Does The 9Th Guru Profess To Being A Hindu?

[Amarjeet Singh_1737]

Prachin Panth Prakash mentions Banda Singh as being an Amritdhari. So does the Amarnamah. The latter manuscript is plausibly scribed by Dhahdi Nath Mall during the Guru's sojourn. The fact that the Tat Khalsa split with the Bandais indicates a Khalsa link of sorts devoid of any Hindu or Islamic influence. At a tie when a patriarchal Sikh identity was being formed, I am sure a non-amritdhari would have been the last candidate chosen as a chief elect for the Khalsa.

[chatanga1]

1. Banda was already known as Guru in Maharashtra and he commanded a large following. The Guru didnot want to enhance Banda's prestige as a religious leader of the Sikhs.

The Guru was above that. Anyone who thinks otherwise such as this ralhan is mistaken. Whatever Banda was, or whatever following he commanded, were of no use when he met Guru Ji.

3. By making him a regular Sikh, the Guru feared lest he might claim Guruship in course of time. Without baptism the Khalsa would not accept him as the Guru. This actually happened. Ratan Singh Bhangu and Santokh Singh write later on Banda declared himself Guru, and the Khalsa rejected his claim.They insisted on his getting baptised and taking meat diet.

Again another lie, Banda Bahadur made no claims to Guru-ship, it was his followers who elevated him to this position after his shaheedi.

6. There are no contemporary or near contemporary sources to establish the fact that Banda had been baptised. All sources quoted in support of this assertion are one hundered years or more later.

we can say the same for sources saying that he was never baptised the same way.

Karam Singh, the well known Sikh historian, declares that "although Banda had come within the Sikh fold ,he had no time for taking Amrit".

No time for taking amrit, thats a new one.

4. Had banda been baptised, he would have never changed the Guru's salutuion from Wahgurji ka Khalsa Wahguruji ki Fateh to Fateh Darshan.

This has no basis. there have been other instances of amritdharis making changes according to their own thinkng.

[Amarjeet Singh_1737]

The Guru was above that. Anyone who thinks otherwise such as this ralhan is mistaken. Whatever Banda was, or whatever following he commanded, were of no use when he met Guru Ji.

Again another lie, Banda Bahadur made no claims to Guru-ship, it was his followers who elevated him to this position after his shaheedi.

we can say the same for sources saying that he was never baptised the same way.

No time for taking amrit, thats a new one.

This has no basis. there have been other instances of amritdharis making changes according to their own thinkng.

Bhangu mentions the Khalsa as being a collective body of the Guru. Subsequently he mentions the Guru elevating the Shabad Guru, so thus there was no need to fear any renegade hijack. The Khalsa was amde Guru at Chamkaur, even before Banda met the Guru. Again historically speaking Banda Singh and Binod Singh were the ones who brought the ascension of the Shabad Guru to a majority of the Sikhs. Harbhajan Singh, author of Gurbani Sampadan Nirnay, is of the opinion that the Damdami Bir which was given Guruship accompanied Banda from Punjab and it was he who brought the edicts identifying it's new status quo. Budha-Dal oral tradition, and Baba Santa Singh's steek of the Prachin Panth Prakash, mention Banda going off track but soon repenting. His status as an amritdhari however is confirmed by both.

Khalsa is made Guru at Chamkaur:

“Quatrain: They arranged intense vigil all around with man standing next to man. More with more men were posted. In between them, none could penetrate at night.

2 One would surmise, ‘the Guru will not be contained’ and then again, ‘how will he fly off?’ In all four directions are his would be captors. A hundred thousand surrounded him.

3 Neither can he grow wings and fly away to some place, nor can he enter into the earth. Very rightly, the Guru was in real difficulty. It was as the people had speculated.

4 The True Guru could think of nothing viable. He had no fighting forces left. The princes had attained martyrdom. It was a matter of serious concern for the True Guru.5

Couplet: ‘I have returned my sons’ thought the True Guru. ‘There appears to be no escape for me and others. Whatever happens is His Will.’6

Quatrain: However, it is well that the Turks are responsible for our deaths. The words of our ancestors have been fulfilled. Now let me bestow Guruship on the Khalsa. He placed the mark of Guruship on the Khalsa.’ 7

Chaupai : Then Banda declared himself to be the humble servant of the Guru,

And declared the Guru to be his spiritual guide and master.

He begged forgiveness of the Guru for his past misdeeds,

And promised never to indulge in any of his past activities. (16)

He proclaimed himself to be the humble servant of the Guru,

And promised to carry out any command of the Guru.

He beseeched the Guru to take him into his fold,

And consider him as the most intimate disciple of the Guru. (17)

He bent on his knees with folded hands before the Guru.

The Guru felt pleased (at his change of heart and transformation),

And accepted Banda to be his disciple for his obedience. (1)

Chaupai : The Guru warned Banda of the rigours of becoming a Guru’s disciple,

As it involved an unconditional surrender of one’s complete self before the Guru,

Since accepting His way of life meant total surrender of one’s pride,

It was an extremely difficult and rigorous way of life. (2)

Since becoming a Guru’s Sikh meant complete dissolution of one’s ego,

It involved renouncing one’s family ties and accepting Guru’s ideological order.

It resembled the renunciation of an insect, which severed its links with its own species,

And forged an allegiance with another order of species of humming bees. (3)

Dohra : The tradition of Sikhism’s ideological code was as difficult to follow,

As a walk on the razor’s edge more sharp than a strand of hair.

A devotee must serve the guru with complete commitment and devotion,

And yet remain humble during his service to the Guru. (4)

Whatever conditions the Guru laid down before the supplicating Banda,

The Banda accepted all those stipulations in complete humility.

The Guru, then, named him as Banda Singh from his earlier name,

Which the Guru’s new disciple accepted in all humility and reverence. (5)

Chaupai : When Banda Singh beseeched the Guru repeatedly for mercy,

The Guru blessed him out of his benevolence and grace.

Banda Singh, then, sought Guru’s permission to allot him some task,

And begged for any kind of service that he could render unto the Guru. (6)

The bold is where the Prachin Panth Prakash Katha, by the Budha-Dal, makes an emphasis to prove Banda was an amritdhari. It subsequently explains why the Nihungs almost condemn his memory. His renunciation of the Khalsa code did not sit well with their foremost post-Guru era commander, Akali-Nihung Baba Binod Singh Ji. But even before that Bhangu mentions Bahadur Shah's letter to Banda:

Although the Emperor himself was keen to kill all those hill chiefs,

Yet it was better that Guru’s own disciple had dealt with them.

The emperor reiterated that he was a humble servant of the Guru,

Since it was with the Guru’s grace that he had become a sovereign.

Now we reach the area where Bhangu ultimately expresses Banda as being a turncoat. After taking great pains to highlight Banda's willingness to join the panth, he now employs a swift tempo to show Banda's betrayal:

Banda Singh had written that he was, no longer, a Guru’s follower,

As he had been an original follower of Bairagi Vaishno seat.

He remarked that his collaboration with the Guru was over,

As he would become a sovereign with his own powers. (20)

Then we have the mughals. Persian sources, such as the Tarik-I-Jahandar Shah, Ibratnama, Shahnama (not the Persian epic about Sorab and Rustam but the work of Munwar Kalam) and Fatuhatnama-I-Samadi, often employ derogatory terms for Banda which were usually reserved for Sikhs. 'The accursed Nanakpanthi...' etc. Subsequently they also praise the role of Hindus in supporting the Mughals against the Khalsa.

1.) The Rajput polity's apathy in supporting Banda. Banda is said to have sent Raja Sawai Jai Singh a letter on September 11, 1711 A.D. to form a coalition with the Khalsa. The latter would have been beneficial, especially due to the Rajput proximity to the Mughal nucleus.

2.) The actions of the Shivalik monarchs. The latter provided necessary rations and manpower to the Mughal forces to obstruct Banda during the campaigns of Lohgarh and Gurdas Nangal.

It is significant to note that along with the Akhbar-I-Durbar-I-Mulla, these sources perpetually refer to Banda's low character, which is proclaimed as arising out of:

1.) His persecution of Radical Islam.

2.) His persecution of Radical casteism.

3.) His persecution of the High Castes.

And what each of them note as being his liberation of the 'Shudras' from their inherent shackles. This is purported as being one of the many reasons as to why many Hindu monarchs failed to respond to his alliance requests.

Bhangu's elaboration as the panth being Guru is easily evidenced from the Sarabloh Granth, which is believed to have been concluded around the time the Guru met Banda. It is also significant to note that Nihungs believe Banda also possessed a Bir of this Granth.

ਆਪਨਪੌ ਸ਼੍ਰੀ ਖਾਲਸਹਿ ਸੌਪਾਂ, ਦ੍ਵਤਯਿ ਰੂਪ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥਾ ॥

I (Guru Gobind Singh Ji) have passed down (my form) to the Khalsa, the second Form of mine is the Granth

ਬੋਲਨ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸਬਦ-ਸੋਭਾਖਨ, ਨਾਮ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਕੀਰਤਨਿ ਸੰਥਾ ॥

The recitation of the Shabad is the Satiguru's speach to us, whether it be Gods Name [simran roop)], or through singing hymns [keertan], or through studying His Word [santhaa]

ਗੁਨਾਨੁਵਾਦ ਪੁਨਿ ਸਿਫਤਿ ਸਲਾਹਨਿ, ਊਠਤੁ ਬੈਠਤੁ ਸੈਨ ਕਰੰਥਾ ॥

By praising the Lord one becomes virtuous, whether standing or sitting

ਪਾਵਨ ਪੰਥ ਖਾਲਸਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਯੋ, ਚਾਰ ਵਰਨ ਆਸ਼੍ਰਮ ਸੁਭ ਪੰਥਾ ॥੧॥

The pure Panth, the Khalsa has came into being, that glorious Panth with four castes [Khatri, Bahman, Sudh, Vaish] and four ashrams [brahamchari, Grishti, Vaanprasti, Sanyasi]

ਇਨ ਕੇ ਦਰਸ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਕੋ ਦਰਸਨ, ਬੋਲਨ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਬਦੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗ੍ਰੰਥਾ ॥

If you wish to behold Me then behold the Khalsa [which is Satiguru], if you wish to speak to Me then repeat the Bani from the Guru Granth Sahib

ਦ੍ਵਾਦਸਿ ਰੂਪ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਏ ਕਹਿਯਤਿ, ਦ੍ਵਾਦਸਿ-ਭਾਨੁ ਪ੍ਰਗਟ ਹਰਿ ਸੰਤਾ ॥

Oh Saints of the Hari listen, in twelve forms the Satiguru appears, just as twelve phases of the sun

ਪ੍ਰਤਯਖ ਕਲਾ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਧਣੀਛੈ, ਗ੍ਰੰਥਿ ਪੰਥ ਖਾਲਸ ਵਰਤੰਤਾ ॥

The visible power of God is manifested in the Khalsa as [the doctrine of the Guru] Granth and [that of the Guru] Panth

ਦਾਸ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਫਤਹ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਕੀ, ਖਾਸ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਗੁਰੁ ਰੂਪ ਬਦੰਤਾ ॥੨॥ਦੁਪਦ ੧॥

The Servant, Gobind [singh] says, all victory is Paramatma's, the true Guru's form is now the [Guru] Granth.

So in conclusion we are left reeling with the fact that Banda, once an amritdhari, betrayed his Guru, yet apologized for his misdeeds.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Amarjeet Singh_1737

[chatanga1]

"Above what Chatanga? Sorry that I have to point it to you but he was above all a mortal like any of his followers. He was neither a dashing general nor a charismatic leader who would inspire the whole quam to rise in rebellion and fight muslim tyranny. Banda had these leadership and martial qualities. "

according to sher.

i remember you peddling this rubbish a couple of years ago, on a sikh-hindu "unity" forum.

If you believe Guru Ji was neither a dashing general or a charismatic leader, well, each to his own. If you believe he was a mortal, thats upto you as well.

But as for Banda having these qualities, it was the same Banda who, despite his martial qualities needed someone like Guru Ji to correctly channel these very same qualities for the good of the common man.

And you can claim that Banda remained a bairagi all you want, we dont believe it here, and never will. take your hindu agenda somewhere else, plenty like you have tried here and failed.

[Amarjeet Singh_1737]

Chatanga, like me, you have every right to your opinion. whenever i have time I try to provide context to the "rubbish" i right. Bairagi part, read Bhangu's Panth Parkash. Diet, dress, salutation..almost everything was changed by BB acc to Bhangu's book which also exposes neo-Sikh diatribe against one community. There are instances of jats betraying the panth and Guru himself everywhere but no commentator here would like to mention that. Same about Mata Sundri and Sahibzadas (progenies of previous Guru sahibans) betraying BB, deserting him right in the middle of his final stand and getting jagirs for their treacherous act from Farukhsiyar.

If i am not wrong, Bhangu also talks about Mata Sundari getting Binod Singh Trehan released from Mughal imprisonment.

someone has written about Hills Rajas not cooperating with Banda...non-sense as Nahan Raja had to pay huge price for giving shelter to BB whose initial forays were not supported by Punjab's Jat peasantry or khatris.

Chaupai : They (the Mughals) offered same revenue collections to the Khalsa Singhs,

Which the Singhs accepted but settled for a still greater share.

Aslam Khan was the custodian of Lahore (at that time),

Who sought the protection of Baba Kahan Singh’s15 contingent. (59)

Dohra : (Their contingent) consisted of Baba Kahan Singh and Bachan Singh,

Who belonged to (the Kshtriya caste) of Trehans.

Along with them was the wrestler Daya Ram,

Who had fought in the battle of Bhangani (along with Guru Gobind Singh). (60)

Chaupai : Miri Singh, who was the eldest son of Baba Kahan Singh,

Had participated in a wrestling bout against the Bandhayee Singhs.

He used to remain in the close company of Guru Gobind Singh,

Whom the Guru had initiated with his own (sacred) hands. (61)

He observed (the Khalsa dress code) wearing blue robes and steel rings,

And never associated with Meenas16 , Masands17 and those indulging in female infanticide.

He never had any dealings with the followers of Ram Rai18 ,

And would harass and kill those belonging to Banda Singh’s faction. (62)

Observing every command of the Guru regarding the Sikh code of conduct,

He practised the prescribed code of conduct (in letter and spirit).

After falling foul with Banda Singh, these Singhs defected from his command,

(Upon which) five hundred more Singhs also walked out along with them"

That's just one extract from one page and there are scores of others which run totally opposite what you believe in.

If you could kindly highlight where the Nahan Raja is mentioned in that extract, than that would be a phenomenal aid! Also where Bhangu mentions Binod Singh being released from Mughal imprisonment and the Jagirs being gifted to Banda's detractors.

[Amarjeet Singh_1737]

Plus Sher you can track down the Mughal sources themselves and flip through them. I am sure being in India you are in a more closer proximity to them than me. On the other hand why are we forgetting Bhangu himself was a Nihung and his parents were from a generation which would have seen Banda's volte-face? Of course he would have vilified his microcosmic mistakes to a paramount extent to prove his own (Bhangu's) calibre.

[Genie Singh]

Now this thread is beyond me with the references to hard to get sources on banda singh bahadur.

Please get this book for authentic banda singh bahdur accounts from persians

http://www.amazon.com/Sikh-History-Persian-Sources-Translations/dp/8185229171/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1387406578&sr=8-1&keywords=sikh+history+persian+sources

http://www.amazon.in/Sikh-History-From-Persian-Sources/dp/8189487892/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1387406619&sr=8-1&keywords=sikh+history+persian+sources

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sikh-History-Persian-Sources-Translations/dp/8185229171/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1387406656&sr=8-1&keywords=sikh+history+persian+sources

Edited December 18, 2013 by JatherdarSahib

[Guest]

Enough said on this topic, topic locked.