Prabhu

I apologize if you feel that I have attacked you. I have respect that you are learning and wish you the best in your process. I will always take a strong stance about hair, because it is sacred. I am confrontational on occasion, so that I may challenge somebody's beliefs. As soon as somebody gets comfortable in their belief that they know better than the Guru, they are slipping away from Gurmat. As soon as that argument is at my door, so to speak, I will act. Nobody wants to hear slander of the Guru, or see disrespect shown to the Khalsa, and for some the continual debate about hair can feel like an attack on Sikhi. Nothing would make me happier than to embrace you as my Khalsa brother. Until then, if you feel like there is an attack coming from me, it is only in the form of challenging some beliefs in the face of the Guru's instruction. Sat Siri Akal!

To clarify, my point in bringing up the party I went to last night, was to emphasize that we are normal and happy people. I participated in many great discussions on Sikhi, shaster vidiya, and yoga. The latter two are subjects I would love to learn more and more about. The more I learn about yoga, and try it, the more I'm convinced it's inline with the physical stamina and conditioning required for a warrior. Anyway, there were so many people with a divine light, who look like saints to me, at that party. Any one of our community get togeters will involve great people, great activities, great discussions, or great meditations. And when we have Gurdwara, I feel that presence that I have only ever felt at the Hari Mandir Sahib. Gurdwara is beyond amazing when everybody is their to sing Gurbani, meditate on the naam, and enjoy the sangat. Whatever "un-Sikh" practices or confusing things people think are prevalent in 3HO are left at home during Gurdwara and it is just a sangat of saintly people, who are all in turbans.

Who cares what other people are doing? You may not be outright disrespecting the Guru, but you cannot claim to be a disciple (Sikh) of the Guru. Maybe somebody who picks and chooses in accordance with their manmat. Guru Gobind Singh stated that it is not the Sikh he likes, but the roop, the form of the Sikh. Of course we live in God's will. The gift that God has given us in this life form is consciousness. God can show us the Guru's path, but if our ego doesn't allow us to accept it, then that is our own undoing.

Here we go again. I'm sorry if I sound sarcastic, but the name thing has been discussed a thousand times. The best discussions are on the Sikhnet discussion boards. If you search the archives you will find a lot of material. Yogi Bhajan wanted his Sikh students to identify themselves as Khalsa first. He wants the Khalsa to permeate every aspect of our lives. When everybody has the name Khalsa, no single person is distinguishable. There are no castes, races, or even genders. As far as having Guru in your name it is just a different spelling. There are many Punjabis who have the name Gurnam, so what is wrong with Guru Nam? Being named after the naam of the Guru is great. I have a friend named GuruJot. When you call him, you are remembering the Guru's divine light. The point about marriage is extremely misrepresentative of 3HO. To get my point across once and for all: 3HO IS NOT LIMITED TO WHITE PEOPLE. We have people of every race. My brother is marrying on Sunday to a girl from Chile (South America). There are white, black, brown, yellow, and any other color Sikh you can think of. There are several white women married to Punjabi men in my community and they have beautiful multi-racial children. As far as sticking with people from 3HO, this is the basics of marriage. You cannot marry somebody who you are incompatible with. If you are a strong proponent of rising in the Amrit Vela, practicing yoga to strengthen your body and prepare you to meditate, meditating on the naam, and living as Khalsa, you will wish to have a partner who thinks the same. I was thinking about this discussion last night when I was at a going away party for a really cool guy from Singapore, who came for the summer. All I could think was, why do people continue to question and write things on the internet? Furthermore, what does it matter if I make any statements, I don't speak for 3HO. I know admitting that there are mistakes in 3HO would offend some people. If anybody here wants to learn about 3HO or "American Sikhs" that are not Punjabi, all they need to do is meet people. I'm sure everybody here could find somebody in 3HO who they could get along with and shares similar ideas on Sikhism. Those apostates, will never agree with me, but you may find a small few in 3HO who agree with you.

To Canadian Jatti: Without personally attacking you I would like to ask rather than condem why you think it is necessary to list your caste? The Guru is very clear on castes. Next I would like to ask why you feel yours or anybody else's excuses supercedes the directive of the Guru? The Guru is very clear on hair. Are you responsible for your actions or are others? If other people with hair offend you, you should have the courage to lead the way, not hide with cut hair. The job excuse has been told a thousand times. Only those who truly have faith in the Guru know that that their support comes from God and that they will always be supported when they side with the Guru and not Capitalism. Sometimes I worry about job security, and then I think "The only security I have is that God is with me at all times." With or without hair you will be supported as God wills it.

Sometimes I "shoot from the hip", so to speak. I have acceptance and appreciation for those who are learning, but too often I find people who think it is acceptable as a Sikh to cut their hair. This I will never agree with. Have you ever read an article in which all Sikhs with hair are referred to as "orthodox" or "extremists"? When truly they are the only Sikhs. A Sikh is a disciple, a student of the Guru. Some people think that you can be a Sikh and cut your hair, as long as you maintain the rest of the dharma to the best of your ability. Unfortunately the most basic principle of being a Sikh is accepting the Guru and the Guru's instructions. Really your hair is the first step, without it you are not a disciple, a learner. Can one conquer their ego? If you can't take the first step towards the Guru, then what is your purpose in claiming yourself a Sikh? My statement about cowards comes from my experience. All those who have at some time claimed to be Sikh and have cut their hair, that I know of, have done it from cowardice. It is a lack of understanding a lot of times, but it is cowardice, fear that they don't fit in, that causes them to cut their hair rather than learn its purpose. To Hari: I have never proven that I'm not up to being a Sikh of Guru Nanak. Guru Gobind Singh is my father and I honor my father each day. All that I've said in that statement is that an apostate cannot claim to follow the dharma (lifestyle) of the Guru. This is true. What I write on a discussion board doesn't show who I really am. I'm keenly aware now that people here don't have a bit of understanding about my true feelings, habits and actions towards others. This is a SIKH discussion board, about AWARENESS right? I thought for once I don't have to be politically correct. Why not write it how it is? Those who cannot accept the Guru's hukam do not walk the Guru's dharma. Sorry if you cut your hair and feel offended by this.

I appreciate your advice, but I'm certainly not angry or bitter. My life is a battlefield, and I combat each attack with strength and clarity. My posts use strong language because we are talking about what I believe in strongly. The ignorance about 3HO often leads to misinformation. The material written against 3HO usually attacks "All that is 3HO" and in a way that includes me. When I look at the sangat in Gurdwara, I see only saints. I cannot think a negative thought about a person in Gurdwara, even if I know all sorts of negative things about them. Mostly though, I know so many incredible people that are in some way associated with 3HO. These are great people who sometimes would feel crushed and disillusioned to find out that "Sikhs" or others are writting attacks about them on the internet. I wrote the post about Verne because he is a nindak and egotist. I would advise all Sikhs to avoid the likes of him and McLeod. They may have some elements of truth in what they write, but most of it is garbage because it comes from the people whose intent is to unravel the sanctity of Sikh Dharma. As far as I'm concerned there is no room for a traitor on the battle field and a mona in the dharma. Page 304: "O chosen people, O self-elect, one who does not publicly affirm his Guru is not a good person; he loses all his profits and capital." This is all I can say to the cowards who cannot accept even a simple hukam from the Guru to maintain their sacred kesh.

I just did a google search on Verne Dusenbery, because I've never heard of him, and all I can say is that I'm not impressed. http://web.hamline.edu/cla/academics/anthr...faculty/van.htm This site will give a self-promoting, self-important, recondite view of his "works". Amongst his "inspiring" words he writes: "The other main intellectual influence on the dissertation was the New Zealand-based historian, W.H. McLeod, the leading figure in Sikh studies." He seems to think that he knows something about Sikhs, and he is heavily influenced by McLeod??????? Further he created the following website about "Sikhs". Without even entering the website you'll find a central picture of two mona "Sikhs". He obviously knows nothing. http://www.hamline.edu/~vdusenbery/ Further on this site you will find written "Hew McLeod, the foremost western historian of the Sikh religion, graciously agreed to contribute the opening chapter for this volume." When I was a child I thought anybody who even knows about Sikhs would want to be a Sikh. I couldn't understand how anybody would not want to be a Sikh. I'm still convinced, as an adult, that any so-called scholar or anybody who has done any kind of research into the Sikh dharma, would become Khalsa if they knew anything. Conversely those "researchers," "intellectuals," or anything else that don't embrace the Khalsa, truly know nothing about Sikhism.

I'll start this post by reiterating that I'm not blinded to the problems of 3HO. I see the problems and if there's something I can do about them, then I will take action. If there's nothing I can do, I ignore them and let others deal with their problems. I'd also like to reiterate, however, that I have never met a single person who has left 3HO and is not totally bitter. Whereas I can give a neutral opinion, in which I credit 3HO for it's good points and don't shy away from it's bad points, those who have left cannot see any good in anything 3HO including the people associated with 3HO. The man that you are in contact with, jtSingh may be the same man I was referring to in my other post, who was sent away from 3HO because he was the head of an ashram and stole money from that ashram. << My most serious concerns are that; a) YB is no role model, but instead the ultimate NRI success story that many 3HO singhs and kaurs have not educated themselves in itihas, gurbani, etc and as such have been sitting ducks for crap c) That the communal ashram lifestyle in a western society is a breeding ground for abuse and psychological problems d) The seriously questionnable system of sending 3HO kids to the dehra dun school, now miri piri academy at a vulnberable age e) The dubious milkshake of sikhi and new age philosophy f) and MY GOD the belief that bhangra is somehow spiritual!!! Please just watch one of the many soft porn bhangra videos out now brrrrrrraaaa >> a)Yogi Bhajan has done a lot of good for a lot of people, I credit him for that. He has never done anything to hurt me, but has rather helped me in my spiritual journey. I know also that there are many false acusations against him. He tests many people. He likes to say "poke, provoke, and elevate." A lot of the people in 3HO need some kind of wake up call to really get to where he expects us to be, so he challenges them. Those who would do anything for him, shouldn't later be upset because he hurt them. If you can't handle his tests, don't let him have that kind of power over you, it's that simple. Though if you can't handle his tests as your accepted teacher, I can't imagine you being successful as an unwavering Khalsa. So what if Yogi Bhajan isn't a role model, he always says that we need to be 10 times greater than he. Everything that he has taught me has been good for me, and I feel like I should respect him enough to be 10 times greater than the 100% positive experience that he has given to me. This is true. (Thanks to Hari for telling me the meaning of itihas, because I wasn't clear.) All I can say is that ignorance is like the worst plague of humanity. If an individual doesn't take responsibility for their own education can 3HO or Yogi Bhajan be blamed? After all Yogi Bhajan never ceases to speak about consciousness and conscious living. I would think that his students would pick up on that and take it on their own shoulders to educate themselves. I can tell you that the second generation of 3HO Sikhs are strong Sikhs and will always continue to learn Gurmat and strive to follow the true life of a Khalsa. c) I can't entirely agree with this. In the West we have nuclear families, an ashram is just like an extended family in India. However, I don't know where people get their information from, but as far as I know there is no such ashram like the early days. I know of NO place where 3HO Sikhs live in one building as an ashram. Where I live, many Sikhs have homes near the Gurdwara, just like any other neighborhood in the US. d) I agree with you on this. I can't imagine sending your child half way around the world when they are very young. However each child and each parent is different. Before Miri Piri Academy the were a number of abuses at the schools in India, however Miri Piri changed that. I have visited Miri Piri and I was so thoroughly impressed. There is so much love and devotion at that school. The kids always rise in the Amrit Vela and they all wear turbans as part of their uniform. It is strict but fair. Actually when I was there, a few students were just like spoiled American teenagers in the US (i.e. I thought some needed a little more discipline). When I have children I would love to send them to India to further their education and I really hope that Miri Piri Academy continues to be an excellent institution. My children will decide at what age they feel like going. e) Some of it is dubious and some of it isn't. I'm not really into much new age stuff, but a lot of times I can see it's place. If people in the community want to do their thing I don't mind. At one point last year, somebody did some new age thing during a gurdwara somewhere and Bibiji (Yogi Bhajan's wife) admonished them. She even came to our Gurdwara and said "if you want to do that stuff at home fine, but don't bring it into the Gurdwara." I was a little upset at whatever person was doing this, but at the end all I could do was laugh. I just thought "these 3HO hippies when will they ever learn?" I just think they will be the first to leave when Yogi Bhajan dies (those who don't get it), and we will be stronger and better for it. f) I have never really heard this, but I can tell you most of us don't have access to Punjabi media (music, videos, television, etc.) I could almost guarantee to you that most 3HO people are unaware that modern Bhangra is like softcore pornography. Most 3HO people think of Bhangra as the traditional folk dance of the harvest season in Punjab. The only thing I can think that you're thinking about is probably Yogi Bhajan saying that Bhangra is great exercise or something like that. Nobody believes it to be somehow spiritual and very few people know that it has been so degraded.

I wasn't done with my post, I accidentally hit submit instead of quote: Bollywood does the same to women as hollywood except worse. Almost every Bollywood movie involves a man chasing a woman, a woman saying no, no, no, and then later realizing the errors of her ways. Where I come from, women are treated with respect. Furthermore any woman in America can invoke the law to get fair treatment if she is not already receiving it. This debate has gone on before, it's really not worth it. What my point is, is that Sikhs must be pluralistic. If we limit Sikhism to India, we leave so many out. My commentaries about what might have happened with my parents was to illustratate the point that you cannot approach a non-Indian with standard Indian culture. They generally don't get it. Most Americans don't understand the Punjabi culture, but many understand the concept of universal fellowship and the worship of one God. Many Punjabis that I meet do not seperate Sikhism from being Punjabi and therefore have no medium in which to approach non-Punjabis. If I were a Christian, with no clue about the Punjabi culture, would it be wise for me to go to the Punjab and teach my religion in English? We need Sikhs from every culture and every corner of the world. Our common committment to the Guru will unify us. WaheGuru Ji Ka Khalsa, WaheGuru Ji Ki Fateh!

One Sikh was killed, this is not acceptable, however after the assasination of Indira Ghandi, thousands of Sikhs in India were killed. There is no justification for either.

I have not had the opportunity to learn Punjabi, where I'm from Spanish is far more useful. I hope someday to learn Punjabi, but it is not at the forefront of my activities now. I think the best way to begin learning from the Guru Granth Sahib is study the list of most common words. I forget which site it's on, but you can find it on the internet. I take issue with this statement. If English can't bring forth the true meaning, than how can Katha in Punjabi? As you have pointed out that the Siri Guru Granth Sahib is written in several languages. God knows all the languages right? If it is our karma we will learn the meaning of the Granth through our native language. For instance, Ek Ong Kar, a simple statement yet at the same time complex. If I knew Punjabi, would I understand Ek Ong Kar any better? Does it matter what language I conceptualize it in? or does it matter how I undertsand it when I meditate on Ek Ong Kar? If I knew Punjabi, would my thoughts then be in Punjabi? I imagine my thoughts would be the same and my intellectual understanding of Ek Ong Kar would be the same. In mentioning the treatment of women in India, I was making a commentary on the pervasive culture. The negative aspects of American culture which you have mentioned are not so pervasive. In India you will find that women aren't even allowed to do seva at the Hari Mandir Sahib, whereas in America you will find that women are allowed to do anything and that Sikh women know it and enjoy that freedom. The Sikh Dharma is not exclusive, if we cannot learn to communicate the message of the Guru in multiple languages we'll be doomed. Not every person who has the potential to be Sikh can learn Punjabi, but all Sikhs can learn from the Siri Guru Granth Sahib. India has much to offer, but certainly real Sikhism exists anywhere a Sikh is. I mentioned that American Sikhs know that the real source is the Guru, not to suggest that only American Sikhs know this, but to suggest that they know this whether or not they have the opportunity to go to India. Couldn't we also argue that the real source is Pakistan? Half of the Punjab is there.

It may take me a while to find out about Yogi Bhajan's teacher, but I'll try. As far as the origins of Kundalini Yoga, I imagine it has been around since the dawn of the human species, at least since the dawn of yoga. Kundalini Yoga is the yoga of awareness. It is a complete yoga, the fundamentals of all other schools of yoga are contained in Kundalini yoga. I imagine that Kundalini yoga may have been the first yoga, since it is complete. Other yogas concentrate on more specific things like just the breath, or just the posture, or just the mudra, but Kundalini encompasses all of this and is intended to prepare the body and mind for meditation (naam simran). Although I'm very novice in Kundalini yoga and don't really practice it myself, I can appreciate it because it does not detract from the basic Sikh principle of naam simran but enhances and enables many to reach naam simran.

India is not the only place for the real source. I was never so upset at the actions of Sikhs until my first trip to India. Whereas I mostly had a great time in India and met a lot of great Sikhs. The Sikhs that have offended me more than any others were in India. Where I live in the US we have a branch of Punjabi University. With a sole professor. He is an expert on Sikhism and has taught the community so much. A number of Americans who have never been to India or can't afford to go are learning Gurmat and Punjabi from him. With the exception of the atmosphere, anything that India can offer a Sikh can be written on the internet, or imported abroad. The majority of American Sikhs that are not of Punjabi descent know that the real source is the Guru. My mother would never have become Sikh if she saw the way women are treated in India. My father would have never been Sikh if somebody couldn't explain to him in English the principles of Gurmat. Likewise I would have left a long time ago, had I not benefitted from many great American Sikhs. I hope that all Sikhs spend more time with the Guru.

This isn't the first thread I've read about 3HO and I'm sure it won't be the last. I've read a number of threads all over different discussion boards. It's always the same stuff. I try to write on the internet so that some people can get some semblence of the truth. There are a number of people in 3HO who live in denial and try to say that nothing bad has ever happened or that Yogi Bhajan is perfect. I would never say either of these, as I have questioned everything in my life. When most people question the Sikh dharma they begin to study what it means and it usually leaves people as stronger Sikhs. When I came across the vast array of materials about 3HO on the internet I tried to get as many answers as I could and I still try to get answers. The reason I say that you will get a semblence of truth from me is that I claim allegiance to the Guru and the Khalsa first. I will call a spade a spade. I am not loyal to all that is 3HO and I won't sugar coat anything. The writings of former members of 3HO are for the most part made up or exaggerated. They will think of a time when they felt abused and then take it to the extreme and even make up events that never actually happened. There is one website where a former member of 3HO mentions that he was kicked out by Yogi Bhajan and that he still remains spiritual. What he doesn't mention is that he ran off with thousands of dollars of the community's (ashram's) money. I have read some of their writings and thought "Oh yeah, I've seen that happening." And then I'll think those poor fools, I can't believe they thought that was reality. Like people will go on and on about wearing white clothes and say how it is mandatory and people will put pressure on you if you don't. When I read this kind of stuff I think "Those poor fools, what made them think that they could only wear white?" Furthermore, what kind of spineless, brainless people are these who would follow something they don't undertsand? Anyway enough about those former members and their not-even half-truths. On to the other writings. It is quite appearant that people on this forum and most other forums have little idea what 3HO is about. It is evident by their writings and the numerous other threads where people continue to quote slanderous and blasphemous writings. I don't mean they're blasphemous to 3HO. If it's not blatantly obvious to you, look closer, most of these people are slandering the Sikh dharma as well. Here are some misconceptions from this forum: <<3HO is essentially a 'closed-shop' (say through their International Peace Prayer Day and other exclusive events). >> This is far from the truth. 3HO is opened to everybody and Peace Prayer Day is the opposite of an exclusive event. People from around the world are invited. It is an event many people in 3HO are proud of, because it is an event where we honor peace and those making contributions to it. I'll say it again: anybody can attend any event hosted by 3HO. <> This looks like writing from the Rick Ross website. It looks like an attempt to falsify all of these practices because they make money or are associated with some people in 3HO. Well I don't know much about Sat Nam Rasayan, but I can tell you that only the name was manufactured. The rest is based on ancient traditional shamanic healing. There are still many medicine men and women in the Americas and their knowledge can still be accessed. I don't know what breathwalk is, but yogic cuisine cannot be called manufactured. Any cuisine that assists a yogic practice is valid. As I have written before, the people who participate in these kinds of the things are the people who really believe in them. They are the people who make a living off of these practices and wish to expand them for the betterment of humanity. If you don't believe them and don't wish to pay for them, then don't. But don't go on about technologies being false, simply because you don't understand them. I don't understand them either, but I know that there is truth in everything, just as God is contained in everything and God is truth. <<can we expect yet more Sikh sects developing from 3HO and ties being cut from the other sangats should 3HO puritanical attitudes become more manifest ("our women are more involved"..."YB said that 40 Pauris of the Anand Sahib or only 5...etc etc). >> I guess speaking your fears may help you to overcome them. This just seems ludicrous. I don't know what "3HO puritanical attitudes" are, but they will never take away anything from the sangat which is unified by the Guru. Yogi Bhajan has taught that women are our equal. If Sikhs would listen to the Guru, he wouldn't need to reiterate the point. Furthermore, Anand Sahib is 40 pauris, if you read only 5, you are being lazy with your committment to the Guru. <<it only breaks down when they begin speaking of Raag Bilawal being powerful and raising one's Kundalini Energy>> This must be a joke. Kundalini is mentioned one time in the Siri Guru Granth Sahib (page 1402): "The Kundalini rises in the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation; through the Word of the Guru, they enjoy the Lord of Supreme Bliss." I don't know why you're mentioning a specific raag, but I find it interesting that you can't conceptualize your Kundalini rising when listening to Gurbani Kirtan. In closing, If you don't understand about 3HO it is better to ask neutral questions, rather than writing false opinions and reading slanderous poison. I'll give you an example. I don't know much about AKJ, but I have read some good and bad things on the internet. However I wouldn't go on the internet writing about certain practices of theirs and calling them false. Neither would I ask leading questions. Neither would I post quotes from those who slander them. If I wanted to learn more of their practices I would ask a variety of people associated with AKJ. I wouldn't ask one or two people and use my limited or misunderstood conception of what they say to base my whole opinion on everybody associated with AKJ. Let us unite as Khalsa. We are all humans and we will all have our differences. Why don't we live in cherdi kala and accept that most Sikhs, no matter who they identify with, are here to do good. Why don't we consider the contributions of others and not the controversies?