? To Guru Da Sikh

[shaheediyan]

Lets tidy up this Evangelists ominpresence over the forum - and as he is so knowledgable - lets focus on his gyaan and ask him relevant questions rather than allowing him to curse every post he reads. It will also allow us to understand exactly where he stands in terms of beliefs, making for a better discussion, here are just a few basic things to get us started:

Q1 - What was/is the need for Khalsa and for Singh?

Q2 - Have you read any purtatan rehitnamai, if so which ones, what are your thoughts on these?

Q3 - Is there any source of Sikh ithihaas you can recommend to us which is free from manipulation - or should we discount all Sikh ithihaas?

Q4 - Where did Singhs receive the ferocity they displayed on the battlefield as documented by their enemies, the Sri Guru Granth Sahib?

Q5 - Do you believe in the SGPC/Panthic rehit maryada? If not, what do you suggest should bind the large part of the Panth together?

Q6 - Do you believe any of Sri Dasam Guru Darbar is Gurbani? If so, which parts?

Q7 - Do you understand the difference between secularism and spiritualism?

Q8 - Could you explain to us the concept of Miri Piri and Shakti Bhakti.

Q9 - Do you believe in the institution of Khande da Amrit and the events of 1699?

Q10 - Why did Guru Gobind Singh Ji Sache Patshah create the Panj Pyare, what purpose/role did/do they serve?

Q11 - What are your thoughts on Mul Mantar and Gurmantar?

Q12 - Do you accept the writings of Bhai Gurdas Ji as cannonical?

Q13 - What role does kirtan play in 'the way of the Sikh'?

Q14 - Are you aware of the roles the Nirmalai, Udasis, Nihangs, Rababis, Dhadis etc have played in Sikh history - is not a coincidence that these and many other unique traditions all agree on the very things that you and Afghana challenge?

Are you even familiar with Prof Sahib Singhs opions on the above issues?

Dhanvaad Jeeo.

[Guest]

great thread, i will look fwd to the answers from him and look fwd for good spirited debate from both sides.

[Mithar]

You guys still don't get it? These are Kala Afghanists! Their views have been proven false all over the Internet and in India. Yet they will still not change their views. They are not here have a useful healthy debate as brothers. For them we are enemies, there is no brotherly love between them and us. As Kalyug as pointed out, even if their views are defeated, they will disappear for a while and return. They will keep returning until they attract new recruits. Most Sikhs, whether they are traditional Singh Sabhiyas, AKJ, Sampradayak, Nihangs etc have the same core beliefs and they all base their beliefs based is Naam Simran, Bhagti. These people do not even believe in Naam Simran on the Gurmantra which sets them apart from all other Sikhs. When our middle ground is not the same, what is left to debate with them???

Instead of wasting 1 or 2 hours writing long replies to them daily, just spend that 1 or 2 hours on Naam Simran. That is time worth spent. Trust me, I know from experience that you cannot convince these people. These Kala Afghanists are like the Borg, they will not quit until they assimilate you.

[Kaljug]

You guys still don't get it? These are Kala Afghanists! Their views have been proven false all over the Internet and in India. Yet they will still not change their views. They are not here have a useful healthy debate as brothers. For them we are enemies, there is no brotherly love between them and us. As Kalyug as pointed out, even if their views are defeated, they will disappear for a while and return. They will keep returning until they attract new recruits. Most Sikhs, whether they are traditional Singh Sabhiyas, AKJ, Sampradayak, Nihangs etc have the same core beliefs and they all base their beliefs based is Naam Simran, Bhagti. These people do not even believe in Naam Simran on the Gurmantra which sets them apart from all other Sikhs. When our middle ground is not the same, what is left to debate with them???

Instead of wasting 1 or 2 hours writing long replies to them daily, just spend that 1 or 2 hours on Naam Simran. That is time worth spent. Trust me, I know from experience that you cannot convince these people. These Kala Afghanists are like the Borg, they will not quit until they assimilate you.

LOL

Just let them learn by spending a few months of arguing with the blockhead and attempting to read the long-winded word-salad that these people think constitutes an argument.

I don't know why it is, but none of these Kala-Aghanis seem to be able to make a point without writing an 84 lakh word essay and using 108,000 words that are either obsolete or completely unnecessary. It's as if some poor fool has been forced to type randomly selected words from a 1920's English dictionary while sitting on the loo and trying to pass the remains of last night's extra-mirchi vindaloo.

I just wonder if the sangat here will try to reinvent the wheel and invite debate from the Ram Raiyas, Dhir Malias, and maybe the Naths and Siddhas too. Hell, why not get some kurimars in on this too?

Regards,

K.

[Parchand]

These Kala Afghanists are like the Borg, they will not quit until they assimilate you.

[Guru da Sikh]

Lets tidy up this Evangelists ominpresence over the forum - and as he is so knowledgable - lets focus on his gyaan and ask him relevant questions rather than allowing him to curse every post he reads. It will also allow us to understand exactly where he stands in terms of beliefs, making for a better discussion, here are just a few basic things to get us started:

Q1 - What was/is the need for Khalsa and for Singh?

A1 - Khalsa word has been used by both Bhagat Kabeer ji (SGGS Page 655) reads khu kbIr jn Bey Kwlsy pRym Bgiq ijh jwnI ]4]3] kahu kabeer jan bheae khaalasae praem bhagath jih jaanee ||4||3|| Says Kabeer, those humble people become pure - they become Khalsa - who know the Lord's loving devotional worship. ||4||3||. There is also hand written Hukamnama from Guru Teg Bahadur Sahib ji where he uses the designation Khalsa for his Sikhs.

So Khalsa's foundation has been laid by Bhagat bani and from Guru Nanak Dev ji. It took nearly 230 years to FINISH this beautiful creation we call Khalsa. Khalsa was created to proagate Humanity as God intended and is preached in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, to protect the helpless and help the needy and to show a straight forward way to meet God. Khalsa is the intitution while Singh is the individual member of this most wonderful and unique and everlasting institution.

Q2 - Have you read any purtatan rehitnamai, if so which ones, what are your thoughts on these?

A2 - I have read purtatan rehitnamai book by Piara Singh Padam ji. But when I read his book called Dasam Granth Darshan, and where he states that the Chritar about Bibi Anoop Kaur is Guru Gobind Singh ji`s autobiography, I lost all respect for him. I believe that these purtatan rehitnamai are condesned versions of Sikh teachings prepared by Sikhs of the time under very diffcult times when they were hunted down and executed in large numbers, and they did not have the time to read Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, like we do today. However, I believe that complete Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is the ULTIMATE REHATNAMA of all Sikhs because it is complete and does not have any body else`s views except my Satguru`s. So when in doubt about the validity of any other sources I always ask Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

Q3 - Is there any source of Sikh ithihaas you can recommend to us which is free from manipulation - or should we discount all Sikh ithihaas?

A3 - First, majority of the Sikh itihaas was never written by Sikhs themselves as first hand witnesses. I have read Ratan Singh Bhangu ji`s writings where he himself admits that it is what he heard from his forefathers. On top of that, none of his writings or any other Sikh literature has ever been protected by Sikhs like they protected Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Here again, issues like Gur Gaddi Meryada, and some historical scenes are decsribed in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji itself.

Lets look at 1984 Ghalughara. I had attended Baba Jarnail Singh ji`s diwans, was there in Punjab at that time. Was very close to Bhai Gurjeet Singh ji (convenor of All India Sikh Student Federation who was engaged to Baba ji`s niece in village Rode and was personal bodygaurd of Baba ji). He mananged to escape on the last day to Pakistan, after Baba ji took Shahidi, and when came back to Punjab carried out over dozen operations near Moga. Was eventually cuaght and killed in a fake encounter. I was also close to Bhai Harbhajan Singh Mand (one of the Nine Member Pathic Committee). Faith dealt him the same card. The day he was picked up by CID from Moga bus stand , I got a call from Moga to here in Canada, but nothing we could do. He was `executed`the next day. POINT here is that I have seen lot first hand. Now when I read this ONLY 25 year old Itihaas, I am shocked at the various versions printed out by various so called `Sikh Intellectuals`despite the fact majority of this is documented in Video & Audio. So how can we be sure that everything we read as Sikh Itihaas is totally true. SO the only way is to test aginst Gurmat. I it passes the Gurmat test then accept it. I don`t think there is any single source of sikh historical reference that has not been attacked by Anti-Sikh coalition.

Q4 - Where did Singhs receive the ferocity they displayed on the battlefield as documented by their enemies, the Sri Guru Granth Sahib?

A4 - Dasam Granth supporters will have you believe that this comes from Dasam Granth. Well that is NOT the case. Remember MoolMantar. Nirbhau & Nirvair. Well when you follow Gurbani`s teachings in your daily life, you are enlightened with Guru`s Gyan. This starts to remove the curtain of ego that exists between you and God, who lives in your heart. Once you adopt Gurbani teachings then you start to become like God himself, because now both of you have the same qualities. You learn to live life in his Hukam. When you start to become like God (Nirmal), you become Nirbhau. Hence the quality of fearlessness, whhich is the basis of bravery.

Remember Guru ji says (Page 1105): salok kabeer || gagan dhamaamaa baajiou pariou neesaanai ghaao || khaeth j maa(n)ddiou sooramaa ab joojhan ko dhaao ||1|| sooraa so pehichaaneeai j larai dheen kae haeth || purajaa purajaa katt marai kabehoo n shhaaddai khaeth ||2||2||

Remember Guru ji says (Page 1410): jo tho praem khaelan kaa chaao ||sir dhhar thalee galee maeree aao ||eith maarag pair dhhareejai ||sir dheejai kaan n keejai ||20||

Remember, if you follow the standard Dasam Granthi template that Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji makes you a Saint, and Dasam Granh makes you a Soldier, then may be EXPLAIN to me the following;

a) Wars that Guru Hargobind Singh ji fought

Shahidi that Guru Arjan Dev ji took

c) Bhai Mati Daas, Bhai Sati Daas, Bhai Dyala ji, and Guru Teg Bahadur ji`s shaheedi took place before this so called Dasam Granth came into being.

Q5 - Do you believe in the SGPC/Panthic rehit maryada? If not, what do you suggest should bind the large part of the Panth together?

A5 - Before I answer this question have a bird`s eye view on the Sikh History just prior to its acceptance. Sikh Gurudwaras were under Masand, Mahants, Nirmalay & Udasey, including Darbar Sahib, Amritsar. May be you heard about the Singh Sabha Lehar, that liberated these Gurudwaras from these anti-Sikh coalition by paying with their lives starting in early 1900s. Those Masand, Mahants, Nirmalay & Udasey, are the same people that prevented Guru Teg Bahadur Sahib ji from entering Darbar Sahib, Amritsar and also had installed Hindu Idols in eight different places in Darbar Sahib Parkarma. They were literally following Hindu Brahmin`s Meryada (hence the phrase Bipran ki Reet), which is still being carried out exactly the same way at Takhat Hazoor Sahib. Anyway, a code of conduct had to be assembled in order to install Sikhi Rehat Meryada. But the Sikh scholars faced lots of resistance from people who were affected by this Bipran (Brahmin) ki Reet (Meryada) and were influential enough to NOT allow a complete implementation of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji`s teachings as the Sikh Rehat Meryada. It is due to this haggling that it took nearly 14 years to come up with a single booklet less than 100 pages in size. Obviously we still have the flaws. For example, look at the word `Sanskar`to describe the rehatmeryada at Birth, Naming, Baptism, Marriage, and Death. Yet the word which is more closely related with the Brahmins in Banaras does NOT APPEAR EVEN ONCE in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

So I follow Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji`s teachings as my complete Sikh Rehat Meryada.

Q6 - Do you believe any of Sri Dasam Guru Darbar is Gurbani? If so, which parts?

A7 - I believe, when we do Ardass we ask for something very special and that is `Bibek Daan`meaning an intellect to decide wrong from right. Guru ji himself prays for us on page (641) haar pariou suaamee kai dhuaarai dheejai budhh bibaekaa || rehaao || I have collapsed, exhausted, at the Door of my Lord Master; I pray that He may grant me a discerning intellect. ||Pause||. Hence, we should perform Gurmat`s litmus test on every word that is written in this so called Dasam Granth. What ever tests true, should be separated and complied into a True Dasam Granth. Rest should be filtered. I have read all of this literature and performing the same test myself and based on that believe with cetainty that Chritro Pakhyan, Chaubis Avtaar, Chandi Chritar, Hekaytaan, Bachitaar Natak could NEVER have been written by Guru Gobind Singh ji. Rest Iam working on one line at a time.

Q7 - Do you understand the difference between secularism and spiritualism?

A7 - Lets define them first for those who don`t know what these words mean;

Spiritualism is a dualist metaphysical theory that there exist both physical matter and spirit.

Secularism is the assertion that governmental practices or institutions should exist separately from religion and/or religious beliefs.

Lets examine both of these in light of Gurmat: Spiritualism is certainly supported by Gurbani, as the concept of Mind and Body. According to Gurbani this body is created a place for the Soul (Mind) (man too jot saroop hain) to reside.

Secularism is accepted as per Gurmat, but in a slighlty modified way. In a traditional way, Political & Governmental institutions can use religion as a tool (that is what is being done by the current Akali Government in Punjab) to protect and implement their own agendas. However, in Sikhi, this concept is to have political and governmental institutions be dictated by the Gurmat Rehat Meryada of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Hence the concept of Miri & Piri. You noticed that Akal Takhat is located outside the access gate (Darshani Deori) to Harmandir Sahib ji. So that the Jathedars (our religious leaders) and Sikh Political institutions (SGPC, Akali Party, AISSF, ISYF etc.) can SEEK GUIDANCE from Gurmat Gyan in Gurudwar. In order to hurt somebody in the house, your enemy has to enter through this door which is to be guided by these current appointees. Instead they have run inside the Harmandir and taken shleter for their own personal gains and agendas.

Q8 - Could you explain to us the concept of Miri Piri and Shakti Bhakti.

A8 - The fact that Gurbani teaches us to be a perfect living being without any flaws, only full of qualities described in Gurbani leads us to True Bhagati. Guru ji says in Jap ji: vin gun keethae bhagath n hoe || Bhagati is only complete when you acquire qualities (such as Sat, Santokh, daya, Daram, Dheeraj).

Like I said above, this makes you fearless and bravery (Shakti) arises out of this complete set of qualities. Hence, there is no need for any other Granth. Satgur Mera Poora - Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is COMPLETE.

Q9 - Do you believe in the institution of Khande da Amrit and the events of 1699?

A9 - Actually it is called Khande di Pahul. As to what happened inside the tent Guru ji set up to dress up the Panj Piaras is ONLY known to Guru ji. Rest is all speculation by Babas, so called Sants etc. The fact that Sikh was put through his final test of willing to sacrifice his or her life for Gurbani principles, and passed with flying colors and was awarded the Degree of Singh so that he or she could join the institution we know as Khalsa. Like I said before, I have taken Khande di Pahul and pray to God that it stays intact till my last breath !

Q10 - Why did Guru Gobind Singh Ji Sache Patshah create the Panj Pyare, what purpose/role did/do they serve?

A10 - So whenever it came time to implement any of Gurbani`s principles (Piri), these will guide the Khalsa Panth, provided they are True Panj Piare, meaning every single moment of their lives should be exactly as per Gurmat. But look at what so called Sikhs do today. Go running after so called Sant Mahan Purkh BrahmGiani Vidya Martand etc. as a SINGLE INDIVIDUAL. That is not Guru Gobind Singh ji`s teachings. If we were to get five Sikhs whose life is exactly as per Guru ji prescribed, then they can lead us out of this mess with the lantern of Gurmat in their hands !

Q11 - What are your thoughts on Mul Mantar and Gurmantar?

A11 - Moolmantar is from Ik Onkar to Gurparsad. Rest of the Gurbani is Gurmantar.

Mool means Root (Origin). The whole Universe originated from ONLY ONE GOD. He is completly described in this MoolMantar.

Gurmanatar - Gur means Guru and Mantar means Advise (salah). Gurbani is Guru`s Advise. That is why when we read Sohila Guru ji never gives us Hukam but REQUESTS us; Read Page 13 & 205; karo baena(n)thee sunahu maerae meethaa sa(n)th ttehal kee baelaa || Listen, my friends, I beg of you: now is the time to serve the Saints!

Q12 - Do you accept the writings of Bhai Gurdas Ji as cannonical?

A12 - They are helpful in understanding Gurbani, especially when the vaars elaborate on Hindu rituals and mythology. But they were NOT included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. I do NOT agree with the notion that these are called Key to Guru Granth Sahib ji. Because Satguru ji says (page 124) sathigur hathh ku(n)jee horath dhar khulai naahee gur poorai bhaag milaavaniaa ||7|| The key is in the hands of the True Guru; no one else can open this door. By perfect destiny, He is met. ||7|| Page (205) jis kaa grihu thin dheeaa thaalaa ku(n)jee gur soupaaee || And the one whose home it is, has locked it up, and given the key to the Guru. Page (1237) gur ku(n)jee paahoo nival man kot(h)aa than shhath || The key of the Guru opens the lock of attachment, in the house of the mind, under the roof of the body. Page (1237) again: naanak gur bin man kaa thaak n ougharrai avar n ku(n)jee hathh ||1|| O Nanak, without the Guru, the door of the mind cannot be opened. No one else holds the key in hand. ||1||

Q13 - What role does kirtan play in 'the way of the Sikh'?

A13 - Kirtan in my personal view is the MOST essential aspect of a Sikh`s daily life, provided you take the time to understand the Gurbani you are singing or listening to. I do it myself and my kids do it too. Without understanding Gurbani, it becomes mere entertainment for some. Once you understand a Gurbani Shabad, then sing it yourself in a raag, you will feel drenched in love for your Guru & God and that is when you end up saying Wah Guru !

Q14 - Are you aware of the roles the Nirmalai, Udasis, Nihangs, Rababis, Dhadis etc have played in Sikh history - is not a coincidence that these and many other unique traditions all agree on the very things that you and Afghana challenge?

A14 - Lets split this into Four parts:

Nirmalai - These are simply Brahmins from Banaris in Sikhi attire. Prime example one staunch supporter of so called Dasam Granth - SWAMI Brahm Dev (see him on youtube). These are the same people that Gurbani rejected & discarded their views of exploitation according to Vedas & Shastars. When they felt their `source of income (exploitation)` threatened by Gurmat Gyan for the ordinary folks, they decided to take matter into their own hands. They studied Guru Granth Sahib ji in detail, understood it and created this Dasam Granth as a parallel to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. It is the same policy today`s modern warfare system uses: Understand your enemy`s source of strength, attack and destroy it. The most common reason why most Sikhs fall prey to this plan is that very cleverly these Nirmalas used stanzas at the start and end of various chapters that will sometime look and sound similar to the ones from Gurbani. But when you read the complete chapters carefully, it becomes obvious that its nothing but a sugar coated poison pill. DON`T LET ME CONVINCE YOU BUT READ FOR YOURSELF THE WHOLE so called DASAM GRANTH and see for yourself.

Udaseye: - This sect was started by the two sons of Guru Nanak Dev ji out of resentment when Bhai Lehna ji was given Gurta Gaddi and called Guru Angand Dev ji. One of the sons became a hermit and started this sect. Since people had so much respect for Guru ji and by default respected these two sons. Even today you can see this sect perform acts exactly as the Jogis and Sadhus of Guru Nanak ji`s times that Guru ji himself rejected in Sidh Gost Bani. They started this sect as a challenge to Guru Nanak ji so how can their acts be considered as some sort of sewa to Sikhism. They are the enemy from within !

Dhadis - From Sixth Patshahi onwards, these Dhadis were there to remind the Sikhs of their History. Unfortunately, now a days they have also fallen prey by simply singing whatever is available to them without testing against Gurmat, since these people are not very interested in Gurmat Veechar.

Rababi - Well, what can I say. Kaljug mein Kirtan Pardhana. And the beauty of the Raags is manifold when a Rabab plays in a Kirtan darbar.

Are you even familiar with Prof Sahib Singhs opions on the above issues? YES

I have taken all this time to answer all of your questions. Lets see if you have the same patience and courage as I did to answer some of my questions;

1. Do you think Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is Complete Guru. Yes or No and explain based on Gurbani.

2. If not, then prove it.

3. If yes, then what is missing in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji that Guru Gonind Singh ji needed a separate Granth for Sikhs. Please explain.

4. Do you believe that Dasam Patshah recited the whole Bir in Damdama Sahib and was written by Bhai Mani Singh ji. If so why was not his own writings included in it. Its not that those writings were missing !

5. Do you believe that All Gurus were one soul (jot) and different bodies. Yes or No and explain based on Gurbani.

6. Post a LIST OF TEACHINGS that are missing from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji but are only available from so called Dasam Granth.

I will have about 8 more follow up questions once you have answered these. This way you & I will be on even terms, LOL !

I WILL LIKE TO HEAR FROM YOU DIRECTLY AND PLEASE NO INTERFERENCE FROM OTHERS SINCE WE ARE HAVING A VERY CIVILIZED DISCUSSION.

Bhul Chuk Maaf, Waheguru ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh

Dhanvaad Jeeo.

[Guru da Sikh]

great thread, i will look fwd to the answers from him and look fwd for good spirited debate from both sides.

To all reading Guru Da Sikh responses, please keep in mind that my responses are the ONLY ones being CENSORED !

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[Xylitol]

I regard Guru Granth Sahib ji as being the complete Guru of the Sikhs. It doesn't require any other granths for this completeness. However, this does not mean that Dasam Granth Sahib and Bhai Gurdass ji's Vaars are not exceptionally important in Sikh dharm.

1. I would like specific information from you on why you think Bhai Gurdass ji's vaars are flawed.

This is in contradiction to the belief held by the rest of the panth that the vaars are the keys to understanding Guru Granth Sahib ji. I would appreciate some hard historical evidence from your part.

2. There is no purataan source anywhere that indicates that a disagreement between Baba Sri Chand ji and Guru ji caused him to split from mainstream sikhs and begin the Udashi samprada. Purataan sources all show cordial and very respectful relations between him and the Gurus. the idea of discord between them is a product of the extreme anti-Hindu sentiment of some modern day scholars who reject anything that even remotely resembles Hindu practice (even if it is not). Please provide proof for this from purataan sources.

[Guru da Sikh]

LOL

Just let them learn by spending a few months of arguing with the blockhead and attempting to read the long-winded word-salad that these people think constitutes an argument.

I don't know why it is, but none of these Kala-Aghanis seem to be able to make a point without writing an 84 lakh word essay and using 108,000 words that are either obsolete or completely unnecessary. It's as if some poor fool has been forced to type randomly selected words from a 1920's English dictionary while sitting on the loo and trying to pass the remains of last night's extra-mirchi vindaloo.

I just wonder if the sangat here will try to reinvent the wheel and invite debate from the Ram Raiyas, Dhir Malias, and maybe the Naths and Siddhas too. Hell, why not get some kurimars in on this too?

Regards,

K.

You may know a few more fancy words in English, but what good are those words in your mind when every time you post a question or answer, there is nothing but disrespect for every Sikh Scholar or forum member.

A person who is either incapable or unwilling to answer other peoples’ genuine questions with answers based on Gurmat of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji loses the right to call himself a Sikh. That is what seems to me you want to do. Remember to be a Sikh is NOT a birthright but a right you earn when you follow Gurmat exactly as stated in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji !

[Guru da Sikh]

I regard Guru Granth Sahib ji as being the complete Guru of the Sikhs. It doesn't require any other granths for this completeness.

I posted an answer to every one of your questions, in the same order with detail and backed it with excerpts from Gurbani along with page numbers. Please follow the same pattern so that everybody can see what you have to present?

May be you don’t have the answers?

However, this does not mean that Dasam Granth Sahib and Bhai Gurdass ji's Vaars are not exceptionally important in Sikh dharm.

By making that statement, you will open up a can of worms for all Sikhs. When Guru ji clearly states that

sathiguroo binaa hor kachee hai baanee || Without the True Guru, other songs are false. Does that still leave you room for other literature to seek knowledge? You said Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is COMPLETE then what is it that you are looking for in literature outside of a COMPLETE SATGURU?

1. I would like specific information from you on why you think Bhai Gurdass ji's vaars are flawed.

This is in contradiction to the belief held by the rest of the panth that the vaars are the keys to understanding Guru Granth Sahib ji. I would appreciate some hard historical evidence from your part.

I hope you would stop trying to MISGUIDE the forum by accusing me of using or trying to associate words that are not listed on ANY of my postings. One such word you accused me of using is FLAWED, when referring to Bhai Gurdass ji’s vaars. I have clearly answered this question here and on the following link: http://www.sikhawareness.com//index.php?sh...11073&st=20

2. There is no purataan source anywhere that indicates that a disagreement between Baba Sri Chand ji and Guru ji caused him to split from mainstream sikhs and begin the Udashi samprada. Purataan sources all show cordial and very respectful relations between him and the Gurus. the idea of discord between them is a product of the extreme anti-Hindu sentiment of some modern day scholars who reject anything that even remotely resembles Hindu practice (even if it is not). Please provide proof for this from purataan sources.

With all due respect, it seems to me that you believe more in some unauthenticated historical records as proof rather than Gurbani. The fact that Guru Nanak did not see any of his own sons fit for the Gurta Gaddi speaks volumes. Since you believe in Sakhis you may have heard about the one where Baba Lakhmi Chand (Guru Nanak Dev ji’s son) visited Guru Ram Das ji and insulted him by stating that the current Guru had taken the Gurta Gaddi which belonged to Guru Nanak Dev ji’s sons by birth right. In the same sakhi, he is depicted making derogatory comments about Guru Ram Das ji’s long beard.

Remember even in Guru Nanak dev ji’s times, nearly 30 million (3 crore) people became followers of Sikhism. But Lakhmi Chand decided to follow the path of Udassie which was totally rejected and discarded by Guru Nanak Dev ji himself (read Sidh Gost Bani). Just think about the logic in your argument and the concept that a son who decides to do exactly the opposite to his father’s teachings, has CORDIAL relationship with his father ! WOW !

For your convenience I am posting the same questions again and please answer them in the same way I did and provide your PROOFS based on Gurbani alone.

I have taken all this time to answer all of your questions. Lets see if you have the same patience and courage as I did to answer some of my questions;

1. Do you think Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is Complete Guru. Yes or No and explain based on Gurbani.

2. If not, then prove it.

3. If yes, then what is missing in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji that Guru Gonind Singh ji needed a separate Granth for Sikhs. Please explain.

4. Do you believe that Dasam Patshah recited the whole Bir in Damdama Sahib and was written by Bhai Mani Singh ji. If so why was not his own writings included in it. Its not that those writings were missing !

5. Do you believe that All Gurus were one soul (jot) and different bodies. Yes or No and explain based on Gurbani.

6. Post a COMPLETE LIST OF TEACHINGS that are missing from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji but are only available from so called Dasam Granth.

I will have about 8 more follow up questions once you have answered these. This way you & I will be on even terms, LOL !

Bhul Chuk Maaf, Waheguru ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh

[Matheen]

Piara Singh Padam's translation is wrong in many places - he himself admits this. That is why it is best to rely on the original source.

The "Bipran ki reet" line is not from Sri Dasam Granth.

I'm a bit busy with the 1984 programs this weekend, but will reply in more detail later.

[Guest]

Guru da Sikh,

I am sure shaheediyan will reply back to your answers that you are given to him.

I want to comment on specific point you raised:

Q6 - Do you believe any of Sri Dasam Guru Darbar is Gurbani? If so, which parts?

A7 - I believe, when we do Ardass we ask for something very special and that is `Bibek Daan`meaning an intellect to decide wrong from right. Guru ji himself prays for us on page (641) haar pariou suaamee kai dhuaarai dheejai budhh bibaekaa || rehaao || I have collapsed, exhausted, at the Door of my Lord Master; I pray that He may grant me a discerning intellect. ||Pause||. Hence, we should perform Gurmat`s litmus test on every word that is written in this so called Dasam Granth. What ever tests true, should be separated and complied into a True Dasam Granth. Rest should be filtered. I have read all of this literature and performing the same test myself and based on that believe with cetainty that Chritro Pakhyan, Chaubis Avtaar, Chandi Chritar, Hekaytaan, Bachitaar Natak could NEVER have been written by Guru Gobind Singh ji. Rest Iam working on one line at a time.

Before debating on this topic, allow me to share some important methodological framework in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji. Most of the puratan samparda's believe that sri dasam granth is divided into three types of rachna:

1. Dhur Ki Bani Rachna of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji - This rachna is Dhur Ki bani is the banis came from core heart of dasam guru maharaj or came from full anubhav parkash of sri dasam guru maharaj. For eg.. Banis like- Jaap Sahib, Sri Akaal Ustat, Shabad Hazaare, Gyan parbodh, Bachitar Natak.

2. Sutantar Anubhadith Bani Rachna of Sri Dasam Granth sahib ji- This type of rachna is translations of previous compositions written by many tapavasi rishi, munis which in this care were translated by sri dasam patsah. For example- It's well known fact with in academics 405 tales in treh charitar are translated from previous various compositions, one granth being panch tantar, its also well known fact within in academics that many avtars from Chaubis Avtars compositions are directly translated by sri dasam patsah from Sri Bhagvad, Vishnu Puran.

3. Gur Asa Misrat Anubhadith Rachna of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji- This type of rachna means where one explain his/her own stance/beleif/thoughts/sidhant before compositions being translated kinda like commentary. In Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji, sri guru gobind singh ji had this type of rachna as well, specifically in sri dasam granth sahib for example- composition named chandi di var reflects this type of rachna. If one studies chandi di var- sri guru gobind singh ji has given gurmat sidhant in the first(bhaugati ki var) and second pauri of chandi di var. Both pauries is Salutations (Namaskar) to Sri Akaal Purkh. Then if one looks at the third pauri, its preface of chandi di var. Finally then fourth pauri of Chandi Di Var is composition directly translated in punjabi taken from 757 stanza of source "Markandai Puran" all the way to last stanza of markandai puratan.

Both the mindset (one being pro and other being against sri dasam granth sahib) have couple of things in common, they are both on one extreme or another. If on one is sitting on extreme of rejection, insecurity, hindu paranoia, ignorance then other is sitting on extreme of deception, insecurities, shying away from facts because of their personal hindu paranoia that they would end up judging guru's mat by their own one line translations without studying any theological/methodological frame work, socio-religious, figures and movement contexts. Their dangerous mindsets are very very common.. it's just one is anti dasam granth sahib by using that mindset, and other using the same mindset is pro sri dasam granth sahib ji.

By keeping that framework in mind, this debate should continue forward. No one is arguing over the fact that certain compositions of sri dasam granth are not written by sri guru gobind singh ji himself however they were included/translated/interpreted by sri guru gobind singh ji.

Lets discuss the possibility of sri guru gobind singh ji maharaj translating/interpreting previous compositions/rachna by previous gurmukhs/rishi/manuis and included them in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib addressing the socio-economic/panj vikars issues that human faces by giving examples, why can't this be possibility? Historically speaking this possibility clearly proven to us by Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji including writing of Bhagats (previous compositions) in to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji addressing that importance of spirituality- naam simran/seva.

Also to question, why not include everything in sri guru granth sahib maharaj? its bit silly.

Logically speaking not that i comparing but logically speaking isn't in the school there are different subject text books for different cateogory/subject? for eg- math, biology, chemistry, physics are categorized under "Science" and subjects like - philosophy, psychology, anthropology, religious studies are categorized under "Arts"

If worldly studies can be categorized, then why sikh scriptures can not be categorized for spirituality- sri guru granth sahib ji and to address socio-religious/ panj vikar issues- Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji.

Please refute above possibility cannot be possible.

[Guru da Sikh]

Piara Singh Padam's translation is wrong in many places - he himself admits this. That is why it is best to rely on the original source.

The "Bipran ki reet" line is not from Sri Dasam Granth.

Clarification: It is from Amrit Kirtan attributed to Dasam Patshah, Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji. And you consider every literature attributed to Dasam Patshah as Dasam Granth.

I'm a bit busy with the 1984 programs this weekend, but will reply in more detail later.

[Guru da Sikh]

Guru da Sikh,

I am sure shaheediyan will reply back to your answers that you are given to him.

I want to comment on specific point you raised:

Before debating on this topic, allow me to share some important methodological framework in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji. Most of the puratan samparda's believe that sri dasam granth is divided into three types of rachna:

1. Dhur Ki Bani Rachna of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji - This rachna is Dhur Ki bani is the banis came from core heart of dasam guru maharaj or came from full anubhav parkash of sri dasam guru maharaj. For eg.. Banis like- Jaap Sahib, Sri Akaal Ustat, Shabad Hazaare, Gyan parbodh, Bachitar Natak.

2. Sutantar Anubhadith Bani Rachna of Sri Dasam Granth sahib ji- This type of rachna is translations of previous compositions written by many tapavasi rishi, munis which in this care were translated by sri dasam patsah. For example- It's well known fact with in academics 405 tales in treh charitar are translated from previous various compositions, one granth being panch tantar, its also well known fact within in academics that many avtars from Chaubis Avtars compositions are directly translated by sri dasam patsah from Sri Bhagvad, Vishnu Puran.

3. Gur Asa Misrat Anubhadith Rachna of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji- This type of rachna means where one explain his/her own stance/beleif/thoughts/sidhant before compositions being translated kinda like commentary. In Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji, sri guru gobind singh ji had this type of rachna as well, specifically in sri dasam granth sahib for example- composition named chandi di var reflects this type of rachna. If one studies chandi di var- sri guru gobind singh ji has given gurmat sidhant in the first(bhaugati ki var) and second pauri of chandi di var. Both pauries is Salutations (Namaskar) to Sri Akaal Purkh. Then if one looks at the third pauri, its preface of chandi di var. Finally then fourth pauri of Chandi Di Var is composition directly translated in punjabi taken from 757 stanza of source "Markandai Puran" all the way to last stanza of markandai puratan.

Both the mindset (one being pro and other being against sri dasam granth sahib) have couple of things in common, they are both on one extreme or another. If on one is sitting on extreme of rejection, insecurity, hindu paranoia, ignorance then other is sitting on extreme of deception, insecurities, shying away from facts because of their personal hindu paranoia that they would end up judging guru's mat by their own one line translations without studying any theological/methodological frame work, socio-religious, figures and movement contexts. Their dangerous mindsets are very very common.. it's just one is anti dasam granth sahib by using that mindset, and other using the same mindset is pro sri dasam granth sahib ji.

By keeping that framework in mind, this debate should continue forward. No one is arguing over the fact that certain compositions of sri dasam granth are not written by sri guru gobind singh ji himself however including/translated/interpreted by sri guru gobind singh ji.

Lets discuss the possibility of sri guru gobind singh ji maharaj translating/interpreting previous compositions/rachna by previous gurmukhs/rishi/manuis and included them in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib addressing the socio-economic/panj vikars issues that human faces by giving examples, why can't this be possibility? Historically speaking this possibility clearly proven to us by Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji including writing of Bhagats (previous compositions) in to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji addressing that importance of spirituality- naam simran/seva.

Please refute above possibility cannot be possible.

Also to question, why not include everything in sri guru granth sahib maharaj? its bit silly.

Logically speaking not that i comparing but logically speaking isn't in the school there are different subject text books for different cateogory/subject? for eg- math, biology, chemistry, physics are categorized under "Science" and subjects like - philosophy, psychology, anthropology, religious studies are categorized under "Arts"

If worldly studies can be categorized, then why sikh scriptures can not be categorized for spirituality- sri guru granth sahib ji and to address socio-religious/ panj vikar issues- Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji.

I assumed that you were going to be some NEUTRAL arbitrator not a biased one as you just proved.

Now, why is it that no solid proper answers / explanations / Gurmat proofs are available for any one of your proposals. Discussion is when both parties have the right to ask questions and are obligated to receive answers. In this case, seems to me that your camp is only interested in questions and not providing answers. I am starting to wonder that majority of the forum members debating on this issue either have not read Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji or have only read a few pages of Dasam Granth

I will post a complete rebuttal to your points once your camp has provided satisfactory answers to my COMPLETE SET of questions posted.

[Guest]

I assumed that you were going to be some NEUTRAL arbitrator not a biased one as you just proved.

Now, why is it that no solid proper answers / explanations / Gurmat proofs are available for any one of your proposals. Discussion is when both parties have the right to ask questions and are obligated to receive answers. In this case, seems to me that your camp is only interested in questions and not providing answers. I am starting to wonder that majority of the forum members debating on this issue either have not read Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji or have only read a few pages of Dasam Granth

I will post a complete rebuttal to your points once your camp has provided satisfactory answers to my COMPLETE SET of questions posted.

Guru Da Sikh,

As i said shaheediyan will respond back to your answers. Is this debate between you and shaheediyan? can outsider like me or xylitol not allowed to answer your response or discuss this with you?

[valli singh]

.

 

[Xylitol]

A bit off topic, but my apologies to Guru da Sikh for misreading one of his posts. What I wrote was not meant as a personal attack, just happened to misread one of your posts.

[Xylitol]

I assumed that you were going to be some NEUTRAL arbitrator not a biased one as you just proved.

Now, why is it that no solid proper answers / explanations / Gurmat proofs are available for any one of your proposals. Discussion is when both parties have the right to ask questions and are obligated to receive answers. In this case, seems to me that your camp is only interested in questions and not providing answers. I am starting to wonder that majority of the forum members debating on this issue either have not read Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji or have only read a few pages of Dasam Granth

I will post a complete rebuttal to your points once your camp has provided satisfactory answers to my COMPLETE SET of questions posted.

It's completely ridicoulous for you to come on here, start attacking peoples beliefs without providing any foundation for it, and then think that you can be taken seriously if you don't respond to people's questions. You're wasting bandwidth.

[Kaljug]

Also, are you aware of the great respect that Sant Jarnail Singh ji Bhindranwale had for

Sri Dasam Granth Sahib?

He has said that anyone who does not accept Bachitar Natak is a nastik.

Fateh, veer ji!

Yes, but according to Kala-Afghanis, Sants do not exist so the greatest Sikh of the last century is actually a figment of the collective imagination of the Panth.

K.

[Guru da Sikh]

Guru da Sikh,

I am sure shaheediyan will reply back to your answers that you are given to him.

I want to comment on specific point you raised:

(I will continue to edit this posting instead of replying at different places, until I answer all of your questions)

Before debating on this topic, allow me to share some important methodological framework in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji. Most of the puratan samparda's believe that sri dasam granth is divided into three types of rachna:

Let me get this straight, you are going to present a lecture here based on somebody’s or some fictitious historical institutions’ BELIEFS without any historical & Gurbani evidence, and you want me to back up every claim with lots of proofs. And this is supposed to be a fair debate?

Do you believe that this methodology is / was also applicable to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji?

1. Dhur Ki Bani Rachna of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji - This rachna is Dhur Ki bani is the banis came from core heart of dasam guru maharaj or came from full anubhav parkash of sri dasam guru maharaj. For eg.. Banis like- Jaap Sahib, Sri Akaal Ustat, Shabad Hazaare, Gyan parbodh, Bachitar Natak.

2. Sutantar Anubhadith Bani Rachna of Sri Dasam Granth sahib ji- This type of rachna is translations of previous compositions written by many tapavasi rishi, munis which in this care were translated by sri dasam patsah. For example- It's well known fact with in academics 405 tales in treh charitar are translated from previous various compositions, one granth being panch tantar, its also well known fact within in academics that many avtars from Chaubis Avtars compositions are directly translated by sri dasam patsah from Sri Bhagvad, Vishnu Puran.

Click on the link below and go to Page 44 read the Chaupai for yourself

http://www.dasamgranth.org/institute/dasam/pdf/v1_3.pdf

Please read the translations of stanzas 3, 4, 6 & especially 7. Your claim that these Avtars are TRANSLATIONS not AUTO-BIOGRAPHICAL writings is TOTALLY annihilated here.

You can clearly read that it is attributed to Dasam Patshah Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji as his previous life experiences, which is anti Gurmat anyway.

Let me translate Stanza 7 for all readers;

Then the omnipresent Kal (Death) became kind to me, and considering me as His servant became drenched in love and helped me REMEMBER ALL OF MY INCARNATIONS.

While you are at it, read Stanza 5 to see its anti Gurmat inference. Let me translate for all readers;

Kal (Death) is our Father, Devi Kalika is our Mother, my Mind is my Guru and my Desires are my Wife.

Compare this against Gurmat from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji (page 167);

thoo(n) gur pithaa thoo(n)hai gur maathaa thoo(n) gur ba(n)dhhap maeraa sakhaa sakhaae ||3||

O Guru, You are my father. O Guru, You are my mother. O Guru, You are my relative, companion and friend. ||3||

(page 94);

maeraa maath pithaa gur sathigur pooraa gur jal mil kamal vigasai jeeo ||3||

The Guru, the Perfect True Guru, is my Mother and Father. Obtaining the Water of the Guru, the lotus of my heart blossoms forth. ||3||

3. Gur Asa Misrat Anubhadith Rachna of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji- This type of rachna means where one explain his/her own stance/beleif/thoughts/sidhant before compositions being translated kinda like commentary. In Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji, sri guru gobind singh ji had this type of rachna as well, specifically in sri dasam granth sahib for example- composition named chandi di var reflects this type of rachna. If one studies chandi di var- sri guru gobind singh ji has given gurmat sidhant in the first(bhaugati ki var) and second pauri of chandi di var. Both pauries is Salutations (Namaskar) to Sri Akaal Purkh. Then if one looks at the third pauri, its preface of chandi di var. Finally then fourth pauri of Chandi Di Var is composition directly translated in punjabi taken from 757 stanza of source "Markandai Puran" all the way to last stanza of markandai puratan.

Both the mindset (one being pro and other being against sri dasam granth sahib) have couple of things in common, they are both on one extreme or another. If on one is sitting on extreme of rejection, insecurity, hindu paranoia, ignorance then other is sitting on extreme of deception, insecurities, shying away from facts because of their personal hindu paranoia that they would end up judging guru's mat by their own one line translations without studying any theological/methodological frame work, socio-religious, figures and movement contexts. Their dangerous mindsets are very very common.. it's just one is anti dasam granth sahib by using that mindset, and other using the same mindset is pro sri dasam granth sahib ji.

By keeping that framework in mind, this debate should continue forward. No one is arguing over the fact that certain compositions of sri dasam granth are not written by sri guru gobind singh ji himself however they were included/translated/interpreted.

Lets discuss the possibility of sri guru gobind singh ji maharaj translating/interpreting previous compositions/rachna by previous gurmukhs/rishi/manuis and included them in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib addressing the socio-economic/panj vikars issues that human faces by giving examples, why can't this be possibility? Historically speaking this possibility clearly proven to us by Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji including writing of Bhagats (previous compositions) in to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji addressing that importance of spirituality- naam simran/seva.

Also to question, why not include everything in sri guru granth sahib maharaj? its bit silly.

Logically speaking not that i comparing but logically speaking isn't in the school there are different subject text books for different cateogory/subject? for eg- math, biology, chemistry, physics are categorized under "Science" and subjects like - philosophy, psychology, anthropology, religious studies are categorized under "Arts"

If worldly studies can be categorized, then why sikh scriptures can not be categorized for spirituality- sri guru granth sahib ji and to address socio-religious/ panj vikar issues- Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji.

Please refute above possibility cannot be possible.

[Guru da Sikh]

To expand on that,

First of all of course Sri Guru Granth Sahib is complete and is the Living Guru of the Sikhs

that is not being disputed, it is a very crafty stratagem of anti-Dasam Granth propagandists

to imply that respecting Sri Dasam Granth constitutes some sort of insidious disrespect to

the position of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji,

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is a Shant Ras Granth from which one can contain the Essence of Peace

Dasam Guru Darbar and Sarbloh Guru Darbar are Bir Ras Granths meaning they contain the Essence

of the Warrior Spirit and can impart the same to the reader/listener,

so where is the contradiction or disrespect?

The Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa of the 1700's and 1800's acting as Guru Panth

formally gave the highest status to Dasam Guru Darbar and Sarbloh Guru Darbar

which is why they are so respected,

being that you have so far expressed nothing but contemptible vitriole for

Nihang Singhs it would be instructive if you read Prachin Panth Prakash,

Gurbilas Patshiah Dasvin and Suraj Prakash Granth

to fully understand the contributions of Nihang Singhs to this Panth because

if they hadn't existed and sacrificed everything we would not have survived as a religion

to be here today.

Also, are you aware of the great respect that Sant Jarnail Singh ji Bhindranwale had for

Sri Dasam Granth Sahib?

He has said that anyone who does not accept Bachitar Natak is a nastik.

I respect Baba Jarnail Singh ji because he was able to motivate Sikh masses to rise up against the discrimination and disrespect of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. He is to be respected as a great leader, but NOT as some sort of Guru with the ultimate authority to decide what is right or wrong. We are all humans and therefore have faults.

What you have attributed to Baba Jarnail Singh ji were his PERSONAL views. That does not make it Panthic Rehat Meryada.

[Guru da Sikh]

Piara Singh Padam's translation is wrong in many places - he himself admits this. That is why it is best to rely on the original source.

Piara Singh Padam has NEVER admitted to any of his writings being wrong. Show me the written proof and / or news clipping, only then I will believe you. I have read some of his published correspondence with Kala Afgana, and I felt that Piara Singh’s response was simply hateful and condescending.

The "Bipran ki reet" line is not from Sri Dasam Granth.

I'm a bit busy with the 1984 programs this weekend, but will reply in more detail later.

[Guest]

Guru Da Sikh

Before debating on this topic, allow me to share some important methodological framework in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji. Most of the puratan samparda's believe that sri dasam granth is divided into three types of rachna:

// You wrote:

Let me get this straight, you are going to present a lecture here based on somebody’s or some fictitious historical institutions’ BELIEFS without any historical & Gurbani evidence, and you want me to back up every claim with lots of proofs. And this is supposed to be a fair debate?

Do you believe that this methodology is / was also applicable to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji?

Lets get to the basics, every religion have some sort of standards of academia same goes for sikhi, where one needs to study the vidya be it - vikayaran, bhav arths, uthanka, puratan sources to be authority to interpret sikh scriptures.

I am not sure what are the standards in missionary college but in academia of sikh dharam based on puratan scholarly tradition- sri dasam granth sahib is divided into three types of rachnas. To say sikh scriptures have only one rachna is bit silly as its proven wrong in gurbani itself when one studies sri guru granth sahib with open mind. Sri Guru granth sahib is divided in two types of rachna- Dhur Ki Bani Rachna mukhvak Guru Sahiban, Sutantar Anubhadith Bani Rachna/ Dhur Ki bani mukhvakh by bhagat sahiban.

Now that been clarified. I must ask again please respond to my post below which you overlooked in my original post, i ll bold it for you again. Thanks for responding on chaubias avtar, i ll respond back to you shortly on that.

By keeping that framework in mind, this debate should continue forward. No one is arguing over the fact that certain compositions of sri dasam granth are not written by sri guru gobind singh ji himself however they were included/translated/interpreted.

Lets discuss the possibility of sri guru gobind singh ji maharaj including or translating or nterpreting previous compositions/rachna by previous gurmukhs/rishi/manuis and included them in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib addressing the socio-economic/panj vikars issues that human faces by giving examples, why can't this be possibility? Historically speaking this possibility has been clearly proven to us by Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji including writing of Bhagats (previous compositions) in to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji addressing that importance of spirituality- naam simran/seva.

Also to question, why not include everything in sri guru granth sahib maharaj? its bit silly.

Logically speaking not that i comparing but logically speaking isn't in the school there are different subject text books for different cateogory/subject? for eg- math, biology, chemistry, physics are categorized under "Science" and subjects like - philosophy, psychology, anthropology, religious studies are categorized under "Arts"

If worldly studies can be categorized, then why sikh scriptures can not be categorized for spirituality- sri guru granth sahib ji and to address socio-religious/ panj vikar issues- Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji.

[shaheediyan]

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਹੈ ਜਪਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਖੋਈ ।

ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਏ ਆਪਿ ਹੈ ਗੁਣ ਗੁਣੀ ਪਰੋਈ ॥੨॥

Bhai Gurdas Ji.

Who do we believe with regards to what Gurmantra means? do we believe you or do we belive the 1st Sikh theologian/academic, original scribe of Gurbani and maternal uncle of 5th Master, alongside all facets of Khalsa Panth (old and new) and even your Panj Pyare?

Thanks for answering my questions. This thread is entitled "? To Guru Da Sikh", so in true Sikh Awareness fashion, lets stick to the topic. I lost all my original responses and am knackered now, so am going to respond one by one over the next few days, no rush!

Q1/4 - What was/is the need for Khalsa and for Singh?

Singh seems a random name to choose to membership into the Khalsa... were there not hukumnamai addressed to Khalsai after 1699 who were not Singhs...

Singh means 'Lion'. As a reponse from 10th Master to Jait Rams warning to them not to visit Nanded and Warrior Bairaagi Madho Das, Giani Gian Singh writes in Tvarikh Guru Khalsa "You are clean shaven, shorn-haired vegetarian ascetics who eat pulse seed and millet. We are Singhs who bare uncut hair and weapons. We hunt and eat, and have the mindset of Lions. Even if before I had no plan of visiting him, now I will".

The name Singh has a little more significance than you have made out. Nihang Singhs have always included Chandi di Vaar in their NITNEM to raise awareness of the realities of war and to invoke bir rasa.

The ferocity of Singhs has been described by Qazi Nur Muhammed thus:

"Do not call the dogs (the Sikhs) dogs, because they are lions (and) are courageous like lions in the battlefield. How can a hero, who roars like a lion be called a dog? (Moreover) like lions they spread terror in the field of battle. If you wish to learn the art of war, come face to face with them in the battlefield. They will demonstrate it (art of war) to you in such a way that one and all will shower praise on them."

Where in Sri Guru Granth Sahib does this ferocity come from? Where in Sri Guru Granth Sahib does Yudh Vidya come from?

Your example re Guru Arjun Dev Ji not having access to Dasam Bani is like saying Guru Nanak Dev Ji did not have to Aad Guru? It makes no sense - Guru Sahiban were one Jagdi Jyot. Sri Guru Granth Sahib and Sri Dasam Granth Sahib were left by 10th Master to give wisdom, inspiration and courage in written form. Guru Hargobind Sahib started dhadi tradition to invoke Bir Rasa - there is a strong connection between dhadis of old and Sri Dasam Granth Sahib - Nihang Dhadis still trace origins of dhadis through Sri Dasam Granth Sahib. Thats a whole different subject. Guru Arjun Dev Ji had already started preparations for onset of Akaal Sena.

Q2/3 - Have you read any purtatan rehitnamai, if so which ones, what are your thoughts on these?

You loose respect for Piara Singh because of his views on Dasam Bani, yet you promote the views of an apostate and alleged/proven sexual predator?

Where in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does it tell you to where 5 kakaar, to take Khande de 'Pahul', to do NITNEM of 5 baniyan including 3 from Sri Dasam Granth Sahib, to do rehraas which includes Benti Chaupai?

Ithihaas is our evidence of Sikh jeevan (outward), the rvaaj yo follow as Sikh are taken from ithihaas, what test via Gurbani can you do for these?

Thats all for now.

Ta.

[Guru da Sikh]

Guru Da Sikh

Lets get to the basics, every religion have some sort of standards of academia same goes for sikhi, where one needs to study the vidya be it - vikayaran, bhav arths, uthanka, puratan sources to be authority to interpret sikh scriptures.

I am not sure what are the standards in missionary college but in academia of sikh dharam based on puratan scholarly tradition- sri dasam granth sahib is divided into three types of rachnas. To say sikh scriptures have only one rachna is bit silly as its proven wrong in gurbani itself when one studies sri guru granth sahib with open mind. Sri Guru granth sahib is divided in two types of rachna- Dhur Ki Bani Rachna mukhvak Guru Sahiban, Sutantar Anubhadith Bani Rachna/ Dhur Ki bani mukhvakh by bhagat sahiban.

Now that been clarified. I must ask again please respond to my post below which you overlooked in my original post, i ll bold it for you again. Thanks for responding on chaubias avtar, i ll respond back to you shortly on that.

By keeping that framework in mind, this debate should continue forward. No one is arguing over the fact that certain compositions of sri dasam granth are not written by sri guru gobind singh ji himself however they were included/translated/interpreted.

Lets discuss the possibility of sri guru gobind singh ji maharaj including or translating or nterpreting previous compositions/rachna by previous gurmukhs/rishi/manuis and included them in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib addressing the socio-economic/panj vikars issues that human faces by giving examples, why can't this be possibility? Historically speaking this possibility has been clearly proven to us by Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji including writing of Bhagats (previous compositions) in to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji addressing that importance of spirituality- naam simran/seva.

Also to question, why not include everything in sri guru granth sahib maharaj? its bit silly.

Logically speaking not that i comparing but logically speaking isn't in the school there are different subject text books for different cateogory/subject? for eg- math, biology, chemistry, physics are categorized under "Science" and subjects like - philosophy, psychology, anthropology, religious studies are categorized under "Arts"

If worldly studies can be categorized, then why sikh scriptures can not be categorized for spirituality- sri guru granth sahib ji and to address socio-religious/ panj vikar issues- Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji.

You are implying, like various Pro Dasam Granth members, that Sri Guru Granth Sahib is incomplete because it does NOT address the Panj Vikar issue and is supposedly addressed only in Dasam Granth. I have listed just a few examples from Gurbani alone that have all of these Panj Vikars listed clearly. SO, again explain to sangat what is the need for another Granth?

Page (366 –Raag Assa): kaam krodhh lobh mohu abhimaan vadhhaaeae || Sexual desire, anger, greed, emotional attachment and self-conceit have increased.

Page (614 –Raag Sorath): kaam krodhh lobh moh abhimaanaa thaa mehi sukh nehee paaeeai ||

In sexual desire, anger, greed, emotional attachment and self-conceit, peace is not to be found.

Page (1118): kaam krodhh lobh mohu abhimaan bikhai ras ein sa(n)gath thae thoo rahu rae ||

Sexual desire, anger, greed, attachment, egotism and corrupt pleasures - stay away from these.

Page (1396): kaam krodhh lobh moh apath pa(n)ch dhooth bikha(n)ddiou ||

He has cut down the five demons of unfulfilled sexual desire, unresolved anger, unsatisfied greed, emotional attachment and self-conceit.

Regarding Religious issues, look at the shabad below where Guru ji himself is saying that he has established Dharamsal, and what do you think is taught in that Dharamsal: DHARAM. By the way if you read this shabad analysis in detail you will see it also addresses the Panj Vikar issue in its first part.

Page (73): mai badhhee sach dhharam saal hai ||

I have established the Temple of Truth

Page (84): har kee vaddiaaee vaddee hai jaa niaao hai dhharam kaa ||

Great is the Greatness of the Lord; His Justice is totally Righteous.

Page (138): jo dhharam kamaavai this dhharam naao hovai paap kamaanai paapee jaaneeai ||

One who lives righteously is known as righteous; one who commits sins is known as a sinner.

Page (147): naanak gur sa(n)thokh rukh dhharam ful fal giaan ||

O Nanak, the Guru is the tree of contentment, with flowers of faith, and fruits of spiritual wisdom.

I am still bewildered at your lame explanation for the need of other Granths, especially Dasam Granth.

Page (1374): kabeeraa jehaa giaan theh dhharam hai jehaa jhoot(h) theh paap ||

Kabeer, where there is spiritual wisdom, there is righteousness and Dharma. Where there is falsehood, there is sin.