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Differences In Siddhant Between Advaita Adi Shankaraharya And Sikhi


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Happy New Year to all fellow brothers and sisters on the forum.

This subject may have been discussed on earlier posts, however on initial search I did not find the information.

Traditional schools of thought in Advaita Vedanta and Gurmat as I interpret share very similar views so my question is, what the particular Siddhant of Gurmat is in relation to Adi Shankara, and the core differences that Gurmat establishes and teaches.

I appreciate the advice of all the learned members on this forum.

Fateh.

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Gurmat is not *RAW* form of advait vedanta which is (gyan of self-atma, to see this whole jagat mithiya) nor its *RAW* form of vaishav mat - raw bhagti nor its *RAW* form of shabad surat-yog vidhiya.

In Gurmat concept of creator residing in kudrat beauty in asa di var- loving/be memerized seeing the whole creation, sri akal ustat- creator residing in its creation and concept of whole world being mithiya/destructive, an illusion- shalok mahalla 9 by sri guru tegh bahudar ji are both blended together along with above- bhagti, gyan, shabad surat such is beauty of Gurmat..!!

i will try to explain more in detail later on and hopefully more learned members such tsingh, kam, mekchan jennat and many others can contribute to this very interesting thread as well.!!

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Look up Vishishtadvaita Vedanta (Qualified Advait). This is the line of Gurmat tradition that the Guru Sahibs and Gurus such as Ramanand and Kabir and before them Namdev and Trilochan are from. The Advaita Vedanta philosophy differs in that there is ultimately no distinction between the Atma and Parmatma/Ishvar. Whereas in Vishishtadvaita and Sikhism there is a difference until the Atma meets with Parmatma. Then it becomes one with Parmatma. This is the qualifier or the Vishisht portion.

One of the well known propnents of Advaita was Guru Shankara (Acharya is synonymous with Guru) and he taught that only through gyan of atma through going inward can we know our atma. And once we know our atma, we see that the Atma IS Parmatma. It is our lack of Gyan, our Avidya, that we do not see this and this causes Dukh. There is no separate Ishvar from us who we try to connect with. It is ultimately the supreme nameless reality, Brahman, which is perceived through our lack of Gyan as Atma-Ishvar, but really there is only Brahman.

One of the well known propnents of vishishtadvaita was Guru Ramanuja. His position is somewhat similar to the above. He taught that through loving worship of Ishvar ie Bhagati, the Atma can meet with Parmatma. There is an Ishvar that the Atma bows down to, pray to who responds to the Atma. And He by His love for the Atma (and vice versa) brings the Atma into Himself. The Atma is distinct from Parmatma as it lacks the Gyan and other characteristics that Ishvar has. Ishvar is Sarab Kala Samrath, Atma is not. There is a simultaneous sameness and difference between Atma and Ishvar.

Good intro to these philosophies by Nick Sutton

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BhagatSingh

Thanks for your opinions, I do agree there are views in relation to Vishistadvait that could be applied to Gurmat. However the majority of information (i.e Baba Thakur Singh Ji, Baba Jagjit Singh ji Harkhowal, Baba Isher Singh JI Rara Sahib to name a few), I have discovered seem to point towards Advait as the accepted traditional interpretation of the philosophical teaching within Gurmat.

The question was how Gurmat Advait Siddhant in relation to Vedanta Advaita holds, and what particular teachings and practices differentiate the two.

Your views and comments are appreciated and welcomed to continue this interesting debate.

Edited by Satgyan-pujari
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This is my personal experience and doesn't necessarily mean it is true. There is only one Truth: There is One God and we're HIS children (Our Soul/Atma is ansh of Paramatma) and there are various path to reach HIM. I love examples as it helps me to understand the concept easily.

  1. Let’s say there is a classic car in a parking lot. The car is badly damaged on one side, but looks like new on the other. Two people going through the parking lot, walk by the car, one on each side. One person’s point of view is from the bad side, one from the good. As they walk by, they each see the car, make a judgment, and form ‘clear’, solid beliefs about the condition of the car. Because of their limited viewpoints, they are each left with totally different beliefs about the car. And each person’s belief opposes and contradicts the others. They are both right, from their point of view. Yet if you could see the entire car from above from our point of view, they are both totally right and both totally wrong. The fact is that when you simultaneously grasp the two contradictory, yet true, beliefs, you actually have the greater truth about the car.
  2. Another good example is island: If we are on an island then we cannot see other world because we are totally cutoff and cannot see the other world.
  3. If a student of 6th standard (class) sits in class of PhD students and tries to grasp the topic, then he/she would not be able to understand the true concept. He has to undergo number of classes in order to be qualified to understand the topic in Ph.D class.

Just like the people viewing that car, the point of view of each individual reading the ancient texts, concept or any book, is going to be different, thus they will perceive it many different ways, thus it will be perceived differently than it really is, and differently than it was intended to be perceived. People will even go to war, because their personalized version of God is different than someone else’s, and of course, each side in the war always believes ‘God’ is on their side.

So, bottom line is untill we're not spiritually inclined to greater heights and our consciousness is on higher level; we're bound to see differences based upon our consciousness level but once we're One with God; there won't be any contradications. On a personal level: when I see a contradiction between one religion's view vs other religion's view; I try to tell my mind that there is something which I cannot see as my view is limited and because of Maya. So, just carry on your current path after-all God is One.

Forgive me if this reply seems to be unnecessary and not related to topic.

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All views and opinions are very welcome and helpful.

I would like to reiterate that the purpose of the discussion is to increase our knowledge of Gurmat Siddhant, by investigating the traditional philosophies and explanations so we may get a fuller picture of our great heritage.

This is done to reinforce our faith and make us stronger, whilst opening the buddhi to the deeper adyatamic truths contained within Gurmat.

The differences in Siddhant are debated so as to identify the necessity of the Guru's message and teachings, in order to clarify the doctrinal elements specific to our Marg within Sikhi. The purpose is a positive one, and not taken solely to argue contradictions or debate superiority of various traditions and religions.

GurFateh

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Satgyan Pujari,

I am not familiar with the teaching of those mahapurakh, I have only Guru Granth Sahib to look to. Do you have any of their katha related to the topic?

Das,

Just like the people viewing that car, the point of view of each individual reading the ancient texts, concept or any book, is going to be different, thus they will perceive it many different ways,

Would understanding those differing view points allow us to see the car more accurately?

Edited by BhagatSingh
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Look up Vishishtadvaita Vedanta (Qualified Advait). This is the line of Gurmat tradition that the Guru Sahibs and Gurus such as Ramanand and Kabir and before them Namdev and Trilochan are from. The Advaita Vedanta philosophy differs in that there is ultimately no distinction between the Atma and Parmatma/Ishvar. Whereas in Vishishtadvaita and Sikhism there is a difference until the Atma meets with Parmatma. Then it becomes one with Parmatma. This is the qualifier or the Vishisht portion.

One of the well known propnents of Advaita was Guru Shankara (Acharya is synonymous with Guru) and he taught that only through gyan of atma through going inward can we know our atma. And once we know our atma, we see that the Atma IS Parmatma. It is our lack of Gyan, our Avidya, that we do not see this and this causes Dukh. There is no separate Ishvar from us who we try to connect with. It is ultimately the supreme nameless reality, Brahman, which is perceived through our lack of Gyan as Atma-Ishvar, but really there is only Brahman.

One of the well known propnents of vishishtadvaita was Guru Ramanuja. His position is somewhat similar to the above. He taught that through loving worship of Ishvar ie Bhagati, the Atma can meet with Parmatma. There is an Ishvar that the Atma bows down to, pray to who responds to the Atma. And He by His love for the Atma (and vice versa) brings the Atma into Himself. The Atma is distinct from Parmatma as it lacks the Gyan and other characteristics that Ishvar has. Ishvar is Sarab Kala Samrath, Atma is not. There is a simultaneous sameness and difference between Atma and Ishvar.

Good intro to these philosophies by Nick Sutton

The question of how much of Gurmat is orginal has puzzled me. Reading Advait Vadanta clearly has many simlierties with Sikhi. Can anyone point to what are the difference of these two.

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The question of how much of Gurmat is orginal has puzzled me. Reading Advait Vadanta clearly has many simlierties with Sikhi. Can anyone point to what are the difference of these two.

Sikhi has a element of advaita (compelete non dualism between individual and vahiguroo) but its not raw form of advaita. Sikhi is pure sargun-nirgun marg. In sikhi, sargun is nirgun and nirgun is sargun, there is no difference whatsoever..In sikhi, sargun and nirgun are blended beautifully and splendidly. However, other mats always are either nirole sargun-vaishav or nirole nirgun- raw adi sankarcharya advaita.

I would say closest orders to Sikhi spirituality/Gurmat sidhant would be - sufism and as bhagat singh pointed out earlier- Vishishtaadvaita Vedanta( qualified advait).

This topic is interesting one, i will move this topic to topic of the month so it gets more exposure.

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  • 4 weeks later...

I would say closest orders to Sikhi spirituality/Gurmat sidhant would be - sufism

Sufism is Islamic with its theology and practices. And Islam is Dvait philosophy. There is nothing common between Allah and the believer. The believer follows the teachings laid out by Allah, the all-knowing because the believer cannot know better.

This is the opposite to Advait and Vishishtadvait where God and the individual can become synonymous. Gurus are regarded as incarnations of God and possess His knowledge. This is contradictory to Islamic Sufi teachings.

In sikhi, sargun and nirgun are blended

beautifully and splendidly. However, other mats always are either nirole

sargun-vaishav or nirole nirgun- raw adi sankarcharya advaita.

What do you mean?

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Very good topic, no learned scholars to answer the question however. Firstly you need to clearly state what are the tenets of Sikhism and Vedanta, only then can you compare them.

Vedanta is one of the 6 main schools of sanatn dharam

Core mantra is ahm brahm asmee - the jeev atmai is a part God

The path to God is four fold 1. bhakti yog 2. gyaan yog 3. karam yog. raaj yog

The term Vedanta means in Sanskrit the “conclusion” (anta) of the Vedas, the earliest sacred literature of India; it applies to the Upanishads, which were elaborations of the Vedas, and to the school that arose out of the “study” (mimamsa)
of the Upanishads. Thus, Vedanta is also referred to as Vedanta-Mimamsa (“Reflection on Vedanta”), Uttara-Mimamsa (“Reflection on the Latter Part of the Vedas”), and Brahma-Mimamsa (“Reflection on Brahman”).The three fundamental Vedanta texts are: the Upanishads (the most favoured being the longer and older ones such as the Brihadaranyaka, the
Chandogya, the Taittiriya, and the Katha); the Brahma-sutras (also called Vedanta-sutras), which are very brief, even one-word interpretations of the doctrine of the Upanishads; and the famous poetic dialogue, the Bhagavadgita
(“Song of the Lord”), which, because of its immense popularity, was drawn upon for support of the doctrines found in the Upanishads.

No single interpretation of the texts emerged, and several schools of Vedanta developed, differentiated by their conceptions of the nature of the relationship and the degree of identity between the eternal core of the individual self (atman) and the absolute (brahman). These range from the nondualism (Advaita) of the 8th-century philosopher Shankara to the theism Vishishtadvaita; literally “Qualified Nondualism”) of the 11th–12th-century thinker Ramanuja and the dualism (Dvaita) of the 13th-century thinker Madhva.

The Vedanta schools do, however, hold in common a number of beliefs; transmigration of the self (samsara) and the desirability of release from the cycle of rebirths; the authority of the Veda on the means of release; that brahman is both the material (upadana) and the instrumental (nimitta) cause of the world; and that the self (atman) is the agent of its own acts (karma) and therefore the recipient of the fruits, or consequences, of action (phala). All the Vedanta schools unanimously reject both the heterodox (nastika) philosophies of Buddhism and Jainism and the conclusions of the other orthodox (astika) schools (Nyaya, Vaisheshika, Samkhya, Yoga, and, to some extent, the Purva-Mimamsa).

Vedanta and the other 5 schools of thought only describe a particular part of God. However Sikhism is all in all ie complete in every way and incorporates all the different schools of sanatan dharm. The other difference i know of is that Gurbani emphasises union with God through shabad surat marg which is missing from sanatan dharam

Edited by singh598
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  • 3 months later...

Islam teaches that after death the soul must remain confined to the grave until jugement day, then it will either go to hell or heaven. Hinduism teaches that the soul must reincarnate and transmigrate. Sikhism teaches that the soul transmigrates moves on according to its desires (vashnas). Sant Gurbachan Singh Bindranvale Volume 15 (CD 15) SGGS Katha

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  • 3 months later...

This is by far one of the best questions posed on this forum ever.

It can only be answered by clear and concise comparison of the two philosophies sanatan and Sikhism.

Personally I can't see any difference between the two and would say that Sikhism adopts all the teachings of sanatan philosophy.

I suppose Brahmgiani stanza from Sukhmani Sahib would help.

L

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Personally I can't see any difference between the two and would say that Sikhism adopts all the teachings of sanatan philosophy.

I totally agree, sikhi blends bhagti marg, shabad surat marg, and gyan marg beautifully and splendidly.

I suppose Brahmgiani stanza from Sukhmani Sahib would help.

I totally agree in fact i recently came to understanding and beleif that tat nichor of gurmat is in 21st asthpadi of sukhmani sahib-

Watch these beautiful videos, they are totatly amazing 2 hrs long katha on 21st asthpadi- explaining tat...lot of sikhs read off 21st ashtpadi of sukhmani sahib with perception creation and destruction of this world by akaal purkh but in fact its much more deeper- one can find whole jewl of gurmat in it- as it also explains the nature of bhramgyani avastha- gyan parloa/turiya tit avastha- explains perception of enlighten individual:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQwuaKCFruI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2iwfg0G8RE
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N30 Singh could you do a detailed analysis of this particularly now that you are reading Vedanta from Bhagvan Ramana Maharishi. I guess this is your speciality

I have read some of those links you gave....they seem to long and incoherent. This is a deep topic and by no means easy.

What are the roohani teachings of Gurbani versus Sanatan. I suppose you would have to think about how you are going to structure you answer.

I have been deeply interested in this topic for some time but just lack the knowledge to answer it particularly of hinduism

Edited by PAL 07
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I consider maha kavi santokh singh ji, bhai vir singh ji, sant gurbachan singh bhindranwale among current famous nirmale, sevapanthi saints scholars/ mahapursh past and present as gurmat theologist.

Also what does soraj parkash granth and garab gazini teeka of japji sahib indicates? Does anyone want to dig up?

I will let actual scholars/theologians on forum such as tirath singh and kam to write proper analysis on this. I am not a scholar by any stretch more of khoji just like everyone else.

I still think gurmat is not raw form of advait vedanta - advait vedant positions which are aligned with advait position in gurmat comes in advance stage in gurmat but it does not start off with it as general speaking (not talking about exceptions) we start off with nine types of bhagti towards satguru, and slowly and in sehaj spontaneously move on upwards in sehaj (with naam simran and seva) towards advance stages

Its more close to sufism (their devotion towards murshid, qwalis talking about hide and seek of murshid jot at the end being inside rumi works) and vishiadvaita (their devotion/bhajan towards ishvar reminds me our concept our devotion towards our satgurus) . Even bhagvan ramana maharishi teaching is not raw form of vedanta- he talks about bhagti aspect (naam jaapa, seva of satguru) as sadhana for begineers, and also talks about bhagti aspect- within self enquiry to start off as he clearly mentioned in the video below- surrender your body, egoistic mind to satguru before self inquiry- who am i.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weXKuURMgMs

I will post more later.

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Ahh what a delight to see a picture of Sant Jee. He was of the highest level, but I am still so novice about understanding the science of brahmgian. For example if you watch the original documentary of Bhagvan Ramanmahirishi life, the stuff the you learn is very mind boggling such as the part where he emanicipates his mother by holding onto her heart and eyes.

For those that have not yet seen it recommended....YouTube Bhagvan Raman Maharishi The Sage Of Arunchala

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  • 8 months later...
  • 3 years later...

Hello!  It is my first Posting on this Forum ... 😉

I'd like to recommend to you the Lecture Videos by Swami Sarvapriyananda on Youtube.

He is a Swami in the Ramakrishna Mission and teaches Advaita Vedanta.

So this perfectly adds to this Thread (i guess you are still interested in this Topic)

For example this interesting Video:

The Divine Artist

or The Ultimate Truth

Open Secret

 

or Mahavakya (where also differences between Vishishtadvaita and Advaita are mentioned)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VolXmOBotWk

 

 

There are many more Videos by this Swami, all very interesting!  He can explain this very good ..

He also makes Monthly Question & Answer Videos where you can send in Questions per Email (or in Future directly in the Live Chat)

For example:

Maybe it is helpful for you! 

Would be nice if you could give me some feedback on the Videos. Thanks

 

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Recently when I was reading a shabad of Sant Ravi Das ji, it reminded me of this thread.

I think the philosophy in Sikhi is not Advait of Guru Adi Shankar ji, rather it is Vishisht Advait of Guru Ramanuj ji.

Vishisht Advait is a Qualified Advait.

Whereas Advait says that the Soul is God, they are the same. Vishist Advait agrees but says they are the same but they are also different.

 

This key difference is perfectly encapsulated in the shabad of Sant Ravi Das ji, Guru Granth Sahib, 93.

ਤੋਹੀ ਮੋਹੀ ਮੋਹੀ ਤੋਹੀ ਅੰਤਰੁ ਕੈਸਾ ॥ ਕਨਕ ਕਟਿਕ ਜਲ ਤਰੰਗ ਜੈਸਾ ॥੧॥
You, Me, Me, You, what is the difference? The difference is like Gold and Jewellery, like Water and Waves.

 

He continues -

ਜਉ ਪੈ ਹਮ ਨ ਪਾਪ ਕਰੰਤਾ ਅਹੇ ਅਨੰਤਾ ॥ ਪਤਿਤ ਪਾਵਨ ਨਾਮੁ ਕੈਸੇ ਹੁੰਤਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

If I did not commit sins, then how would you be known as the Pavit Pavan, the redeemer of sins.

 

Ravidas ji says – Hey Ram! You and I, we are different but one. I am the sinner and you redeem me. You reside in me; I am known through you, and you are known through me. Grant me this wisdom so that my body constantly worships you. Ravidas says, give me the company of those who have realized that You resides in all beings.

 

So Adi Shankar ji would ask  - ਤੋਹੀ ਮੋਹੀ ਮੋਹੀ ਤੋਹੀ ਅੰਤਰੁ ਕੈਸਾ ॥ You, Me, Me, You, what is the difference? He would stop there and say there is fundamentally no Real difference.

But Ramanuj ji would come in and say - ਕਨਕ ਕਟਿਕ ਜਲ ਤਰੰਗ ਜੈਸਾ ॥੧॥ The difference is like Gold and Jewellery, like Water and Waves. And that this is a Real difference.

 

 

Bhai Gurdas ji in his Vaar 1, 11th pauri, explains a possible pitfall that an Advaitist must be careful of -
 

ਸਿਆਮ ਵੇਦ ਕਉ ਸੋਧਿ ਕਰਿ ਮਥਿ ਵੇਦਾਂਤੁ ਬਿਆਸਿ ਸੁਣਾਇਆ।

Guru Vyas ji (also known Badarayan) recited Vedanta (sutras) after churning and researching the thought frame of the Sam Ved.

 

ਕਥਨੀ ਬਦਨੀ ਬਾਹਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਅਪਣਾ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਜਣਾਇਆ।

He described that the Self (Atma) is Supreme Self (Brahma) - Advait Philosophy.

 

ਨਦਰੀ ਕਿਸੈ ਨ ਲਿਆਵਈ ਹਉਮੈ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਇਆ।

He explained that the Supreme Self is invisible to everyone and the individual wanders around in its delusions of self conceit.

 

ਆਪੁ ਪੁਜਾਇ ਜਗਤਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਭਾਉ ਭਗਤਿ ਦਾ ਮਰਮੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ।

But by establishing the Self as Supreme Self, he ended up establishing one's own Limited Mind as worthy of worship, and this hindered him from true understanding.

- Because when you say that the Atma is Parmatma (which it is) then you might fall into the trap of thinking that your Limited Mind is Atma/Consciousness/Self.

- So you may end up worshipping the Limited Mind mistaking it for Atma/Parmatma (Consciousness/Supreme Consciousness).

- The Limited Mind is not Atma/Consciousness. But it is very easy to mistake the Limited Mind for atma/Consciousness.

- Consciousness is the source of the Limited Mind. This is why Limited Mind has difficulty accessing Consciousness, because it exists prior to it.

 

ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤਿ ਨ ਆਵੀ ਵੇਦਿ ਮਥਿ ਅਗਨੀ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਤਪਤਿ ਤਪਾਇਆ।

Churning of the Vedas could not obtain peace for him and he started scorching one and all in the heat of his Limited Identity of the Mind.

 

ਮਾਇਆ ਡੰਡ ਨ ਉਤੇਰੇ ਜਮ ਡੰਡੇ ਬਹੁ ਦੁਖਿ ਰੂਆਇਆ।

The rod of Maya, or Material Attachment, always hung over his head and he suffered extremely because of the constant fear of Yama, of death.

 

ਨਾਰਦਿ ਮੁਨਿ ਉਪਦੇਸਿਆ ਮਥਿ ਭਾਗਵਤ ਗੁਨਿ ਗੀਤ ਕਰਾਇਆ।

Having obtained knowledge from his Guru, Narad Muni ji, he recited Bhagvat Puran and sang about the qualities of God (In Bhagvat Puran, Vyas ji tells the qualities of Krishan ji).

 

ਬਿਨੁ ਸਰਨੀ ਨਹਿ ਕੋਇ ਤਰਾਇਆ ॥੧੧॥

Without surrender before the Guru none could get across (the world ocean).

So through his Guru Narad ji, Vyas ji, realized the Self/Supreme Self.

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