vinegar

Ha this is better than Eastenders...how on earth did you chumps get so off topic

Really? All I've seen from the Sikh youth (in general) in the west is dogma, proselytising and propaganda about keski etc with little tolerance for people with a difference in opinion. They are simply the equal and opposite of the outgoing establishment imo. Hope these ones prove me wrong.

If you're doing it right you're going to see and hear all sorts of stuff. enjoy the ride

Many thanks.

I appreciate it and all, but 1GB for Japji Sahib/Jaap Sahib is ridiculous.

i.e. you fail to see that Suleman was given the jugti to get mukti by Guru Sahib and rather see the situation as some sort of ploy to imply that Sant Isher Singh is more powerful than Guru Sahib.

Maybe if you actually read the book or listen to the tape properly you can discuss this without coming off like an ignoramus. edit: before you reply, the keyword is 'properly'. You clearly have not listened to it/read it with any real understanding. The fact that you assume Guru Nanak's hukam to Suleman as implying a lack of power in Guru Sahib says more about your sharda than anyone else's. Suleman went to Guru Sahib and was given the jugti by which he could get mukti, nothing comes for free; serving his sentence changed from a punishment to part of his bhagti. If he hadn't gone to Guru Nanak in the first place he would still be in the cycle of birth. 'Je ko bachan kamawe santan ka, so gurprasadi tariyai' You go to Guru Sahib, do ardas, get a hukamnama and follow it. To sit around and whine that becuase you're not getting something right now means that the Guru is not powerful blah blah is inane.

I said that the stigma against it has nothing to do with Sikhism, not that the drug has any formal place in Sikhism. My point is that marijuana use is being demonised because people growing up in the west learn about it from the media and politicians. Case in point - the person that was ranting about 'lowly drugs', the only way they can make that claim without being a hypocrite is if you turn down drugs that are legal/sanctioned by government too. Most of Sikh history is passed along by oral tradition, and I have more respect for Sikh oral tradition than the opinion of some 'scholar' that I can cite, so I don't have any references to give you, but I have heard many Mahapursh mention that bahng was kept in the langar as part of sakhis teaching something else. Marijuana in itself has no standing in Sikhism, and as such has no sanction or approval within the framework of Sikhi - my point is that recreational use in order to slightly alter the state of mind through marijuana is no different than drinking coffee to wake up in the morning, or red bull to stay awake etc.

What have you got against marijuana? Any stigma that you may have is undoubtedly a product of growing up in western society where it is considered 'bad', which has nothing to do with Sikhism. On what logical basis are you saying there's something wrong with it as opposed to, say, caffeine which is a lot more addictive?

What has that got to do with anything? All I have done is stated my opinion that the religious persecution as mentioned by Xylitol ant Matheen will be manifest in the form of extremist 'religious' people oppressing the moderates or 'true' believers. As far as the 2012 thing goes, like I stated in the post, it is not my opinion but that of various practitioners of Amazonian shamanism/ayahuasceros ets that have told me this. It may be '4 years from now' at the moment, but it wasn't '4 years from now' when first prophesied by the shamans centuries ago. This is in contrast to your imaginary fabrication of what significance this date has to these people, no matter how appealing it is to your way of thought (which, given that you think you know how I think from a 30 word post on the internet, does not inspire confidence).

The Mayan establishment welcoming the Spanish is slightly different from shamanic prophecy. From what I know of Amazonian shamanism, 2012 is a regular them in their form of contemplation, signalling a turning point in the universe, not the end of the world. Descriptions of visions of vibrations of increasing frequency leading up to that point and the idea that the current state of the universe will be inverted are common, not just in traditional verbal tradition but also from contemporary anthropologists studying and participating in their rites. When the actual war happens etc is debatable. As far as religious persecution goes, I am of the opinion that it will present itself in the garb of religion. Extremist Islam already holds sway over Asia and North Africa, extremist Christianity holds sway over North America and is making inroads into Africa and parts of Asia and Australasia. They openly speak about how their actions are intended to bring forward the end of the world and are about as united as such a large interest group can probably be - when the evangelicals vote they pretty much decide who the president of the US will be. I digress, but my point is there - it will be the religious extremists and maybe militant atheists doing all the damage.

Uh The British invented caffeine?

qft

We are talking about slightly different things, I meant that Bhagti Marg and Karam Marg in the context of Sikhi are the same in essence in that they seek to find and be one with God.

translation?

THey are the same in essence, not in practice.

What exactly is a sehajdari

Bhramgyan?

lol they could have at least used a different photo

Many roads, one destination.

What would you say, in general, is the ethnic make up of native Punjabis? Do they have any Greek/Afghan/Persian blood mixed in from all the invasions/war?

I disagree. I'm not saing they can't do it, but to say that it is them that have the knowledge is just false.

Suleman was told to serve his joun as a bhoot and then go find St Isher Singh by Guru Nanak Dev ji.

maybe you should buy a scooter?

and?