BabbarSher

Thank you for giving me your permission Babbasher ji! I did not know you were a moderator here on this site!!! Nahin scholar sahib, I am not a Moderator, but if you keep up such views, of miseducating young sikhs, you will find me in all such posts .. that you may make You are right about ChaupaSIngh rahitnama but then again we are talking about a military context and of Sunni-Mughals in particular. Again your position is totally contradicted by the historical fact that Pir Budhu Shah (a Shia) made an alliance with Guru Gobind Singh. I only posted from the texts you advise. Whats wrong with that ? You seem to change your statements and contexts faster then a Chameleon Pir Buddhu Shah Ji was a blessed person who recognised the Jot in Guru Ji. He did not make a 'political' alliance with Guru Ji. People who make political alliance dont sacrifice their sons. Pir Ji recognised Guru Ji because he was blessed, not because he was Shia. Have the sikhs never fought the shias or been hunted by the Shias during the time of Misls and thereafter? It's not about having the same opinion but about dialogue: which is exactly what our Gurus did! Dialogue, Yes, propaganda......even the gentle brainwashing kind... no ..

Dear VeerJi's, My views on Dasam Granth are: 1. Not all that is contained in Dasam Granth is Gurbaani, but there is authentic Baani like Jaap Sahib etc. 2. Dasam Granth was not compiled by the Guru's, but it was supposedly done by Bhai Mani Singh much later - as pointed out by Kesar Singh Chibber. However kesar Singh also writes that a 'sikh' cursed Bhai Sahib, that his 'band band' would be cut, yet he would remain steadfast in his sikhi. This seems to be a crude attempt to undermine the sikhi of a great sikh like Bhai Mani Singh. Please analyse, this story. See how the story attempts to say that the bemisaal shahdat of Bhai Mani Singh was due to a 'curse' by a 'sikh', not because he was a great sikh. Further there is neither a concept of Boon or curse in sikhi. All powers are in the hand of almighty not with anyone. Further a true sikh would never curse, Bhai Sahib, who himself being a tru sikhi would never do any unsikhi or manmati acticity. Kesar Singh Chiber also writes that he is writing the accounts on hearsay... something which poses a question mark on the authenticity of his accounts. He wrote his Bansavalinama when he was 72 years old !!! 3. Even if we assume for a moment that Bachittar Natak and CharitroPakhyan are Gurbaani, we cannot accord them the same status as Guru Granth sahib, that is the status of our Guru. If we were to do that, tommorrow, somone may question why we canot have Prakash of Bhai Gurdas Baani, for that is Panth Pravnit. 4. The fact, dear Veers is to sit down, think cooly and arrive at a conclusion for the benefit of sikhs all over. I wonder what stops the SGPC from having a debate within the 2 factions to resolve the issue. I have recently bought a book by Principal Harbhajan Singh Ji - titled Dasam Granth Baare Chonven Lekh. I will try and type some excerpts from it. Akal Sahai

Amrit: Please give the exact quotes ... Also, please answer the article.. the Sangat would like that .. Lallesh: Whats "no" ???? lol

Dear 'Self Proclaimed Scholar Jeo': There is a different between respect and giving the status of Guru or Prophet (in muslim terminology) to someone. The muslims (to the best of my knowledge, respect Guru Nank Dev Ji as a Fakir, not as a Guru, they do not accord the status of Baani (divine revelation) to Gurbaani. You may call Prophet Mohammed a Prophet, but do they accord the same respect to the Gurus ?? Has it something to do with the Prophet proclaiming himself to be the seal of al prophets, that there would be no future prophets after him ! ? Was the fight of the prophet, for making the unbelievers, believe in God, or was it for making them believe in himself. If the earlier, than I fail to understand ..the muslim Kalima, and why it is necessary to read it to enter heaven. Also if the earlier, then why the massacre of Jews in cold blood ? 3. Regarding the quote from Babbarsher the word Turk applies to Mughals, not Muslims in general and definitely not Shias. Pir Budhu Shah was a Shia and so were many ministers of Maharaja Ranjit SIngh's darbar. Does that make Guru Gobind SIngh a tankhaya? Scholar Ji, dont take double standards here. You use the very same Sources, to proove your points and seem to accept the sources without any hitch when they serve your purposes. (For e.g. the Kesh post). Similalrly you tend to use Bahi Kahn Singh Nabha's Mahaan Kosh to suit ur purposes when required, while at other places, conveniently skip over sections of Mahaan Kosh like - the Note on Wajib Ul Arz _ Does this reflect your scholarlly unbiased attitude. Also, the word Turk doesnt apply to Mughals in the Rahitnam. You did miss out "Musalman matrai akhiyan ein ki biswas na karai " 4. This is the Islamic section of this forum and posting this link was not wrong. I just wanted to show what quality of vichar SHias get on a regular basis. I may not agree with everything he says but sure is: it's quality and I think we should strive to give the sangat that quality of vichar! I think you ought to teach Sangat here about sikhi first, make them 'parpak' in sikhi first. Once they have indepth knowledge of sikhi, it would have been apt to make such links known/or making them subject to the lectures of other religions/sects. Muslims/Shias have enuff sites which proclaim their religion. educate their people. I wonder how many of them actually mention Guru Nanak Dev Ji or Guru Gobind Singh Ji on their website, or mention to their followers about the Universality of Guru Granth Sahib Ji and the gems contained therein. Does the Sayyed, accept the divine message of the Gurus, or tell his followers to accept the teachnings of the Gurus ? We would rather let Shias mind their own business and mind our own business. 5. I doubt very much that either BabbarSher and Truthseeker have actually watched more than 15 hours of lectures since yesterday when I posted this link. Strange how people make judgements without properly investigating things. Your doubts hold true Lalleshvari. I think it much better to read about my religion, and do Vichaar based upon our modern sikh scholars, whom you more or less reject - basing your arguments upon the old manuscripts, which you seem to quote selectively. We have not made a judegment, merely pointed out to you the text of the same sources as that you use. 8. The thread is about Muharram and Imam Hussain (as) not agha Khomeini. Still the sangat would appreciate your scholarly inputs into what has been quoted at homa.org (or have the mistranslated .....persian...as this is one of your most ready arguments) 10. Educate before you criticise.If you want to criticse a scholar become a scholar yourself!!! LOL My advice, to you : Scholar Jee, use your good brain to teach the young ones here about sikhi.....once u have done that, we will let u teach about other sects, religions etc. etc. To Guv: BabbarSher wrote: Chaupa Singh Rahitnama also says that one who learns Arabic and Farsi, is a Tankhaiya and you always advocate that we as sikhs learn these languages ...... so i guess that means bhai nand lal is tankhaiya... right? & zafarnama was written in farsi... so that makes guru gobind singh ji... ? Guv I just used an indirect manner to make across my point.... LOL : man just something which I have highlighted, Wonder where you were when lalleshvari used the same Rahitnama, to proove his points on Kesh ............................;-) Cant have double standards can we ....................... ???? Now shall we take Chaupa Singh Rahitnama as it is .. on the whole or shal we separte tyhe chaff from the grains. The point Guv is that if some "scholar" has to debate, he should do it unbiased without trying to proove his "scholarly" skills and he should be consistent in his thoughts, not opportunistic. The point is to educate our young ones in sikhi ....not to proove our communciation, or scholarly skills. If I have conufused you, just send me a PM, and I will readily clarify.

What are ur views On Ayatollah Khomeini .. and how do the Shias especially Iranian Shias and the Sayed Modarresi , view him. Please do check out www.homa.org for translations of some passages of Ayatollah's book.

This site looks set to become Shia Awareness rather than Sikh Awareness. Rather than asking the young ones here to attend Gurmat lectures, do Vichar of Gurbani, inculcate teachings of Gurbaani in our daily life, ..is this what we wanna do ..attend Shia lectures.. Turkon ki sangat karai us kusangat main n karai ant ko veh narak main jaeiga He who takes part in the sangat of the Muslims is bound for hell in the end. This sangat is described a kusangat ( false assembly ) which is the opposite of sat sangat = true assembly This Rehatnama also says Musalman matrai akhiyan ein ki biswas na karai Consider Muslim as matrai ( not related ir not brotherly ) and never trust them Bhai Chaupa Singh Rehatnama says Turk nal dosti na karai atai visah na karai Tusk dai hathon pani n peevai Turk nal ral na savai Turk di sugandh ki eitbar na karai Turk ki zabaani gyan charcha sun kai mohit n hoye Do not make friends with a Muslim or trust him. Do not drink water at a Muslims's hand. Do not associate or gather with Muslims and never place reliance on a Muslim's oath. Never become influenced by the language, learning or debate skills of a Muslim Looks like Lalleshvari has already become influenced by this Shia! Now Now Lalleshvari Ji dont tell us that Turk refers to Turkish people....not iranis, turranis, arab - muslims .. Another Thing lalleshvari Ji: Chaupa Singh Rahitnama also says that one who learns Arabic and Farsi, is a Tankhaiya and you always advocate that we as sikhs learn these languages ......

Double_edge and Ideal Singh ...ur thoughts and 'hallasheri' is my lifeblood guys ...Thanks Singhs :-) Hope our views help Orchid

"two links showing that it might be possible." MIGHT ....... is the word. Its is not possible as of now....even the sites say that the IF involves almost impossible things/resources.

If you guys cant reply with an encouragining NOTE or try and help these guys ..please desist from discussing useless topics and creating controversies which lead to no conclusions !!!!

Time Travel is not possible Orchid. Stephen Hawking once said..and it is logical that is it weere possible, we would have people already visiting us..but now he wants to differ. http://www.timetravelinstitute.com/theory/ http://www.pbs.org/wnet/hawking/mysteries/html/kaku1-1.html Personally I think it is a waste of time. We have so little time, that we should spend it in seva of Akaal rather than wondering about Kaal. :-) Akal Sahai

Orchid: I once fell in Love. Funny thing it is, one doesnt even know when one falls in love. lol So there I was, all lovey dovey, with a spring in my feet and me so thankful to God. And then something happened, my love suddenly vanished. ...sad eh .. well yes a lot. I prayed like anything....cried, begged....I wanted her......I couldmt live without her..ohh what would happen to me ...lol. nothing ...... I felt like, you feel.......God doesnt listen to me. But really I find it funny that we as mortal beings ....with not even the capabliity of knowing what will happen the next moment start doing all permutations and combinatuions and start saying that he doesnt listen. I think I would be very happy if I had got her ....BUT then that is only a thought. It was not meant to be. God, my friend is an an optimiser. Maybe he was listening to the prayers of someone else who needed the love of that gal more than I did....and thats what God did. Maybe it was good for the gal too....good for her happiness and good for her parents and family .....who would like to marry a foolish BabbarSher lol ;-) Then again maybe God listened to me. I wanted her to be very happy in life..........and so she is :-) Comon man cheerup ..... and live life ...Akal Sahai style Akal Sahai BabbarSher Did I make sense..or am I living up to my name lol

Bhai Mani Singh Ji's JanamSaakhi

Just a note Amrit: You are being too aggressive and personal. I dont like that, I am sure you wont like me in an agressive mood as well. :-) . I had valid reasons to question your quotes, and I am doing it not for my benefit but fot clarifying things to the young readers of our forum. Your quotes only lead to more confusion, rather than clarity. Its good to quote form any place, you want to but then one should have valid arguments to support those quotes. You quote nicely but then at least ponder over them before you make them available to all the readers. As far as defination of Sehajdhari is concerned, I think it is a complete myth that Sehajdhaari can use scissors but not Ustara to cut his her hair. The aim of both is the same hair removal and doing away with the natural form given by God. Whay I asked you about Berad Trimmer is, to clarify in which section you would want to put the beard trimmer in ..Ustara or scissors ? as per your of quoted ancient texts. ----- 'Guru Ka Sikh Kesaan De Ahankaar Kar Sikhi Na Gavaaye'. ('Rahatnama Bhaayee Chaupa Singh'). Is Bhai Chaupa Singh Ji only referring to hair on the head ? Keeping Kesh doesnt make one a sikh, BUT Kesh are an essential part of Sikhi. A Sikh should not be arrogant of anything, neither Kesh, nor knowledge. He has to be humble in any case !!! You will get a detailed reply to your answers and ahy I questioned your quotations.

Lalleshvari: Your explanation, has given rise to some more questions. Athough, I have addressed some questiosn to Amrit. You have responded in a general manner, quoting Wajib Ul Araz. So I think it is apt. that you respond to the other questions I raised, in a clear and pointwise manner and hence resolve my confusion. ""The seventh section of the Wajib ul Arz (Sahajdhari Rahitnama handed to Bhai Mani SIngh) clearly says that Sahajdhari men should keep a beard (sign of manhood and nobility) and that they may trim them."" ....the younger generation can easily counter your argument by saying tha the beard is no longer considered a sign of manhood and nobility. in our modern culture. The signs of nobiltiy and manhood have changed. Please ask a girl whether she thinks Beard is a sign of manhood ? In essence the reason you are giving is either cultural or social NOT religious !! ""It seems that Sahajdhari men who cut their beard are actually commiting an offence. This makes sense as the Sahajdhari should be able to prepare himself to become keshdhari though this is not compulsory. "" ....again a confusion. You use the word 'seems' they are comitting an offence. Can you please clarify this statement ... ""One should also put this in the context of the cultural issue of bearded vs. shaven cultures. If you look at the conflict between orthodox and catholics one of the main issues of dispute was beards. The orthodox clearly said that a man should keep beard and long hair even if trimmed as a sign of manhood and respect for his creator. "" How can you claim to be respecting the creator when you are modifying it, albeit a little or some more. Whats the harm - from a religious point of view, if you have already trimmed the beard upto a the fist or more ?? ""Let's say that keeping a beard even if trimmed is the minimum a Sahajdhari man should do."" ""Again. Trimming with a beard trimmer at a setting, allows one to trim close and the look is akin to shaving. Or one can keep a stuble, so minute it hardly gives the look of a beard. Such beards are very visible in the Malwa region. "" Regarding reading gurbani ourselves I don't think there is anything wrong in that provided one has had a proper linguistic training for that. I do acknowledge the tikas of other people yet at the same time I know from experience that in many taksals theyt have stopped learning the languages and just keep on repeating the master's master's interpretation. There is absolutely nothing wrong in interpreting gurbani as long as one has learned Braj, Hindi,Urdu Panjabi, Sanskrit, Sadhu Khari and Persian (at least a good knowledge of Persian). Otherwise: NO!!! ""Lalleshvari, you are on this forum for discussion, NOT as a Judge brought in to make a categorical decison :-) Gurbaani was meant to be a Universal thing, easy to learn, digest and assimilate. It is not a puzzle. It is not a question. It is an answer to all our queries. It is a guide for us on how to attain God. I dont think it is absolutely essential to learn all the languages you specified above. It is of course always good to learn different languages. And Guru Gobind Singh Ji was highly learned and versed in many languages. BUt then we forget, whether the other Gurus were also versed in all the same languages (I dont have historical proof) BUT I would say that there would be differences in the languages the learnt ? If you have any historical info to share, would be much appreciated. What is essential would be to have good knowledge of Gurmkuhi script (for Guru Granth Sahib is written in this script) and use the Teeka of Dr. Sahib Singh (or others as per one's belief) to understand the message. (The correct prononciation and the usage of context of words is very important) The again I cannot blame a foreigner who is at a stage of his life, or due to the conditions, is not able to learn Gurmukhi. I think if he uses English transalations and follows the path prescribed by Guru Granth Sahib Ji, he will be Jeevan Mukt. Please remember Gurbaani is not a Mantar, which we have to recite like a parrot. It is the meaning of Gurbaani which we have to bring into our life. Akal Sahai

The Movie is below average. The comedy is a bit low standard. I think the best part is Sush and Sahrukh chemistry. Anyway why do they always have to a sikh gal falling for the hindu guys, and appreciating the Mona looks + wearing a cross. With a couple of serds garishly dressed up with patka like things !!!! Are they depicting relaity or are they trying to influence young minds. Just an observation

Dharamraj is a mythical character, my bro. Please consider the following: Other than the Guru, who can explain that within the mind is the Lord, the King, the Emperor? ||4|| Page 61 ----------------- andar raajaa takhat hai aapay karay ni-aa-o. Page 1092 For detailed explanation, please check: http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/1092.html

Lalleshvari: Its NOT bad to read all these writings, BUT a lot of scholars have already done this. Some of the writings are written in poetic language and it is diffiuclt to grasp the meaning of the writings, sometimes even by scholars. How do you think the young minds will be able to resolve this ? Dont we all use the Teeka of Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj, in trying to understand the Baani, or shall we start deciphering the Shabad based upon our buddhi. I definately think reading the old manuscripts and then doing the 'arth' by ourselves is reinventing the wheel, as a lot of leanred scholars have done this, verbatim. Amrit above has written: "Guru Ka Sikh Sahajdhari Rom Kainchee Naal Utraave". At the same time, this Rahatnama says, "Jo Sikh Sahajdhari Hoye Kai, Chehre De Rom Luhaaye, So Bhee Tankhaaheeya". (Kainchee = scissors, Chehre = face). What about a beard trimmer my friend, set to the closest, so as to just remove the hair from just above the surface ? And why the do away with the shaving stuff, when the ultimate aim of both scissors and the razor is the same. The words anyway used in the Rehatnama is 'Chehre De Rom Luhaaye' as you have said. So what does the term Luhaye mean? Does it only refer to the act of shaving ? depilation? chemical removal? What is the difference in the meaning of the word Utraave and Luhaye? Can you please give some dictionary references? What does the word 'Rom' refer to ? vi.s hair on which selective part of the body? In the line below t is written 'chehre de rom'. So does it mean the word roam refers to the hair per se of the body, any part. Isnt the first line implying that, we can use scissors to remove all of our hair then, at least the hair from the body (if u think Kesh only refers to the hair on the head, however as lalleshvari has pointed out Mahaan Kosh meaning of Kesh is a bit different.. ).

Tut tut only 91 views and one response .......speaks a lot about our attitude ........or does it NOT !!! ?

You are a sikh - you learn, even when you are a bhuddha! You seem to be very passionate about Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj, so why dont you try to follow his example, he was fuent in several languages........ they wrote bani in different languages...... Ok, so when am I denying the fact that we dont keep learning this ?? Isnt Guru Gobind Singh Ji's authentic baani available in Gurmukhi lipi. Isn's Guru Granth Sahib, and Bhai Gurdaas Ji's Baani available in Gurmukhi Lipi. Yes, there are words used from other languages, and to understand the context and the meaning in which these are used need to be understood. So what is being suggested, first we learn all these languages, take the original's and then convert them/understand them and then discuss. I think it is way too tedious, esp for the young people here. cant we simplify things for them rather than giving a whole lot of junked philosphy. The point Harpreet is, the way 'L' keeps on suggesting such things, in a very dictatorial manner. L says: The reasons for it at actually far more complex than just the whole "laws of nature" argument and are to be sought in both the Indic, Abrahamic and martial contexts and needless to say the very teachings of our Beloved Father Guru Gobind SIngh Ji. I dont know where you bring all this Indic, Abrahamic and martial contexts into this discussion. The fallacy in this is that all such arguments can easily be refuted, Gurbaani's concept of Hukam (which u refer to as just the whole laws of nature) cannot be refuted. for e.g. Do we keep hair, only because it will make us look ferocious or do we keep it because of a Gift from God, to show obedience to His will? I have Mahankosh on my PC and have looked up the term. But then going by your logic where does the beard stop and the chest hair begin ?? Frankly I think ur influenced too much by Islamic and Hindu practices and thats the cause of your differing views.

Ideal Singh: Thanks for the nice words man BUT at least the Moderators should tell me what links I had given and how they are harmful. If they proove their points. I will not stretch the debate needlessly.

Gubilas P6 is a brillinat book! hehehehehhehehehhehe Goes on to proove what you are !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can you read and understand Sri Dasam Granth Sahib without any translation? I have read Dasam Granth Baanis. In all my posts I have ONLY doubted Charitro and Bachittar Natak. Care to discuss these ?? Can you read the original Gur Bilas Paatshahi 6? I have read the original Gurbilaas Pathshai Chevin. Kaala Afghaan's book only quotes from the original, I think...can you deny the existence of unsikhi episodes in the original Gurbilaas. Given the depth of your scholarly knwoledge, can you write a befitting reply to Kala Afghaana. You can start of with the first couple of objections he raises, and this shouldnt take much time. It will be of imeense benefit to the entire sikh jagat and we will be rid of Kaala Afghaana's views forever. (Please dont do a shoddy work like the guys at http://srec.info ..or soemthing on the way they explain Bachittar natak) If we reject 'Apuni Katha' in Sri Dasam Granth, what will be the source of history of Guru Gobind Singh Ji? History of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Why do you need to know about it ? And why do u need to know about the previous lives of Guru Ji? Do you belive that one has to do extreme penance in the Himalyas to achive God. Do you think that Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji would go on Pilgrimages and give daan on the birth of his son..... Don't you think that ALL the old Sikh history books, for example 'Mahma Prakaash', 'Gur Partaap Sooraj Granth', 'Gur Bilas' by Sukha Singh, 'Gur Bilas' by Koyer Singh, 'Panth Prakaash' by Ratan Singh Bhangu, 'Panth Parkaash' by Giani Gian Singh', are based only and only on Sri Dasam Granth Sahib? Have you read these books. I have posted from these very books only in another post on this Forum why Dasam Granth is our not our Guru. Do you know that before Gurbaksh Singh Kala Afghana, another writer wrote a book 'Dasam Granth Nirnai' against Sri Dasam Granth Sahib? Yes I know. Do you know the contents of the book and what Baanis they criticise. Do you know there was a person behind that writer, who is now there behind Kala Afghana? Do you think this person did not write any part of Kala Afghana's or Bhaag Singh's books? Whats the point ? I am not a faithful defender of Kaala Afghaan. I have mentioned again and again that he can make mistakes but is not totally wrong. I cant help it if u dont read my posts carefully. Please can we have the name of the person and his intentions. Quote: Isnt this the very Jathedar who has advocated the Gurbilaas patshahi Chevi- the most blasphemous book about sikhi. There is different between 'advocated' and 'edited'. Giani Joginder Singh Vedanti is not the first person, who has edited the book. And, did you read what Giani Joginder Singh wrote? Yes, I have read what he wote. Care to make a posting from that for the benefit of our readers...as well as what the other people advocated/edited Quote: Has anyone on this Forum read the Chartro and Bachittar Have you read the 'Pakhiyaan Charitra'? Don't say you read the translation by Narain Singh or other, please. If 'Pakhiyaan Charitra' is not the Gurbani, then what will we do with 'Benti Chaupai'? This is a most absurd reason that has been time and again given by lalleshvari Just because Benti Chaupai is from Charitro doesnt make that Baani. There has been a controversy from the starting regarding this. I have read the pakhiyaan Charitra and in my discussion with Khalsa soulja on this topic had quoted extensively on the same. If you want we can discuss the objections to the same in this very forum, I am ready anytime you are. Please dont give me lectures on Victorian prudence and all that ... ;-) Quote: My humble request, dont break this family by taking side.... Taking side? Someone continues to criticise the Baanee of 'Nitnem', and a Sikh will not take side? Are the moderators not Sikhs? You can have people like lalleshvari say ........yay to Chariro and that is not censored, yet the other people cannot even make their point. You can have him quote from Rahitnamas which give Brahmanical practices. You can have people openly give their views on Guru Nanak Dev Ji and how he want to saudi for Hajj. Why thats not unsikhi......!!!! Which Baani of Nitnem have I crtiticised. Do u mean the Benti Chaupai ?? Yes I dont belive thats Baani cause its a part of Charitro Will they allow if someone posts from Babu Teja Singh and his gang's writing here? I mean if someone has doubt about 'Bhagat Baanee', 'Bhatt Baanee', will the moderators allow to post messages against the 'Baanee' of Sri Guru Granth Sahib? If they do not, as they should, will you call it 'taking side'? I have never doubted Guru Granth Sahib. the simple reason is that it has been compiled by the Gurus themselves and we have no reason to doubt it If the same had been done by Guru Gobind Singh Ji about Dasam Granth, there would have been no dounts. But as you can see from writing sin panth Prakash by Ginai Gian Singh and Bansavalinama, Guru Maharaj himself rejected the request of sikhs to form a Granth of even his genuine Baani, what to say of compiling Charirtro with baani of Guru Maharaj and making it a Granth and giving it the name of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib. And please tell us, if excommunicating Babu Teja Singh was a right decision or not? I would be glad if you, please, tell us, if ban on 'Ramraiye' or 'Dheermaliye' was a right decisioin or not? A person who objects to Guru Granth Sahib is not a sikh anyways. If Babau Teja Singh did that he was not a sikh. Guru Ji himslef forbid association with Dheermalliye and Ramraiye, so I hold that valid as Hukam from the Guru. What about our present day Babas who distort Gurbaani and sing Kacchi baani. You have posed a lot of counterquestions to my questions and I have answerd them. Now its time to address the questions which I have given.

Dear Members/Moderators: I rarely hide my feelings I am feeling a bit out of place since my link to Kaal Afghaana website was removed under the reasoning that Kaala Afghaana is a herectic. Can you please tell me, what link I had given and how it was related to Kaala Afghaana. (Very frankly, I have forgotten what link I gave.....if u dont want to publish it , you can PM me) Now then, I would like to ask you the defination of a Herectic and therafter the names of all the people who have been declared Herectic by the various Jathedar's of Akal Takht. Isnt a herectic - if there is such a term in sikhi meant to be decided by the Sarbat Khalsa. Please remember Akal Takht - the Throne of God does not and cannot declare anyone a herectic, its the selfish people who do. The Jathedar of Akal Takht has banned Kaala Afghaana and so once upon a time Prof. Gurmukh Singh was also banned !!!! Isnt this the very Jathedar who has advocated the Gurbilaas patshahi Chevi- the most blasphemous book about sikhi. A large number of sikhs in punjab commit female infanticide, take drugs etc. and we all dont break relations with such people. Since we all dont, we are disobeying Hukamnama issued from Akal Takht. If the Jathedar Ji is so keen on resolving this conflict, regarding Dasam Granth, why dont they get it resolved at the earliest. Has anyone on this Forum read the Chartro and Bachittar and if they have why wont they discuss openly. What right do they have to go about passing judgements !!! Finally people, Moderators are meant to be free of prejudice and bias. When u guys started off, it was really very nice and felt like family. My humble request, dont break this family by taking side....as I have been saying for the past few months......Brahmanical Vichaar will always take Khalsa back. If then again u think that people with views such as mine are NOT welcome anylonger, please do let me know. I will leave without a word, alhtough it would hurt me a whole lot. Akal Sahai Babbar Sher P.S. Would appreciate a quick reply

Lalleshvari: You are taking sikhism literally. Firstly you need to understand why we keep hair. If it is to maintain our natural form then all hair (all over our body) are Kesh. Its another if due to our own weakness we want to create a grey zone. "The participation of Brahmins at funeral rituals is only allowed for Shajdharis. keshdharis should perform them without Brahmins" Cooooooooool Maaaaaaaaaan: u r fantastix. Have u read Bhai Mani Singh Ji's Gyaan Ratnavali and the defination of Sehajdhaari he gives. If you had you wouldnt have given such a statement. Really I had heard that Rehatnamas, most of em are fake, and this just prooves the point. Even if we go by ur 'clean shaven' defination of Sehajdhaaris, where do these Brahmins come in from ?? One thing is clear man, like it or not, want to belive it or not, want to pratcice it or not, but sikhi is adhoori without Kesh :-)

Yes, thats what I am prooving Honey. Please read the post carefully !!!!