iced-cream

hello.. i have an update if anyone is interested

is easier than trying to log onto this forum. what is with the excessive paranoia? i can never get those stupid security visual codes at the first go - it took me 7 attempts just now. why bother? is this by design to keep people out?

yes.

That is a wonderfully concise description of the human condition. Immediately I can see that I have gone through exactly those early stages and will probably face the other ones later in my life. i just dont see any alternative to it. That is just how things have always been, how can it be any different? It used to be that i would make moral decision and take pride in having made them. This in turn made me stronger because I felt as though I was in control. But once you go along with Sikhi you sacrifice your 'individuality,' you are just living like a robot - the decisions are already made for you because a Sikh acts in a certain way and there is nothing more to say than to follow them. I found t to be a horribly stifling philosophy. And yet that is the path for the Sikh who takes after the Khalsa ideals. I have a cousin brother who is not religious. He does not care for any of that spiritual stuff, or Sikhi or anything like that. It simply does not matter to him one bit. He believes in God though. Anyway, I have watched him grow up from a teenager into a man and seen the virtues of being a decent person without the extraneous religious baggage. Common sense is his main guide - if he feels a decision makes sense, he will act accordingly. He has an uncompromising respect for traditions and does not breach them without reason. Him deciding not to drink alcohol is a startling moral decision - something i duly respect. His father drinks occasionally, and he would be quite within his rights to drink (sensibly), and yet he chooses not to. Similarly there are many such decisions which he consciously makes which make him a very moral person. I think he is probably more moral than me, and I am supposed to be the 'saintly' one around here. In fact I am a complete pakhandi compared to him because his life choices are completely his own - whereas mine are ostensibly out of my hands and externally determined. Each 'evil' he overcomes, each correct decision he makes, makes his character stronger and refined. It is the opposite for me. Sikhi was supposed to make me stronger and make me a better person, and yet it has turned me into jelly. I find myself doing and saying things which I dont even truly believe - and I do this because I have commited myself to a way of life that grows further and further away from that original spring of inspiration. I can not claim I am a better person for all of this trouble - I simply haven't made any progress that I can recognise. I miss that wonderful feeling of doing good - because I _choose_ to do good, not because I have to, because I am a Sikh. On the other hand I cannot help feel that he is missing out on all of that 'spiritual stuff' - which really is a great source of pleasure. But then what good has that spirituality stuff done for me? Isnt it better to go without that spiritual stuff and be a good, useful productive and moral person - than be a spiritual one forever conflicted with worldly affairs? The answer to me is obvious. I will take my chances with a worldy life.

never mind all that. when my Guru tells me something i can use in this life to improve my life now then i will be moer and willing to listen and heed

beautiful post, but im afraid i will only be swayed by logical arguments. if we are talking about doing good then i know the best way is to become powerful and wealthy. when a person is those things then he is useful to others, and when you are useful you can be helpful. if my intention is to be a positive influence in my community then i can best achieve that by making sure i am very successful and thus maximally useful. If i can give someone a job, or fund someone's education, or sponsor a poor relative from back home, these are all things I can do with money. I do not mean to ridicule saints - i have great respect for our religion and our faith. We all have our own ways to achieve our goals, and I am choosing one I feel to be the right one for me.

where does sikhi tell me to have *some* hunger? some desire for material gain? when does Sikhi teach that lesson?

Mekhane'ch Jannat Who is blaming anything on God? In fact who is woeing about the state of society? Not me. We did not create the society we live in - we inherited it. Previous generations evolved it, to be sure, and we will leave our marks on it for the future generations, but it was not created in our minds or anything silly like that. Idealism (in the philosophical sense) holds this, but idealism is not anything to be taken seriously. I have said nothing of any concept of God and do not intend to. What i said was 'god created the material universe', which is fairly uncontroversial. It is no suprise to hear views of idealism here - but this just shows how far from reality some Sikhs really are. The funny thing is the addition of "please contemplate gurbani more deeply, " as if this can remedy the complete lack of common sense and sanity that the person has cultivated in his fantasy. Have you seen the movie where Russel Crowe plays a madman who sees hidden and secret messages in newspapers? Well our ideal brothers play the same game, but they see hidden messages in gurbani. They think if they comtemplate real hard they'll see something that is apparently not there. Thus their idealism becomes justified in Sikhi and sanctioned by no less than the eternal Guru. The Sikh religion so famed for its straight-forwardness and practicability suddenly becomes a mystical one where nothing is certain and things are always deeper than they seem. One must obviously prescribe to idealism first, ofcourse, otherwise the contradiction is blindingly unavoidable. See, this troubled me for quite a while, but happily i no longer carry this delusion. To help society you must go against it? This is a typical view of idealism. I do no subscribe to it any more. People are not that bad, and do not confuse this to be a "khao peo aish karo" statement, because it is not. I know to an idealist things are not good enough, but nevermind, such a person has unrealistic expectations that can never be met. Even now you are talking about the after-life, about running out of karma, and this and that. Tell me, how is this useful to me *now*, in this life? It simply is not. Nothing you can say from your idealistic perspective is worth an ounce of common sense - experience from reality. I can talk to the most despicable street wise person and he will give me more useful wisdom than the most paunchea idealist - who's ideas and thoughts are of another world, far removed from reality. As i said, my problem wasnt my morality, or my sense of goodness - it was a poor appreciation of reality - and Sikhi practiced in the idealistic way made things worse. Everything you have said applies in the same way. So tell me, what good are such things if they do not improve my life in the real world?

Vinegar This is a typical view: It assumes that Sikhi can always help someone - and if it doesnt - it is because the flaw lies in the person. But it is a mistaken view. To some people, like myself, Sikhi cannot help you. It can actually have the oppositve effect and make things worser. Talking about sleep is facetious - the pursuit of spirituality is the greatest vice. It is actively seeking to put yourself to sleep. Truly waking up is accepting the reality that surrounds you and living it without fantasy. Spirituality is fantastic - and it is so because it is fantasy. Waking up is realising that as humans we have responsibilities and we have roles that we should concentrate our intellects and abilities in filling. Society has room for all colours - and there is room for saints - but a society full of saints is doomed to fail. True society needs men who have all sorts of worldy motivations and act upon them. It requires the greedy, the selfish, the proud, the insecure, the wealthy, the poor. It needs men to be obssessed about art, or science, or language, or money or something else, that is not necessarily spiritual. It needs all of these things which are supposedly "materialistic" and without it we would have very little to show for ourselves. We are physical things. The world is a physical thing. We live and deal with physical things. All of our lives involve physical things. Being a sikh is no different. The physical universe is our realm - and no sane person can ignore or deny this. The Sikh religion followed faithfully - as i attempted to do - will not allow you any room for pursuits of material goods. If you are born into comfort and wealth, as I was, I should have no impulse to acquire more: that would be selfish. I should instead make the best of my leisure and in the pursuit of higher things - like enlightnment. But this was no good for me: it was a waste. One can aspire to be a great Sikh, but what does that mean in this day? Another rebel without a cause? Perhaps i should borrow one from our liberal brothers? And then in pursuit of purpose, I will become unsatisfied with the traditions and society I have inherited because they do not match up to those crisp liberal ideals - should that mean I become cynical and skeptical of our people? And when will I have time to make a real contribution because the problems are so daunting and the urgency so pressing? What can one person do? And taking on such big problems should personal ones become unimportant and insignificant that it does not seem silly if I neglect them? Nevermind that as a naive person without much worldly experience as most concerned friends of humanity are, I am unlikely to have the sense to realise what problems are to be left alone, and which ones are to be tackled, and in tackling them, what is the best way to do so by common sense, which I lack? And what to do when the problems are not so much problems as they are facts of reality that ever have been true - and no one thought to see them otherwise until the age of misguided but very much enthusiastic reform? I agree with you when you say "I dont think you understand what Sikhi is at all," because I do not think it is beneficial for anyone to worry about such things.

I dont understand what you are saying - and what you have written makes no sense to me. These are good things to learn - but you dont need Sikhi to teach you them. I didnt need Sikhi to teach me these things directly - my parents did that job just fine. But, if i were a worldly person and did not know such things, then knowing them would benefit me greatly. But I never had that problem to solve. It simply did not exist. Sikhi though never taught me to want to be successful, to crave and seek wealth, to want and achieve the admiration of others. It is not the job for Sikhi to put that desire in a person - indeed Sikhi does the opposite, it tends to remove it. God blessed me with great comfort that I had no need to struggle in my life for material things: and facing up to a strong Sikh influence, I dared not dream of becoming wealthier (why would i? that would be greedy). But that is what i needed to do. I was also seduced by the mystics who indulge in romanticism - to them one must look inside, the world outside is not of any importance. The way to be happy, they would claim is self knowledge. Looking back - it was all a waste of time. My time and effort would have been better spent getting as much life experience as possible: dealing with people, learning the ways of the world. Logically the most successful people are those who have a sharply honed common sense. They have a wealth of experience to draw upon and i admire such people for their penetrating straightforward rationality. In comparison so-called intellectuals and spiritual men seem shallow and indulgent. My point is simply that I started with a specific problem - having poor people skills, of lacking a purpose in life. What i needed to was immerse myself in worldy matters and concerns and gain valuable experience. Instead I thought Sikh would solve that problem - it did not because it cannot. Religion can help a materialistic person be less materialistic - and this is a good thing, but it could never have helped a person who was not at all materialistic become more materialistic. In fact I am at a loss to see how any Sikh can achieve the stated goal of Sikhi - to create a householder saint without coming with a certain level of wordliness and thirst for worldy success from elsewhere.

People like you would say there are almost none. This makes such people feel good about themselves because they think they can aspire to be Proper Sikhs. I used to feel this way too but luckily I grew up and shed this childish attitude. It is a recipe for big-headeness and a heavy superiority complex that cannot help anyone. The doubt you mention is convenient: It gives our egos free reign to dream. This i found to be harmful: day dreaming is a vice - not a virtue. Yes i know you believe this. That there are lucky people who potentially and truly are religious. This is not useful. That such people exist has no bearing on my life, nor on yours. That some spiritual savant exists somewhere will have no effect on my life, unless i take that savant as my guru. I already have one, anyway. Religion makes us say, think and believe stupid things. Want proof? Here it is: We create the environment? Sir, God - the creator did that. not us. We live in a material world - how on earth do you expect it to be anything but materialistic? I am sorry for being argumentative - I only do so to show that I have considered these things already, and my current knowledge has been informed by some rational contemplation, not emotion.

I have no prentensions about what I am - i am hardly significant in the scheme of things. As such, if i lived in a time or place where such pressures were not apparent the way they are now, then that would be quite satisfactory for me. A small contribution to society is all I can realistically hope to make. I am aware that in the past Sikhs had to suffer much greater consequences than most of us go through now. I understand this fully - and still think there is a big difference between being part of a unified community (in the sense of fashions and common practices) and being exposed to danger for belonging to it - and - being part of a disjointed community where the pressures on any one ordinary member are such that the pressure itself is against the stated ideals of that community. Simply, i am happy to be a sheep (in the sense of following the community) even at peril - rather than being a lion and being quite alone while doing so. I am community oriented - and see my immediate purpose to serve mine as best as I can. The pursuit of spirituality and such like do not concern me, and quite honestly, I see them as indulgent. We cannot build any useful community without hard work, diligence, commitment and indeed knowledge of the real world. Speculation of extranatural matters is not constructive but it can still give us intellectual pleasure. You cant build a city on faith alone, but it is has some merits that each one of us can recognise. My view is that the role models I have adopted manage to do things the Right way. They blend successful honest livings with regular breaks for religion. They treat religion quite seriously - and especially so when they have the leisure to do so. They are not obsessed with religion: but treat it as an essential and integral part of good living. They are world-oriented and have the rich wisdom gained from worldly living: their experience is deep and multi-faceted. Something that could not have been achieved by taking too seriously that spiritual stuff - as that would invariably neglect the real. Even considering this seriously seems absurd - but i once made claim to do just that. I believed it too. More and more, I believe the proper role of religion is to take a worldly person and try to jolt him into being a little less worldy - or a bit more conscious about the Big Picture - but it can never succeed in taking a person who is not worldy and making him worldy. It cant succeed in benefiting a person who doesnt know the ways of life: how to deal with people, how to get what you want, etc. Religion will only make things worse for him - because it will tell him "those things dont matter anyway.." .. "what matters is inner happiness" or something equally vague and useless.

I am looking for some advice but I wont ask any particular question for which an answer I expect you to provide. Please have a read and give me your thoughts, I dont mind what you say, but I encourage you to share them without hesitating. Firstly I will tell you a little about myself and my problems. When I was a teenager I became caught up in all this religious fervour and committed myself for a life of righteous living. It is something I scarcely share the same enthusiasm for these days. Then I had decided, quite passionately, that I wanted to be a "proper" sikh, with all that entailed. I plunged myself heart first into the mystical world of Sikhi. As one can imagine, the romanticism did not last long and now I am left at cross-roads. Unashamedly like every single human being to have ever lived, I had been looking for a "fix" for my life. And i thought religion was the way to do it. Well religion can give you many things - it can give your life meaning, it can give you friendship, community - it can even give you happiness and euphoria. All these things I attained in various degrees through my religious experiences. But (personal) religion never improved my character, it did not make me stronger or give me any useful wisdom. It did not add to the moral framework I had adopted from my parents, nor did it solve any of my problems. In fact it only added to them because to a dreamer like me, so-called enlightment is only a prescription for greater dreaminess - going further away from reality - and becoming skeptical of, and growing distant from, worldy affairs. In fact what I had needed all along was not greater solitude - I needed far less. I needed to immerse myself in the real world and be more worldy. I have done this now, and seen how it has given my life meaning. I have a purpose now: to earn an honest living - to provide for my family - to become successful in my career. To be in contact with many people and actively socialise with many others. Further to achieve these ends does not require me to be particularly religious, nor do i think it is even a requirement at all. Religion, now, is actually in my way from achieving those things. When i walk into an interview, I am immediately conscious of looking strange with my beard. You try to cut a clean professional image - but it doesnt help to have all that facial hair. I have brothers who are clean shaven and they look so crisp and fresh, and I simply do not. I actually havent got much of a problem with my self image - but i am aware that others might, and that itself is the problem. Further my experience with girls is such that I am aware that few of them are willing to consider a kesh-dhari for a mate. It is usually an unsaid thing, and only one of these girls has been obnoxious enough to admit it forthright, but it is evident that it a turnoff to most girls - sikh girls included. I am nearing marriage and I realise my options have been limited greatly already. This shouldnt be a problem. There are singhs out there who manage to lead rich fulfilled lives despite all the discrimination. I applaud them and once aspired to be such a person. But my situation is unique. I can imagine another sikh in my place dealing with others with humour, confidence and comfort. I simply cannot do this - and if try - well it is too obvious that i am trying and it becomes awkward for not only myself, but to the other person. I have a cousin who has a great personality and trims his beard despite wearing a turban. I think he made the right decision. He still gets to be a singh but doesnt have the rest of the problems that I have. He is lucky and I think he got it right, while i got it wrong. I realise I have just outlined a standard problem with no expectation of a novel solution, but that is it - please share your thoughts.