shaheediyan

LOL, I look forward to commentary from future holidays!

KDSingh, what did you feed your Falcon? Did you train her to hunt..? How did you keep her housed through out the day etc.. Is she still alive, if not, how long did she live?

I'll start a new thread on pressure points and post a few words about how they are utilised in the fighting arts.

The wavy blade according to one of my teachers who has studied numerous Chinese, Filipino and Indonesian systems - was more formidable in cutting power - especially after penetration and when pulling the blade out of the body. The straight or curved blade requires more effort to cut. East of India the wavy blade is called a Kris (although there are different types of Kris). It is very similar to the Nagini balde - and in fact is without doubt based on it - it is favourite of Indonesians/Malaysians. I'm unsure if the blade would have been able to better penetrate the thick hide of an Elephant, but am convinced its's wavy design (which increases sawing/cutting power) would cause much more damage internally than a straight blade. Don't forget - the blade would have been attached to the end of the spear - so would not be able to be pulled out. Any blade fighter knows that a blade should be twisted or curved when pulled out of the enemy to cause maximum damag (as if you pull it straight out and you have missed vital organs, the enemy will incur less blood loss as the entry wound would be slight). Due to the reason the spear would not be able to be pulled out - it would make sense to incur maximum damage in entry, as there will be no opportunity to take it back out. Maybe someone with more knowledge of Indian Shastars like Maha Singh could add to/correct what I have said.

Where did you get the Falcon from? From the wild or from breeders i.e. Nihangs etc?

Personally (according to my research on historic paintings and comparing colouring/patterns/influences etc)- I don't agree Goshawk was Guru Sahibs Baaj - I thought Baaj was simply a generic term for Hawk. In Punjabi - in some cases - we use generic terms for animals - as Zoology (categorisation etc) is mainly a modern European tradition. For me, the word baaj is akin to the taxonomic rank - 'family' i.e. Falconidae. Most Raptors (according to family groups) have near identical wing and tail shape - this is kudrats way of allowing hunted animals to distinguish between the silhouette of predatory and non-predatory birds. The pointed wing theory would accord more to the smaller Falcons, Kestrals and Gyrfalcon (at a push :-). Goshawks don't have pointed wings - more flaired - so if pointed wings definition of baaj is correct - Goshawk goes out the window - so my theory stands strong again! Still sad there is little to no effort to monitor/preserve what little remains of Punjabs wildlife...

There are some great programmes on Sikh TV (Sky Channel 848) right now - where reps of the evacuee trust property board (Pakistan) show numerous Gurdwarai in Pakistan, their history and work that has been done on them etc. The presenters (all Muslim) show much respect in their work. Below is an example of the type of work that is requested from the board. http://www.dgmarket.com/tenders/adminShowBuyer.do~buyerId=1481777 There is also going to be a programme on this Saturday about a young UK Singh who goes on a yatra to Pakistan and sincerely taken back by the misconceptions he has held true all his life. There is a trend on this forum (more than any other Sikh forum I think) to show the Pakistani population as some sort of monsters - but I doubt these 'experts' have ever set foot in Pakistan - and rather, base all their hate on UK born uneducated, unemployed fanatical idiots. I know and have met people who have been to Paksitan (Sikhs) and go back every year - they hold much respect for the people their and seva that is done. My mother, sister and grandparents went there over 20 years ago (before the modern yatra tours took off) and had an experience of a life time - more memorable than anything else was the love and respect shown to them by the Muslims over there from all quarters - but esp the poor sevadaars who do all sorts of chores and even make and serve langar, and in some places perform kirtan. There are many P-Muslims today who hold Guru Nanak Dev Ji in high regard and regularly pay respects to his grave at Gurdwara Darbar Sahib in Kirtarpur - Muslims also enjoin with Sikhs sangats in various Gurdwara to enjoy kirtan done their and partake in langar. Sikhs also receive much hospitablity outside of the Gurdwarai when visiting/wandering around lahore and stopping off at non-Sikh places of interest, farms, pinds etc etc. I once met a Bajurg Gursikh lawyer in Malaysia who told me visited Pakistani every year (had done so for 30 years). He was a Cheema - and used to visit some of the many Muslim Cheema villages in Pak-Punjab. He had many friends there and was always made to feel welcome and treated with much respect. He told me - he could no longer find real Punajbi rvaaj (inc language) in India, only in Pakistan. My grandfather found the same when he visited his old pind during a detour on the yatra and met his Muslim childhood friends - some of whom had kept in touch by letter for over 50 years. Hopefully this goodwill will continue and Sikhs will get access to more and more Gurdwara across Pakistan - perhaps creating some sort of yatri gateway - and we will see many of the abandoned Gurdwarai being taken care of by perhaps poor granthis from India who will get good accomodation and a decent wage - with a possibility of building up small sangats in the areas where the Gurdwarai operate. I hope some of you will be able to watch some of these great programmes and even visit Pakistan in the near future and get a taste for the reality yourselves. More than anything - Punjabi Muslims in Pakistan still consider Panjabiyat very important - and for those that are actually involved in cultural activities like poetry - you will know how much friendship and co-operation exists amongst Punjabis on both sides - each honoring great religious poetry and figures from the other faith etc.

Just thought this thread was the most relevant to add the below article: Guru Gobind Singhs Eagles nearly extinct http://www.sikhnet.com/news/baaj-verge-extinction Confusion reigns over the population of the threatened species of Baaj (Eastern goshawk), which holds significance for its association with the 10th Sikh guru. With no census on the bird available with the Punjab Government, the bird is on the verge of extinction. Sources in the state Wildlife Department said a notification issued by the state government in 1989 mentioned that the State Bird of Punjab is Baaj. However, this bird seems to be sliding towards extinction and the state government has “failed” to either carry out a census or raise some breeding ground for it. Talking to TNS, state Chief Wildlife Warden Gurbaj Singh said: “There is no data available on its population with us, as it is now spotted very rarely in the state. Though I cannot say if it was given the status of a State Bird due to its association with the 10th Sikh guru, it is impossible to identify this bird as both male and female goshawks look same and there is no arrangement for its breeding.” Karamjit Singh Jattana, a former Divisional Forest Officer (Patiala), said the Punjab Government had failed to order any study to associate Baaj with the 10th Sikh guru or initiate steps to protect it from extinction. “Instead, it accepted a Central government grant for the breeding of falcon and ignored Baaj, which is almost extinct,” he added. State Minister for Wildlife and Forests Tikshan Sud said he was not sure if there was a difference between a falcon and eastern goshawk but officials of the Wildlife Department must clarify it. “However, I will ask officials to conduct a detailed study on this topic and if Baaj is extinct or needs breeding ground, facilities should be made available,” he added.

Account of the Akali Nihangs by Macauliffe 1881 The Akalis are the most enthusiastic members of the Sikh faith. Their origin dates from the time of the tenth and last Guru. Their name is derived from one of the epithets of God, Akal,* the eternal or immortal, a word which they are supposed to frequently ejaculate. They wear a blue dress and lofty turbans which they call dumbala or high-tailed. These turbans are ornamented with steel discs or quoits, daggers, and knives. The Akalis appear to employ their turbans as our ladies employed chatelaines a few years ago, namely, to carry handy domestic article of frequent use. In au Urdu paper prepared far me by one of the chief priests of the temple, the Akalis are styled the most ignorant, cruel, and rapacious of the followers of Gobind Singh. But they would, in case of necessity, prove brave and determined soldiers, and devote themselves to death as of yore in the cause of the holy Khalsa. Most of them professedly adopt celibacy in which, however, chastity is not always au appreciable factor. And the few who are married are not capable either by their influence or the purity of their lives of retrieving the reputation of their much defamed monkish brethren. Authorities differ as to the origin of the blue dress. One writer states that the blue dress is an imitation of the blue dress of Krishna, the well-beloved shepherd-god of the forest of Brindraban. Another states that the blue dress was adopted in imitation of Guru Gobind, who by means of it escaped from his enemies. In the time of the Emperor Auraugzeb, Gobind was closely and dangerously pursued by the imperial troops iuto the fortress of Chamkaur. He succeeded by the aid of a dark night and the gratitude of two Mughal soldiers in escaping to Bahlolpur. Here, too, his safety was not assured, and, donning the blue dress of a Mecca pilgrim and personating the Musalman priest of Uch, he made his way to the wastes of Bhatinda. It may, however, be here mentioned, that long before Muhammad appeared in the world, blue was a sacred color among the Egyptians and Hebrews. The blue costume which travellers remark worn by natives of Egypt at the present day, is as old as the Pharaohs.* In most of the exoteric observances of the Sikhs a deep purpose may be traced. When fighting was part of a Sikh's duty, it was deemed necessary that his head should be properly protected with steel rings; and long hair with knives concealed in it protected that part of the person from sword-cuts. The kachh, or drawers, fastened by a waisthand, was more convenient and suitable for warriors than the insecurely tied sofa of general Indian wear. A Sikh's physical strength was kept intact by the use of meat dreaded by the Hindus ; and, the better to assist in this object, he was enjoined to abstain from the pernicious drugs, tobacco and bhang, then so freely consumed by both Hindus and Musalmaus. Among the religious orders of the Sikhs in the Panjab, the Akalis may be said to preserve whatever remain of the customs of the last Guru. When they marry, they do not, like the other Sikhs, call a Brahmin to perform the nuptial ceremony. A Sikh priest is summoned. He reads the Anand, or epithalaminm, composed by Guru Arjan Das. A sis then thrown over the bride and bridegroom, the well-known chadar dalana marriage ceremony of the Panjab. The holy Granth is used as awitness on the occasion, instead of fire, which is an invariable concomitant of Hindu marriage ceremonies. Karaparshad is then offered to the Granth, and distributed among the guests, after which the ceremony is complete. The Sikh priest who has favoured me with this information, considers this marriage knot superior to the elaborate one of the Hindus. It is cheap, simple, and equally efficacious! Not only in the matter of marriage, but of other ceremonies also, is the Akali still more intelligent than his co-religionists. He does not, by piercing his ears and wearing ear-rings, render himself effeminate, or give a handle of attack to his enemies if ever engaged in close combat. When any of his friends dies, he does not call a Brahmin to read the mortuary service, or heap upon him a large recompense for his idle ministrations. The Akali, instead of this, bestows alms on poor Sikhs, and he collects his friends to read the Granth with him, and pray that the soul of his deceased relation may be speedily relieved from transmigrations. The strictest of the Akalis have acquired the epithet Bibekis the discriminating, or the conscientious. These have engrafted all the prejudices of Hinduism on the bigotry of the Akalis. With all the irrational asceticism of the Vaishnu sect of Hindus, the Bibekis will not eat flesh or even partake of any article of food or drink which they have not prepared with their own hands. To such au extent is this carried, that they will not even taste food cooked by their wives, eat fruit purchased in the market, or drink water which they have not themselves drawn from the well. They consider it a sin to eat bare-headed, and will pay a fine (tankhah) to the temple if they do so even inadvertently. They do not remove hair from any part of their persons. For the Hindu janeo, or Brahminical thread, they wear a sword. They are very strict in wearing the five articles of Sikh dress, whose names begin with a K. They will not drink water without immersing in it a knife or dagger. And, with an irrational mixture of spiritual pride and spiritual humility, they think themselves equal to the tenth spiritual king, Gobind, while at the same time they acknowledge themselves his disciples. The asceticism of this class not only extends to these bigoted observances, but also to their ordinary conversation. They add the word " Singh," which is peculiar to the Sikh religion, as an affix to all substantives and sometimes to other parts of speech. For instance, instead of saying, '' Put the inkstand on the table," they say " Put the inkstand Singh on the table Singh." Another verbal peculiarity of theirs may be mentioned. It is well known that in Hindustani, as in French and Italian, all substantives are either masculine or feminine. The Bibekis, with pharisaical ostentation, never use a word of the feminine gender. If an object can only be expressed by one word which is feminine, they alter its distinctive termination. Thus the word kanghi, a comb, in such frequent use among the Sikhs who religiously wear long hair, is grammatically feminine ; but when a Bibeki has occasion to use the word, he says Kangha, changing the final feminine into a masculine vowel, thus altering the gender of the word, and religiously and prudently preserving himself "from the contact or presence of even feminine substantives. Some of the Akalis call themselves Nihangs. It is said, that one day there appeared before the tenth Guru an Akali in a lofty turban to which were attached miniatures of all the weapons of warfare employed at that period. The Guru was pleased and said, that the man looked like a nihang or crocodile. The Guru saw that the turban gave a ferocious appearance to the religious warrior, and forthwith recommended it to his followers. The high-peaked turbans of the Nihanga are said by others to have had their origin in one of the marauding expeditions of Zama'n Shah against the Sikhs. The latter on one occasion were few in number and unable to cope in fair fight with their adversaries. They therefore put on the high-peaked turbans of the Turki soldiers, went armed among them at night, and completely destroyed them. The high turban was therefore permanently adopted as an auspicious article of costume. A third more probable account, however, is that on which the Sikh priests themselves appear to be generally agreed, namely, that the custom of wearing high-peaked turbans was first adopted in the time of Ranjit Singh. Phola Singh, a man of prodigious stature, used to sit daily in the balcony of the Akal Bunga. His gigantic size appeared enhanced by his high-peaked turban ; and his advice and example induced other Akalis to adopt a similar head-gear. It soon became one of the distinctive articles of dress of their order. The more insolent of the Akalis and those addicted to the use of intoxicating drugs, appear to have appropriated to themselves the designation Nihang. The word is in such bad odour in other parts of the Panjab, that a man is styled a Nihang who has taken to vicious ways and bad livelihood. All European travellers in the Panjab during the Sikh regime have complained of the gross insolence, and in some cases of the foul language or maledictions employed by these Nihanga, or Akalis, to Christians. No such thing has, I believe, ever been witnessed in recent times. Several of the Akalis still have, no doubt, a defiant air, but all of them with whom I have conversed I found uniformly courteous and civil. (taken from Kamalroop Singhs Blog)

Great work this man is doing. Rest of the article: Another article of this 44-year-old scholar and activist, ‘Sikhs of Sasaram’ was read at the Third Conclave for Forgotten Sikhs held at Ghaziabad, Uttar Pradesh in October this year. “The Sikhs of Sasaram suffer from a sense of alienation and inferiority complex. Unfortunately even in Punjab too there are a few people who look down upon Sikhs in other states. I wanted to bridge the gap and I felt they will have to be integrated with the Sikh brotherhood. I think that their sentiment that there should be a ‘roti beti di Sanjh; (deep relations) between Punjabi Sikhs and those in other states like Bihar is quite justified,” Gill, who is a graduate of Calcutta University from Jaipuria College, Shyambajaar, said. Gills are originally from the village of Dhudike of Moga district of Punjab which was also the birth place of great freedom fighter Lala Lajpat Rai and poet and novelist Jaswant Singh Kamal. In 1942 his father Late Sardar Kartar Singh came to Khulna, now in Bangladesh and in 1945 he came to Kolkata and settled here. He was the president of Gurudwara Sikh Sangat, Dum Dum, for many years and he died in 1994. It was in that year that his son became the secretary of that organisation, a post he held till about two months ago. Gill is the main organiser of the Purvi Bharat Sikh Mission set up by Sikh Gurudwara Prabandhak Committee (SGPC), Amritsar, in 2006 with a view to teaching the ideals of the Gurus and the basic tenets of Sikhism among youngsters of this part of the country. The Mission organises classes on Saturdays and Sundays at three gurudwaras at Burrabazzar, Narkeldanga and Belur where the Gurumukhi language, and many aspects of the religion are taught. “Today’s world is ravaged with problems like communalism, casteism and other social evils that creates a gulf between men. I always said to myself that I was not born to just grow up, work for my daily bread and butter and die at the end. So I always thought if I can do something that creates bonhomie and love among men, there will be nothing like it,” said Gill who also holds other responsibilities like Secretary, West Bengal Association of Minorities Educational Institutions and Punjabi Sahit Sabha. The activist and scholar has also been invited by the government of Punjab on several occasions for consultations on the issue of education and culture. “Whatever expenses are incurred for my various activities I pay from my own pocket and also sometimes my friends well wishers help me . But I don’t grudge because I have the blessings of God with me,” Gill said.

Lol, looks like they are letting their Pirating successes get to their head!!

Never undermine a ref! You never know how he will enforce his decision!!

In all honesty - in my experience of having spent time with all manner of jatha bandiyan etc and having read a little puratan ithihaas - I have found most contain unique elements of what I recognise as once pooran - even AKJ. I once saw 2 AKJ Bajurg meet in a Gurdwara in Punjab (forgotten it's name - it's the one where 6th Master rested and put his sword into the floor - creating a spring (Amrit Jal). They both were very old, and met with laughter, giving each other the tightest hug I have ever seen and id not let go - the went into the AKJ Saas Graas (traditional AKJ way of meeting) and where totally lost to the busy world around them - some people thought they were hyperventilating - but I saw tears of love coming from their eyes - it was one of the most beautiful things I had seen - and never saw and or have seen it amongst any other AKJers - with the reality/purity I saw it with these Khalsai Bajurg who clearly had not seen each other in may be a long long time. This made me think about the love Khalsai would have had for each other in the old days... That aside, comments above have some validity in them regarding the puratan-ness of AKJ in general (esp as it is clearly a new Jathaa with no kul/parampara), but I would say that to some extent or another - no sampryada or jathaa is pooran puratan either - all have been diluted/influenced to varying extents.

Luxury religious experience, receive maximum blessings with zero inconvenience. Isn't it great to be rich :-) It would have been a great effort if the profits of this enterprise could have been recycled back into Sikhi somehow, it never ceases to surprise me the lengths people go to to make profits in Gods name. This is the kind of thing the hibernating SGPC should have spearhead.

There is some truth and correctness in why so many countries blame 'organised religion'. The word organised is the key. Where the idea is planted that your path is better than or more valid than others etc than there will be social disharmony - the route of intolerance, prejudice, hate and war. Sikhi has sadly also started to fall down this 'its our way or the highway' mentality. All of the great religions at some point (after organisation/consolidatio) tried to propogate their faith and takeover lands in the same breath. Be it Hinduism, Christianity, Zorastriansim, Judaism, Islam etc. For me, the real religion exists in tiny minorities of each of the big groups - where emphasis is given to introspection/meditation and truth without bounderies. The rest (majority) are simply in the same secular tribal trap and utilise their faith to a varying level of success through personal effort/research. When Guru Gobind Singh spoke of corruption in religions, I believe he too was talking about the organised/lost majorities.

Seems like you lack a little confidence bro, thats unbecoming of a Singh... :-( Chess is not a difficult game to play and neither is training in martial arts. The only thing that is somewhat difficult is progression and understanding/application at a higher level, and I don't believe this requires as much intelligence as it does dedicatio/practice/an open mind and discipline. 7 years old is a great age to introduce chess and martial arts. But these things are a regular part of your homelife, then your kids will be dabbling in them from the moment they take there 1st step.

Amardeep, those things were forbidden for Singhs or Gurus sangat, not from the entire land, your example is not comparable to secular government. Re the ban to call on prayer, I only recall one source it was Hari Singh Nalwa who enforced this in one territory he was governIng rather than M Ranjit Singh across Punjab?

Amardeep, could you please provide Sikh sources which say the things you mentioned were banned in the raj of M Ranjeet Singh. It seems odd/contradictory, especially as he had appointed Muslims to high positions in his Government. Thanks.

I would like to recommend this excellent book to the sangat here who have an interest in 'excellence'. It marries two of my passions together - chess and martial arts - and is written by an ex-child prodigy of Chess who was once identified as being a possible replacement for the legendary Bobby Fischer (my all time fave Grand Master). He later went on to become a world champion in the highly competitive Tai Chi Chuan push hands arena. Josh demytifies many things and propogates the art of 'learning' and shows how it is transposable to any field. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Art-Learning-Journey-Optimal-Performance/dp/0743277465 And for those of you that love Chess - no better way to think like GM than be inspired by one: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessplayer?pid=15940 On another note - I would like to quote the below pangati of Guru Gobind Singh Ji and request all Singhs here to plant it deep in their heart and let it germinate in the New Gregorian Year by finding and learning a real combat art (weapons and open hand) with dedication, passion and intelligence - and be ever ready to comfortably defend yourself and yours. With a good level of skill and rehit of practice, you will find yourself to be a much calmer and thoughtful individual - with the knowledge you have nothing to prove. Also - please promote this lifestyle change to those around you. ਪਾਹੁਲ ਖੰਡੇ ਕੇਰ ਛਜੱਈਏ । ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਬਿਦ੍ਯਾ ਸਬੈ ਸਿਖੱਈਏ । Take Khandey Di Pahul and all should learn Shastar Bidiya [the science of arms]. ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਕੀ ਫਤੇ ਗਜੱਈਏ । ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਬਸਤ੍ਰ ਤਨ ਸਜਵੱਈਏ ॥੪੦॥ Chant Vahiguru Ki Fateh [The victory is the Lords], and adorn yourself with weapons and clothes. ਸਿਖ੍ਯਾ ਜੰਗ ਕਰਨ ਕੀ ਦੱਈਏ । ਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਮ ਇਨਿ ਕੇ ਰਖਵੱਈਏ । Give the teachings of how to wage war, in this way you shall retain the name Singh. ਗਾਥ ਬੀਰ ਰਸ ਸੀ ਸੁਨਵੱਈਏ । Listen to the stories which inspire 'Bir Ras' [warrior spirit]. [Naveen Panth Prakash, pg. 1571, Vol. 3] http://www.manglacharan.com/p/tradition.html

Could I do a benti to all UK sangat reading this post, please, take 10 minutes out of your holiday time in the next week or so to complete this very importnt survey - the minimum sample % needed to reflect the mindset of the UK Sikh population has still not been reached. We all seem to be have plenty of time to share our opinions on all matter of subjects - but as a Kaum - when it comes to progressing communal help/success for our community in real ways - we never reach teh mark. If you could also please send the English and Punjabi links to family members, maybe even sit down with your elders on a PC/Laptop and help them complete it, it would be highly appreciated. Thank you.

"I can't agree Singh. Some races/people just ain't got it in them." Then sadly, you are missing the core realisation that Jap Ji Sahib should be awakening in us. It is talking about 'man', not 'white man'. The Chinese are raping all the nations of the worlds resources - esp Africa and Asia - they are clever - they are playing a different game - there is nothing to say they won't flex their muscle if need be in the future. When we talk of nations, we talk of those people in power, the paapi powerful minority, not the people 'hence' your good experience of chinese students being totally irrelevant as well as your generalist attack on white mindsets. The Romans, the Egyptions, Mongols (religion of the Blue Moon), USSR, hell even the Indians (Ashokas time) had no issues with world domination (as far as was in their power). Your ascertation of tribal cultures is incorrect IMO - be it S-Americans (Mayans etc), North American Indians, Maoris, Papuans, Australian Aboriginies etc etc - the culture has always been survival of the strongest - with regular war with neighbours being natures population control. What happened to many tribal cultures is very sad, but in a cruel way, it's just a natural albeit advanced/supercharged extension of what was already occuring.

Singh - the attitudes you talk about are prevailent in every nation, more importantly, in every man. I am sure you have read a little world history - every continent and nation on this Earth has had a go so to say. At present, its not the wasps you should be worrying about, but the Chinese, and even then - the large % couldn't give a rats about anything else than securing one simple meal for their family everyday.

'We' or 'they' are not responsible for the actions of our ancestors, be them good or bad. So the British of today do not deserve this typical 'goreyan ki esi ki thesi' attitude which still common amongst our folk. Same way we don't deserve any respect for the heroism or bravery of our ancestors. Everyman should be judged solely on his actions. Singhmunda - everwonder how the UK Sikh population reached 0.5 million? I'll give you a clue - it wasn't a gradual allowance. In fact some people fell to the depths of marrying their own brothers and sisters (Anand Kharaj) in order to get them into the UK. Introspect before you judge others. Everyone wants and is entitled to a better life. Human migration is the reason we have the wonderful variety of cultures and faces around the world today. Ancestory of our parents a few millenia ago isn't exactly 'Indian' is it?

I know a few couples who got married or engaged whilst at Uni, all are very happy. It actually helped them to focus on their studies as they didn't feel the need to live a student life, and have student experiences. It helped them to mature early. Again, I also think it naurally help the girl to mould into her new family as her personality is still changing as opposed to the rock solid character most girls develop after numerous post grad qualifications and eventually going into jobs at a Managerial level etc... the typical career minded girl 27 year old girl does not fit into her new family as easily as that still developing/studying etc. Just my opinion, of course there are exceptions to rules and all that. The above may sound a little old fashioned - but if the subject is khojed, you will find many more benefits e.g. having children at a younger age is more healthy and less risky for women etc.