Tawheed

Bismillaah alhamdulillaah wa salaatu wa salaam ‘alaa rasoolillaah, wa ba’ad Response to jtSingh Good point jtSingh. I am a Sunni Muslim who refers everything concerning Islaam back to the Qur'an and Sunnah upon the understanding of the Early Pious Predecessors, i.e. the Companions of the Messenger of Allaah ('alayhi salaatu wa salaam). This will suffice for now. Response to lalleshvari I am here to discuss the concept and understanding of God between Islaam and Sikhism. Once we have done that, then I'll entertain other questions. I do not wish to divert from the subject at hand. I wish to discuss how Sikh's understand pantheism (Nirgun/Sargun) in comparison to the Tawheed of al-Islaam. As I said, I'm in the process of preparing a discussion which I'll post up soon. Once we've dealt with that, we can move on to other topics, insha'allaah.

Bismillaah alhamdulillaah wa salaatu wa salaam ‘alaa rasoolillaah, wa ba’ad Bismillaah alhamdulillaah wa salaatu wa salaam ‘alaa rasoolillaah, wa ba’ad Response to Babbarsher You asked me about specific points pertaining to Islaam, i.e. about the belief in Allaah, about following the Prophet and his role in Islaam, etc. When you ask me to clarify what Islaam teaches I refer to the sources. I would expect you to do the same when I ask you about Sikhism. Perhaps it is different for you but when someone asks about Islaam the first source we turn to is the Qur’an and the Prophetic Sunnah (authentic tradition). When ones wants to learn about Shakespeare I presume one would turn to the source itself! As I explained, the clarification you put forth for Sikhism, I will deal with appropriately when I open up a thread to discuss the concept of God. I did assure you that I would come back to them. Have patience and we’ll discuss them soon, insha’allaah

Bismillaah alhamdulillaah wa salaatu wa salaam ‘alaa rasoolillaah, wa ba’ad Very quickly Response to Rochak Malang That's a fallacy known as "begging the question". This is why we are discussing my friend, did Allaah really send Guru Nanak Dev Jee? As for the 4 points you have raised then they are interesting but not conclusive proofs that Sikhism is true and established by God. Your first point: So, if I understand your rationale, if it is a case of a religion being true based upon the mode of transmission then Christianity have the best claim of all: God Himself came down to the Earth requiring no messengers or communion. Will you now concede and convert to Christianity? No! The above is not conclusive proof. Your second point: The Mormons claim that their book came from heaven without being written down. Does this mean Mormonism’s brand of Christianity is the religion of Truth? No! I hope you see the flaw in the points you have raised. And thank you for your invitation. Response to Amardeep Singh As I said they have a diametrically opposed (opposite) concept of God. How can they both be true? Let me establish the universal law of non-Contradiction: If you understand this law you will see the flaw in your analogy. Let us take the very foundations of our respective religions. We as Muslims negate the Nirgun/Sargun notion but you affirm it. Can they both be true? No. We say that revelation ceased with Muhammad (‘alayhi salaatu wa salaam) but you negate this. Can they both be true? No. And the list goes on. So it is impossible for us to accept both as truth unless we wish to affirm contradictions. And this is the basis of most religions, especially Islaam: The very core concept and understanding of God is antithetical and contradictory to other religions so unless God wants us to think irrationally and accept contradictions, we cannot affirm Islaam and Sikhism as both being true. Response to jtSingh I am a Muslim who follows the Qur’an and the Sunnah and this will suffice for now.

Bismillaah alhamdulillaah wa salaatu wa salaam ‘alaa rasoolillaah, wa ba’ad Just to answer some of your points BabbarSher (love the name by the way). As we say: “QadarAllaah wa maa shaa fa-al†– Allaah has Decreed and whatever He Wills will occur Succinctly put, the final revelation was to Muhammad (‘alayhi salaatu wa salaam). With him revelation ceased and Islaam was perfected: [align=center:fec9be5a97]â€This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islaam as your religion.†[5:3][/align:fec9be5a97] [align=center:fec9be5a97]â€Truly, the (only) religion with Allaah is Islaam. †[3:19][/align:fec9be5a97] [align=center:fec9be5a97]â€And whoever seeks a religion other than Islaam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers.†[3:85][/align:fec9be5a97] Since the religion is perfected, there is nothing that can succeed it otherwise it would not have been classed as ‘perfect’ in the first place. Therefore, Islaam is the only religion acceptable to Allaah according to these clear verses. The Messenger of Allah (‘alayhi salaatu wa salaam) said: If we take the Shahaadatayn – The Dual Declaration of Faith, the very foundation of Islaam and the first pillar, it is the answer to your question: “I bear witness that none has the right to be worshipped accept Allaah and I bear witness that Muhammad is the slave and Messenger of Allaah.†And to affirm that He is the final Messenger and the Qur’an is the Final revelation: [align=center:fec9be5a97]â€Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the Messenger of Allaah and the seal (end) of the Prophets. And Allaah is Ever All­Aware of everything.†[33:40][/align:fec9be5a97] [align=center:fec9be5a97]†And who believe in (the Qur'ân and the Sunnah) which has been sent down (revealed) to you (Muhammad) and in [the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel), etc.] which were sent down before you and they believe with certainty in the Hereafter. (Resurrection, recompense of their good and bad deeds, Paradise and Hell, etc.). They are on (true) guidance from their Lord, and they are the successful.†[2:4-5][/align:fec9be5a97] And from this we learn that Allaah has said that true guidance are for those who believe in the Qur’an and the previous revelations without the mention of any revelation, thus any Prophet, to come thereafter. Therefore, to follow Prophet Muhammad (‘alayhi salaatu wa salaam) is following Allaah and to deny him is denying Allaah, since Allaah says: [align=center:fec9be5a97]â€Say (O Muhammad): 'If you truly love Allaah then follow me, Allaah in turn will love you and forgive you your sins for Allaah is Oft-Forgiving Most-Merciful.†[3:31][/align:fec9be5a97] [align=center:fec9be5a97]â€O you who believe (Muslims)! Obey Allaah and obey His Messenger…†[4:59 (Unconditional statement to obey Prophet Muhammad)][/align:fec9be5a97] [align=center:fec9be5a97]â€He who obeys the Messenger (Muhammad), has indeed obeyed Allaah, but he who turns away, then we have not sent you (O Muhammad ) as a watcher over them.†[4:80][/align:fec9be5a97] In Islaam there is a clear condition for loving Allaah and that is to obey Muhammad (‘alayhi salaatu wa salaam), only then will Allaah love you since obeying Allaah is to obey the Prophet and vice-versa. Good, therefore, belief is either praiseworthy or blameworthy. Everyone believes in God, but the question is: How? This ‘how’ does not exclude the Muslims. They too must obey the Prophet (‘alayhi salaatu wa salaam) and those who disobey him (‘alayhi salaatu wa salaam) disobey Allaah and will be held accountable in the Hereafter, i.e. on the Day of Judgment. So let me define Islaam: As I’ve established, part of submitting to Allaah is to obey Him by following the Prophet (‘alayhi salaatu wa salaam). It should be noted, however, that this does not mean obeying the Prophet (‘alayhi salaatu wa salaam) is worshipping him. Obeying the Prophet (‘alayhi salaatu wa salaam) means obeying Allaah’s commandments and this, therefore, is worship of Allaah and a submission to His commandments. As for your explanations concerning my assertions that Sikhism is a pantheistic religion and that God manifested Himself in the Guru’s then what I will do, insha’allaah, is open up a new thread where I’ll delineate the concept and principles of Tawheed to you and then quote some aspects about Sikhism that I’ve come across. In doing so, I can entertain the points you have raised and give you the opportunity to correct what you deem to be mistakes on my part. Rest assured I will come back to your points. As for now, I hope I have answered your questions sufficiently.

Bismillaah alhamdulillaah wa salaatu wa salaam 'alaa rasoolillaah, wa ba'ad I see that Red-Herrings are flying about already. Firstly, thank you Saihajleen for your kind welcome. Alas, the same cannot be said about the first two replies, khair. Secondly, I didn’t say I do not know anything about Sikhism. I said I know very little but am willing to learn and rectify mistakes that may occur as a result of my lack of knowledge, as is the case with the Sikhs when they delve into Islaam – they make mistakes. “Truly this is a strange thing.†[al-Qur’an al-Kareem 38:5] That is, the question is very strange. The answer I thought was quote obvious: Allaah Would you like to quote for me where I said that Sikhism claims to be the only way/ path? I said: …only one religion is the religion of Truth. ...Hence, either Islaam’s understanding of Allaah is correct or Sikhism’s. Both religion’s belief and understanding of God is antithetical, thus, they cannot both be absolute truth I never said humans should decide. Let us quote scripture and let al-Haqq (Allaah) decide. “Say: ‘Truth has come and falsehood and vanished. Lo! Falsehood is ever bound to vanish’.†[17:81] Of course! From a religious perspective. Is the atheist, the one who denies the existence of God equal to the one who affirms and worships Him correctly? Is the Hindu lingum worshipper equal to the monotheist of al-Islaam? Is the Pagan Wikka equal to the Sikh? Are they all equal in their worship and understandiong of Allaah? Hence, mankind is all one in the sense that they all originate from one source, i.e. Allaah created them. However, if you mean to say they are equal spiritually and in their worship of God, then there is a differentiation here as clear as the differentiation between the colours black and white. [align=center:da43088de1]“ Say (O Muhammad ): "Who is the Lord of the heavens and the earth?" Say: "(It is) Allaah." Say: "Have you then taken (for worship) Auliyaa' (protectors, etc.) other than Him, which, even for themselves, have neither benefit nor hurt?" Say: "Is the blind equal to the one who sees? Or darkness equal to light? Or do they assign to Allaah partners who created the like of His creation, so that the creation (which they made and His creation) seemed alike to them?" Say: "Allaah is the Creator of all things, He is the One, the Irresistible. †[13:16][/align:da43088de1] The question is: We recognise this obvious differentiation and we also must, by necessity, say that one is correct and the other is incorrect. If we acknowledge this, then it is more appropriate, if Allaah is all-Just, that He too recognise this difference and establish it. Is this not acknowledged in Sikhism, or is the pagan idol worshipper deemed as being equal to the Sikh by God? [align=center:da43088de1]"And not equal are the blind and those who see, nor are (equal) those who believe (in the Oneness of Allâh Islâmic Monotheism), and do righteous good deeds, and those who do evil. Little do you remember!" [40:58][/align:da43088de1] If it is determined that a religion is divinely revealed from the all-Wise (al-Hakeem), the all-Knowledgeable (al-‘Aleem), then it stands to reason that the laws, commandments, permissibility’s, prohibitions, etc. have been established by the Creator. This is why it is imperative for us to speak about Allaah and Waheguru and not forward red-herrings. As for your assertion, then I would say that Islaam does not discriminate, but then I would have to ask you, what do you mean by: discrimination? You stated above: “Sikhism says each human is born to one Creator (Almighty), so no discrimination. Isn't this True that all mankind is One, dear Tawheed, then how could you differentiate between them.†I believe I have established that there are differentiations in spirituality and worship. If you, therefore, mean by discrimination – differentiation, then again there is a natural differentiation between man and woman. However, this is besides the point. We could speak about the intricacies of Gender Equality and whether this is truly viable or just a pipe dream, which does not accord with reality, until we are blue in the face. It does not answer the most important question of all: Is our understanding of God true or false? If it is false then our worship and our religion is false. If this is the case then our well-being in this life and the hereafter is in jeopardy. So let us talk about the most important thing – God, our creed, our understanding of Him. Good question Saihajleen, let us talk about god firstly and foremost. : Main Entry: pan·the·ism Pronunciation: 'pan(t)-thE-"i-z&m Function: noun Etymology: French panthéisme, from panthéiste pantheist, from English pantheist, from pan- + Greek theos god 1 : a doctrine that equates God with the forces and laws of the universe Cambridge Advanced Learners Dictionary: pantheism noun belief in many or all gods, or the belief that God exists in and is the same as all things, animals and people within the universe It has two definitions, but the one that is applicable and most common is that God is everywhere and in everything - what I believe you refer to as Sargun. Incidentally, just saw two new replies. Thank you for the kind welcome. I'll be adding a post soon concerning the understanding of Tawheed in comparison to what I see as the pantheistic notion of Sikhism and insha'allaah, barring any red-herrings, we can have a good coherent discussion

Having frequented your forum for a while, I have decided to post an invitation to the Religion of Truth - al-Islaam, of which Allaah says: [align=center:2ce0b59c18]"It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad) with guidance and the Religion of Truth, to make it superior over all religions even though the Mushrikoon (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allaah) will hate (it)." [9:33][/align:2ce0b59c18] In a way that befits the Truth: [align=center:2ce0b59c18]“Invite to the Way of your Lord with wisdom, and a good mode of preaching, and debate with them in a way that is best.†[16:125][/align:2ce0b59c18] And since this is the Truth then, insha’allaah (God-Willing), it will overwhelm falsehood, since this is the nature of Truth: [align=center:2ce0b59c18]“And say: "Truth has come and falsehood has vanished. Lo! Falsehood is ever bound to vanish.†[17:81] “Nay, We fling (send down) the truth against the falsehood (disbelief), so it destroys it, and behold, it (falsehood) is vanished. And woe to you for that (lie) which you ascribe (to Us) (against Allaah).†[21:18] “And no example or similitude do they bring (to oppose or to find fault in you or in this Qur'ân), but We reveal to you the truth (against that similitude or example), and the better explanation thereof.†[25:33][/align:2ce0b59c18] The Truth that was conveyed by all the Prophets and Messengers to all people from the very first Prophet (Adam - ‘alayhi salam) to the very final one (Muhammad - sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) with whom revelation ceased: [align=center:2ce0b59c18]“And verily, We have sent among every nation a Messenger (ordering): "Worship Allaah (Alone), and avoid (or keep away from) Taaghoot (all false deities, etc. i.e. do not worship Taaghoot besides Allaah)."†[16:36] “And We did not send any Messenger before you (O Muhammad) but We inspired him (to say): None has the right to be worshipped but I (Allaah), so worship Me (Alone and none else).†[21:25][/align:2ce0b59c18] What was their call? It was to the true worship of Allaah, known as Tawheed, the purest worship of the Creator as revealed by Him, which means: Realising and Maintaining of Allaah’s Oneness/ Unity in all of mans actions which directly or indirectly relate to Him (Allaah). This consists of three categories: Tahweed ar-Ruboobiyyah – Unity of Allaah’s Lordship That He is the sole creator and sustainer of everything that exists. Tawheed al-‘Ibaadah – Unity of Allaah’s Worship Single out Allaah for ALL forms of worship and not to associate any deities in His worship. Tawheed al-Asmaa was-Sifaat – Unity of Allaah’s Names and Attributes. And we were created to worship Him upon Tawheed: [align=center:2ce0b59c18]“And I have not created Jinn and humankind except to worship Me. I do not seek any provision from them, nor that I ask that they feed Me. Truly Allaah is the All-Provider (ar-Razaaq), the owner of absolute Power/ Might (thul Quwaatil Mateen).†[51:56-8][/align:2ce0b59c18] And to disassociate ourselves from the opposite of Tawheed – Ash-Shirk, the greatest crime against Allaah, so great that He will never forgive those who commit it and die upon it having not repented: [align=center:2ce0b59c18]“Truly Allaah will not forgive Shirk, but He shall forgive whatsoever is lesser than that to whomsoever He wills†[4:48] “And indeed it has been revealed to you just as it was to those before you: ‘If you commit Shirk, surely (all) your deeds will be negated and you will be from amongst the losers’†[39:65][/align:2ce0b59c18] Since they follow falsehood and have no proofs and no convincing arguments for this false worship and contrived notion of Allaah: [align=center:2ce0b59c18]“And he who invokes along with Allaah any other god, has no proof for it, then his reckoning is only with his Lord. Surely the disbelievers will never be successful.†[23:117] “You do not worship besides Him but only names which you have named (forged), you and your fathers, for which Allaah has sent down no authority. The command (or the judgement) is for none but Allaah. He has commanded that you worship none but Him, that is the (true) straight religion, but most of mankind know not.†[12:40] “When it is said to them: "Follow what Allaah has sent down." They say: "Nay! We shall follow what we found our forefathers following." (Would they do that!) Even though their forefathers did not understand anything nor were they guided?†[2:170][/align:2ce0b59c18] And they are in a state of delusion: [align=center:2ce0b59c18]“Truly the disbelievers are in nothing but delusion.†[67:20][/align:2ce0b59c18] Thinking they follow the truth when in reality they follow nothing but their own desires in opposition to the guidance from their Lord: [align=center:2ce0b59c18]“Have you seen him who has taken his vain desires as his god, and Allaah knowing (him as such), left him astray, and sealed his hearing and his heart, and put a cover on his sight. Who then will guide him after Allaah? Will you not then remember?†[45:23][/align:2ce0b59c18] And these people who invent worship for Allaah and say this is from Him when in reality it is not are worse than the animals since the animals at least are doing what they were created to do. However, they have not only turned away from His worship, thereby denying the very purpose of their existence, but have invented lies against their Lord deluding themselves into thinking they are upon the truth when they are not: [align=center:2ce0b59c18]“Or do you think that most of them hear or understand? They are only like cattle; nay, they are even farther astray from the Path. (i.e. even worst than cattle).†[25:44][/align:2ce0b59c18] Having taken all of the above into account, we must all agree, whether we are Muslim, Sikh, Hindu, Christian or Jew, we all believe in Allaah and claim to have the Truth, the whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth. However, only one religion is the religion of Truth. We all agree that our purpose in life is to worship our Creator. Our Creator, the all-Just, the one who has the perfect attribute of Justice, cannot be worshipped except upon the one true religion. This is easily established when we realise that ALL religions, who claim to be the religion of Truth, not only have a unique particularised form of worship, but more importantly, a very specific and defined understanding of the Creator. The Christians believe in a Triune nature of God claiming that God came down in the form of a human being. We Muslims believe that it is not befitting the majesty of the Creator, the absolute perfect, to come down as a human and we believe that He is separate and distinct from His creation. And you Sikhs believe that God is everywhere and in everything (Pantheism) and believe, although not all, that He too manifested Himself as a human, i.e. Gurus. Since worship is the reason for our existence, we cannot worship Allaah without having the correct understanding of our Creator. Indeed, two religions whose notion of god is antithetical, contradictory to one another, cannot both be the religion of Truth. There can only ever be one. Hence, either Islaam’s understanding of Allaah is correct or Sikhism’s. Both religion’s belief and understanding of God is antithetical, thus, they cannot both be absolute truth. In Islaam, Allaah has ordered us to have knowledge of Tawheed: [align=center:2ce0b59c18]“Have knowledge of Laa ilaaha illallaah – None has the right to be worshipped in truth except Allaah…†[47:19][/align:2ce0b59c18] Laa ilaaha illallaah is the declaration of faith and the first and most important pillar of Islaam. - it is Tawheed. And since Tawheed is an all-encompassing understanding of Allaah, we claim that He cannot be understood correctly and rationally except upon affirming Laa ilaaha illallaah. Without the precious knowledge of this declaration, a person will not only have an incomplete and incorrect understanding of his Creator, but also a rationally impaired one, which will lead onto contradictions and inconsistencies concerning Him. And this can easily be demonstrated when we compare the revelation of Tawheed to all the errant notions concerning God stemming from the plethora of extant religions. Hence, it is my intention bi ithnillahi ta’aalah (by the permission of Allaah) to compare the Tawheed of Allaah to the Pantheistic notion propounded and followed by Sikhism. The reason I am opening up this line of discussion, which insha’allaah (God-Willing) I pray will be a fruitful one where each side displays good conduct, is because firstly and foremost – Allaah, our Creator is the most important part of our lives. If the Truth is to be found or lost, indeed it will be with our understanding, or lack of, concerning our Creator, since if we have a deficient understanding and it is shown to be so then this is direct proof that the religion we follow, which claims to be revelation from God, is deficient and false. I also wish to emphasise that it is not my intention to delve into this discussion to create controversy, nor to be discourteous or ill-mannered towards anyone since Allaah has ordered the Muslims not to curse the gods of the disbelievers, no matter how absurd or offensive it may be: [align=center:2ce0b59c18]“And insult not those whom they (disbelievers) worship besides Allaah, lest they insult Allaah wrongfully without knowledge. Thus We have made fair­seeming to each people its own doings; then to their Lord is their return and He shall then inform them of all that they used to do.†[6:108][/align:2ce0b59c18] Although I understand you all have your beliefs, it will not dissuade me from calling a spade-a-spade, since I too have my own beliefs and convictions and will not compromise when needing to express falsehood as falsehood. Having said that, I have been commanded by Allaah to call to Islaam with a good mode of preaching and debate in the ways that are best and that is what I intend to do, insha’allaah. I also must say that I do not know very much about Sikhism except for what I have read on your Forum from time to time and the minimal amount of research I have done, therefore, as one of your members has it as his signature: Bhool chook maaf. If I do err in anything concerning your religion or jump to an abrupt conclusion then please correct me, I’m always open to correction.