baptized Sikhs (Khalsa), Guru Nanak Dev Ji never started Sikh baptism.

Secondly, it's NOT that some Sants don't know various languages, have knowledge of vedas etc..... they do have all knowledge (because a Sant/Brahmgyani is one who have attained GOD and have Brahm gyan).....but the thing vidhaya/knowedge is supposed to benefit the person, but if a normal person cannot understand the vidhaya, then what's the reason to write the deep granths.....Sants duty is to lead people on GOD's path and NOT to write and study themselves.

SCHOLAR: The one who STUDIES many many books, granths, literature.

SANT/BRAHMGYANI: The one who attains all knowldege from the creator himself. All the knowledge came directly from the creator. They don't need to study in order to know something.

Sant/Brahmgyanis are automatically Scholars, but the vice versa is NOT true.

Moreover, it may also happen that one Sant from same samprada may write Granth, and the other might not. If we say older Sants did this, but modern don't does this, then we are wrong. THEY ARE ONE JOT. All our 10 Gurus is ONE jot and that same jot is also present Sant Attar Singh Ji, Sant Baba Karam Singh Ji, Sant Isher Singh Ji. If we manmukh people say Guru Nanak Dev did this, but Guru Gobind Singh Ji this, then we are wrong.

And whatever a Sant/Brahmgyani does, it is understandable only to HIM. He might do the things in different way. Who are we to raise the questions??

Before anything Nirmale, Sant, Brahmgyani etc. etc. etc. etc. .............they are one with GOD, where everything ceases to exist. There is only GOD and everything else is false.

bhul chuk de maffi

das

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I would like to rebut das

1) this thread isn't about the reason why god sent saints. It is about the contribution to scholarship by previous orders. It is imperative to note that guru gobind singh ji's darbar in anandpur was scholastic and the scholars were the ones who were saved.

2)I think the mention of khem singh bedi is in order as he mobilized many to work towards revisiting their sikh roots.

3)The reason I believe sikhs converted was the changes in the economic and social fabric. I don't feel many care to really know god, nor have many cared to know god in the past.

4) ayurved was to help the poor people, not to teach them. They learned from chronic experiences. vedas and scholarly stuff was understood to better understand the framework to further propogate truth to as many people as possible...the educated and uneducated populaces...hence sikhi or dharam has been brought through a medium that people would understand. Their job was to get normal people to understand, and I believe they did.

5)I have looked at the figure count. Do numbers make up sikhi? what about the quality of sikhs at that time? Either way, I agree with you that these gurmukhs through their life and prachaar brought many into the sikh fold. I respect that, and I have nothing against any of them...although I prefer raag to dharana.

6) I disagree, most saints have been adherents to previous traditions so they do sustain them. Many don't follow traditions, and many create their own...which then become traditions...exemplary they are; but there is a larger framework. I think the approach is everything has god, so get in touch with that one god as opposed to nothing has god and drop everything to get into that god.

7) k, I'll pose a scenario. some saints say sach khand is a place, others say it is a state....who is right? 2 brahmgyani's saints said this....isn't this what scholarship would decipher? .....really....look at it...what is real, and what isn't real....what has naam and what doesn't have naam...can you see naam in everything? or is it sifted above everything?

8)I feel you are incorrect here. Our guru's wrote and studied themselves. Were they not brahmgyani? how are they supposed to help others if they don't?....its not a magic wand thing

9)k, if all the knowledge came from god. why don't we all just live off of the brahmgyani?

10) how are brahmgyani's automatically scholars???? explain this to me

11) how do you know they are one jyot. who said that one jot is present in sant attar singh etc etc...?

12) k, that makes sense about sant brahmgyani knowing what they do..it goes for us not so brahmgyani and no so sant folk. Ie. I may compliment you to get something out of you...what is the scope of this? Its hard for me and others like me who live with real pain and happiness to hibernate in a theology or some precept of reality which is supposed or real till I feel it. I do have faith, faith is based on reality and seeing how everything you have discussed has actually shaped my real world!

I see guru sahib as an ocean...I'm just sad that we turned guru sahib into an ice rink!

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tsingh, i have a lot of respect for you and your views but again with rara sahib samparda as you can see on their website they have the knowledge of all of the vedant texts and are slowly preparing them in pdf files like the faridkot teeka, twarikh gur khalsa, sri gurpartap sooraj granth.

They hope to get all of the sant bhasha granths on line such as viveksar, parchi bhai addan shah, parbodh chandar natak and other vedant granths will all be on the net with viakhiya. The Samparda still learns about all granths like the other nirmalas.

They may be a new breed in the clothing not being that of the distinctive nirmalas but the training that they recieve is from many other sants for various knowledge. Take a look at Sant Baljinder Singh Ji Rara Sahib Walae, they are the ones putting all of the literature on the net, they spent years at both Sato Wale Gali and Sevapanthi Ashram along with Giani Mohan Singh Azad learning from Sant Kirpal Singh Ji, Sant Surjit Singh and Sant Makhan Singh. They have the traditional nirmala roots.

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First things first that I am NOT a scholar, i do not know anything, i am here (in this world) because I was unable to do what GOD wanted me to do. That's the reason HE sent me to this world in order to merge with HIM.

I'm sorry if my post was something out of this thread. My point was: NOT to say that scholarly work is not necessary. I was saying that scholarly work alone can't be the ONLY determining factor for a Samparda.

Raag to dharana

I salute and respect you that you prefer raag. There is nothing equal if you are aware of raag and you can play and understand the raag. But it does NOT mean that dharna is nothing. Dharna/Kachi bani: According to some: everything that is not included in Guru Granth Sahib Ji is kachi bani.

Can they shed some light on: Why we discuss ithas of shahibzade and other Sikh ithas, that's not included in Guru Granth Sahib. Why don't we read Guru Granth Sahib Ji in raag as Guru Granth Sahib Ji is written in Raags.

Anything that discuss one GOD IS good and takes us micro-step near to HIM. Even a thought that: "I should say Waheguru" is good and takes us one step nearer to GOD.

How are brahmgyani's automatically scholars???? explain this to me

Firstly, I canNOT explain anything......who am I to explain? Learn this from Gurbani.

First thing according to Gurbani: "Brahmgyani aap Nirankar"

According to Gurbani, there is NO difference between Nirankar and Brahmgyani. So, therefore naturally, GOD/Brahmgyani knows what vidiaya HE created.

Here Brahmgyani is NOT a merly easy word which we even use on Gurdwara stages to represent a kirtanea/kathakar.

Faith is based on reality?

You are 100% correct here. But can a nemana ask, what is reality?

The reality is GOD himself. Everything else comes from the combination of maya and just a illusion. Is there anything permanent? Is there any home in this entire world which didn't face death of a family member? What is permanent?

how do you know they are one jyot. who said that one jot is.......

We can learn these things from a Sant/Brahmgyani.

I am hesiting to write the following that I leant because I know many learned modern scholar will not accept this.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji will take birth 84 times during kalyug. 11 times as Gurus, 71 times as Saints, and rest as a ___. (i don't remember the third type). Here please no long debates, don't worry , we all will know this once we are out of this 5 element body.

Do numbers make up Sikhi?

In different cases: Yes and No. We need 5 payaras in order to give amrit to shardhalo. Here number matters, why? Guru Gobind Singh Ji has said that when there is ___ million khalsa, I will hand over the teasure to them. This treasure is said to be in __ river. Sorry, I don't remember the exact number and place. Here also number matters.

But we start indulging into numbers all the time, and does not move a step further to GOD, then what's the use of knowing that GOD is ONE in number. Here numbers does not hold value.

Some saints say sach khand is a place, others say it is state.....

What I understood from Sant/Brahmgyani is that: Sachkhand is a place as well as state in certain terms. It depends upon on how we differentiate between place and state. Is Air a state under which we breathe OR Air is a place (surrounding earth) where we go to take breath?

Sachkhand is the highest place where GOD resides (not in the terms of where GOD physically live.....HE lives in everyone also.....we don't have to go anywhere because GOD is within us......it's hard to explain.....I can't put this into words).......one do NOT have to travel by any means to reach Sachkhand....One can visit the Sachkhand through the dasam dwar. Now, if one has reached the Sachkhand during meditation through the dasam dwar, then we can say that it's just a state because physically (physical according to dunave/worldly point of view) the person is here.

The things are entirely different once we're outside of this limited body.

Brahmgyani is the one who has already merged with GOD, know where exactly is Sachkhand, which route is best to reach GOD in today's environment.

How could a scholar who has just read millions of books regarding Sachkhand and GOD, but have never visited a place guide us for GOD?

In each yug, there are different ways to attain GOD. In previous yugs, people were having very very long ages. They were very strong. They did hundreds of years tapasaya through Parayanam. But in Kalyug, Guru Nanak Dev Ji told us Naam marg because of kalyug's envirnoment. It's NOT that Guru Nanak Dev Ji rejected Parayanam, it's just Naam marg is feasible is kalyug. We won't be able to do tap in kalyug. So, same way naam diyan techniques can only be learnt from a Sant because everything in this world becomes easy with a technique. Without technique the same thing is hard.

We need to go to Sant/Brahmgyani in order to learn the actual truth, and NOT to scholar.

I don't want to enter in argument, but the ultimate reality is GOD and we all will came to know of it one day. Some have already learnt, some are learning, some are beliving, some are waiting to learn.

And regarding the roots of Nirmale, Udasi and so on......including ourself is ONE which is GOD..........everything comes from GOD and goes into GOD. Just wait and watch.

I don't have even the 0% knowledge, I am a learner, so bhul chuk de maffi.

das

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das,

thank you for your kind response. may maharaaj keep your shardha and your dhyaan pakka :). I appreciate your post and more clearly see your side of things

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Absolutely Kam, I 100% agree. And I never pitched my comments against Baba Ishar Singh Rarewale and his descendents who I have the greatest respect for. Like I've said earlier, this applies as much to the boys in peach as it does to the boys in white. Its just the set up is slightly more geared towards maintaining the tradition in Kankhal compared to say Ludhiana.

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Gurfateh !

I don't know if this thread is the appropriate place to post these , but here goes anyway - I thought you may like to see them.

I feel they show the affection and links among the various traditions.

The articles are from a souvenir edition of Panjab Times UK (Sant Rarewala Ank) 3 Sep 1976.

The first is by Surjit Singh 'Sewapanthi' - Dera Sant Baba Amir Singh Ji Maharaj Gali Satowali Katra Karam Singh (Amritsar)

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The second is a 'Kavita' by Sri Sant Hari Kamal Ji Haridwar Walian

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Sant Isher Singh Ji and Sant Kishen Singh Ji

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Sant Kishen Singh ji receives a dastar from Jathedar Mohinder Singh ji after the 'Satarey' de Bhog of Sant Isher Singh ji in 1975

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Hope you enjoyed them

Freed

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"Raag to dharana

I salute and respect you that how prefer raag. There is nothing equal if you are aware of raag and you can play and understand the raag. But it does NOT mean that dharna is nothing. Dharna/Kachi bani: According to some: everything that is not included in Guru Granth Sahib Ji is kachi bani. Can they shed some light on: Why we discuss ithas of shahibzade and other Sikh ithas, that's not included in Guru Granth Sahib. Why don't we read Guru Granth Sahib Ji in raag as Guru Granth Sahib Ji is written in Raags. "

Just a few points veer ji,

I personally do not strictly class dharna as kirtan, I like to think of it as “Parchaari Kirtan” (apologies for inventing a new term).

It played an important role from it’s inception in the late 1800’s/early 1900’s, as at this time Christian Missionaries were relentlessly visiting village to village in Punjab singing hymns/giving sermons using the vajaa. The early Sants countered this by using the easy to learn and use vaaja (thus changing the traditional parchaarak role to dual kirtani/parchaarak role) and Ras Leela (Krishna pooja/kirtan) style of kirtan, which is very easy to follow and energetic, and uses basic rural/musical items like chimte and Chennai. This new system had the desired affect, and devastated the Missionaries task (one of the few places in the world where it did so). As most know, until then, very few Nirmalai, Nihangs, Seva Panthi etc also did kirtan, with a few famous exceptions like Baba Shaam Singh Ji Aden Shaahi. And although some people don’t want to consider it, the British did have a role and agenda in the decline of traditional kirtan as they did in the decline of traditional martial art (as per the Akali eradication). But that’s another subject.

So this was a matter of necessary adaptation at the time. Today, this type of kirtan is largely still only practiced because of recent cultural traditions, and is misunderstood by many who deem it “kirtan” in the strictest sense, hence a partial reason for the katchi baani accusations.

Vaheguru

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