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Kam1825

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Guest Javanmard

You maybe but not the rest of your community. Whilst Sant Gurbachan Singh insulted the Prophet a few thousand km away in Tehran Agha Tabatabai was praising Krishna and the Bhagavadgita. Notice the difference...

As to Arabic and Persian, the later Rahitname forbid reading and writing Persian.

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How do you know that i know nothing about shia'ism? Youll be surprised. and i have never disrespected any of your beliefs, nor do i care to what anyone else believes as everyone has their own view of how they perceive sikhi to be.

And about the hadeeths your telling me that every single hadeeth that can be found today are 100% accurate? I did not say they are fake as it is obvious that most of them are real, what i am saying it that some have been added, edited etc.

Please, it is a fact that many muslim rulers created and changed certain hadeeths to back their own cases up.

Persian is a very well respected language, poetic traditional, hard language to learn, i respect it along with arabic. Your point of bhai nand lal ji's works being in persian are true, thats why i read his works in gurmukhi and english.

And about zafarnama, hikiytaan these are in dasam granth so i dont have a problem with reading these.

Do you still think that mir mehdi and imam mahdi are not the same?

What i'm saying is that no one with such great power you calll a 'imposter' will be able to kill the 24th vishnu unless that soul is also an avataar, its clear that there is only one mehdi mir.

The rahitname in one way can be looked upon as hukam to a certain phase that the khalsa was going through, at that time where the khalsa was at battle with the muslims, there are various rahitname like this.

Can you give the page number of that shabad from sri sarbloh granth as i want to look into it.

And about Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji, i do not think if you listen to him that he is disrespecting Mohammed sahib that way you say he is, yes he has presented his view of the Quran, but he always when he mentions the prophet of islam he says 'mohammed sahib', so it is clear that he is not doing the nindya of the prophet of islam the way you say he is.

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Guest Javanmard

Dhan96crore:

And about zafarnama, hikiytaan these are in dasam granth so i dont have a problem with reading these.

You don't understand farsi. How could you possibly understand them unless you're just being a parrot like Talibans who read the Qur'an without knowing Arabic.And btw...Faris is known to be quite easy compared to Arabic. What are you on about it being difficult?

If you can't even hold a conversation in farsi let alone arabic who are you to have an opinion on Shi'a hadiths?

you can't get away with saying that the Prophet was inspired by Satan and say "Mohammad Sahib". It's like me saying that someone's mother is a whore and then say "Shrimati XYZ Kaur"!!!

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'You don't understand farsi. How could you possibly understand them unless you're just being a parrot like Talibans who read the Qur'an without knowing Arabic.'

Its hard but i do not have the time to learn farsi so i guess you have to make do and with maharaj's kirpa all is understood, if not you have to look into the english translation which is no crime.

And can you answer the questions that i have posted in that same post about mir mehdi?

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Guest Javanmard

At the age you are right now if you don't have the time to learn the language in which Maharaj and Bhai Nand Lal wrote you might as well cut your hair!

Maharaj gave all his time for YOU!!!! And YOU can't even spare 4 hours a weeks to learn farsi?

What a joke!!!

It's all nice and dandy bragging about being a Singh, it's another to walk the walk!!!

How do you expect me to discuss the Imam Mahdi issue when:

a. You admit to knowing nothing about Shi'ism

b. know no Arabic or Persian

c. Clearly have no concept who Imam Mahdi (fta) is in the Shi'a tradition.

d. Have no concept of literary criticism

Santhya my friend is what was taught to kids before. Knowing Santhya doesn't make one a scholar. Santhy was done so kids would understand their bani when they read it. After that they were set to learn Sanskrit, Arabic, Persian, logic,Braj,grammar. Have you studies all those?

NO!

How are you able to:

1. Give an authoritative opinion

2. Expect me to take you seriously

If you claim to follow the great vidvans of the Panth then study before posting nonsense.

Speak to you in 10 years from now!

Khoda Hafez!!!

ps. Our hadiths about Imam Mahdi (fta) don't say that he will kill any Kalki avatar...

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'At the age you are right now if you don't have the time to learn the language in which Maharaj and Bhai Nand Lal wrote you might as well cut your hair!'

Didn't you read when i said a few posts earlier that i do need to learn farsi, arabic, braj, russian, spanish, italian etc as all i need is Gurmukhi for reading Gurbaani, that is all i need i do not need to learn anything else as the shabad is the way forward.

'you might as well cut your hair!'

I'm quite surprised such low thoughts enter your mind, hair is everthing, with out hair the mortal is naked.

'a. You admit to knowing nothing about Shi'ism'

When did i admit this? I know quite alot about the shia beliefs and how they differ with sunnism.

'b. know no Arabic or Persian'

Again i dont need to know anything else as all i need is Gurmukhi!! how many times more?

'. Clearly have no concept who Imam Mahdi (fta) is in the Shi'a tradition.'

I know exactly who he is and what islam's belief of him are. Its clear in shia beliefs and some sunni beliefs that mir mehdi will come at the end of times, or the end of kaljug to save his people, and to also judge the christains according to their bible, jews to their torah and muslims to their quran, basically a kind of saviour for the people of semetic religions. Also how he basically went gupt and shias believe that he lives among their people and can be communicated with etc etc etc, then hazrat isa also comes to join forces with mehdi mir etc etc etc.

'. Have no concept of literary criticism'

Ok if thats what you think then thats fine with me.

I am not disrespecting your views nor have i ever in any way, i am just interested to know if you still think that mehdi mir and imam mahdi are two separate avataars after maharaj clearly explains what he is, who is, what he does, the time or time period of when he comes and how satjug starts, and how mehdi mir falls to hankaar.

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Vaheguru Ji Ki fathe

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Guest Javanmard

The Mir Mahdi of Bachitar Natak and th Qayim of the Sarabloh hymn are two different people. Not only doesn't the description of Mir Mahdi and his title not fit our descriptions but also it doesn't fit into what Bachitar Natak granth actually is: an allegorical play.

Anyone who has studied Indian literature knows that a Bachitar Natak is an allegorical play because of it's structure and many hints for the learned read to understand that the avatars referred in it refer NOT to the real avatars BUT to their representation.Why?

1.Bhagat Ramanand is criticized i Bachitar Natak. Would Maharaj insult a sant? No. So the Ramanand of Bachitar Natak cannot be the Bhagat Ramanand of Adi Guru Granth Sahib.

2. The Mahadin figure is the most obvious proof. It's neither an Arabic nor a Persian word. It's not one of the names of the Prophet AND the Prophet never forced any king to get circumcised. In the time of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) Arabs, Jews as well as Arab Christians were already circumcised and the Prophet didn't defeat any king. The conquest of Persian came AFTER the death of the Prophet. So this cannot be referring to the Prophet.

3. Maharaj also talks about Shiva and Vishnu, yet Japuji Sahib clearly says: Gur Isar Gur Gorakh Barma Gur Parbati Mai!

4. Maharaj critises Krishna and Rama yet gurbani says in bhattan de svaye that Maharaj came as Rama and Krishna

Isn't Maharaj contradicting himself? NO!!!

Maharaj s perfect and devoid of ignorance and sin as are all avatars. If Maharaj came as Rama and Krishna then they must have been perfect as well and sinless. The avatars in Bachitar Natak don't even come in the right chronological order!So why the contradiction?

Because this is a play a natak as the title says and it follows the literary rules of a play. India has a rich tradition of educative plays where abstract realities are represented by allegorical, symbolic characters. So what do these "avatars" represent?

Religious movements that have gone astray because they thought of themselves as superior and laid more importance on external laws rather than nam simran.

The Mir Mahdi figure is the same case. We Shi'as never use the title Mir Mahdi (fta) in the first place because Mir refers to political power whereas we see Imam Mahdi (fta) as bringing a kingdom of conscience NOT an earthly rule. There is hence a conflict between what Imam Mahdi (fta) really is and what Bachitar Natak says. And this is done on purpose. What is being criticized is the tendency among certain Shi'a groups to make Shi'ism a purely political thing as can be seen today. Just look at Muqtada al Sadr or even the doctrine of wilayat e faqih in Iran. THIS is what Guru Gobind Singh was criticizing!!!

Guru Gobind Singh was a man with an incredible culture and knowledge.He expressed himself in the language of the learned people of his time.

As to your knowledge of Persian. How on earth can you say that gurmukhi is enough if you don't understand what you read? So you're just reading the letters then. Are you aware that by doing that you mispronounce the Persian of these banian. Are you aware of the punishment Guru Gobind Singh gave to people who mispronounced gurbani?

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Javanmard a quick thing, earlier you said,

you can't get away with saying that the Prophet was inspired by Satan and say "Mohammad Sahib". It's like me saying that someone's mother is a whore and then say "Shrimati XYZ Kaur"!!!

this was in reference to the recording by sant gurbachan singh. I am guessing you have not heard it well enough. They never mentioned the Quran was inspired by Satan. please hear it again if you do not believe me. And before you ask no it is not edited in any way. Hope that clears up that misunderstanding

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I respect your views brother you deliver in the end, even though it is obvious we differ in our views on mehdi mir lets just agree to disagree as to me i feel that they are the 1.

'The Mahadin figure is the most obvious proof. It's neither an Arabic nor a Persian word. It's not one of the names of the Prophet AND the Prophet never forced any king to get circumcised. In the time of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) Arabs, Jews as well as Arab Christians were already circumcised and the Prophet didn't defeat any king. The conquest of Persian came AFTER the death of the Prophet. So this cannot be referring to the Prophet.'

I disagree with you here because that is just your own view, if you listen to katha by Sant baba jarnail singh ji of bachitar natak he clearly says that this is about the prophet mohammed, also sant baba kartar singh ji's katha on bachitar natak he also says the same, both of the katha's can be found on gurmat veechar.

I respect you as a scholar, but you do not have the brahmgian that sant jarnail singh has, and that of sant kartar singh also.

I respect shia'ism but at the end of the day 96 crore khalsa will rule. :D

Mehdi mir and imam mahdi are the same.

When Sant baba Jarnail Singh Ji khalsa bhindranwale is given permission by Guru Gobind Singh ji to return to earth and establish khalsa raj then you yourself can ask him all you want to about anything you want to know, believe me brother the time is not far now, there were certain things that had to happen on earth before he comes back, nearly all of them have been met.

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Vaheguru Ji Ki Fathe

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Guest Javanmard

Neither Sant Kartar Singh nor Sant Jarnail Singh knew Arabic, Persian let alone the Sirah. Them saying that it's Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is blatant ignorance on their part.

This is a question of historical facts versus the opinions of people who are ignorant of Islam, its history and culture who lived in some village in Panjab. As to Sant Jarnail Singh coming back, he's already back and I have photographic evidence to prove it!!! Seems like you're not well in touch with what Sant Ji is up to these days. I have evidence he's alive and you have peanuts!!!

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all this talk about people being alive, makes me think of last weeks meeting here in Denmark where we had the previlige to have a great Sayyed come and visit us, for the shia sangat to ask questions on various topics. it is not so often that such great souls come to visit us.

one of my friends had been standing in a line for 30 minutes waiting for his turn, and then asked Sayeed ji the question "O great sayyed ji.... Is 2pac still alive???"

lolz luckily sayeed ji was a very funny man with a great sence of humour :)..

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"If you can't even hold a conversation in farsi let alone arabic who are you to have an opinion on Shi'a hadiths? "

javanmard says this also, however, babaji u dont even know arabic either, and ur just learning farsi, yetttttttt, u use to give ur opinon on the hadiths non stop even before u knew farsi

seems hypocritical, u get other ppl who know arabic to tell u, same thing other ppl do

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Guest Javanmard

I actually started Farsi 1 year ago and as to Arabic I studied Arabic grammar in Paris for one year. And as to my knowledge of Islam. If I was able to teach South Asian Islam for three years at SOAS (in the religions of South Asia course) . If Sayyid Mahdi Modaressi sees me fit to speak for two hours on a Shi'a channel viewed by 300 million people in the Middl East who are you to question my knowledge about Shi'ism? Have you published articles on the matter? If you're on a revenge trip we can sort it out when you come to UK. To come up with this cheap sort of bastardly remarks after all the help I provided you. I am looking forward to see you in the UK this July!

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Many of the various Avtars referred to in Bachitter Natak are avtars of Vishnu. The first time Waheguru himself came as GURavtar was when Guru Nanak Dev ji came

Of course, Waheguru came as Narsingh etc, but I'm referring to Guravtar.

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Guest Javanmard

Your distinctions don't derive from gurbani but from a Vaishnava influence in the Nirmala sampradaya. And anyways the Bachitar Natak needs to be read in a different way because of its style.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Respecting ur knowledge Javanmard.........

But i agree with dhan96Crore......

Gurmukhi was made so it was easy and understandable......i thinGobind Singh Ji would rather have sikhs japing nam and reciting bani then trying to learn arabic or farsi...................and brahmgyan is higher than any knowledge in the world..........also if u need to know farsi/arabic to know the meanings of bichtar natak etc how can sants do katha of it?

And about the sikh shia thing.....is it sikhs who also belief in islam or muslims that also believe in guru nanak dev ji?

Also dhan96Crore can you tell us of the certain things that had to happen on earth before sant bhindrawale comes back (of course u have to be ready to have what u say debated, contridicted etc

And Javenmard can u tell us about the Sant ji that u say is back.........

phul chuk maf of this againi

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'Also dhan96Crore can you tell us of the certain things that had to happen on earth before sant bhindrawale comes back (of course u have to be ready to have what u say debated, contridicted etc '

Dont worry about what is going to happen as everything will be done with dasam pitas kirpa, now is the time to do as much bagti as possible, everything can be found out through bagti.

'And Javenmard can u tell us about the Sant ji that u say is back......... '

Javanmard is very bad at being chalaak, he does not know when to submit even though the truth keeps slapping him in the face, dont believe half the things he says.

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