Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Kam1825

something controversial

Recommended Posts

Right before i have a fatwa issued against me or banned from this forum i just want to say what i have here.

I have an alternative version of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Katha by Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji recorded in the early 1960's. Altogether there are three different versions of the complete katha, one is being released on mp3 under the name of "Sabh Te Utam Har Ki Katha". The second version i have and the third version is with a singh in America. Whilst cleaning the katha i found katha of a shabad completly different to the one that was released. This Katha is on the following shabad

sloku mÚ 1 ]

salok ma 1 ||

Salok, First Mehla:

imhr msIiq isdku muslw hku hlwlu kurwxu ]

mihar maseeth sidhak musalaa hak halaal kuraan ||

Let mercy be your mosque, faith your prayer-mat, and honest living your Koran.

srm suMniq sIlu rojw hohu muslmwxu ]

saram su(n)nath seel rojaa hohu musalamaan ||

Make modesty your circumcision, and good conduct your fast. In this way, you shall be a true Muslim.

krxI kwbw scu pIru klmw krm invwj ]

karanee kaabaa sach peer kalamaa karam nivaaj ||

Let good conduct be your Kaabaa, Truth your spiritual guide, and the karma of good deeds your prayer and chant.

qsbI sw iqsu BwvsI nwnk rKY lwj ]1]

thasabee saa this bhaavasee naanak rakhai laaj ||1||

Let your rosary be that which is pleasing to His Will. O Nanak, God shall preserve your honor. ||1||

WHilst listening to this katha by sant gurbachan singh ji many stories of the prophets of islam come up but one that surprised me. This is about the Quran itself. I suggest all listen to this and share your views.

One thing i will say is why would Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji make this story up when you look at the knowledge they had and the brahmvidiya possessed. The katha can be found on the following link only. I have still not put this katha and alot more which have great stories on the prophets and meanings of the koran onto the net.

http://www.gurmarag.net/SikhAwareness/Audi...seet_Sidhak.mp3

Once again please do not shoot the messanger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

its difficult to hear what He is saying. He talks about the Quran today, not being the real authentic quran right? and something about letters written in Mecca and medina and then something about satan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok i agree with you there, that is what it states, the katha is actually about the real author of the Quran

Talking about the quran, the Shias and Sunnis differ in the validity and authenticity of the Quran. The Shias believe in teh Quran of Ali while the Quran we see today has been compiled by the sunni caliph uthman and before that the versions of the quran varied. Now was Uthman knowledgeable to know what was really in the quran!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the majority of todays shia scholars agree that there has been no tahreef- alterration of the Quran, but i do not know what the scholars of the 10th century said.

personally i do not think there would be a problem with men collecting the quran 20 years after the death of the Prophet.. If all versions of Japji sahib were to dissapear, i think i would be able to sit down with a friend and rewrite all of it by memory, so why would a handfull of sahaba not be able to do the same with the Quran if they had memorized it.

view on the issue of tahreef from modern scholars:

Shaykh Saduq (ra) said

"Our belief is that the Qur'an which Allah revealed to His Prophet Muhammad is (the same as) the one between the two covers (daffatayn). And it is the one which is in the hands of the people, and is not greater in extent than that. The number of Surah's as generally accepted is one hundred and fourteen ...And he who asserts that we say that it is greater in extent than that, is a liar."

sources

1. Etikadat Shaykh Saduq 93, Published Iran)

2. Awail-el-Mukalat, Page 55-56, Published Najaf

3. Shi'ite Creed (al-I'tiqadat al-Imamiyyah), by Shaykh Saduq, English version, p77

Allamah Muhammad Ridha Mudhaffar said

"We believe that the Holy Qur'an is revealed by Allah through the Holy Prophet of Islam dealing with every thing which is necessary for the guidance of mankind. It is an everlasting miracle of the Holy Prophet the like of which cannot be produced by human mind. It excels in its eloquence, clarity, truth and knowledge. This Divine Book has not been tampered with by any one. This Holy Book which we recite today is the same Holy Qur'an which was revealed to the Holy Prophet. Any one who claims it to be otherwise is an evil-doer, a mere sophist, or else he is sadly mistaken. All of those who have this line of thinking have gone astray as Allah in Qur'an said:

"Falsehood can not reach the Qur'an from any direction (41:42)"

source

1. The Beliefs of Shi'ite School, by Muhammad Ridha Mudhaffar, English version, p50-51

Shaykh Abu Ja'far Musawi said

"The main reason behind the compiling of this book is to teach us about the meanings of the words contained in the Qur'an. As far as the question of there being any addition or deletion in the Qur'an, there is no need to debate on this matter as everyone agrees there has been no change made to it the comments of Sayyid Murtaza Alam ul-Huda have been discussed and proved. I have seen many commentaries in the books of Shi'a and Ahl'ul Sunnah suggesting that the Qur'an is incomplete or that a verse has been transferred from its original place to another but these are secluded cases and cannot relied upon. It is best to abandon such texts and let them become extinct?.we are sure of Qur'an being true. The Ummah has never objected or rejected Qur'an.

"

source

1. Al Batiyan Fil Tafseer-ul-Qur'an, 1st Edition, Page 3, Published Najaf

Sayyid Murtaza Alam ul-Huda said

"We have a firm belief that the Qur'an is complete in the same way that we believe in the existence of Kufa, Basra or any other city, or the great events that occurred through history. The reason for this firm belief is (firstly) due to the deep affections Muslims have towards the Qur'an and other reason which keep this book, of Almighty Allah, safe from any alteration. Also the Qur'an is (a sign of) the miracle of Prophet Muhammad's Apostleship. It is the source and foundation via which we locate our religious edicts and regulations. It is for this reason that Muslim scholars throughout history have taken great care in its compilation to the extent that if they were unsure about the minutest of matters, they would to examine it (the Qur'an) rigorously. Our belief about the compilation being the exact copy (as the original) is as strong as our belief that the Qur'an is the Book of Allah Allah. The present Qur'an is exactly the same Qur'an that was compiled during the life of Prophet Muhammad (S)."

sources

1. Tafseer Majma-ul-Bayan, Edition 1 Page 15, Published Iran

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

but at the same time i have wondered why Guru Nanak said "sahas atharan kahan kateba" as the Quran does not say there are 18.000 worlds..this is only to be found in the hadith collections, which are not a part of the Quran..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i am not here really at a spiritual level where the divine has blessed me with the knowledge so that i can see what the truth was or not at the time of the prophet. The reason for this thread is that Sant Gurbachan SIngh Ji were seen as a divine 'nit' avtar and supposedly could see back and foreward into time like brahmgianis ca. the reaso why this post has gone up is to ask why would Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji state these things re the Quran if it was not True. I dont think Sant Ji gained any benefit or active converts if people are going to say this later by talking about the foundation of the quran in the katha.

i mst stress the MP3 is actually Katha/Santhiya for the students of Taksal so there would only be around 30 people there and no sangat. So either way they did not say these things to please anyone present.

So the question which i have asked is why say this if it is not the truth?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Javanmard

Beh nam-e Khoda

1. On the issue of tahrîf I have to again have to tell amardeep that although modern Shi'a scholars assert that the present Qur'an is the same as the one revealed to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) this is actually a modern trend that finds its roots in the watering down of th Shi'a tradition after the ghaybba of Imam Mahdi (fta). In fact the earliest hadith collections contain a overwhelming majority of explicit hadiths declaring quite clearly that the Qur'an we have today is a truncated version of the real Qur'an. In fact there is a whole section in Basa'ir ad-Darajat dedicated to this issue entitles "That the Imams possess the entirety of the Qur'an as it was revealed to the Prophet".Here is one such hadith:

"Imam Muhammad al Baqir said: There is absolutely no one from the people that can say he has the entirety of the Qur'an as it was revealed by Allah except a liar; the one only who possesses it all and has preserved it as it was revealed by Allah was Ali ibn Abi Talib and the Imams after him!"

Even al Kafi contains hundreds of such hadiths. There are literally hundreds of hadiths clearly proving the doctrine of tahrif whereas the anti tahrif opinions only come in much later works.

2.The story told in the katha is not only not found in original sources be they Islamic or Christian but also makes no sense whatsoever. The Prophet (pbuh) had no murshid. No trace of it is found in any contemporary account. This is the original sources vs a man of the 20th century in some village in Panjab.

3. I must say that I am not surprised given the relative ignorance of Islam displayed in that katha (no disrespect intended, it's just that some scholars have their weaknesses). I'll note the following about the katha:

a. the shahada is mispronounced

b. the typical Panjabi Sikh obsession about halal meat. Now halal in Islam primarily means "permissible" in the context of usul e fiqh. Now nothing in the shabad leads us to see halal as referring to meat. This is what the average non-Muslim Panjabi sees, and this is a very very very limited view. You'd expect something more profound from a great scholar.

c. Admin Note: Edited Off-topic and sarcastic remarks will be deleted.(Why do you try to hide the truth: there is a very audible burp in the last minutes of the recording, it's digusting! I am not being sarcastic just pointing it out!I am in fact surprised that you don't say anything about the katha itself which clearly is blasphemous against the Holy Prophet (pbuh) when in fact he is called the beloved of God in Bhai Gurdas' Varan).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Javanmard Ji,

What is the difference between the Prophet Mohammed and 12 Imams?

My knowledge on Islam is limited, but from the discussions I have seen, you have compared the 12 Imams to Guru Sahiban i.e. jagdi jyot, so where does the Prophet fit into this?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Javanmard

The Prophet (pbuh) brings the zahir of external aspect of religion whereas the Imams (as) bring the batin or interna aspect of religion, whilst Lady Fatimah (as) represents the secret of secrets.

The Imams say: "We are the Face of God and Muhammad is the Veil of God!"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Javanmard i assure you that i have the original recordings and i have not edited the audio in any way when converting it from the original reels to MP3, this is what is said in the Katha. Remember this is not the words of any wanna be scholar. This Katha is by a real scholar who has deep roots in both the nihang and nirmala tradition and was a real jewel for the Sikh Panth. Why would someone like this make up lies knowing that Blasphamy is a grevious sin and eill effect them in accordance to the Law of Karma. This is the same Sant that most of the Sewapanthi, nirmalas, Udasis and Nihangs used to go to for scriptural knowledge, santhiya, etc. This recording is actually from the santhiaya to the gianis that have come to learn and not actually to the sangat. So this recording was not made in order to mislead sangat and gain converts as many may have thought. This recording was made in order to teach those who wanted to learn katha in the future.

If you speak to Taskalis including Sant Mohan Singh Ji Bhindrawalae who have very very strong links with the Nihangs will validate this recording if you do not believe me. Thay were present when this was made along with Giani Pritam Singh Ji and Sant HAri Singh Ji Randhawae Walae

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Javanmard

No I believe this is a original recording. I am just not impressed by Giani Gurbachan Singh's katha which shows blatant ignorance of Islam.You are using the personality argument:

1. X is a saint

2. whatever a saint says is true

3. Sant Gurbachan Singh said this about the Prophet so it must be true

even though:

1. He blatantly misinterprets halal here

2. Mispronounces the shahada (surely someone with knowledge of Arabic and Persian wouldn't have done that)

3. Comes up with a story that NO Islamic or non-Islamic source backs up some 1400 years after the death of Rasulillah (pbuh) and you actually expect me to take this seriously? Knowing perfectly well that Muhammad is the beloved of Rab (yara) as he is called in the Varan!

Be Khoda had I been there I would have slapped his mouth!!!

Until today I used to admire Sant Gurbachan Singh truly. I have taken his picture off the wall in my house now. I cannot express my dissapointment and anger at this.I pray Rab has forgiven him for that. Thanks for this recording anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kam1825,

See Bhai Gurdas Jee’s Varan below with reference to the Prophet (pbuh) and have a read in full of the preceding comments and those that follow, perhaps the use of the term ‘yaara’ will be more apparent when placed in context:

ouankaar aakaar kar eaek kavaao pasaao pasaaraa||

All prevading Oankar through His One Word created the whole expansive cosmos.

panch thaath paravaan kar ghatt ghatt andhar thribhavan saaraa||

Through the five elements, as the quintessence He permeated in the three worlds and their denominations

kaadhar kinae n lakhiaa kudharath saaj keeaa avathaaraa||

That creator could not be seen by anyone who to expand Himself created the infinite nature(prakrti).

eikadhoon kudharath laakh kar laakh bianth asankh apaaraa||

He made myriad forms of nature.

rom rom vich rakhioun kar brehamandd karorr shumaaraa||

In His each one hair He gethered up millions of worlds.

eikas eikas brehamandd vich dhas dhas kar aathaar outhaaraa||

And then in one universe He comes in tens of forms.

KAETHAE BAEDH BIAAS KAR KEE KATHAEB MEHANMADH YAARAA||

He has created many a dear personality such as Vedavyas and Muhammad dear to the Vedas and the Katebas respectively.

kudharath eik eaethaa paasaaraa ||a||

How wonderfully the one nature has been expanded into many.

Bhai Gurdas makes a second reference later with more expansion on the influence of the various 'mats' that were in existence during his time as follows:

bhee gilaan jagath vich chaar varan aashram ouaepaaeae||

In view of the prevaling lassitude in the world, four varnas and four Ashrams were established.

dhas naam saniaaseeaaan jogee baareh panthh chalaaeae||

Then ten orders of ascetics and twelve orders of yogis came into being.

jangam athae saraevarrae dhagae dhiganbar vaadh karaaeae||

Further jangams, the wanderers, sramans and Digambrs, naked jain ascetics also started their disputations.

brehaman bahu parakaar kar shaasathr vaedh puraan larraaeae||

Many Categories of brahmins came into being who propounded Shastras, Vedas and Purans contradicting one another.

khatt dharashan bahu vair kar naal shhathees paakhandd chalaaeae||

The mutual irreconcilability of the six Indian philosophies further added many hypocrisies.

thanth manth raasaaeinaa karaamaath kaalakh lapattaaeae||

Alchemy, tantra, mantra and miracles became everything for people.

eaekas thae bahu roop karoopee ghanae dhikhaaeae||

By getting divided into myriad sects(and castes) they produced a horrible look.

kalijug andhar bharam bhulaaeae ||aa||

They all were deluded by kaliyug.

bahu vaatteen jaag chaleeaaan jab hee bheae mehanmadh yaaraa||

WHEN VARIED SECTS GOT PREVALENT, THEN MUHAMMAD, THE BELOVED OF GOD WAS BORN.

kaam behaathar sang kar bahu bidhh bair birodhh pasaaraa||

THE NATION GOT DIVIDED INTO SEVENTY TWO DIVISIONS AND MANY TYPES OF ENMITY AND OPPOSITION ERUPTED.

rojhae eedh namaajh kar karamee bandh keeaa sansaaraa||

THE WORLD WAS BOUND TO ROZA, ID, NAMAZ, ETC.

peer pakanbar aaleeai ghaas kuthab bahu bhaekh savaaraa||

Pirs, paigambars aulias, gaus and qutabs came into being in many countries.

thaakur dhuaarai dtaahikai thih thaaurreen maseeth ousaaraa||

The temples were replaced by mosques.

maaran gou gareeb dhharathee oupar paap bithhaaraa||

Less powerful were killed and thus THE EARTH BECAME REPLETE WITH SIN.

kaafar mulehadh eiramanee roonmee jangee dhushaman dhaaraa||

ARMENIANS AND RUMIS WERE DECLARED APOSTATES (KAFIRS) AND THEY WERE DECIMATED IN THE BATTLE FIELDS.

paapae dhaa varathiaa varathaaraa ||aa||

The SIN BECAME UBIQUITIOUS ALL AROUND.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Javanmard

you wouldn't have slapped anyones mouth...

but fair enough, you dont seem happy. :(

Ooooo Javanmard they would have shot you before you even lifted your hand ooooooo

yeah I am impressed indeed!

Niranjana...how is the Prophet (pbuh) responsible for the actions of the Ummayads and the Abbassids?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Niranjana i am aware of the Bhai Gurdas Di Varan and will be putting up the recordings by Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji of The Varan on the net in the next month.

Ok Javanmard there is no islamic scholar who backs this btu many islamic scholars back the concept of the Satanic Verses. These are scholars who are quoted by both Shias and Sunnis. But still Muslims dont like to talk about this incident and why would they, How can a prophet be duped by Satan into believing he is recieving the words from the divine. Because the problem becomes, that on how many occaisions did mohammed actually get duped by satan and not realise and today devoted muslims are quoting passages of the quran from the devil and not God.

Just something to think about. I live by the words of the Guru and the brahmgianis that have preserved the faith in which ever form it is now. Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji were one of the greatest scholars of the 20th century in Sikhi, very well respected by Sadhus of all sects, If other Sadhus thought that they were corrupting the words of God i am sure they would have be made to answer the accusations made. But none were during their life time. Again i would say if this is a blatent lie then why say it!

Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji are someone who led the life of a Brahmgiani and all of the followers and contemporaries praise their life and the spiritual powers they possessed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Javanmard

NO SHI'A scholar NONE backs the idea of the Satanic verses! It was an invention of Bani Ummayyah to discredit the Prophet (pbuh). You people are incredible in your love for blasphemy. I find it interesting that you people chose to agree with the party of the oppressors.You people chose personality cult over truth: incredible!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Javanmard

Amardeep:

the idea of satanic verses is a joke!

But no Amardeep, Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranvale was a great saint! I mean just listen to the recording:

1. He can't even pronounce the shahada properly, thinks halal is only a type of meat (ignoring that jhatka would be considered halal by Shi'a ulema) but of course he knows Islam better than anyone else!

2. He could see in the past and the future.He did it so well that he told Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranvale how to win against the Indian army in 1984. In fact he was able to prevent the split between Baba Mohan Singh and Baba Kartar Singh. Yes luminous indeed!!!

3. And the burp in the last few minutes is an adhyatmik updesh about nad brahm!!!

Only pig ignorant fools can find any validity in Giani Gurbachan Singh's katha. It stinks of ignorance about Islam and sheer blasphemy. Saying that the Prophet (pbuh) was inspired by Satan equals to saying that Guru Nanak spend three days in a whorehouse instead of going to Sachkhand (Maharaj forgive me for using these words). NO Shi'a scholar has EVER insulted Maharaj the way you pigs insult Ahl e Mohammad (as).May God inflict upon you a punishment such that the people of hell beg to be spared from it themselves!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"The Prophet (pbuh) brings the zahir of external aspect of religion whereas the Imams (as) bring the batin or internal aspect of religion, whilst Lady Fatimah (as) represents the secret of secrets.

The Imams say: "We are the Face of God and Muhammad is the Veil of God!"

And Satguru brings all 3 aspects?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Javanmard

Ahl ul Bayt (as) always brings the 3 aspects it's just that the Prophet emphacises the zahir whilst the Imams emphacise the batin. The Prophet is per definition an Imaml as well endowed with the attribute of prophethood.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...