SUKHBIR

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, Veer N30, Having returned to this forum after some time (owing to work commitments). I noticed you have closed the thread. It struck me that this is not an uncommon occurrence. I understand the unacceptable nature of postings which are of a personal and abusive nature, these contribute nothing to the discussion and inevitably lead the debate into a exchange of repetitive 'tit for tat'. This leads you to close the thread, understandably. However I believe that it is only some individuals who consistently find it easier to reply with a personal or insulting remark. Look through the posting in question as a example and you will see a common correlation between certain posters and their avoidance of issues of relevance by introducing insults or irrelevant remarks designed to critique the poster rather than the argument. This leads to reaction,counter-reaction etc.etc. I did wish to respond to one of the two replies to my previous posting, the other post was pathetically undeserving of a response from anyone. Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh Receiving 'Tankhaah' for his action's was the response of his (to use your description) 'accusers', placing the onus for reaction clearly on him, if he has refused to defend his actions despite 'conviction' then this is by any sane measure a acceptance of guilt, think of it in this manner if he were charged and convicted by a court of law the right of appeal would rest with the defendant and not the prosecution. The question of 'facing his accusers' is incorrectly assumed by you to be my position. When the 'Akal Takht' issued a hukamnamah barring the Sikhs from participation in the GOI 'kar seva' on July 11th 1984, It was unequivocal in content, barring Sikhs from taking part in what amounted to a 'sarkari seva' absolutely contrary to the 'labour of love' that is 'kar seva', according to Sikh tradition. Despite this on July 17th 1984 Santa Singh arrived with three buses, packed with some 'nihangs'and congress workers under army protection and parked them in front of the hospital gate, after some time these buses were escorted by the army to Burj Akali Phula Singh following 'ardasa' Santa initiated the 'sarkari seva'. He was issued a 'show-cause' notice that evening requesting him to present a written explanation of his actions by 4pm on the 18th July. He did not attend, nor did he send any written explanation either of his actions or why he was unable to submit any explanation. On the 19th July he was issued a further notice to present himself before the Akal Takhat Sahib on July 21st at 8am, he did not attend. The ecclesiastical court of Sri Akal Takhat Sahib decided to allow a further day for Santa to respond, finally the hukamnamah excommunicating Santa Singh from the Sikh panth was issued on the 22nd July 1984, it was published in the press on July 23rd 1984. So you see there was both the will and offered opportunity on the part of the 'accusers' to 'face him' it was in fact he that balked from such a confrontation, the conviction of a defendant that refuses to attend a hearing is consistent under any system of law you may care to mention. A conviction in absence does almost uniformly allow leave to appeal, but this is entirely the responsibility of the defendant, given that this process was carried out under the aegis of what is best described as a ecclesiastical court the responsibility for defence or appeal lies firmly with the defendant again this is consistent with any recognised system of law. This refusal to defend his actions, could be cited as acknowledgement that their indefensible? You may wish to read the sentence you have written above back to yourself. '..it is the prerogative of the accusers to do so..'. Well if it's their prerogative and you contend that he has not been questioned, then the 'accusers' are merely exercising the prerogative to which you claim they have a right. It is my contention however that he was 'brought to justice' for his connivance with the GOI in their illegitimate 'kar seva', hence the 'Tankhaah', ultimately it is not the 17 years in 'exile' that will be his punishment. The 'real' punishment for his actions will be his historical legacy, a question I have posed many times and to which I am yet to receive an answer to is, looked at in a historical comparative his actions would have been equal to a Sikh, regardless of grandeur of title and position(if anything all the worse for it) accepting money and assistance from Ahmed Shah Abdali for reconstruction after his destruction of Harminder Sahib whilst allowing his tobacco smoking, shoe wearing and in the case of the Indian army alcohol drinking soldiers to mill around the complex whilst enforcing a curfew with orders to shoot on sight, in the surrounding city. **Hypothetically speaking, if there had been an individual who had carried out such actions from that period, how do you think he would be remembered by the Sikh community? What words do you think may be used to describe him or his action's?** It is the answer to the question above which will provide a eternal punishment. Furthermore unless reality overcomes their provincial nature, neo-nihangs will carry the actions of this man as a constant liability. Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, I have been away from this or any forum for quite some time, owing to other commitments. Primary to anything else what is needed is an apology, how dare you write that sacrifices were made for 'nothing'? Did you lose anyone close to you? Friend, relative, brother,father,sister,mother?? To qualify you to make such a comment? You style your 'web-handle' upon the name of a weapon yet you lack any understanding of its responsibility....'all for nothing?' Sewa is its own reward, take back your comments now, lest you continue to add insult to injury. Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, Since you have quoted me please read the quote properly, it reads 'IF Santa Singh wishes....' the operative word being 'IF' I do do not say there is any compulsion for him to do so. Also the quote you use is a response to beast, who ask's . My view is 'IF' he wishes to counter his critics it is his perogative to do so, not the responsibility of others to question him. . In the interests of saving you embarrassment in the future, monthly meetings, car or otherwise take place once a month, hence the title. . From previous encounters I know your inclined to a display of 'sour grapes', at about this point in the discussion, as ever you don't fail to disappoint. Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, . I don't know whether anyone is waiting with bated breath, the reply is hardly likely to be a revelation to anyone. . . So that is agreed, if Santa Singh wishes to present his version of events then surely it is his responsibility to do so, if he does not choose to present a view of events contrary to that which is generally accepted, then it must be assumed he has no clarification to make. Ultimately he could not hope to deny that the 'kar seva' was carried out under his auspices at the behest of the GOI, the record is unequivocal. Although futile, the best he could hope for in this regard is to attempt to rationalise his action's. Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh

Waheguru ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, . Yes, beast the thread title related to Santa Singh and his actions following 'bluestar', but it did so quite specifically, his acceptance of the 'Tankhaah' and his official return to the fold, based upon his acceptance of wrong doing after a number of years. Narsingha did not accept the events as described above, initially his posting did relate to this specifically,as was the purpose of the thread, but if you take a look back through the thread it was in answer to this post, -- -------------------------------- Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, . It may be inconvenient for you, undoubtedly you wish that the actions of Santa Singh were not common knowledge, but as no study of Santa Singh would be complete without discussing his collaboration with the GOI conspired 'kar seva', no discussion of the neo-nihangs would be complete without referring to Santa Singh. Bear in mind also that his name appears in the title of this very thread. Rather than expressing your sorrow that people have a irritating habit of scrutinising the behaviour of individuals, here is a novel approach for you, try defending Santa Singh's actions. This may be akin to flogging the proverbial horse, but your no stranger to that pursuit. He and consequently 'neo-nihangs' will never be able to escape historical record and try as you may you cannot wish it away. Of course I can take it as given that the answer to this question as any other is soon to appear along with 'evidence' on one site or another. . Speaks of what exactly? You may think that such a comment is in itself enough to cast an aspersion but you are, not for the first time I hasten to add, mistaken. If you have any reason to cast doubt upon Prof. Sangat Singh's reputation than I suggest you post it here. Further despite your apparent unsubstantiated questioning of Prof. Sangat Singh as a source, the quote which I posted is neither a commentary or assessment of Santa Singh, it is merely a historic record of events running up to Santa Singh carrying out the 'kar seva' at the request of the GOI. Is their any part of the historical record, as recounted through the quote that you can dispute? Since the sequence of events itself as contained within the quote is available from multiple sources, I look forward to your answer. The questions are very clear indeed, did Santa Singh carry out the 'kar seva' at the behest of the GOI? I assume you admit this? In that case perhaps you would be kind enough to answer a further question*. Looked at in a historical comparative his (Santa Singhs) actions would have been equal to a Sikh, regardless of grandeur of title and position(if anything all the worse for it) accepting money and assistance from Ahmed Shah Abdali for reconstruction after his destruction of Harmandir Sahib whilst allowing his tobacco smoking, shoe wearing and in the case of the Indian army alcohol drinking soldiers to mill around the complex whilst enforcing a curfew with orders to shoot on sight, in the surrounding city. **Hypothetically speaking, if there had been an individual who had carried out such actions from that period, how do you think he would be remembered by the Sikh community? What words do you think may be used to describe him or his action's?** Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh --------------------------------------------------- that he felt compelled to write what you see below, why he wrote this rather than respond to the post....I will leave it to you to draw your own conclusions. . ------------------------------------------------------- this is clearly not a response to the previous post and entirely irrelevant to the thread, his post deviates off topic, his is not the first in this thread but he does 'bring in to play' the events of 84 in their broadest terms by referring to an album that was created as a reminder and tribute of that entire period. So it is indeed Narsingha that brought the issues of 84 in their entirety into this thread so by his own criteria he is therefore the 'lunatic fringe', it is this that I believe is the point being made by 'Sikh princess'. Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh

Waheguru ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, You really should stop judging other's by your own shortcomings, (FYI) I wrote most of the post at my monthly car club meeting, outside in the glorious sunshine. I assure you it was neither time consuming nor an effort, you may find responding to a question is far less fatiguing than avoiding one. I responded to every point you raised even though you refuse to answer a single question that I put to you. As for it being a 'huge' reply, the word your groping for is comprehensive, but there again why should I except you to recognise such a thing. . Am I controlling you? I think not, I am afraid you will have to look elsewhere for the 'master' that pulls your strings. . Ah, a refreshing change of tact then? Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, . There is truth and there is that which is untrue, the Sikh history referred to within this thread is of a recent period and therefore wholly empirical. The fact that it is consistent from multiple sources only reinforces this fact. It is not my truth but instead a matter of record and no amount of subjective opinion can change that, which is why you avoid answering any questions on the subject. My 'exploits' on this site have not drawn criticism from anyone other than yourself or your ilk, which is to be excepted, uncomfortable truth's are usually met with a degree of protest. If my posting on this site has been contradictory to the purpose of the site I am yet to hear of yet. Perhaps you should be looking closer to home, I have not to date received any warning or direction from the administrators, you cannot claim the same. . My purpose is neither to defame nor slander, rather than continuously applying these words as a response to any and all questioning perhaps you can present examples from my post that are either slanderous or defamatory. Hatred is a strong word and I think it would be more accurate to say that it is your integrity that is being questioned, it is not hateful to be sceptical. In this 'venture' (creating scepticism) you have been entirely successful without help from any third party, sincerely are you really the best 'spokesperson' that your 'group' is able to muster, or are your frequent 'faux pas' intentional? As to your final point, sorry to disappoint you but I believe you overestimate your ability by quite some margin, it is really rather effortless countering someone in a position as untenable as yours. . . I was hopeful that following our previous parley resulting in you threatening to leave this site, you would make good use of your time away and either find the answers to the innumerable questions left unanswered by yourself or at least hone your debating skill's by some degree. It would seem that I was over optimistic on both counts. You have deflected all relevant questions, instead you attempt to avoid the issue by raising previous thread's. Since you are unable to respond to the questions of others as means of demonstration I will respond to yours. The only way that the Sikhs will be able to undo the years of GOI propaganda that portrayed the Sikhs as terrorist's both domestically and internationally is by raising awareness of the truth. The portrayal of Sikhs as terrorists by india, is not a unique phenomenon. Repressive state's that have sought to subjugate people(s) demands have traditionally employed tactics to malign them or their cause, whatever happens to be considered the most heinous label of the time is employed, once the term communist would suffice to create fear and loathing and in recent time's the word 'terrorist' is in vogue. Indeed Nelson Mandela and his ANC party were both cited terrorist and terrorist organisation respectively. The world only started to question the labels imposed by the South African state when they became increasingly aware of the behaviour of the state and its role in the creation of these 'terrorists'. It is not, as you suggest for Sikhs to deny the armed struggle and their great martyrs who gave their all for a just cause, for fear of being branded a terrorist, on the contrary we must raise the worlds awareness as to indian state terrorism that was responsible for the Sikhs taking up a armed resistance in the first place. We may recall that violent and murderous states quite commonly justify their actions as 'counter-terrorism': for example, the Nazis fighting partisan resistance. Remember also that the right to self determination is enshrined in international law '....that nothing could prejudice the right to self determination, freedom and independence, as derived from the charter of the United Nations, of people forcibly deprived of the right...particularly peoples under colonial and racist regimes and foreign occupation or other forms of colonial domination,to support the right of these peoples to struggle to this end and to seek and receive support...' After your suggestion that Sikhs should, through fear of being branded terrorists, deny the armed struggle and its martyrs you move onto the subject of assassinations. Simply, if you condemn the action's of Bhai Satwant Singh and Bhai Beant Singh then you also condemn the actions of Bhai Udham Singh. Should you condemn those that sought justice from the likes of gobind ram a police 'officer' who as well as being a prolific torturer and murderer was fond of forcing his prisoners to drink his urine, commenting that you have drank the amrit of Gobind Singh now drink the 'amrit' of Gobind Ram, then you are also condeming Bhai Sukha Singh and Bhai Methab Singh for punishing massa rangar. Now you may be willing to deny these 'mahaan jodhi' but I as well as the vast majority of Sikhs are not. In reference to your further accusation, racial intolerance is not promoted by raising awareness of the events of the past twenty years nor is it racially intolerant to commemorate the martyrs of the Sikh nation. Is the observance of the martyrdom of Guru Arjan Dev Ji or Guru Teg Bahadur ji fostering racial intolerance between Sikhs and muslims? Incidentally this argument was the very one used by the GOI to present the issue of Panjab as one of communal strife between hindus and Sikhs when in reality it was an entirely political creation. To read that armed struggle is simply a case of promoting physical violence towards others is not a comment that I would except to encounter on a 'Sikh website', do I really have to relay how the use of physical force in the face of tyranny is justified? It seems you neo-nihangs are more radical than I thought, firstly you condemn the actions of men who are held in the highest esteem within Sikh history and then question the right to resort to force, I am truly astonished. All I can suggest here is please look at the precedents, even the most basic perusal of Sikh history will clarify this point. . . Any organisation or individual for that matter, that requires a number of years to formulate their opinion on events that took place twenty years ago must be viewed with suspicion. Your comments above relating to how Sikhs should present themselves in order to avoid being labelled as terrorist's is very telling. If escaping persecution is your first priority then consider this, Balbir Singh Sodhi killed in the aftermath of 09/11 was killed by his assailant not because he perceived him to be a Sikh terrorist but because the ignoramus thought he looked like a 'rag head'(americanism relates to arabs islamist terror etc.), by your reasoning then our only sanctuary is to change our appearance, for if we can turn our back and deny our history and principles to save ourselves then why not our appearance? Your reasoning is that Sikhs should present themselves in a manner that is palatable for any given audience, regard for the truth is by this method at best secondary at worst scant. This is, no doubt the same methodology you resort to when presenting opinion and 'evidence' on your site. The creation of your opinion is not based on fact or even on principled reasoning but instead on what you consider to be most attractive to the reader, I contend this is the very reason that we have been waiting so long for you to manufacture a response to the many questions put to you regarding 84. By your reasoning Sikhs could escape persecution as terrorists by denying fundamental principles like upholding the truth and standing defiant in the face of tyranny, if you advocate such thinking should we really hold out much hope for your version of the events of 1984? . . In the same way that I was critical of the veiled threats you made against some posters on this site I am equally critical of those who may be threatening you, if indeed this is actually taking place. Personally I think you present a minor threat to the young, impressionable and uninformed but your certainly far from being a major threat, assuming of course these death threats are not just a product of a paranoid and overactive imagination. One further word of advice I would offer is rather than requesting ferrero rocher you should instead be asking for a very large container of salt, so that 'you' can add a generous pinch to everything 'you' write. Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, . It may be inconvenient for you, undoubtedly you wish that the actions of Santa Singh were not common knowledge, but as no study of Santa Singh would be complete without discussing his collaboration with the GOI conspired 'kar seva', no discussion of the neo-nihangs would be complete without referring to Santa Singh. Bear in mind also that his name appears in the title of this thread and so is entirely relevant, not 'dragged up' as you contend. Rather than perversely expressing sorrow that people have a habit of scrutinising the behaviour of prominent figures, here is a novel approach for you, try defending Santa Singh's actions. This may be akin to flogging the proverbial horse, but your no stranger to that pursuit. He and consequently 'neo-nihangs' will never be able to escape historical record and try as you may you cannot wish it away. . Speaks of what exactly? You may think that such a comment is in itself enough to cast an aspersion but you are, not for the first time I hasten to add, mistaken. If you have any reason to cast doubt upon Prof. Sangat Singh's reputation than I suggest you post it here. Further despite your apparent unsubstantiated questioning of Prof. Sangat Singh as a source, the quote which I posted is neither a commentary or assessment of Santa Singh, it is merely a historic record of events running up to Santa Singh carrying out the 'kar seva' at the request of the GOI. Is their any part of the historical record, as recounted through the quote that you can dispute? Since the sequence of events itself as contained within the quote is available from multiple sources, I look forward to your answer. The questions are very clear indeed, did Santa Singh carry out the 'kar seva' at the behest of the GOI? I assume you admit this? In that case perhaps you would be kind enough to answer a further question*. Looked at in a historical comparative his (Santa Singhs) actions would have been equal to a Sikh, regardless of grandeur of title and position(if anything all the worse for it) accepting money and assistance from Ahmed Shah Abdali for reconstruction after his destruction of Harmandir Sahib whilst allowing his tobacco smoking, shoe wearing and in the case of the Indian army alcohol drinking soldiers to mill around the complex whilst enforcing a curfew with orders to shoot on sight, in the surrounding city. **Hypothetically speaking, if there had been an individual who had carried out such actions from that period, how do you think he would be remembered by the Sikh community? What words do you think may be used to describe him or his action's?** Of course I can take it as given that the answer to these question's as any other put to you is soon to appear along with 'evidence' on one site or another. Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, I never did receive any answer's to the question posed (see asterix below), any suggestions gratefully received, anyway I thought this may be of help to the discussion, full mail can be found at http://sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness/vie...70&start=30 ....The 'nindia' of Santa Singh is a bit more complicated, there is no direct accusation save for the writer's opinion that the people that are represented by Santa Singh are to his mind not Nihangs, by his definition, as to what his definition may be is again a matter for the writer. I will say this much in regard to Santa Singh, his collaboration with the Indian Government following bluestar in direct contravention of Sikh interests is no secret and led to his excommunication from the panth, a punishment which he accepted after some seventeen years in 'exile'. Looked at in a historical comparative his actions would have been equal to a Sikh, regardless of grandeur of title and position(if anything all the worse for it) accepting money and assistance from Ahmed Shah Abdali for reconstruction after his destruction of Harminder Sahib whilst allowing his tobacco smoking, shoe wearing and in the case of the Indian army alcohol drinking soldiers to mill around the complex whilst enforcing a curfew with orders to shoot on sight, in the surrounding city. **Hypothetically speaking, if there had been an individual who had carried out such actions from that period, how do you think he would be remembered by the Sikh community? What words do you think may be used to describe him or his action's?** Excerpt taken from Prof.Sangat Singh's 'The Sikhs In History, a millennium study' Prof.Sangat Singh wrote: "...Buta Singh's inability to meet the conditions of withdrawal of troops from the Golden Temple complex laid down by Baba Kharak Singh, to undertake the 'kar seva', reconstruction of damaged shrine by the voluntary service of the community, which was in the best traditions of Sikhism, was glaring......Lt.Gen.Tirath Singh Oberoi landed in amritsar on July 13, to negotiate the kar seva..while the army insisted on keeping a picket at darshani deori,...New Delhi's duplicity was obvious from the fact that this period of negotiations was utilised to transport a fleet of buses of Santa Singh's Nihangs from Bhatinda, 300kms away, guarded by Punjab Police commandos, Indira's special confidant and K.C.Pant flew from Delhi on the evening of July 16th, and conveyed the move to the army brass. The Generals now unabashedly told Akalis that Indira had decided that they were still untrustworthy and the man dubbed Indira's 'favourite nihang', Baba Santa Singh had been brought in for the kar seva.....The five high preists struck immediately and issued a hukamnamah barring the Sikhs from participation in the kar seva without their sanction. Santa Singh refused summons and was immediately excommunicated....": Following the demolition of the Indira sponsored re-construction of the Akal Takht it was pulled down to allow it to be re-built by the Sikhs, this time with legitimacy... Prof.Sangat Singh wrote: "The rubble of the demolished Akal Takht yeilded a rich crop of meat bones, earthen peices of 'chillums', razor blades etc- all thrown by troops sacrilegiously into the building material at the time of construction under auspices of Baba Santa Singh.": I will refrain from personal comment on the actions of this man and leave it to the reader to draw his/her own conclusions. I will say that your perceived 'nindia' of him, by the album producers, if there has been any, is probably related to the episode above. lalleshvari wrote: "Baba Santa Singh is surely to be considered the jathedar of the SIkh qaum" Baba Nihal Singh A.S.KANG wrote: ps: i love that quote baba nihal singh. and fauge u da man too!!! Is this the same Baba Nihal Singh, whom along with late Baba Mangal Singh Satlani and Baba Bikramjit Singh were also excommunicated for taking part in Indira's Kar seva?.... Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, N30 as requested, You can send your donations now and there are some stories of the brothers and sister's these good people help. Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh Gur-Aasra Trust, #3133, Phase-7, Mohali, Punjab The Trust has got its own website www.guraasra.com. You can get more information about the trust from the website. 106)- Amanjot Kaur D/o Shaheed Dr. Sukhchain Singh Age - 13 years Class - VIII Brief History:- Her father, the only son of his parents, was a professional doctor in his village-Maan Khaire, Distt. Gurdaspur. He was blamed that he used to treat the militants. Due to this reason, he was third degree tortured by Punjab Police infront of his whole family including Amanjot at his residence itself. When he was badly injured and was near to death, he was shooted somewhere outside. His dead body was also not given to his family members. Not only this, one of her cousin brothers and two uncles were also killed likely by Punjab Police in different incidents. It was a sign of hatred towards Sikh Community that these incidents took place. There was no earning member left in her family. Amanjot, with her sister, brothers and mother is living in Gur Aasra Trust for the last three years. She is very good in her studies and recites Gurbani Kirtan and Dhadhi Varan. At present, she is studying in Sant Isher Singh Public School under the guardianship of Gur Aasra Trust (Regd.) 107)- Rajmeet Kaur D/o Shaheed S. Sarabjeet Singh Age - 14 years Class - X Brief History:- Being strongly affected by the Operation Bluestar (attack on Darbar Sahib), her father became a militant. After sometime, he became a great Lt.General of Khalistan Liberation Army. He was martyred in a Police encounter on February 26, 1992 near Dhaliwal, Gurdaspur . Her family faced a lot of problems after his death. Related to Ramgarhia Community, they have not got any land or any other source of income. Rajmeet is living in Gur Aasra Trust with her mother for the last three years. She is good in her studies. She also recites Gurbani Kirtan (especially Dhadhi Varan) and plays Gatka well. At present, she is studying in Sant Isher Singh Public School under the guardianship of Gur Aasra Trust (Regd.). Preet Kaur D/o Late S. Mahander Singh Age - 19 years Class - B.A. Ist year, Diploma in Computers Brief History:- She belongs to a nice reputed and a prosperous family. But their whole business and property were ruined during the Anti-Sikh Riots of 1984. Her parents also became the victims of the riots. These were not actually riots but was pre-planned conspiracy to finish the Sikh Community. For sometime, she stayed with her relatives in Delhi. But because of their denial and negligence, she is now staying in Gur Aasra Trust. Her brother is also living with her in the Trust. She is studying in B.A. Ist year as well as doing Diploma in Computers. She is good in reciting Gurbani Kirtan and Dhadhi Varan. At present, she is studying in Panjab University, Chandigarh under the guardianship of Gur Aasra Trust (Regd.). 102)- Randeep Kaur D/o Shaheed S. Sarabjeet Singh Age - 19 years Class - B.A. Ist year Brief History:- Her father was a reputed employee of Railway Police. Punjab Police got him involved in false cases. So, he ran away from his house and became a militant. He was martyred in a Police encounter February 26,1992 . Her family suffered a lot after his death. They have not got any land or any other source of income. She is living in Gur Aasra Trust for the last three years. She is good in her studies especially in Fine Arts. She also recites Gurbani Kirtan and Dhadhi Varan. She is suffering from some brain problems and her treatment is going in PGI through the Trust. At present, she is studying in Govt. College, Mohali under the guardianship of Gur Aasra Trust (Regd.). Gurbaksh Singh S/o Shaheed Dr. Swaran Singh Age - 17 years Class - X Brief History:- His father was a doctor in Indian Army. He practiced privately after his retirement in his village itself. He was badly beaten and brutally killed by some Hindu militants by attacking him in his house itself on Dec.25, 1994 in Haryana State. Gurbaksh is the eye witness of the whole case. He was at home when his father was attacked and killed. A patient who was completly blind, and had come to his father for treatment, was also killed. Gurbaksh was also beaten but he somehow managed to flee away from there. Till today the signs of wounds are there on his body. He is living in Gur Aasra Trust for the last three years. The trust is itself facing some problems regarding him since he is the eye witness of the whole case. This case is still under trial in the Punjab and Haryana High Court in Chandigarh. He is staying in the residential branch of Amritsar and studying in class X. He is also taking the training of Taekwondo And Karate. 152)- Gurmeet Singh S/o Shaheed S. Paramjeet Singh Age - 17 years Class - X Brief History:- His father was the only son of his parents. Their whole property and assets were ruined and looted in the Anti-Sikh riots of 1984 in U.P. His father then came to Punjab and became a militant in order to take his revenge. He was martyred in a Police encounter with five other young militants on May 21, 1992 near Anandpur Sahib. His grandparents (mother and father of his father) could not tolerate this and died soon after his father's death. They did not have any other source so he is living with his sisters, brother and mother in Gur Aasra Trust for the last three years. He is good in karate and is studying in residential branch in Amritsar under the guardianship of Gur Aasra Trust (Regd.). Amritpal Singh S/o Shaheed S. Rashpal Singh Shandra Age - 8 years Class - II Brief History: He is the younger one of a very famous militant Rashpal Singh Shandra, who was the chief of Bhindranwala Tiger Force. He was martyred in a Police encounter near Ludhiana on June 11, 1992. Amritpal's grandfather Shaheed S. Ranjit Singh was also martyred in a false Police encounter. On the next day after the death of his father Rashpal Singh Shandra, his mother Mrs. Amarjit Kaur and grandmother (Nani) were picked up by Police. Till today, it is not known that how did the police actually killed them. After the martyrdom of his father, mother, grandfather and grandmother (Nani) he is living in Gur Aasra Trust for the last three years and studying in residential branch in Amritsar under the guardianship of Gur Aasra Trust (Regd.). Simranjeet Singh S/o Shaheed S. Avtar Singh Padhri Age - 6 years Class - I Brief History:- His father was a very famous leader of the militant organisation Babbar Khalsa. He was martyred in a Police encounter on April 14, 1994. His mother, Rajwinder Kaur, was of 15 years when she was married to this militant and was of 16 years when she became a widow. Simranjeet took birth after the death of his father. Simranjeet's Uncle S. Dhian Singh, aged 14 years, a student of Matric, was killed by Black Cats by torturing him in third degree. Gur Aasra Trust is facing a lot of problems to keep Simranjeet and his mother safe. Simranjeet is quite sharp and plays Gatka very well in such a small age. At present, he is studying in Class I in Hemkunt Public School under the guardianship of Gur Aasra Trust (Regd.). 155)- Fateh Singh S/o Shaheed Dr. Swaran Singh Age - 16 years Class - 10 + 1 Brief History:- His father was a doctor in Indian Army. He practiced privately after his retirement in his village itself. He was badly beaten and brutally killed by some Hindu militants by attacking him in his house itself on Dec.25, 1994 in his village Jamalpur Sheikhan in Haryana State. A patient who was completly blind, and had come to his father for treatment, was also killed. This case was taken up on the international level and was criticised by all Human Rights Organisations. The case is still under trial in the Punjab and Haryana High Court in Chandigarh and the seven accused persons are still under Judicial custody in jail. He and his brother have been tried to be killed by the Hindu militants on several ocassions. The trust is itself facing some problems to keep them safe. He is living in Gur Aasra Trust for the last three years with his mother. At present, he is studying in XIth class in Govt. College, Mohali under the guardianship of Gur Aasra Trust (Regd.). 156)- Sarabjeet Singh S/o Late S. Mahander Singh Age - 15 years Class - VIII Brief History:- He belongs to a nice reputed and a prosperous family. But their whole business and property were ruined during the Anti-Sikh Riots of 1984. His parents also became the victims of the riots. These were not actually riots but was pre-planned conspiracy to finish the Sikh Community. For sometime, he stayed with his relatives in Delhi. But because of their denial and neglifence, he is now staying in Gur Aasra Trust. His sister is also living with him in the Trust. He is studying in class VIII in the residential branch of Amritsar under the guardianship of Gur Aasra Trust (Regd.). 103)- Bhupinderjeet Kaur D/o Shaheed Jathedar Ranjit Singh Ballagan Age - 18 years Class - B.A. Ist year Brief History:- Her father was a Head Granthi in the famous and old Organisation of Sikh Panth called Budha Dal. When the head of this Organisation Santa Singh became a spy of the Delhi Government, the entire Sikh community made Ranjit Singh as the Head of the Organisation. Sant Jarnail Singh Khalsa Bhindranwale and Sri Akal Takht Sahib also recognised him as the Jathedar of the Budha Dal. On the ocassion of Shahidi Jor Mela in Fatehgarh Sahib in December-1985, he with his three followers were brutally murdered by the followers of Santa Singh. Her nanaji, Jathedar Mohan Singh was also killed by the followers of Santa Singh in 1989. Her mother Simranjeet Kaur was re-married to her uncle Sukhdev Singh (brother of Shaheed Ranjit Singh) with the advice of their relatives and friends. Sukhdev Singh became the Lt.General of Khalistan Liberation Army and became quite famous in a very short time-period with his work. He was martyred in a Police encounter on Feb-3, 1992. Her mother still remained widow. Bhupinderjeet's father, step-father and nanaji became the victims of this Genocide. But facing a lot of difficulties, she is quite intelligent in her studies. 104)- Sandeep Kaur D/o Shaheed S. Sarabjeet Singh Age - 18 years Class - B.A. Ist year Brief History:- Her father was a Lt. General of Khalistan Liberation Army. He became quite famous with his actions in a very short time. He was martyred in a Police encounter on February 26,1992. This family had to face a lot of difficulties during his lifetime and after his martyrdom. Punjab Police ruined their assets and property. She is staying in Gur Aasra Trust for last three years. She is good in sports, plays hockey well. She is also good in Gurbani Kirtan and Dhadi varan. She plays Gatka also well. At present, she is studying in Govt. College, Mohali under the guardianship of Gur Aasra Trust (Regd.). 109)- Lovpreet Kaur D/o Shaheed S. Avtar Singh Kahthunangal Age - 8 years Class - II Brief History:- Her mother, Mrs. Sukhwinder Kaur was married to S. Avtar Singh Kathunangal at a small age of 16 years. S. Avtar Singh was a very famous militant and was the Lt.General of Khalistan Liberation Army. About four months after their marriage, S. Avtar Singh was martyred in a police encounter on April 21, 1991. Lovpreet took birth seven months after the martyrdom of his father. Her mother is living in her parental village. Her grandmother (Naniji) is already a widow. This family has faced such a torture by Punjab Police that it cannot be explained. Moreover, there is no male member left in this family. Lovpreet is studying under the guardianship of Gur Aasra Trust (Regd.), but the Trust is worried about her mother who became a widow in such a small age. 110)- Sukhraj Kaur D/o Shaheed S. Satnam Singh Changiara Age - 8.1/2 years Class - I Brief History:- Her mother, Mrs. Sawinder Kaur was also married to Shaheed S. Satnam Singh Changiara in a very small age. S. Satnam Singh was the Lt.General of the very famous militant organisation called Bhindranwala Tiger Force. He was martyred in a police encounter with his friends in January 1991. Sukhraj Kaur took birth on July 11, 1991, about seven months after the matyrdom of her father. Her uncle, S. Mohan Singh (Brother of Shaheed S. Satnam Singh) is missing till date and his dead body was also not found. Her grandfather S. Dara Singh (Dadaji) was killed by Black Cats. Her grandfather (Nanaji) also became the victim of Genocide. At present, Sukhraj is studying in Class I in Hemkunt Public School under the guardianship of Gur Aasra Trust (Regd.). 153)- Rana Gurwinder Singh S/o Shaheed S. Sarabjeet Singh Uppal Age - 16 years Class - X Brief History:- His father was an active leader in the famous organisation Akal Federation since 1982. He was sent to jail by Punjab Police by involving him in false cases. Being irritated by all this, he joined the militant organisation Khalistan Commando Force and became its Lt.General. His actions became so famous that his head was rewarded for Rs.25 lakhs by Punjab Govenment. He was marytred in a police encounter on November 16, 1990. Rana Gurwinder Singh is studying in Class X under the guardianship of Gur Aasra Trust (Regd.). 154)- Palwinder Singh S/o Shaheed S. Surjan Singh Age - 15 years Class - VIII Brief History:- His father became a militant after the attack on Darbar Sahib in 1984. He worked for various militant organisations. After sometime, he became the famous leader of the organisation named Babbar Khalsa. He was martyred very bravely in an encounter with Punjab Police and Indian Army. He was saluted for his bravery by the Commander of the Army after his martyrdom. On the other side, Punjab Police kept an eye of hatred towards his family. Two uncles of Palwinder (brothers of Shaheed S. Surjan Singh) were martyred by Punjab Police in different false encounters. At present, there are four widow ladies in his family including his mother, Mrs. Kuldip Kaur. He is studying in Class VIII in the residential branch of Amritsar under the guardianship of Gur Aasra Trust (Regd.). Name: Jasdeep Singh Father: shaheed Lakhwinder Singh Age : 8 years Class : Brief History:- Jasdeep Singh was not even born when the black cats of punjab police martyred his father Shaheed Lakhwinder Singh of village Kotla Shahia Distt Gurdaspur December 1991 in front of his mother. He was born about three month after the death of his father His grand father and mother also died due to the shock of the untimely death of their son. He is survived only by his mother who is making both the end meet with great dificulty by doing embroidery and tailoring job Jasdeep singh is staying in Gur Aasra Trust and studtying in good school .Gur Aasra Trust is also sendingh his mother finacial help in the form of monthly pension. Name Paramjit singh Father shaheed balbir singh Age 10 years Class iv Brief History:- his father was s balbir singh went to village to bring the diesel on tractar .on the way he was martyred by crpf personnel not only this about five personnel (innocent )were killed along with him.His son parmjit singh was about two months old.After his death his mother went to her maternal village kairon and his sister sukhwinderkaur went to her in law's Name livtar singh Father's name shaheed Ram singh age 12 years class 6th Brief history a renowned press reporter of aaj di awaaj and ajeet newspaper and distt Secertery of punjab human rights orgnisation shaheed ram singh bling was abducted while going to jullundher by punjab police and subsequently martyred under a planned conspiracy in such a way that his whereabouts were not known till today.son of a poor farmer was after doing his M.A in E nglish and diploma in a renowned writer known for his struggle for fundamental rights and truth was silenced for ever.complete writer community could not do much even after the great struggle.gur aasra trust has taken the responssibility of education and complete lookafter of livtar singh and sending finacial help to the widow mother in the form of monthly pension. Name prabhjot singh Father subhwinder singh bhatti age 12 class vii brief history 12 ,May 1994 would be known as black day in the punjab history when shaheed subhwinder singh advocate who used to fight the cases for the millitants was abducted from the bus by black cats of punjab police.despite the strikes and interference of indian and foreign advocates his where abouts, regarding when and where this great personality was martyred, are not known till today.the able son of a great father is studying in good school in mohali.gur aasra trust has taken the complete responssibilty for his studies. Name Sikander singh father shaheed jaimal singh age 8 years class III brief history: his father shaheed jaimal singh was martyred near village talwandi tehsir patti distt amritsar in a fake police encounter her mother baljeet kaur remarried with the concent of gur aassra trust obviously the sikander singh has become an orphan.he studying under the guardianship of gur aasra trust since last few years in good school in s a s nagar. Name : Talwinder singh Father Makhan singh alias maha singh Age 12 years class iv Brief History:-his father was renowned activist of B.T.F .he was arrested and torchered by the punjab police in front of his family members at village kotli bawa ram distt hosiarpur.afterwards he was dragged by tying with the vehical and martyred.widow of shaheed makhan singh remarried herself and his son talwinder singh is studying under the guardianship of gur aasra trust. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ During the geonocide of Sikh Qaum so many sikh youths were slaughted by the government Mother Lakhmir kaur family is one of those rare family who bore the burnt of police atrocities.Beside her husband S Harjit singh she was having a son Balwinder singh and daughter.S Harjit singh decided to marry his daughter and subsequently fixed her marriage.Mata lakhmit kaur along with her son was going to her relatives in village Bhoma on the way near to village Talwandi-Rama. Police stoped the bus in which they were travelling.Police was in searchof S.Balwinder Singh allawalpur thana. Shri Hargobindpur.All sikh youths were searched by the police when Balwinder singh told his where about without proper inquiry they put the balwinder singh,after tieing his mouth and handsand feets, in police vehical where two more youths were already lying .No body was there to help the crying mother.Police took all of them and all three were gun down near the village Kathiale.When grieved parents along with other renowned persons asked for the dead body they were refused .When they asked the reasons.The police told that they were in search of Balwinder singh Allawalpur thana Hargobindpur who was a millitant.Point to remember here that Mata Lakhmir kaur's village was Allawalpur which fall under thana Dera Baba Nanak .Balwinder singh was the student of 10+2 class who fell the vicitim of police negligence and was a state level sportsman.S Harjit singh lost his sense after hearing the shocking news and died after 20-22 days.After this relatives refused to marry her daughter.After 2 years when mother arranged her marriage.But after about 8 months her son-in-law also died under mysterous circumstances.Now mother Lakhmir kaur has filed a petion in court about the murder of his lone son. This is the reason that today also police does not allow her live peacefully. Gur Aasra Trust is sending finacial asistance in the form of monthly pension and giving her a helping hand in sorting out her domestic problems. Bibi Dalbir kaur was married to S Kulwant singh of village Dulla Nangal Distt Gurdas Pur.She had suffered for endless sufferings her only fault was that she was the sister of Shaheed Satnam singh Chhina who was the activist of Bhindran wala Tiger Force. Her parents and other brothers remain in police custody and bore the burnt of police atocities the police not left even her husband and father-in-law and kept them in illigle police custody and torchered them till the time Satnam singh remained deserter .The husband of Bibi Dalbir kaur was torchered so much that he could not bear the police torchering and died 2-3 months before his brother-in-law Satnam singh Chhina. After some times of the death of Satnam singh police picked up his younger brother and his newly married wife and killed even their dead bodies were not given to the grieved parents. and S kulwant singh father of Satnam singh could not bear the shock of death of his son in law and son and his wife and and left this world forever.Bibi's story of sorrows does not end here after the death of her husband Even she was asked to leave her father-in-law's house.Due to some other difficulties her other relatives also could not give her shelter for rest of her life and she along with her two children Narinder singh and Jaswinder kaur approached Gur Aasra Trust .Now Bibi Dalbir kaur and her son and daughter are staying in Gur Aasra Trust. Both the children are studying in good school in Mohali. Bibi Amarjit kaur was the lone daughter of her parents who became widow in her young age. Her parents were haveing seven sons, But none of them survived due to one or another reasons.Bibi Amarjit kaur was married to S. Narinder singh of village vagewal,Distt Amritsar. She could stay for few months with her husband because Bhai Narinder singh fell the victim of the criminal wave. Punjab police picked him from Kathu Nangal. Where he was torchered for so many days. At last the renowned persons from villages approached the police officers and got him released after telling them that Bibi Amarjit kaur health is not good and in advance stage of her perganancy, but few days police again picked up S Narinder singh again on 09 April 1993 and martyred in police custody and even his dead body was not given .Bibi Amarjit kaur was made to suffer this unprecedent and unbearable shocks and gave birth the Amritpal singh before normal time (prematurely ) S Amritpal singh is now studying in good school in Mohali with help of Gur Aasra Trust and also sending finacial help in the form of monthly pension but Gur Aasra Trust is worried about the future of the Bibi Amarjit kaur who is in his young age. Bibi Rajwant kaur was married to Shaheed Barjinder singh Lattu of village Nawan Katra Distt Gurdaspur.Bhai Barjinder singh was man of religious nature.In 1984 when Indian Government attacked the Shri Harmander Sahib under planned consipiracy and on the other hand Sikh Youths were booked by framing false cases,sameway Bhai Barjinder singh was sent to prison.After staying for long time when he came back and wanted to lead a peaceful life but Police carried on harassing him.In 1991 he was traped in a false case again and sent to prison and stayed there for more than a year. Bhai Baljinder singh was killed in fake police encounter near village Shaahpur Jajan Chakki (dera baba nanak). Bibi Rajwant kaur is having two sons namely Ranjodh Singh and Jagtar Singh. Both are studying with the help of Gur Aasra Trust (regd), Mohali and bibi Rajwant kaur is givin monthly pension as finacial aid. Bibi Raj kaur's fathers Tahel singh was a cancer patient died before her marriage .Mata Avtar kaur decided to releive helself from the family responssibility and married her with S Kuldip singh of Varrpal village Distt Amritsar.At the time of marriage the Kuldip singh was student of 10th class .As Kuldip singh grown up and in the top of his life .Under the planned genocide of sikh qaum ,sikh youths were the main target of government of the time.S Kuldip singh fell vicitim of same consipiracy and police started harassing him . police used to harass the Kuldip singh's parents and Bibi Raj kaur their only fault was that they used to serve food to police harassed youths .During this period Bibi Raj kaur gave birth to Kulwinder kaur.After getting fed up from police humiliation Kuldip singh became millitant .After about one year, Along with four sikh youths S Kuldip singh was shot dead in police encounter and dead bodies of these 5 precious sikh youths were creamated by police .Death of young son in front of old aged parents is considered to be biggest tragedy in the world S Kuldip singh was merely 20 years old at the time of his death.Bibi Raj kaur gave birth to S Lakhwinder singh after her husband's death .It is very dificult for a widow to take the responssiblity without any source of income.Gur Aasra Trust has given her shelter and she is staying in Gur Aasra Trust since three years.Lakhwinder singh is 8 years and Kulwinder kaur 10 years old are studying in good school in Mohali with the help of Gur Aasra Trust.Gur Aasra Trust is worried about the future of Bibi Raj kaur. Bibi Sukhwinder kaur is the eldest among her eight sisters and is not having any brother .Her father was died when she was in her chilhood.When she grew up her mother decided to marry her with Avtar singh of village KathuNangal Distt Amritsar who was very handsom promised his mother-in-law that he will share all their sorrows and other family responssibilities like thier real son.After just four months of the marriage, Punjab police arrested S Avtar singh from village Kala Afganan on 21 april 1991 and under the supervision of SSP police of Fatehgarh Churian he was torchered and killed him in fake police encounter. After 7 months of the death of Shaheed Avtar singh Bibi Sukhwinder kaur gave birth to Lavpreet kaur on 22 nov 1991.After her husband's death She could not stay at her in law's house and also nobody had tried and she came back to her parental village Nawan Verronangal .Now Lavpreet kaur is studying in Mohali in a good school with the help of Gur Aasra Trust. Gur Aasra Trust is sending finacial help in the form of monthly pension .But Sukhwinder kaur is in very young age and it is very difficult for him to pass rest of her life. Gur Aasra Trust is worried about her future. Mata Surjit kaur is the mother of three martyres,S Surjan singh,Avtar singh and Piara singh who were killed during milltancy period .Her husband was killed in accident long back.She alone brought up her three sons with great difficulties but in 1984 under the planed consipiracy the government attacked the Golden Temple Shri Harmandir Sahib the elder son S Surjan singh was Nihang Singh who along with other people of villaage were going to Darbar Sahib to show their unhappiness but after brief encounter with army ,They were arrested and torchered after taking to the army camp and when left after few months Police started unnecesarily, to get rid off this mishappening S Surjan singh went to neighbour country as there was nobody to listen the grievences.When he came back after about two years Police again arrested and sent him to prison From there he was released after about two years. For seeing in no relent in police torchering he decided to fight for justice and became millitant.At last he was killed in Police encounter in1992.Not only this,whole of his family and relatives were torchered by the Punjab police by keeping them in illigle police custody.Which was gross voilation of human rights in itself and Bibi Kuldip kaur wife of Surjan singh was pregnent in 1984 and remained in illigle police custody and made to suffer the burnt of Police atrocities which effected the unborn child also Afterward she gave birth to Palwinder singh who is studtying 8th class with the help of Gur Aasra Trust in Mohali who is also under going psychological treatment and same is the condition of the younger one (Jatinder singh).S Avtar singh and his family Bibi Kulwant kaur and children were also torchered and S Avtar singh died under mystereous circumstaces and the youngest son Piara singh was killed in fake police encounter before S Surjan singh whose wife along with two children is staying in Gur Aasra Trust who is worried about her old Mother in law and children .The grandsons and grand daughters of mata surjit kaur are studying in good school in Mohali. Bibi Daljit kaur is the wife of S Ajit singh Kadian was the Distt President of Sikh Student Federation.His policies,services and other activities were not liked by the government.He migrated to neighbour country to get escape from the govt consipiracy after the Operation Blue Star. When he came back after about two years was sent to prison after framing false cases.After releasing from prison he countinued his activities.At last,He was arrested from his in-law house by Ftehgarh Churrian Police and after two days of police torchering was killed in Police encounter near Fatehgarh Churrian.At present Daljit kaur is the mother of two children (son Kirpar singh 10 years,Chanrnpreet singh 8 years).Both are studying with the help of Gur Aasra Trust.Gur Aasra Trust is sending finacial help in the form of family pension who is staying at Maternal village.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, .. Fauge you believe that there is no progress, that nothing is done that the people involved are ill qualified to further the cause, that empty rhetoric is the order of the day? Well much in the same way that N30 felt that there was no relief or charity work for the victims of 84 (I have included something for you N30 veer at the end of this post) because he was not aware of any, you think that nothing constructive is being achieved, that the people involved are politically naive. Well much in the same way as N30, you are wrong. Just because you are not aware of something does not mean it doesn't exist. read the article below I have included it on a previous post, pay particular attention to the final comment by the writer. .. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ .. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In summary much is being done, there will always be people like yourself who are fatigued and can no longer be bothered, the reaction of such people is invariably to voice criticism from the sidelines rather than involving themselves. It is only too easy to blame others rather than looking at oneself, if the movement isn't as you see it 'working' then either do something about it or acknowledge that in your already complicated and demanding life this subject is not a high priority. What you should not do is assume because you are unable to fit this into your schedule others cannot or others should not because you see it as futile posturing on their part. I understand your apathy but speaking frankly the fickle nature of your comment " i too was a khalistani.." leads me to say you have made the correct decision to concentrate on issues that, as you see them are closer to home. I do not know how old you are or anything else about your background but believing in something like the right to self determination is a belief in a fundamental principle no different from believing in the equality of all men as example. Not something you believe in today but change your mind about tomorrow. Remember fauge the struggle continues, it can take decades, it can take different form's whether its the AK or the ballot box depends more on the global picture at the time. I think most Sikhs in the UK at least support the concept whether it be as an ideology or a reaction to the indian state injustice against the Sikhs over the past twenty years and more but there is at this time a great deal of general apathy.To return to the groundswell of support of the mid and late eighties will require the indians to commit another huge and public atrocity against the Sikh nation unfortunately this is not a question of if but when. There is no one in their right mind who would want to see this happen but as I have said it is as inevitable as the reaction. I listen to Sikhs say that they do not support 'khalistan' in some ways the term has been so maligned by the power's that by over such a long period I am not surprised, but if they do not support the creation of a independent Sikh state than they are simply waiting to be dealt another blow by a state that cares nothing for it's minorities least of all those that it considers 'the enemy within' There is of course, to india, a acceptable Sikh identity as espoused by the popular media of the day which wastes no time in remodelling the Sikh ethos to fit indias need and there is no doubt there are those who feel that we can forget the past and carry on but for all their good intentions they are missing the point. Our future is not dependent on our behaviour towards the majority rather it is the reverse our future is dependent on their behaviour towards us. You know the real irony of the 84 Sikh massacres in Delhi? The victims were the indian text book Sikhs largely Hindi speaking, non-secessionist urbanites more partial to the Mahabharat than any talk of Sikh sovereignty, they considered themselves indians, did that help/save them? You know the answer to that question you see regardless of their attempts at integration they were considered different, aliens if you will, to be taught a lesson and of course clearly visible as Sikhs. Listening to a program titled 'after bluestar' on the BBC world service yesterday Mark Tully whilst visiting Harmandir Sahib asked why the white marble walkway in a particular area was stained red, the sewadar that was accompanying Tully said this is where the bodies of Sikh pilgrims murdered by the indian army were piled one upon each other before the municipal (rubbish) trucks were sent in by the army to collect the bodies, Tully asked 'there still red from the blood?' (sewadar) 'Yes' (Tully) 'after twenty years its still red, haven't you tried to wash it off?' (sewadar) 'we have tried everything but it will not wash away'.... Hearing that it made my think that even that inanimate marble has greater depths of love than many of us, after twenty years it has not denied, it has not forgot it still bears testimony to the blood of innocents, do you? Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, I did not wish to respond to some of the most recent posts since as predicted the thread has moved some distance from its original intention i.e.. the impact of a Sikh being installed as indian PM on the Sikh right to self determination. However some of the comments made do need to be countered if for no other reason than to correct some misconceptions and factual inaccuracies. Above is nonsensical, why would anyone claim to advocate something if they did not desire it? Surely if you lacked the desire of an objective then you wouldn't champion it, would you? The only way 'you will do anything about it' is if your desire outstrips your apathy, perhaps for you that may never happen. As for your comment regarding power or as you see it the lack of it, it is a good thing that not everyone is as defeatist as yourself, indeed had this attitude been prevalent in the formative years of Sikhi, we would not be having this, or any other discussion on a Sikh website since none would have existed. It is precisley because we live outside of india that we are uniquely placed to be the unrestricted, uncensored voice for the Sikh nation, we are fortunate enough to live in a society where information is freely available, where opinion maybe openly expressed. It is not a matter of separating 'our problems' from 'theirs' it is exactly this lack of identifying 'their' problems as 'ours' that leads us to our current situation. History witnesses that those people(s) who are unable to secure their sovereignty lack both impact and longevity on the world stage. Our long term future existence as a Sikh nation regardless of where we choose to live is absolutely dependent on the creation of a Sikh sovereign state. It is vitally important that the world acknowledges the plight of the Sikhs and the genocide that they have been subjected to by the supposed democracy of india, by raising awareness we will be fulfilling our commitment to all those who have suffered and those who gave their lives for us. With the world in the dark 'Panjab's' will continue, look at Gujrat, only by raising awareness will india be exposed and think twice before dealing with its minorities with impunity. Frankly it is the good fortune of the Jewish people that this sort of thinking wasn't prominent following the holocaust. . Based on what you have written, it seems you managed to change your stance on this issue in one turn of a chapter of one book. Firstly the book you mention is a well researched, well written and impartial study of people who were involved in the liberation movement of Panjab and subsequently escaped to find asylum in the west. Those that have a pro-india stance would be less appreciative of this book as it points to many truths that contradict standard indian propaganda. Sikh-fauge, I do not know how many other books, articles, reports you have read on the subject, I can assure you there are many, such as Who are the Guilty (1984), Voices, Sikhs of the Punjab(1995),the nations tortured body(2001),india and khalistan (1991),india commits suicide(1992), Operation blue star(1993),Punjab to Khalistan(1987) Aftermath of bluestar(1992),eye witness account of bluestar(1999), chakravyuh web of indian secularism(2000) Sikh in history(2000),The gallant defender(1999), politics of genocide (1999) from a Scarred City (1985), Punjab Crisis and Human Rights (1985), The Turning Point (1985), Oppression in Punjab (1986), I Swear An Indian Torture Chamber (both published 1990), India Kills the Sikhs (1991) as well as numerous Amnesty International, asia watch, physicians for human rights,peoples union for civil liberties and HRW Report's to name but a few. My point is that a subject of such fundamental importance and complexity should not be determined on the reading of any one book. Further you either embellish the contents of the book to suit your prejudice or at least you have treated the subject trivially enough to not even read this book properly, what you describe above is in fact not true. The book recounts that the bomb was strapped to a bicycle and not a child as you contend further the 'bike bomb' was left in a bazaar (market) there is no mention of any 'hindu village'. The way that you have manipulated the text of the book is disappointing, you also omit the summarisation of the author at the end of the chapter when she examines the motivations behind such a bombing..."Dramatic acts of violence as Franz Fanon noted, have the capacity to jolt the silent masses into an awareness of their power. This experience of sudden empowerment seems to overcome hesitations relating to concerns for victims, on the part of both perpetrators of the violent acts and the audiences who applaud them. Were the sense of disempowered not so strong, acts of violent empowerment would not resonate as they do in the khalistani Sikh community virtually all of whose members assert the primacy of moral considerations in the separatist struggle". Further the author speaking publicly a year after the release of her book had this to say.... . This is a comment that tries to suggest that their is somehow some parity between the Sikh experience and that of the GOI or indian people, there is no parity whatsoever. India was the aggressor and instigator, the vast majority of civilian victims were Sikh, those imprisoned,raped and tortured by the police and army were Sikh, those disappeared, killed in 'encounters', imprisoned for years without trial were and are Sikhs, bluestar desecrated the most holy shrine of the Sikhs, all victims of the Nov pogroms were Sikh, all those denied and still denied justice are Sikh. Yet you contend there are two side's to the story!! This comment only serves to strengthen my belief that your opinions are based on a rudimentary knowledge of the topic, there is therefore little to be gained by even asking why you draw such conclusions, but with further regard to this being 'a story with two side's.' There are opinion's some are based on facts whilst others are based on misinformation, the propaganda that was used by the indian government to justify bluestar and the subsequent 'information' issued through government and army officials into the aftermath of the attack, such as numbers of militants, numbers of dead, breakdown of men women and children, damage to akal takht, numbers of arms, discovery of illicit drugs, troop casualties, arson, removal of artefacts etc.etc.etc. have all subsequently been shown to be lies, this is not a matter of opinion or open to debate they were absolute, unashamed, downright, lies. How do we know this? Because every single piece of information issued relating to the examples above was later revised or in a number of cases completely denied. As a small example the Indian's originally issued a statement saying that there were 49 militants taking shelter in Harmandir Sahib, Lt.Gen Brar later offered these statistics "army casualties were 83 killed and 248 wounded; terrorist and other casualties were 492 killed and 86 wounded" Yesterday 24th May speaking on the BBC programme 'after bluestar' Lt.Gen. Brar puts the number of militants at 2,000! To further add to the confusion It is noted that PM Rajiv Gandhi addressing the national union of students at Nagpur in September 1984 referred to the 700 shaheed soldiers killed executing bluestar. (I.Jaijee P.O.G.) One statistic that is unequivocal however is that more gallantry awards were given for operation bluestar than the combined awards for indias four wars of 1948;1962,1965 and 1971. This endemic lying resonates throughout the entire period of insurgency in the Panjab and continues to the present day. The GOI has so twisted and distorted the facts that there are those like you who will contend that their are 'two sides to the story' without really looking at the fact's. The idea that a individual act of barbarity, although unjustifiable is comparable to the sustained, pre-meditated assault on an entire people, employing the whole might of a national army, police and intelligence network, the use of all media by government to demonise the Sikhs both nationally and internationally, the corruption of the judiciary, the suspension of the rule of law, the passing of draconian legislation, the legitimisation of extra judicial execution, the imposition of martial law, the removal of the democratic process, the immunity from prosecution of the guilty. In fact the entire machinery of the indian nation state was pitted against one of its own minority communities, India had effectively declared a war on the Sikh's. These actions as the action of choosing to perpetrate 'bluestar' on a recognised day in the Sikh calendar belies the governments intentions. The intention of GOI was to cause maximum Sikh civilian casualties. If not the case then why June 6th? If not why half a million soldiers? If not why give total impunity to the police and army? If not why cut off all communications, effectively turning Panjab into a open prison? If not why expel all media? If not, why ban entry of UN or Human rights delegations? The Sikh armed response in any impartial and objective summary was never one intended to impose civilian casualties, if it had been it would have been far easier to move the battle out of the Panjab and bomb any number of indian cities. If the fight had not been focused firstly on defence and later moral struggle and resistance, cell's could have disappeared at will in the vast metropolis of delhi, bangalore, calcutta, bombay. If their intention had been to inflict mass civilian casualties, it would have been far easier than facing an army on the plains of the Panjab, in many ways taking the fight out of the Panjab would not have only been more effective in hurting the GOI it would also have meant that a far higher proportion of those killed would have been hindus rather than as it was, Sikhs. The resistance movement imposed upon itself high moral standards, in stark contrast to its opponent. The GOI would hold on to Panjab regardless of the cost both in civilian and moral term's. If the freedom movement had adopted the same principle i.e.. victory at any cost then there can be no doubt a Sikh state would be a reality today, however could a state built in such a way ever hold legitimacy? Would the end's justify the means? As Sikhs we must say no they would not. Equally does the GOI who adopted such amoral methods in order to 'win' hold any legitimacy? No, it cannot. The situation in Panjab was created for nothing other than political gain it was not a issue of hindu/Sikh communalism as the GOI would have us believe. It is telling that the massacre of Sikhs in Delhi and all over india was not responded to by a massacre of hindus by the Sikhs in Panjab. Gross injustice on this scale is never forgotten, it may be quelled by brutality for a generation or even more but the history of similar movements has always shown that the state will eventually reap what it has sown. The truth of Guru Nanak Dev Ji 'Apei beej ape hei khae' is not lost on the indian state which is why every effort is now being made to tear the 'seedlings from their roots.' Two goals, revitalising Sikhi and achieving a Sikh homeland are not mutually exclusive on the contrary, if you recall the mid 80's just after 'bluestar' Sikhi was in ascendancy all over the world. Youth that had previously not given a damn were instilled with passion and wanted to declare themselves to the world as Sikhs. It has historically always been a ' just cause' that has re-awakened the spirit of dormant Sikhs. The creation of a Sikh nation state and the resurgence of Sikhi go hand in hand. Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, Thank you, but it is not naivety that leads me to my comment regarding the Air india case, instead the knowledge that had this case been as 'clear cut' as you seem to suggest then it would not be one of the longest running cases in Canadian legal history! Regardless of declarations of guilt by any one individual there was undoubtedly Indian government connivance in this atrocity. Have you read the book 'soft target'? It may not be for some conclusive in its findings but it certainly raises enough question's about the covert involvement of agencies of the GOI, whatever the involvement of the individuals on trial you can be sure many more will go unpunished. Further this post was about the impact of a Sikh PM on the movement for Sikh self determination, rather than the air india trial, my feeling is that you were presumptive in your suggestion of the guilty which is very much a question of speculation at this time and may continue to be so. Without meaning to offend N30 this is something of a ridiculous question to put to any one person. I would hope that Sikhs regardless of their political ideology would, if neccesary, in the tradition of their faith place their lives at the feet of the almighty in order to gain justice for the victims of tyranny, Sikh or otherwise, this is not a matter of whether they are (to use your terms) 'khalistani' or not, frankly a divisive term that is intended to fragment and distort rather than offer any real understanding of people who are Sikhs who do believe that their future as a people/nation is, best served by the establishment of a autonomous Sikh state. What do you mean by justice? Legal accountability for crimes? You seem to assume that the only way that progress may be made is at the barrel of a gun, please re-read my post with regards to diplomacy and political lobbying. Sikhs in western countries are using effective democratic means to raise awareness of the victims of 84, this is the most effective means of shaming india at this time, the fact that it does not involve the literal giving of ones life does not draw from that. The fact that their are so many Sikhs who would certainly not consider themselves 'khalistani' who wish to forget our recent history does much to hinder the victims cause. The March in Hyde park on June 6th will be attended by people who have taken out their time and in most cases done so for the past twenty years, to raise awareness of the 84 victims ask anyone of these people if they believe in the struggle for sovereignty, unanimously yes. You may ask why should the memory of the 84 victims be the sole preserve of those who believe in Sikh secession from india? The question is actually posed in reverse, it should be, why do those who remember the victims of 84 believe in Sikh secession? The answer is in the question. The widows of 84 and their families are not just the concern of those Sikhs you label 'khalistanis' but they should be on the conscience of the entire Sikh nation, it is certainly not helped by those Sikhs who wish to forget the entire episode in order to preserve indian hegemony. There are groups who raise money to help run orphanages for the children of 84( i will forward you details) being in such a role would of course preclude their involvement in issues of a political nature the same would apply to charities in general. This does not detract from the points I raised with regard to the appointment of Mr Singh, the subject of the thread and my opinion that he by virtue of past record, will not deliver justice to the Sikh's. Because some people have decided to line their pockets through the misery of others cannot be used as reason to ignore the plight of these people nor is it reason to taint the good work of genuine people. Any community on issue's such as these could cite instances of fraud it is not unique to any group or cause. Not sure what you mean by this, what 'movement' are you referring to? For there is no single movement at this time that could be categorised as the movement for khalistan and you cannot surely categorise various people by a common denominator. As example I wholeheartedly believe in the Sikh right to self determination, so does a colleague of mine who dealt with a lot of asylum applications from Sikhs in the mid-late eighties, he gained his knowledge of the subject both first hand and through personal research his name is Ross and he's scottish, does that make me and Ross 'khalistanis'? One thing that is evident is that you have a very negative view of what you describe as 'khalistani, this may be the case for a multitude of reasons,personal experience etc. Although I am sure you have cited these on previous post's more focused on the issue of Sikh independence rather than the incoming PM. Sorry to be repetitive, but the thread was about the impact of a Sikh PM on the struggle for self determination, my post dealt in volume with this point and contended there is no impact on this issue, that is still my contention, where as your first post saw the appointment of Mr Singh as a positive move that damaged the cause of Sikh secession, since you have not posed any questions on these particular points I can conclude that you accept the points made. N30 you have posed your questions and I have provided answers but please be aware that if the current course of posting continues it is inevitable that the thread will end up far from its original intention. Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, There seems to be huge political naivety on the part of some posters, N30 as example, in response to your statement above, you may not see any discrimination, may I ask what draws you to this conclusion? Have you for example read amnesty's most recent report on the Panjab situation, delivered only last year? It outlines continuing abuses by the indian state in Panjab. It is a fact that thousands still languish in prisons without trial or hope, widows still pine for justice, orphans are still asking why? Yet you see no discrimination? One man a congress trade union leader (Lalit Makhan) who led massacres against Sikhs at the behest of HKL bhagat is assassinated by a Sikh for his part in the bloodshed, the indian authorities manage to track the assailant half way around the world to the USA have him imprisoned and then extradited back to india to face more jail time, such lengths are taken to ensure that justice is delivered to the family of one man, international boundaries are crossed, no expense is spared.Yet you see no discrimination? For the families of Sikh victims any amount of effort in delivering justice is seen as futile, the men responsible have not left the country they are within walking distance of the police station, will justice ever be delivered to these Sikh families? No it will not. If you believe that PM Singh may facilitate justice, please read on. It is in fact paradoxical that despite the BJP pursuing the issue for its own cynical reasons, there was more hope of the perpetrators of Nov 84 coming to justice through the Nanavati commission under the auspices of Mr Vajpayee then there is under Mr Singh's Congress Remember also the electorate did not vote for a Sikh had he stood for election on his own merit he would have lost, his previous electoral record is far from 'shining'. The indians voted for a gandhi, streets were awash with people waving posters of Indira and Rajiv, both responsible respectively for the worst desecration in Sikh history and the wholesale slaughter of Sikhs in india wide pogroms. So this is the bloodline, the dynasty that was voted for, not Mr Singh. Ironically it was indeed the worst enemies of Sikhs in contemporary history that were being honoured by the election of another gandhi, certainly not Mr Singh. The shouts rising from the crowd following Sonias' refusal and the protest cry across many parts of india was in fact ' sonia nahiye that kohi nahiye' later revised to 'sonia nahiye tha rahul sahiye'. Certainly no mention of Mr Singh. The fact that the PM of india is now a Sikh is of little significance, it was a Sikh president(Z.Singh) in residence when Bluestar was perpetrated, it was a Sikh president that for a short while held ultimate power in india whilst the mobs readied their kerosene and bicycle tyres, it was a Sikh president that inaugurated a hateful son to his mothers throne and looked on whilst members of his own community burnt. Forget not the contributions of the Sikh police chief KPS Gill to the tragedy of a lost generation of Sikh youth, recall also the Sikh chief Minster who was only too accommodating of the central governments Sikh genocide, the late Beant Singh. PM Singh joined N. Rao's congress administration as finance minister in the 90's under this governments reign the police closed six cases against Sajjan Kumar alone as well as dropping many other cases against various congress workers, individuals. Do I need to re-iterate that PM Singh has come to power through the same party that for this general election gave 'tickets' to Sajjan Kumar, Jagdish Tytler and RK Anand to stand again as MP's? Effectively rewarding three of the most prominent men involved in the Sikh pogroms of 1984. This despite the fact that Justice GT Nanavanti commission, probing the 1984 carnage, issued section 8B notices to Kumar and Tytler, only six months before the election's! Those notices to Tytler and Kumar were issued after recording evidence which suggests their complicity in the violence and is therefore prejudicial to their reputation. Despite this they were cleared to stand as candidate's for congress in outer delhi and sadar constituencies respectively. So this is the party of the first Sikh PM of India, a party made up of MP's who lead assaults on innocent Sikh civilians murdering men women and children, MP's who led mobs with voting list in hand so that Sikh homes may be effectively targeted, MP's who paid for kerosene so that Sikh men and children may be burned alive, MP's who supervised the gang rape and molestation of Sikh women and girls, MP's who led mobs into gurudwara inciting them to burn the building's and worse (the sacrilege of Sri Guru Granth Sahib by burning, urination upon etc. is well noted in witness affidavits). Indeed Mr Singh's party to whom he pledges allegiance is not only the party of Indira that conceived Bluestar and the Sikh massacres of November but the same party that made sure that under Rajiv not a single congress party leader would be booked by the police, indeed not a single booking was made by the police under his reign, incidentally PM Singhs address to the press following the announcement of his imminent appointment saw him declaring that he would carry on the "sterling work of Sri Rajiv Gandhi Jee" given that Rajiv's first work was three of the worst day's in contemporary Sikh history. Mr Singhs words and actions, or lack of them, leave you in doubt as to where his loyalties lie. Remember the men who led the pogroms were not only the MP's of congress but personal friends of the Gandhi's, Rajiv himself was complicit in the massacre, he did not only allow three days of carnage without any intervention but later protected the perpetrators, this is the man that PM Singh eulogises? Bovine trouble?..... The formation of lobbying and pressure groups in other countries by people(s) who wish to raise awareness and win international support for their 'cause' is a long established means of constructive protest, your statement above shows a lack of knowledge on your part as to the current nature of Sikh political lobbying in, as example the UK. India cannot, given it's disgraceful history regard itself as a democracy.That is not to say that democracies do not exist, it is by lobbying these democracies and exposing india as the corrupt and vile state it is that international support can be won for the sikh cause. It is only through international diplomacy that the goal may be realised . This is not as you suggest the motivation of fear but instead the motivation of success, Sikhs are already making progress across the globe, by the grace of God the Sikh Diaspora holds greater and ever increasing levels of influence and wealth and this is not lost on politicians regardless of political persuasion, as well as those ordinary citizens who are disgusted by the reality of the indian state. After 84 the Sikhs fought back because they had no choice the GOI had carefully planned the attacks making sure that no foreign media may present a version of events other than their own they were also at pains to pit Sikh against Sikh so that any unity that may have existed eroded resulting in brothers turning on each other. That was a corner that we as a nation were backed into and we came out the only way we knew and rightly, taking the fight to the foe BUT there is no doubt the agenda was entirely set by the GOI we were simply reacting in the manner in which they excepted us to. That is exactly why we should not revert to type instead set the agenda ourselves, we shall not be pushed into a situation that is out of our control instead we shall set the boundaries and work within them using the international community as referee and witness. It is our duty to expose the true nature of the indian regime. As for armed struggle, as I have already stated there can be no intention of falling into another baited trap, the sort of trap that turned Sikh against Sikh and wiped out a entire generation of young men. History bear's testament to the genocide carried out by the GOI throughout Panjab through the 80's/90's, the armed struggle that arose from the ashes of amritsar was a just response since "all means of redress had failed". Your final comments are assumptive and therefore misjudged, who was responsible for the 'blowing up' of the Air India flight you refer to as well as the counter- insurgent attacks on innocent civilians in the period 84-92 in Panjab is very far from resolved, certain points however can be given as fact. Did the Indian intelligence service go to Canada with the express purpose of infiltrating the Sikh community? Yes. Was Canadian and world opinion turned against the Sikhs and thus their cause by the bombing of the air india flight? Yes. Did the Panjab police under the auspices of the central government carry out attacks on civilians whilst adopting the guise of militants? Yes. Was the Panjab police advantaged by this tactic by turning Panjab peasantry against the militants? Yes. As a further example both to confirm that the GOI is not averse to these sort of tactics as well as confirming that they are not consigned to history but still in rude health, we need only look at the Chittsingpora massacre. Violence is never preferable to diplomacy, no Sikh guru ever said it was. I am not talking of any 'ghandian' notion of non violence, to be unable to react violently is not non-violence it is merely acceptance of your situation. Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, For those of you living in the UK, please make enquiries as to whether your gurudwara has arranged coach travel. If not, it is of vital importance that you make representations to them, possibly with the support of older members of the sangat to ask them why they have not? We are often left frustrated, knowing what is 'right' and what clearly is not but impotent to do anything constructive to change our situation we decide to 'bury our heads in the sand', distract ourselves or convince ourselves it is not my problem, 'what can I do anyway'? This is your opportunity to do something, it may not seem earth shattering but even the longest journey begins with a single footstep. If through your persistence and determination you manage to bring even one more person to this gathering than would have ordinarily attended, then you have done something worthwhile. We are fortunate to live in a country that protects our right to protest, there are many other's who live in supposed democracies, like india, who cannot. Twenty years in terms of human history is a drop in the ocean, the Sikh situation within the nation state of india is very much a process still in flux, there are those that want us to conveniently consign events to the past, to forget, to 'move on'. How can we when justice is still denied? Whilst the crime is still in progress? While the victim count is ever rising? To forget, ignore, turn away, is to ensure that history will certainly repeat itself, understand the massacres of Gujrat 2002 were carried out in the safe knowledge that the government of the day in Nov 84 had allowed all concerned a free licence to kill, rape, mutilate and loot. Why should they then fear justice now when nothing has changed? Make the effort on June 6th, you and I owe a great number of people an enormous debt, this is the least we can do. Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh

mvd

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, A rather typically indian response, concerned about their reputation, not concerned about any attempt to get at the truth. Mr Dixit is entirely right when he states 'india would never agree to such a thing' he is of course entirely wrong in his comprehension of the word genocide. I have included a number of dictionary definition's below, I would say the events of November 1984 fit quite snugly . His assertion that it was provoked is really below comment, the fact that this man was a former foreign secretary speaks volumes about the quality of indian politicians. We certainly did not see a mass backlash against Brahmins when Nathuram Godse shot the Mahatma a man more revered than the psychotic indira ever was, however would the slaughter of brahmins, had it taken place be justified by Nathu's provocation? On the contrary Nathu is regarded as a hero by many indians, a true soldier of hindutva even the RSS, the organisation from whom he hailed is more popular than it has ever been . Hardly a novel reaction in indian political circles, after all we are faultless, it must be people who are anti-indian 'out to get us' and besmirch our good name, only surprise being that he is not blaming pakistan...yet. Will india ever allow a organisation such as the UN to carry out a independent enquiry? In a word, no. Will Sikhs or other minorities ever realise justice in the nation state of india? Frankly no, never. Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh GENOCIDE: The intentional annihilation of a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group. august1.com/pubs/dict/g.htm The systematic killing of people because of their race or ethnicity. hrusa.org/hrh-and-n/Part-5/6_glossary.htm the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national or racial group. www.earlham.edu/~pols/globalprobs/bosnia/glossary.html the deliberate and systematic extermination of an ethnic, religious, or cultural group. web.isp.cz/jcrane/Glossary.html The deliberate, systematic killing of an people or nation. Mass murder of a racial, national, or religious group. www.banthebomb.org/educ/glossary.html – the extermination of a cultural or racial group. www.whitehall.k12.mi.us/curriculum/socialstudies/glossaryofterms.htm systematic killing of a racial or cultural group www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn P.S. Workload being what it is at the moment, I have only just read the thread 'Akal Takht as fortress' and was disappointed to see the thread closed, must admit to being somewhat bemused by the contrary nature of some posters views when compared to their posts from the 'Shaheedi immortality...' thread. I believe the poster of this thread missed the point, that being, fortified or not the Harmandir Sahib complex was going to be attacked by the indian army, that is an absolute. Sant Bhindrawale was simply a pretext, his arrest could have been effected at many times prior to June, in fact there were no outstanding FIR's against him at the time of the attack, besides the simultaneous assault on at least 37(as many as 74) other Sikh Gurudwara at the same time somewhat negates the argument that this was about the apprehension or containment of one man, the other 37 gurudwara as well as those burned in the run up to June 84 or for that matter those attacked in Nov 84 were not fortified, did this prevent their sacrilege? Clearly not. The fact that some Sikhs decided to defend their holiest shrine is a act which should be admired, be under no illusions defended or not the army was going to storm the complex and kill Sikhs, the date chosen for the attack was not coincidence it was intentionally chosen to inflict maximum damage. Below is an interesting quote which exposes the widely held belief that bluestar was a response to Sant Bhindranwale, as contemptuous. On May the 5th 1984 Rajiv Gandhi visited Panjab; speaking in Chandigarh he described Sant Bhindranwale as "a saintly man without political ambitions." p.o.g./ I.S. Jaijee This less than a month before the attack? There will always be those whom seek to justify bluestar as being perpetrated in response to the actions of Sant Bhindranwale, this is a mistake not only for the reasons given above. It is impossible to look at the fortification of the Harmandir Sahib or the Sikh situation as a whole in isolation. It must be understood in context of the prevailing political climate of the time, it was not paranoia which led the Sant to concentrate on the grave injustices suffered by Sikhs at the hands of indian authorities, indeed events since 1984 have left us in doubt of the veracity of his claim's, but even in the years and months preceding June 84 we can see a determined increase in the governments anti-Sikh agenda, as example. February 20, 1984. The Congress chief minister of Haryana provoked an anti-Sikh riot through his inflammatory speech "warning the akali leaders that hindu patience is running out and retaliation was near". Satish Jacob (BBC) saw police looking on as hindu mobs burnt down the gurudwara in Panipat. He also witnessed Sikhs pulled from buses and forcibly shaved, Sikh shops looted, eight Sikhs were clubbed to death that day. Bear in mind that the Congress chief minister that incited these actions was not only a minister of the ruling government of india but a close personal friend of I gandhi. So this was the situation that Sikhs found themselves trapped within, the ruling government of 'their' country had decided that seeing the desertion of the muslim vote from congress the Sikhs alienation followed by retribution against them was a certain vote winner amongst hindu chauvinists. Bluestar was conceived and gestated on political ambition it was nurtured on vanity and executed in reckless hate, it was the last gasp of a woman who was no stranger to inciting communal and religious tensions to fuel her megalomania therefore fortification was no provocation as none were needed, the defiant protection of a Sikh shrine could do no worse than to allow history to record that the proud spirit of Sikh resistance to tyranny is still existent. Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, Below is a review of the latest indira biography,its available on Amazon. The BBC poll shows how many indians still hold her in high esteem despite her diabolical acts.The worlds most evil dictator would have been a more appropriate category, she may not have won but she would have made the short list, the very short list. Even if we leave the Sikh and Kashmir situation's out of the equation(she is ultimately responsible for both), her 'emergency' leading as it did to forced sterilisation (23million people) false imprisonment, corruption of the judiciary amongst other heinous acts shows the woman had little regard for democracy or the rule of law. The fact that she is still revered in this way by the majority of indians in spite of her engineered Sikh genocide speaks volumes about how that country still views the Sikhs and is a very clear message that we as a community ignore at our peril. Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, I take it the problem you have with this statement is the form of ingestion suggested? i.e. they do not 'smoke' the hemp,instead take it orally,by this standard is the 'chewing' of tobacco acceptable? Who should get their fact's right? Since I never mentioned Santa Singh I can only assume you are referring to the writer's of this quote from the literature that accompanies the album. Is that what you were referring to? Far be it from to defend the statements of another it would be presumptive of me, however some of the accusations are mere statements of fact i.e. the known consumption of meat and opium by many who regard themselves as Nihangs, the offence as you would see it would be the use of the word 'abusers' rather than the stating of fact. Of course like anything else it is a matter of perspective, the abuser is in the eye of the writer, a 'tee-totaller' would regard a 'drinker' as a abuser of his body, as a non-smoker would regard a smoker as a self-abuser. Therefore it is the prerogative of the writer to write from his perspective, as you do. The 'nindia' of Santa Singh is a bit more complicated, there is no direct accusation save for the writer's opinion that the people that are represented by Santa Singh are to his mind not Nihangs, by his definition, as to what his definition may be is again a matter for the writer. I will say this much in regard to Santa Singh, his collaboration with the Indian Government following bluestar in direct contravention of Sikh interests is no secret and led to his excommunication from the panth, a punishment which he accepted after some seventeen years in 'exile'. Looked at in a historical comparative his actions would have been equal to a Sikh, regardless of grandeur of title and position(if anything all the worse for it) accepting money and assistance from Ahmed Shah Abdali for reconstruction after his destruction of Harminder Sahib whilst allowing his tobacco smoking, shoe wearing and in the case of the Indian army alcohol drinking soldiers to mill around the complex whilst enforcing a curfew with orders to shoot on sight, in the surrounding city. Hypothetically speaking, if there had been an individual who had carried out such actions from that period, how do you think he would be remembered by the Sikh community? What words do you think may be used to describe him or his action's? Excerpt taken from Prof.Sangat Singh's 'The Sikhs In History, a millennium study' " Following the demolition of the Indira sponsored re-construction of the Akal Takht it was pulled down to allow it to be re-built by the Sikhs, this time with legitimacy... " I will refrain from personal comment on the actions of this man and leave it to the reader to draw his/her own conclusions. I will say that your perceived 'nindia' of him, by the album producers, if there has been any, is probably related to the episode above. Is this the same Baba Nihal Singh, whom along with late Baba Mangal Singh Satlani and Baba Bikramjit Singh were also excommunicated for taking part in Indira's Kar seva? I would suggest that this album should be bought by all regardless of persuasion after all even if it is not to your taste musically, you have given some money to a worthy cause as well as hopefully realising the immense suffering and injustice suffered at the hands of the indian state and by Gods grace, go on to realise, the very real threat it still hold's for us all today, to coin a phrase JAGO! Sukhbir Singh P.S. I thought it pertinent to add a small excerpt from the album introduction (hope not too much of a liberty I.P?) for those who may not have yet bought the album and thus not read it. When someone has the courage to speak the truth it is rarely a comfortable experience for those who have a vested interest in hiding it.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, Cheap? As opposed to quality propaganda? The Dhadhi Vaaran included in the album, as those sung by Jagowale are a matter of historical fact in that they recount actual events that took place in and around the Panjab at that time, as to whether you regard it as propaganda or information is simply a matter of whether you believe that justice and truth should be respected values or not. You see propaganda is defined as the organised promotion of information in order to assist or damage the cause of a government or movement, so by spreading this information which is factually correct they are damaging the cause of a government/state that has failed to provide any justice to the Sikhs in the past twenty years, consequently they are assisting a group (Sikhs) by raising awareness of their plight. So I suppose it is matter of whether your own personal prejudice is damaged or assisted by what you hear. Of course that is your opinion and your welcome to it, there is no accounting for taste poor or otherwise. Who are you referring to?How are you privy to what they are or are not ignorant of? Thank you so much for stating the obvious and your point is? Sikh awareness is inclusive of the understanding of the Sikhs political situation both present and past. The spiritual and the temporal are inseparable, the whole history of the Sikhs as with the history of any other 'people' is concerned with politics, think about it. The creation of the Khalsa, as example, was as much a result of the political situation that existed in that period as the socio-religious. The album is very clear in its intention i.e. to raise awareness of momentous events that have affected the Sikh nation in recent times, in that it succeeds admirably. Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, A fantastic album, well conceived and executed, definitely a welcome development. Despite many who would wish us not to, we need to raise awareness of our contemporary history amongst our youth and their is nothing at all wrong with using a contemporary style in order to do it. The album sleeve and its introduction is both informative and uncompromising, as it should be. 'Cheap' is not a word that can be associated with this album, the lyrics in the most part being based on factual history and the music appropriate to both mood and intent. I, as I am sure many others recognised the original BBC reporting sampled into many of the tracks. The album works both as a historical narrative and as a tribute (as it was intended) to the heroism and sacrifice of the men and women that dared to stand defiant in the face of shameless indian tyranny, they are now as they were then a shining example to the Sikh nation. As to whether or not the album or its artists are 'khalistani'(not my terminology),any one listening to the album will be left in no doubt whatsoever that it is a positive affirmation of the absolute need for Sikh sovereignty. Further the statement "Khalistan! The reality with Guru Ji's blessing" inside the album cover itself, is I would say a pretty unequivocal declaration. This is entirely the correct message for these particular artists as it should be for any Sikh. Well done Tigerstyle,Immortal productions and co. It is heartening to see we still have artists with the courage of their convictions. Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh P.S. Please remember to buy this album rather than downloading it since all profitable proceeds from sales are to be given as seva.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, Khalsasoulja, I would really appreciate the picture you mentioned, totally disagree with you by the way, but that's not the point of this post. If you would rather email it to me, let me know. Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, Excerpt from SIKHS OF THE PUNJAB written by Joyce JM Pettigrew Proffesor of Anthropology. "The initial crime was celebrated and indeed had been planned a full year beforehand. The Darbar Sahib complex, a place of great beauty, the spiritual and political centre of the Sikh way of life and of the Sikhs as a people, their historic home through year's of invasion from the west, had its sanctity shattered. The army went into Darbar Sahib not to eliminate a political figure or a political movement but to suppress the culture of a people, to attack their heart, to strike a blow at their spirit and self confidence. The second crime, the penetration into the heart of many rural homes by non family members in serch of the young and fervent, gave rise to the early forms of resistance in the rural areas. The third crime, the systematic and planned attck on the Sikh settlements in the trans-Jumna area of Delhi in which neighbourhoods and their Sikh inhabitants were set alight and burnt alive, was a massacre in the true sense of the term" Of course working together to achieve a common goal is its own reward but the creation of Pakistan can be attributed to many unique factors, the unity or lack of it amongst muslims as well as the statesmanship of Jinnah are not the primary factors. Certainly the state of the religion of Islam was far less an issue than the concept of a homeland for the Muslims of the sub-continent. It must also be remembered that there was slaughter on all side's as is the nature of 'riot' as opposed to a (Delhi) pogrom, further in many senses the slaughter was avoidable had Gandhi, Jinnah, Nehru and Mountbatten possessed the political will necessary. There are some telling words in a meeting between Gandhi and the Viceroy on August 27 1946 during the meeting Gandhi in the words of Wavell, "thumped the table and said If India wants a bloodbath, she shall have it" and that "If a bloodbath was necessary, it would come about in spite of non-violence"(Seervai,n 10, p.7eight) Strangely contradictory but a 'real' examination of MKGandhi reveals a man riddled by hypocrisy and contradiction whose desire outweighed compassion. Pankaj Mishra is the author of The Romantics (Picador). Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2003 Once more the tyranny of the indian state coupled with the meglomania of indian leaders has led a otherwise content people to demand their right to leave india, for these people the relative 'health' of Islam is held as no benchmark for their political aspirations. Control is only being achieved by making it the most heavily militarised place on earth. As far as the Sikhs in Kashmir are concerned, no doubt some will remember Chittisingpora just another example of how expendable the Sikhs are to the indian state, their lives, homes and dreams were once sacrificed in the creation of Pakistan, if that seems like ancient history to some. We need only look at Chittisingpora as a further indication that Nehru's philosophy "For the family sacrifice the individual, for the community sacrifice the family and for the country sacrifice the community" is still applied with vigour by the indians. CHITTISINGHPORA, NOVEMBER 1: There is an absolute calm here. Seven months after that dark night when masked gunmen shot dead 35 men, this Sikh village is still to come out of the shock. `We all want the answer to a single question. Who were those masked gunmen?Why did they kill our men?,'' says Shashinder Kaur, who lost all fivemale members of her family including her husband. ``The inquiry is very important. In fact, it is late. Let the truth come out. We want this mystery to be solved once for all.'' Sitting in the compound of the newly constructed Government Primary School,Shashinder Kaur and another widow Narinder Kaur talk of the realsuffering that sank in later -- there were no more relatives and friends toconsole them. ``My eight-year-old daughter has been ill since the massacre. She always asks me about the massacre,'' says Narinder Kaur, whose husband, Gurbakhash Singh and three other male family members were massacred. ``My children want to know everything. In fact, they were more close to their father than me and they miss him everyday.'' Both the widows have been given a job in the Government school so that they can feed their families. Nanak Singh Bedi was the only survivor and eyewitness of the Chittisinghpora massacre. He had been seriously injured. ``I can only tell you those masked killers were human beings. I cannot say whether they were Armymen or militants or who,'' he said. He too strongly favours an independent inquiry. ``It was a big conspiracy and everything had been planned. It needs a thorough investigation to expose it.'' He said the militants had not done any harm to them during the past 10 years. Bedi, however, was sceptical about the Government going ahead with theinquiry. ``Our own community came to our rescue, otherwise the Government did nothing beyond the Rs 1 lakh ex-gratia relief. They had promised a phone line, medical facility and improvement of the road but nothing happened,'' he said. ``If there had been a phone earlier, many of our injured would have survived. We could have called for help immediately I have heard mention before in this thread of Panjabi autonomy within a indian union, remember the Anandpur Sahib resoulution? This could be described as a far lesser demand in the same vein, but when the masses agitated in support of that the means adopted by the indian govt. to put them down were so brutal, so inhuman, so barbaric it was only after years of this perpetual terror that the people now do not wish to talk about it, let alone openely support it . We are trying to determine what the people of Panjab hold within their hearts, if possible talk to your relatives the pain on their face's will speak volumes. There is still deep mistrust of anyone that is a stranger who would talk about such issues, in a state where human rights workers still disappear and where a prominent politician (S.S.Mann) is being tried for the words he allegedly spoke 15 years ago, the fear of a loose tongue is understandable. The current situation of Panjabi hindus aligning themselves with the 'centre' rather than Panjab is a fairly recent development that was engineered rather than a natural proggression, it can trace its roots back to the communalising of politics by the centre in the state after 'independence'. If I can see myself as a British Sikh then what's wrong with a Khalistani Hindu? After all we were expected to be hindustani Sikhs were we not? As I have mentioned earlier I am a regular visitor to the state and I must admit that meeting a person who did not lose a family member or know someone that did or who was not affected in some way (illegal arrest, illegal detention, police beating's etc.) is the exception rather than the 'norm.' The sheer volume of young men annihilated by the state machinery was such that in effect a whole generation was lost. Indeed in some areas it was often said that entire villages would not see marriages because of the total absence of young Sikh men. Gross injustice on this scale is never forgotten, it may be quelled by brutality for a generation or even more but the history of similar movements has always shown that the state will eventually reap what it has sown. The truth of Guru Nanak Dev Ji 'Apei beej ape hei khae' is not lost on the indian state which is why every effort is now being made to tear the 'seedlings from their roots.' . Yes we do have a lot that we need to do including the creation of a Sikh state, you see the two goals, revitalising Sikhi and achieving a Sikh homeland are not mutually exclusive on the contrary, if you recall the mid 80's just after 'bluestar' Sikhi was in ascendancy all over the world. Youth that had previously not given a damn were instilled with passion and wanted to declare themselves to the world as Sikhs. It has historically always been a ' just cause' that has re-awakened the spirit of dormant Sikhs. The creation of a Sikh nation state and the resurgence of Sikhi go hand in hand. There is a very big difference between the social ill's of this country and the sufferings of the people of the Panjab in recent times, with all due respect you can not equate a dysfunctional family or being called a 'paki' with being incarcerated by the police having your fingernails removed and chilli's pushed into your anus. I am not being intentionally emotive, as I am sure you already know this is in fact quite low on the severity scale of experience of Panjabi youth. Another point which must be corrected is the availability of drugs. The availability, type and price of drugs in Panjab at this time outstrips the situation in the UK (to use your example) by such a degree to make any comparison irrelevant. What you appear to be referring to in this country is 'illicit' drugs, to try and illustrate my point, imagine being able to walk into any chemist anywhere in London and buy over the counter any drug you want for a tenth of the price of a beer without prescription legally. This is the situation in Panjab, it bears no relation whatsoever to the fact that you can buy 'weed', 'charlie' etc. etc. fairly easily anywhere in the UK. The recreational drugs that you are referring to are hugely different to the prescription opiates, barbiturates, amphetamines that are being touted in the Panjab to talk about 'reefers' is a long way from appreciating the situation. The type of drugs your talking about (Reefer/cannabis) have been available in the Panjab for centuries it's a prolific weed that grows all over the state and some people choose to use it, most don't but don't confuse these with the drugs that are causing misery in the Panjab. The point regarding the Moguls is not that they used force and the indians don't, a quarter of a million Sikhs murdered is a adequate display of force but where they surpass the Moguls is in their use of covert, Machiavellian tactic's, supplying licences to deal drugs so that the Panjab is awash with addicts is just one example. You talk of self control, addiction is beyond self control. If the same methods of overt terror were combined with these covert measures by a government in any comparative country, state, in the world you would see the same results. Again with the greatest respect and obviously not knowing your life experiences you are not in a position to say what you would or wouldn't do under circumstances that you have never experienced. This applies to anyone, the figures for addiction speak for themselves in some area's 60%. This cannot be attributed in its entirety to a weak state of mind, numerous studies into drug addiction clearly show that the environment is the number one constituent factor in determining drug use. The environment of the Panjab is 'being' changed to the detriment of its people we need to change the environment to benefit the people. It is vitally important that the world acknowledges the plight of the Sikhs and the genocide that they have been subjected to by the supposed democracy of india, by raising awareness we will be fulfilling our commitment to all those who have suffered and those who gave their lives for us. With the world in the dark 'Panjab's' will continue, look at Gujrat, only by raising awareness will india be exposed and think twice before dealing with its minorities with impunity. No offence but frankly it is the good fortune of the Jewish people that your sort of thinking wasn't prominent following the holocaust. I am sorry but the relevance to the thread of this final point, as put, about caste has me slightly confused but I think it again fall's into the category of our communities shortcomings, again. Caste means different things to different people and again is considered differently by different faiths. Indeed a Pakistani muslim Jatt may prefer to marry his daughter to the son of a Jatt beacuse that is what he considers himself to be. Although his religion is principally opposed to such distinctions. A Sikh may feel the same way even though his religion is equally opposed. Of the three religions in question it is indeed only hinduism that has a religious doctrine of caste but even this is being moved away from by some hindus who consider that such doctrine is incompatible with their 'modern' lives. I would say that the Sikh relation to caste is dependent on how we see ourselves, is it as Jatt or Sikh or Malwai etc. I think that a common link in the form of a Sikhdom would be beneficial in all aspects of Sikhi, but do I think that we will stop referring to ourselves as particular groups? Probably not but it must be understood that this sort of distinction which is endemic within Panjabi culture is a far cry from the hindu traditions of untouchability or the writings of Manu. Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh P.S. All Veer, thank you so much for your kind words regarding previous post, really is nice to have the blessing of your peer's/veer's. N.B. Panjab today : Elizabeth Colson (1992:279) "If violence is used to destroy the bases of community life and undermine trust in social relationship with young people as the objects of violence and as instruments of atrocities ..then, they will find it difficult to re-enter society even if peace is eventually re-established. Violence let loose in this fashion can destroy the future. It can also force its victims to settle for any form of government that gives them freedom from attack"

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh, Were people asking these question's when india was created? Was there a debate into the state of the adherence to Islam amongst Muslims when Pakistan became a reality? The answer in both these cases is a resounding no. Are the Kashmiris agonising over the level of apostasy amongst its youth? Are they concerned about the increasing level's of drug addiction and alcoholism? The answer to both of these questions is of course, yes. BUT. Do they feel that these are reasons not to continue their demand's for independence? NO. You see all of the objections made in this thread by poster's seem to fall into a few broad categories the primary objection seems to be the idea that in order to demand a Sikh state we must all first become 'good Sikhs' a stipulation that neither india or Pakistan or Bangladesh or any other nation on earth has ever applied to itself at the time of their conception First and foremost the majority of Panjab's social 'ill's' today are not simply a 'sign of the times' as many would like us to believe, for the information of the reader I visit the Panjab every year and have done since I was around ten years old, at the insistence of my father, the point being that I have seen the gradual change of life and attitudes as well as the impact of the 'troubles' and what that has meant to the 'average Panjabi'. Posters in this thread have talked about the apostasy amongst young Sikhs this is widely regarded as a result of the high levels of drug addiction and alcohol dependence amongst Panjabi youth, I doubt many would disagree but are you aware that it has been indian government policy that has helped orchestrate this terrible situation? According to the OUTLOOK magazine two recent studies of Punjab's drug problem have produced horrific figures. OUTLOOK magazine reports that a preliminary study conducted by the Punjab State Health Department in March shows the extent of the problem:- "More than 40 per cent of the youth between the ages of 15 to 25 are addicts. In Doaba and Majha regions 65 per cent of homes have, at least, one addict. About 48 per cent of farmers and labourers are drug addicts. Multiple drug abuse is common." Outlook quotes another survey by the Institute for Development and Communication (IDC), a Chandigarh-based research organisation, which has more worrisome figures. Giving a break-up of the drug abuse pattern in the three major geographical areas of Punjab, its study says that percentage of households affected by drug abuse is 61 per cent in Majha, 64 per cent in Malwa and 68 per cent in the Doaba." 'Dogra' (Journalist who wrote the article) says in his OUTLOOK article that, "Drug abuse is rampant in urban slum clusters like Maqboolpura, on the outskirts of Amritsar. There are several families there which have lost their men to narcotics. Says Ajit Singh, a school teacher and activist who has been campaigning against drug abuse." Dogra reports that the Taran Taran district is now infamous for its drug addicts.( Is it coincidence that this particular area was once famous for the numbers of young fighters that it prouduced for the Panjabi resistance?) In its sub-division of 400-odd villages, scores of young men turn up every fortnight to the six de-addiction centres set up by a local NGO, the Guru Arjun Dev Charitable Trust. The manager of the trust, Dr J.P. Singh, admits this effort is too small to cope with the burgeoning problem as he has to turn away many people due to lack of space as virtually every second young male from his village takes drugs in one form or the other." As a comparative similair high levels of drug and alcohol availability and addiction can be seen amongst the Christian tribes of North Eastern India who, like the Sikhs, want to establish a sovereign buffer state between Myanmar, India, Bangladesh and China. It is not coincidental that thousands of 'chemists', 'Daaktars' and registered medical practitioners (RMPS) have been issued goverment licences and proliferated into almost every village of the Punjab. Many RMPS peddle opium-based drugs (dexavion capsules, morphine or natural opium) without prescriptions. According to the OUTLOOK, "young people in rural Punjab are now getting caught in a deadly drug trap. "Its once-robust youngmen known for their boundless physical energy and strength have become shadows of their former selves." So much suffering is it any wonder that the people of the Panjab have lost hope? The last time I was there about nine months ago five young men/boys from two villages in close proximity to mine took there own lives within a six week period , two had died before my arrival the other three whilst I was there not one of them was over twenty five, all farmers boy's, they drank industrial pesticide, one of the boys had left a note where he simply apologised to his family. As I was to find out this is a fairly recent phenomenon but it is quite widespread and increasingly regular. IMAGINE Imagine a Sikh nation representing the Sikhs at the United Nations does this not fill you with awe? Imagine how more able we would have been to protect our brothers and sisters following 09/11 from attack then the empty lip service of Vajpayee and his cronies. Imagine the profile of Sikhi and how it would be raised onto the international platform, imagine writing our own 'true' history rather than have it subverted by the history revisionists of Hindutva, imagine the joy of being a Sikh in a nation that you could call your own, imagine the pride in knowing that minorities hindu,Muslim,Christian etc. are safe in your country. The only people that will tell you that this is not achievable are those that do not wish you to achieve it. A Sikh state would create a whole new generation of vibrant Sikhs, those whom had strayed from the path would again be filled with self confidence and hope. Anyone that knows about addiction will tell you that lack of self confidence and hope are addictions bed fellows. The point that seems to be missed here by some posters, to repeat myself, is that it is not the attitude or the behaviour of the Sikhs within india that will determine their future within that country it is the attitude and behaviour of the majority. 1984 was a major wake up call to the Sikhs it was far from the first and it has been followed by nineteen years of further genocide. It is frankly beyond comprehension that any Sikh's should consider themselves to be equal citizens within india. I would urge all of those that consider 1984 as history to remember that the carnage and injustice carries on unabated, the likes of Sajjan Kumar have been acquitted and declared innocent only this very year. These are historic times for the Sikhs and they are taking place here and now not in some far off place or time. We talk of the tyranny of the Moguls and the injustice of that period, we have been and continue to be in a far worse position within india at this time, for example, the Mogul regime did not feign justice to 'rub salt into the wounds' of the victims, the Mogul regime did not deny its crimes and claim innocence, the Mogul regime did not raise organisations in the garb of Sikhs to try and subvert our religion, the Mogul regime did not covertly corrupt our youth with drugs, The Mogul regime did not sponsor books that malign our religion, the Mogul regime did not cover up their crimes to belie their terror to history. In the history of the Sikhs up until this point no administration, government or state has committed the level and range of atrocities against the Sikh people, culture, history and religion as has been committed by the modern indian state and yet we find amongst us those who wish to remain within this 'union' are we masochists? Or are we unable to learn from our mistakes? Can I ask those that are opposed like 'Truth' what would it take for you decide that the future of the Sikhs as a people no longer rests within the framework of the modern indian state? Because I for one cannot envisage anything worse than that which has already taken place, If what had happened in Delhi had happened in London how many of us would consider ourselves British? If after nineteen years we saw the politicians of the day who had openly taken part in the carnage walk free from the old bailey and continue as MP's would we want to live in this country? Believe it or not there were indians who objected to the idea of indian independence from the British so this sort of stance is nothing new, in many ways they had what would be considered to be a just argument in the same vein as a earlier post as to the economic viability of such a change. The fact of the matter was that the British had created india's infrastructure as well as instituting a vastly superior system of government, education and the rule of law, india cannot claim to have done anything like this for the Panjab. But the fact remained that the vast majority of people who lived within British india wanted the British out because they wanted the right to self determination, it must also be remembered that ultimately any empire is created not for the betterment of the indigenous population but for the benefit of the empire builder, if as a result the country is improved then that really is a secondary consideration. I have never equated supporting the concept of a soverign Sikh nation with being a 'better Sikh' If you believe I have written such a statement then I would like you to show me. Truth how much do you know about the Israeli Palestinian situation? No offence but I suggest not a great deal the two situations are hugely different to make any 'real' comparison other than a cosmetic one would be pointless. One point I would make though is if you have ever met a Palestinian you would not be able to deny the determination, passion, vigour and love that person has to free his home, truly in the spirit of 'placing one's head on one's palm'. As for ending up as a political disaster, most commentators agree that the most likely arena for the world's first nuclear war at this time is the indo/pak situation, how's that for a political disaster? Another question who would suffer the most,(Sikhs) yes, no change their then, if we were already a sovereign nation, then today we would have a say in a situation that could wipe the Sikhs as a people off the face of the earth but since we are part and parcel of india we have no say whatsoever. 'Truth' a Sikh state maybe purely symbolic to you but that doesn't hold a great deal of water if your hanging upside down in a police station whilst your 'fellow countrymen' try and push cigarettes into your mouth because they know its against your faith. Further 'Raj Karega Khalsa' is an entirely political as well as spiritual statement, I noticed N30 explaining Guru ji's word's and wondered how much clarification is needed for such a clear statement of the truth. The key words here are 'in your opinion' N30 and in my opinion you are entirely wrong, a basic understanding of political systems will show that what Guruji is referring to is the internationally accepted system by which all government's have and continue to run their affairs. --"SHATAR KE ADHIN HEH RAJ, RAJ BINA NEH DHARAM CHELE, DHARAM BINA SAB DALE MARAN HE". Without the might of weapons there can be no rule, without rule you cannot practice your faith(be that a religion or in the case of the US democracy, or any ideology), without faith nothing can go well. (of course one mans faith is another's ideology but the principal remains) Without a temporal Raj there cannot be a spiritual Raj the concept of 'Miri and Piri' is well established. Often detractors talk of a 'piece of land' as if this is a base and material demand which has no place in matters of faith. I would like to remind those who align themselves to this notion that we are human beings we cannot exist without food and water, both material objects, do you consider those to be base and below spiritual consideration? Further talk of dirty politicians and goverment spies, which goverment? The government of india, so were back to the same place then, namely india. I don't see how the concept of a Sikh state should become invalid because the indian government has recruited 'patsy's to subvert, malign and discredit the 'movement' was this not what they wanted to achieve? Its a source of astonishment to me when I hear Sikhs say "well I don't support the creation of a Sikh state because they are just a bunch of hypocrites, dirty politicians and government agents." I mean yes of course, but to whom do they owe their conception? Why does the government want them there? So you will say exactly what you have just said. "I don't support the concept of a Sikh state". Indian government, mission accomplished. You do not have to follow any politicians or particular organisations to believe in the 'right' of a Sikh state the fact that you believe its creation is right and just is enough to worry the powers that be, remember the AK is not the only way (see below). As far as living peacefully is concerned, the Sikhs could have lived peacefully under the Moguls or the British had they been willing to give up their stance against tyranny and injustice, but even if we are willing to give up our Gurus ideals, would that prevent a situation I put to you in my previous post? "A assassin not a Sikh but dressed in the bana of a Sikh assassinates Mr Vajpayee tomorrow what do you think will be the result? Im sure you know but forsaking pointing out the obvious I will tell you, thousands more Sikhs murdered, burned, more Sikh children orphaned or worse, widescale rape of Sikh women and girls the burning and looting of their homes, shops and gurudwara. All this while the apparatus of the state stands by or in many cases joins in the 'fun'. Like it or not this is the reality for Sikhs in that country, I for one do not want my community to be left to that sort of unpredictable vulnerability and anyone that does is clearly not in their right mind. You see for me the Sikh state is not a question of desire but one of necessity we must protect ourselves for if we cannot how can we protect anyone?" What should we do? hope that it doesn't happen? Ultimately there may be a hundred reasons why we as a people may not want to have a sovereign state but the one reason that overrides all of them is that factor which even within nature overrides all other considerations, its called survival. Gur Fateh Sukhbir Singh N.B. Felt that a passage from a book titled 'The Sikhs in History' would be appropriate. "The Sikhs came out of the holocaust very badly mauled. Psychologically the most terrible blow was to their self-image, of their being lions - protectors of the weak and fighters against injustice and tyranny. The Hindus got the oppourtunity to rub salt into their wounds. Averring to the atrocities perpetrated by them they tauntingly cried " YAAD KAREGA KHALSA", khalsa shall remember, in parody to "RAJ KAREGA KHALSA", khalsa shall rule.