WakeUp

JustAnotherSingh Jinwhat do you make of some of these rehets making the statement that no Singh should trust any woman even those close to them such as their own wives? I think it also says bibis can not recite bani in public, in sangat. I think Chaupa singh rehetnama has both. All the copies of so called puratan rehetnamas we have now were adulterated. You can't tell me Guru Ji would approve of the above.

Samurai, veer if it's replication of the first five then why do we allow black males or causcsian males or for that matter why do we allow males from castes which were not represented by the original five? If it was true replication of the original details then we shouldn't allow anyone who was not Punjabi, brown skinned, and from one of the castes that the original were. But somehow we don't think these details are important to replicate while gender is. Why is it only gender which is important? I think what jasper Ji and I both are trying to say is that as long as the soul is high avastha that is what matters to be replicated. These bodies are false and will die in the end but the light inside won't. The very fact you say Mai Bhago was allowed to choose to be a warrior and she not stopped by Guru Ji and in fact she was made a personal body guard. He never told her this is only for the boys go home. That shows Guru Ji does not discriminate. If women choose to give their heads and lead warrior lifestyle then who are we to say they can't represent the original 5? It was Guru Ji who armed women with kirpan same as men. "Jo to praym khaylan ka chaao, sir dhar talee galee mayree aao. " "It maarag pair dhareejai, sir deejai kaan na keejai." If women are prepared to do that then they ARE replicating the original 5. As for being polite by holding doors etc you can do that nobody is stopping you. And women will find it polite. Most women today however also don't think lowly of a male who doesn't. Some will even hold it for you if they walk through first. I think that is all just trivial things and we shouldn't worry about them. Just be polite to everyone male and female alike.

My experiences with negativity regarding equality have been direct in that responses from members like Chatanga, now samurai etc and what they are stating. If my responses are similar to another member then it's pure coincidence. Maybe we just think alike. I have not seen that person you mentioned around here so I can't comment. And my responses are directly responding to posts by member Chatanga tva prasad and samurai how am I supposed to respond? They keep saying the same things over and over too. Is this forum open to anyone? If you don't want the general reputation of the forum being negative towards females then where is the positive? I have not seen any so please show me if you say not all think like that! I have only seen negative things on here sicne I came here.

Did you know that ragmala appears in a composition as part of a Hindi love poem called Maadhav Nal Kaam Kundla which was written by a Sufi Muslim Kavi, Alam?

We can be warrior for a good cause, like upholding the rights of others and fighting injustice and tyranny. Like when we fought for Hindu to be able to practice their own religion and not converted by force. Did it mean we idolize them? Did it mean since we stood up for and fought for them that somehow it makes them lesser than us or deserving of less rights? And now we should fight for right for our sisters mothers and daughters to have their rightful equal status in Sikhi given by our Gurus. Gurus sent our women as masands and we want to keep them locked in kitchen! That would be a warrior with a righteous cause, to fight against this discrimination our Bibis face! But instead you seem to be fighting for the wrong side, to want to uphold discrimination, to put our sisters mothers daughters into lower position and take away their rightful place beside us. Remember the same jot is in all of us including women. Regardless of whether you can lift more or fight better than an average female (you may be better at fighting then I am but you wouldn't discriminate against me for seva would you? So it's not about the amount of muscles is it as any male no matter how large their muscles are they are can easily be selected for Panj Pyaras without resistance?) But Gurbani teaches us despite our differences we should all be treated equally. Shouldn't we fight for something worth fighting for? Be a warrior, nobody is stopping you but take example from our Gurus and fight for what's right and what Gurbani teaches us: ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਗਾਇਆ ਹਰਿ ਹਾਰੁ ਉਰਿ ਪਾਇਆ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਾ ਕੰਠਿ ਧਾਰੇ ॥ Gurmaṯ har gā▫i▫ā har hār ur pā▫i▫ā har nāmā kanṯẖ ḏẖāre. Under Guru's Instruction, they sing the Lord's Name, and wear the garland of the Lord's Name around their necks; they keep the Lord's Name in their throats. ਸਭ ਏਕ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਸਮਤੁ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖੈ ਸਭੁ ਆਤਮ ਰਾਮੁ ਪਛਾਨ ਜੀਉ ॥ Sabẖ ek ḏarisat samaṯ kar ḏekẖai sabẖ āṯam rām pacẖẖān jī▫o. They look upon all with equality, and recognize the Supreme Soul, the Lord, pervading among all.

Samurai if you consider your vulgar attitude to be the pinnacle of what Sikhs are supposed to be then I fear we are all doomed. There is no need for language like that! Admins, can you do something about this? This self proclaimed 'warrior' is directly attacking others for no reason, for their beliefs, beliefs which Gurbani actually espouses!

You are making no sense. Pls calm down bro. Even a Khalsa male can be attacked just in different ways. And females can also attack others. It hardly matters now with guns. We need to focus on eliminating hatred and greed and wanting to harm others instead of focusing on who has the larger muscles. Mad for rehet maryada panthic decision women can be Panj Pyaras. Sorry you disagree (if in fact you do since you have not straight out said so) and Sikh rehet maryada is the only one recognized by Akal Takht. Sorry but that's how it is. You can choose to follow Damdami Taksal that's your right just like it's mine to follow Sikh rehet maryada. But you can't go saying your is right. Referencing Gurbani Sikh rehet maryada actually follows it more. Anyway I don't think jasper Ji has meant anything bad.

I can answer that one. ALL Sikhs are to stand up and defend others. If anyone make or female sees anyone raping another or robbing another etc that Sikh has to stand up against that. This is why we need to also teach girls defence and martial arts. I don't think jasper is idolize for his daughter. His having a daughter allows him to see the limits placed on her because she is female and he wants to speak against that. And I agree with him. Feel free to yell at me too. Oh and reason why men rape women? One word. Control. It's about power over another. It actually stems from the idea that women are beneath men and subordinate. This is what We are supposed to be against.

Bhaji have you ever thought people can use the same arguments because they are actually valid? Multiple Singhs on here use the same argument that Jarnail singh said because no woman gave her head that day no woman ever can be part of panj Pyaras. And its always presented the same way. But have you ever thought that these members are the same one? I doubt it. Just because Jasper Ji and I have different view point from the majority on here and because we use the same argument doesn't mean we are another member on here. It's because we feel our arguments are valid and if another member had these same arguments before both of us then they too I feel had valid points that need to be brought up. There are only so many ways to say that something goes against Gurbani. There are only so many ways to say we are equal and all have the divine light. There are only so many ways one can say that sexism is same as casteism. I thought I provided much truth based on Gurbani and gurmat principles to support my case. If I am not the only one presenting these ideas then that is evidence there is merit to them that others have thought the same! Prior to registering I was only ever a guest. I did come here to read for about 1 year. Though I did once use a different guest name posting but I didn't know we had to use same one all the time so once you pointed it out I stuck with this one. It's ok, I think you just can't fathom that multiple people have idea that Sikhi teaches absolute equality and equal opportunity. I didn't expect much else because it seems most on here can not ever have open mind to think so. I appolohize if I have said anything wrong. Bhul chuck maaf.

I have only been on here as a guest before making this account and then you guys made guest make account.

Except we are not talking just Amrit sanchars. Does the one putting the patase get a say in what punishment one receives for bujjar kurehits? And what about when Panj Pyaras are formed for decision to be made on behalf of the panth? There is no patase being added ther is there? So how would a female have any input on these decisions? If it's always males then no females ever have any say in these things. And Chatanga yes the consciousness is what gave their heads. The consciousness is what made the decision to. Which head they had at the time did not matter. I have come to the conclusion that you are just misogynistic and will never change which is a pitty. Yes masands were disbanded but Yiu had asked about women administering Amrit in that time and I gave you real world examples. It makes no sense that Guru Ji then decided to discriminate against women after 1699. And you keep harping on proof in history after 1699. We barely have any written history at all about who took part in Amrit sanchars after 1699! Usually only sanchars with prominent people being initiated were written about and those were mostly military etc. we can't use only those few examples as litmus test for all time! What about Amrit sanchars which took place in villages especially when many singhs would have been away fighting? It makes sense that women would have been the ones administering it in those cases but they weren't high profile so they were not written about. Have an open mind. Your resistance to women as Panj Pyaras seems to be rooted more in your own disgust at the idea than actually looking to see if it is in accordance with Gurbani and gurmat principles. In other words you go looking for the negative where there isn't.

you are not getting what I am saying!! The soul has NO GENDER!!!!!! You could have been a female last time, I could have been a female last time! We might be next time! Our soul IS THE LIGHT! Gurbani says the divine light is in EVERY person!!!! A taksali giani can say what he wants. I don't believe him because what he says goes against Gurbani. How can female bodies not have that divine light? Female 'sants' indoctrinated in taksali or Dera beliefs will just parrot those same beliefs. Because that's what the sant life is devoting their life to THAT teachings!! Ask a female sant from AKJ what she thinks! Don't rely all on just taksal and dera thinking. The light doesn't 'come into' someone or even five someones. The light is already there in everyone. In fact the awareness behind every entity is the same ONE! The same light is already there! Lets say we act in a play with a bunch of others. Today I play the part of a female and you play the part of a male. (It's our souls playing the play). Tomorrow I play the male and you the female. This happens over and over. Then one day in 1699 something happens and five of us volunteer our heads. They happen to be playing a male at the time. Do you get that it was the soul who volunteered? Not the body! You can't say it was five males who volunteered. It was five actors who happened to be playing the part of a male at the time. Amrit sanchar is a an act of soul not the body. By your thinking above with the light thing if you actually believe it is you are saying women are lower spiritually than men. Is that what you are saying? Why even give them Amrit then? What's the point if they can't progress spiritually to recognize that light within them!? By saying what you just said about the light and females, you are essentially saying the soul itself has gender and that is not in line with Gurbani. So now you're saying females are inferior physically AND spiritually. So just what is Gurbani talking about when it says they are equal? And especially equal carriers of the divine light? Step away from one sided dera ideology for a bit. Listen to others outside of one group. Of course they will perpetuate stories in their own group to further their own ideology. Taksalis are known for being patriarchal. Of course their teaching will be patriarchal. Some of that comes from brahministic thinking. That women need to be born in a male joon first to get anywhere and for now their punishment is to serve men. I believe Chatanga already parroted this earlier. That being born a woman is result of karams and that her duty / punishment this life is to serve her husband. This is brahministic thinking and nothing else. Stop using only taksali examples to support your claims! "As Gurmukh look upon ALL with a single eye of equality, for in EACH and EVERY heart the DIVINE LIGHT is contained" SGGSJ

Wrong. You are essentially still pushing women into position of having no say in panthic decisions as it's Panj Pyaras who are called upon for that. Do you think our Gurus meant for women to have no say on panthic decisions? Remember the SOUL the Jyot inside is the SAME. Gender is only useful for physical things not spiritual. By saying women are unfit for things because of their physical body then you need to justify why that soul was born into that body to begin with since you have just turned gender into either punishment or privilege depending on which you end up with. Spiritual matters have nothing to do with physical gender. And Gurbani very CLEARLY states all are equal. You can't decide to change that. The Gurus gave masands ability to initiate by charan pahul in absence of the Guru. There were women masands. Women gave Amrit prior to 1699. One prominent woman masand was in charge of all Kashmir. There is no reason that women would be all of a sudden unallowed to after 1699. Have you noticed all the 'reasons' you guys give are just your own opinions? And they all reek of male superiority ego. Every reason seems to suggest personal opinions of women are lesser, less capable, inferior, unsuitable, not good leaders. Not based on Gurbani and gurmat principles. Remove your own stubborn male ego and see the truth. You won't be emasculated if you support your wife or daughter to have equality. In fact you will feel much better about yourself than treating them as (in your words) "shorter" than you. Women are not as you say 'less suitable' for administering Amrit and making decisions based on Gurbani and gurmat principles. Women can be just as good leaders. We should stop trying to put them into subordinate so called 'roles'. Anywau if you believe in discrimination then hang out with your taksalis. But don't try to force taksal maryada down the throats of rest of the panth, who already rules women CAN do seva as Panj Pyaras. It's specifically stated in the Panthic maryada. Panthic maryada passes litmus test of Gurbani. Taksali maryada does not.

There are no men or women. Gurbani says Akal Purakh IS the male AND the female. The genders are only temporary and transient. Ultimate reality is ONEness. So say that women are 'not allowed' to do something which males are allowed makes no sense. You are putting limitations on Akal Purakh (in female form). Also sants are still human. They will still put their own opinions and based on their own jatha or samparda teachings. For example if you ask a sant from AKJ background they would most definitely say women are 'allowed'. I have already shown in Gurbani there is nothing saying to restrict women compared to men and place them on lower status. There is however many shabads telling us to see all equally. Amrit sanchar places all initiates on equal level as all drink from same bata. You can't then say women are some lesser version of Khalsa. Same commitment is made by both males and females. If females made a lesser commitment at time of Amrit then you could justify them having a lower status but you can't. Not when they take the same Amrit sanchar and make same commitment. They are to be seen equally. Anything else is discrimination. I have also shown how Jarnail Sigh Ji's own reason can be disputed because of holding contempt for all women for inaction of some who were present that one day. But his argument has other flaws too like those from castes who did not have someone who gave their head or Caucasians there were no Caucasians who have their head etc. But nobody would think twice about selecting a Singh from one of those castes who were not represented in the original five or a Caucasian Singh. And as JasperS Ji said it means if you keep women from this seva that females will never have a say or any authority in big decisions in panth because those decisions are often given to Panj Pyaras. Yes women are allowed. Gurbani supports it, Akal Takht supports it, more importantly Waheguru supports it. It's only ego driven Singhs with a male superiority complex who don't support it.

Chatanga Ji I do t know why you keep bringing up marriage LOL I already answered. It's reproduction and species preservation which drives attraction. That has nothing to do with Amrit or the soul. Yes women can administer Amrit. I already have you example of masands prior to 1699. Masands had full authority to administer Amrit by charan pahul. We know there were women masands. It makes no sense to all of a sudden bar women from something which they had Guru given authority prior. Also as I said since becoming Khalsa is spiritual and puts everyone on same level as equals it makes no sense to treat some as lesser by limiting what they can do in spiritual sense. You may say and want Panj Pyaras always be males but there have been females. If you want to take Amrit from all males the go to taksal. But taksal maryada should not be imposed on rest of the panth because it goes against gurmat principles as laid out in Gurbani. There is nothing in Gurbani saying women have some lower position to men. Also you seem to be trying very hard to tip toe around the fact that male and female both can be living image of the Guru and since Panj Pyaras is essentially representing Guru Ji both genders can do this. It's the jot not the genetalia which matters. Your thinking is typical male mysoginistic thinking. You can't give any good reason except saying women and men are different? Ok physically yes we are but Amrit is not about the physical. It's a spiritual act. If women take same Amrit as men and give their heads symbolically same as men then they can also do seva as Panj Pyaras. Otherwise give women a separate sanchar which is also considered lower. You can't initiate someone and then tell them they will never really be 'fully' Khalsa. Akal Takht agrees on this. What individual Sikhs do is their own issue. Singhs who are keeping Kaurs in a lower position in Sikhi will be held accountable eventually by higher authority. I don't care if mysoginistic Sighs want to go to males for Amrit. But don't stop Kaurs from being able to take Amrit from other Kaurs. I don't care if taksalis stay to themselves and keep their maryada for them only. Even Jarnail singh ji was quoted saying taksal maryada is only for taksalis. But don't force it on rest of panth. Women can choose that way, to avoid associating with taksalis if they feel oppressed. Here is a photo In India. Five females doing seva as Panj Pyaras. And yes it was for sanchar. And no they are not AKJ. So no, hate to bust your bubble but it won't always be (and hasn't always been) only males. Also remember the written history we have usually only deals with notable Amrit sanchars where prominent person took Amrit and were comparably few when thinking of how many sanchars took place. So just because the few writing we have doesn't illustrate any women doing this doesn't mean in the thousands and thousands of other sanchars taking place that were not written about there were likely women, especially in cases where males were scarce because they were away possibly fighting etc. Just because they were not written about doesn't mean it didn't happen. And it's also well known that males tend to leave forgotten female stories out of history anyway. (Just look how many stories about male sants and so few stories written about female sants. It's not because they don't exist. It's because males generally step in limelight all the time to detriment of females.). It's time we stopped treating fellow equal souls as lesser than us because of what body they are in. In reality they are the same light. And please don't bring up marriage again as if you are too stupid to understand the mechanics of procreation and why males and females have to marry, then I can't explain it to you.