Kavita

You are discussing ethics and liturgy. This is a discussion on jurisprudence.

Who's talking about Islam or Judaism here. All I see is that you are ready to put important decisions in the hands of five people and their judgements even though you have no proof whatsoever that what they decide is divinely inspired. The case of the two groups of panj pyare just shows how unreliable that system is.

So you are relying on human authority basically. That's all I needed to know.Thanks.

Good start kirpa_karo. Finally someone who provides and answer.It's a good example. A tankhaya has to apologize and do seva or pay a fine to get back into the Panth. But a patit who commited one of the bajjar kurahit has to take amrit again. So curring your hair is worse than killing your daughter? No offense intended. This is an abstract discussion about an issue of jurisprudence.

The answers you all provided deal with ethics and that's all fine and dandy but I was talking from a point of view of jurisprudence, law and sources of authority. The panj pyare argument doesn't make sense because it is highly subjective. We all know the anecdote of the guy who was told by the panj pyare of the Bhai Randhir Singh jatha to stop eating meat. Later on the Nihang panj pyare came along and ordered him to eat meat. Two set of panj pyare gave two different verdicts to the same person. I am asking a simple question of jurisprudence.

No need to expose me you all know who I am. You don't answer amardeep's or my questions. I asked a very simple question.to which you don't seem to able to reply. I did not talk about ethics. We all know that someone who would kill his father would go to hell and is deemed a sinner by the Guru. Fine we all know that. Doesn't take a Nobel Prize to know that. I am talking about law, jurisprudence and organisation and where authority is derived from. One set of panj pyare may say one thing and anothe rset another thing. I am asking for textual evidence.Where does it state in the rahit maryada that a fault other than the bajjar kurahit could get one kicked out of the Panth? It's a simple question and I think it deserves a reply. Who I am (you all know who I am btw) does not matter here. Answer the question if you please and stop avoiding the issue by accusing me of this and that. Why is it that you don't accuse amardeep? After all he is the one who started the thread...

Again I am not talking about ethics. I am talking practical codes and laws. Please provide quote from rahit maryada.

We are talking about rahit maryada not ethics. The SGPC president Jagir Kaur murdered her own pregnant daughter and she still is part of the Khalsa Panth. She has not committed any of the bajjar kurahit. So please provide me textual evidence from the rahitname that says that a thief or murderer could be excluded from the Panth. It's not a difficult question.

Matheen on which grounds do you claim they are not part of the Khalsa if they haven't broken any bajjar kurahit? Please provide reference from rahit maryada.

I am asking a simple question. So does amardeep. what I am or who I am is of no importance. It's a simple question. If you guys can't answer to it then there is a problem...

Gurbani does not give rules for the khalsa. I am asking per the codes used by the Panth. Is an amritdhari who killed his father still part of the khalsa as long as he doesn't commit the bajjar kurahits? Why is it so difficult to answer such a question. It's not like this situation hasn't happened before.

doesn't answer my question. Common sense is very subjective and depends on culture and society. Common sense among Aztecs and Mayas meant that human sacrifices were ok. Common sense among Romans made slavery and gladiator fights normal. Common sense cannot be used when it comes to divine laws because it is not universally valid. Either the codes are complete or they're not. So I am still waiting for an answer...

Is an amritdhari Sikh who has murdered his father excluded from the Panth? If yes provide section in the rahit maryada to prove it. Thank you.

So... technically if you eat a kebab you're a manmukh but if you kill your father you can still be khalsa?

So... technically if you eat a kebab you're a manmukh but if you kill your father you can still be khalsa?

It's ok I understand veer ji. Just don't give him too much importance

You are so immature Mehtab Veer Ji. Sorry Veer Ji just had to say it.

I fail to understand, the thread is named "for my Iranian lovers" and the article talks about Saudi Arabia. I don't understand. They're not the same country.

Tonyhp32: Ahmadinejab is Iranian. Iranians are not Arabs. Don't many Sikhs believe that Guru Gobind Singh Ji will come back? After confiscating their land and ethnically cleansing Palestinian villages. Iraeli Arabs actually have limited rights. They are not allowed to enter the army. Most orthodox Jews were against the creation of Israel. If you read "The Chosen" by Chaim Potok you'll realise that.It's not only Neturei Karta who are against Israel as a Jewish state. Other orthodox families such as Satmar are against Zionism.

Veer Ji, nothing could be further from the truth. My mum and dad both speak Farsi and it is very clear that: 1. Ahmadinejad never called for Israel to wiped out. Rather that the political entity called Israel should be part of history. What he means, and he explained this many times is that the zionist regime should be replaced by a government that represents all communities not just Jews. 2. He did organise a conference and Jewish orthodox rabbis participated in it and prayed for president Ahmadinejad's success. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GsdC_ZboeE No country is ideal veer ji but there are lies and there are facts. Maybe you should have a look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-m73iaP-bE&NR=1 Not all Americans support Bush!

Sorry Veer Ji you don't make sense. I just watched a documentary about Abu Ghraib and to be honest, what America does in Iraq is a shame and it went there to liberate Iraqis. Is this liberation? Raping innocent women and even young girls? Forcing men to sodomize each other? This is what America does when it liberates people. I don't want to ask what they'll do if they decide to attack an enemy. I pray they never attack Iran.

Well keeping your joora damages it too. The number of Singhs who grow bold before 30 is quite astonishing.

I asked my father who is very knowledgeable. He told me the tying the beard tradition as nothing to do with Westernisation but came out of a necessity. In battle when the Singhs would fire a matchlock their beard often caught fire hence the need to tie your dhara. Nothing wrong with it.

Sorry but if one should keep dhara open then why not kesh as well on the head? I am just confused. Why tie one and not the other?

Sorry, but with all due respect to you all Veer Jis:I am not impressed. Is this ow the Khalsa behaves?