Sword of Tabriz

No Mehtab it's you insinuating that I don't have a job that is bitchy. What proof is a tuk that says gurbani comes from God? You argument is: Gurbanis unchanged because gurbani says so! Tautology isn't really convincing. Rather present me some manuscriptological evidence, textual study etc Gurbani is REPLETE with intertextual influences from other sacred literatures. Sure God could be more original for his new revelation... Sikh answers go have ishnan for you have disobeyed by talking with a manmukh like me. YOu talk of corss references? You and I know thet Santokh Singh's account is corroborated by other sources.

You guys should seriously start reading at least Mann's "Making of the Sikh scripture" and Pashaura Singh's work before making grandiloquent statements about the "unchanged word of God". Spiderman you seem to have a fondness to talk about my wife in public. What I find interesting is that never at any point do I use personal information about any of you. I just ask plain simple questions. But you seem to think that it is ok to divulge private information, violate privacy and talk about someone's wife in public. I am really admirative, humbled by your oh so saintly behaviour...

Oral tradition is by definition not homogenous so there is no need to revise this point. Had I commited a mistake it would have been noted by the academics (who remain anonymous when reviewing) that have reviewed and corrected my paper before publication.

Unchanged word of God? Where is Baba Nanak's own pothi? You don't know Guru Amardas" pothi? Well we know but you refuse to accept it Guru Arjan's bir you seem to still have it but Guru Gobind Singh added Guru Tegh Bahadur's compositions. But for you that's unchanged... I have answered your points Sikh Answers but you somehow seem to chose the way of inconsistency. On one hand your people quote Kavi Santokh Singh to support your views on Ragmala and suddenly when it comes to the Goindval Pothis he's wrong? That's what I call reliability indeed. Let me guess Santokh Singh was also part of the anti-Sikh Rss-Bahman-Sullah conspiracy against Sikhi? Yeah it must be that for sure...

The text about Mir Mahdi in Dasam Granth says that he will kill Kalki Avatar and that he will die through the bite on ant. In the tradition of Ahl ul Bayt (as) this isn't the case. He will indeed kill the Dajjal (anti-Christ) and will be martyred, assassinated by a woman with moustache (ADMIN CUT- THIS IS YOUR LAST WARNING STOP ATTACKING INNOCENT BIBIYAS WHO DECIDED TO BREAK SHACKLES OF YOUR WESTERN SOCEITY AND APPEAR THE WAY THEY WANT.). Also Mir is not a title used with Imam e Zaman (ajtf). So no they are not the same.

The text about Mir Mahdi in Dasam Granth says that he will kill Kalki Avatar and that he will die through the bite on ant. In the tradition of Ahl ul Bayt (as) this isn't the case. He will indeed kill the Dajjal (anti-Christ) and will be martyred, assassinated by a woman with moustache (lol maybe an AKJ bibi). Also Mir is not a title used with Imam e Zaman (ajtf). So no they are not the same.

Sikhi is the word of God? I am sure you're talking about gurbani right? The writings of the Sikh masters sure contain great mystical poetry like that of Rumi and there are many works that are really beautiful and inspiring. But to say this is God's very word and revelation after so many changes in the text. To be honest I really doubt so. Not just in gurbani but also in the rahit.

Sikhi is the word of God? I am sure you're talking about gurbani right? The writings of the Sikh masters sure contain great mystical poetry like that of Rumi and there are many works that are really beautiful and inspiring. But to say this is God's very word and revelation after so many changes in the text. To be honest I really doubt so. Not just in gurbani but also in the rahit.

This is oral tradition among certain Nihangs I have come across in India and the UK. Niddar Singh could expand more on it. As you seem to have no problems divulgating my name (so much for internet privacy: but then again you're above the law right), could I ask all those who have used my name to declaim their identity?

This is oral tradition among certain Nihangs I have come across in India and the UK. Niddar Singh could expand more on it.

The two issues you raised have been addressed by Mann already. You are not adding any new information. If you refuse to read Mann at least admit it.

Well I have a job too ( a well paid one on top) so what's your problem mehtab? Can't find a reply and hence resort to bitchy attacks?

I haven't used personal attacks.

I have the book at hand don't worry Tony32hp. I gave the answers to your questions but all you seem to do is: - discredit Mann's book because it's published by Harvard and not some backyard Sikh publisher - when I tell you about Santokh Singh you refuse it because it's not 100% authentic : which percentage exactly? I'd love to know - resort to meaningless posts about Sunnism - use little bitchy remarks using personal information about myself - you have no material proof that the pothis were created by a rival sect - you blatantly ignore the elementary concept of of researching history i.e. the first sources are authoritatitve. And it is amazing that it is only in the 20th century that you people start doubting your original sources from which you pick and chose on ideological basis. wonderful scholarship indeed! You are indeed a god in terms of debating. Hail oh tony32hp!

Well why don't you read Mann's book? All the asnwers to your questions are in there? Or does the price discourage you? Not your 2£ gurdwara bookstall publication hey? I don't pick and chose from Islam. The views I present are well established views in Shi'a Islam and there is nothing recent about it. If you chose to rely on Sunni hadiths for your views on Islam, that's your choice.

Maha Kharag Singh, you're in the wrong movie. The Goindval Pothis have nothing to do with Prithi Chand. Go to sleep. As for the Prophet (pbuh) he wasn't illiterate. He was "ummi" which means unschooled. But he could read and write as is clearly shown by the fact that he asked for a pen on his death bed to write his will. All Prophets and Imams are unschooled as a proof of their infallibale knowledge. The Bible confirms this in the case of Jesus.In clear they never went to school. Sikh Answers, it isn't my explanation it's Kavi Santolh Singh's who you people used profusely to back your points on Ragmala. Suddenly he's no good any longer? Kam1825, I am happy that you think like me that the Saudi government is made up by harami wahabi kuffar. Just a shame they have been put into power by your country. Tony32hp, how does a truncated Qur'an, truncated Gospel or truncated Bhagavadgita save your case with the changes with mulmantar? Ad hominem attacks against me and my work at SOAS doesn't change anything either. Yes there are 7 variants of Mulmantar in the Pothis which to me is even more worrying regarding your claims to gurbani being "unchanged". I find your theories about conspiracy in the world of Sikh studies fascinating. Alot of people in that field are (unlike me) devout Sikhs who are ready to take on the challenge of scientific scrutiny. When confronted with the change of mulmantar they don't get stuck in a dogmatic position like you and your buddies. If you and Sikh answers are so smart why don't you guys undertake to get a properly recognized university training in the field of Indology? Or are you guys too lazy to learn Sanskrit, Braj and Farsi? The very reason OUP or HUP exist is so we academics can rely on academically reliable boosk revised by our peers, something that Singh Brothers don't have. Singh Brothers are not a recognised academic publishing house and their books represent ONE specific point of view. OUP also exist in India and Pakistan. I am sure that if BS Dhillon's book were of any academic worth it would have been published there or by any recognised academic publisher. I have pointed out to the serious shortcomings of his work. But you seem to be ok with low quality work as long as it fits your view of the world. The very fact that you have no problem with BS Dhillon not discussing Mann's work in his literature review is proof enough that you have no idea of how academia really works. It isn't just Mann that accepts the pothis as authentic and you seriously do need to check your methodology regarding history. The very puratan sources you people quote for your "debates" say what I say about the pothis. Strange how you pick and chose from your ancient literature... The point still remains: gurbani "unchanged" I beg to differ!

This going to be a long reply Matheen and Xylitol, you seem to have either misunderstood me or have a poor mastery of the English language. What I am questioning is your claim that gurbani is unchanged, not that it may (or may not) come from God. So your posting two shabads where Baba Nanak says he receives his inspiration is all fine and dandy but this isn't the topic. Rather the topic is : has gurbani changed? Sikh Answers (I take it that "answers" here is a verb not a noun) discusses the issue of Giani Gurdit Singh's work but doesn't touch a word on that of Prf Gurinder Singh Mann who is to date the best specialist on the pothis. He then goes on to conclude that the pothis have many problems. Actually the pothis don't have a problem. It is YOU who has a problem connecting the Goindval Pothis with the Kartarpuri bir because you feel that intertextuality threatens your theological position. No scholar not even Prof Mann claims that the Kartarpuri bir is a rip off. Rather what is interesting is the way Guru Arjan proceeded in consulting manuscripts that contained hymns. Sikh answers says it's a problem that the Goindval Pothis don't contain Japuji sahib. 1. It's a problem because the granth he believes in contains it. Otherwise it's just a difference in text. 2. The fact that it isn't contained in two of the four pothis doesn't mean it is a problem. I am sure Sikh answers if familiar with puratan Sikh literature. Bhai Kavi Santokh Singh says in his Suraj Prakash Granth that Guru Amardas entrusted the Goindval Pothis to Baba Mohan Singh on purpose so that Baba Mohan could rectify the wrong of not having appeared at the succession ceremony of Guru Ramdas. By lending the pothis to Guru Arjan , Baba Mohan redeamed himself of his sin.This would also explain why the Ghulam Sadasevak hymns have been crossed (probably in a bad mood) and why Guru Arjan's first envoy to Baba Mohan went back empty handed and that Baba Mohan only accepted to hand over the pothis to Guru Arjan in person. As you see Sikh answers here is your answer... And yes the Goindval pothis discussed in Mann's work are THE Goindval Pothis. Not some other manuscript. (btw Kavi Santokh Singh is the person you people love to quote about Ragmala) Maha Kharag Singh I wonder who is the the haram khor: the man who works honestly and eats food that he paid for, or the Sikh who eats langar in a gurdwara that receives money from the National lottery fund? No the Goindval Pothis are not the Guru Harsahai Pothis. Actually the original Damdami bir has been taken away to Afghanistan during the Afghan invasion. So the original is not available. Yes Guru Gobind Singh dictated (so your tradition says) the entire Kartarpuri Bir AND ADDED to it his father's bani. As for the Quran it was written down already during the life time of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) by his household. Other people kept parts of it on animal parchment or palm leaves. Unchanged? N3O, the correct spelling is Bahadur NOT bahudar. I don't see how your post is a reply to my question. Ad hominem attacks are not a reply. Spiderman, try to learn English or stick to spinning. My question remains. If gurbani is "unchanged" why is the mulmantar different.

Matheen yes all sampradayas believe the Adi Granth to be authoritative (authenticity is another question). As for the Goindval pothis they say that Guru Arjan consulted the pothis. And yes I have seen the pothis myself.

Actually I do. Jatts are an Indo-Scythian tribe. There is no doubt that some Persiand or Afghan blood must exist in Panjabi people's veins do to marriages or less fortunate occasions (armies...). It is also interesting to know that Jatts also mixed with other nations of the early Islamic empire. Jatt regiments called Zut were employed in the invasion of Sindh and many were present in modern day Iraq. Some Arab tribes also have Jatt blood in them.

DSG wrote: Nice to see that you have an opinion and that you are 1. not sure of what you do 2. lack guidance and hence rely on your own effort to guess what God wants. You make the point about we having to try to clean ourselves. But Japuji Sahib clearly states that cleaning yourself won't result in anything you follow the Hukam and are in God's acceptance (ridha- razai). Human efforts are nothing without correct guidance. But I appreciate the fact that you admitted to your lack of guidance. If only Waheguru knows and we don't then he is misguiding humanity...and then he's not God for God is just and fair and guides humanity...

Xylitol wrote: I have no doubt he was a Muslim saint. I just have doubts about your pretentions about gurbani being the "unchanged word of God" Sikhs are pretty good at destroying their own community and betraying their own Gurus as they have proved it times and times again. Don't blame others if your ship is sinking! Mattheen wrote: Actually they have bothered. Tara Singh Narotam talks about them and so do did Kavi Santokh Singh and Giani Gian Singh. Has it ever occurred to you that there are many people who research Sikhism academically without being Sikhs? Anyways: none of you has replied to the question about the changes in the mulmantar. Any intelligent reply apart from " you're an ennemy of the Panth"!

What you really want to know is if they are more "aryan" than the rest of India? lol Ahnenkunde Sikh style. Too bad SS scientists didn't go to Panjab to measure people's skulls to prove once and for all that Panjabis are true Aryans! (I am being ironic by the way )

Sikh Answers wrote: Is that all you could come up with? It so happens that I talked to Prof Pritam Singh about the Pothis and although he (like me) doesn't like Prof Mann, he admitted that Gurinder Singh Mann spent more time than anyone else on these pothis studying and analyzing them. As for the Ghulam Sadasevak argument it is isn't circular. It's based on the very simple reading of this clear sentence: gulam mast taida sada Jeth Chand: your intoxicated servant Jeth Chand (Guru Ramdas). If this were a book written by Baba Mohan why on earth would he have put Guru Ramdas' name in there? It doesn't make sense as he is supposed to have been Baba Mohan's rival. The only reason why I quoted Giani Gurdit Singh was to show that there are well established scholars within the Sikh community endorsed by the SGPC who consider the Pothis authentic. If these pothis existed to create doubts about the Guruship of Guru Arjan, the 5th Guru WHY ON EARTH IS THERE A M5 HYMN in the Goindval Pothis? As for Prof Sahib Singh's work on the Goindval Pothis, Prof Mann has debunked his arguments. The argument of puratan history makes no sense as you and your tapobani brothers pick and chose from puratan Sikh history when it is convenient for you. When puratan historians say that Guru Har Rai had eight wives you refuse to believe it and invent the usual conspiracy argument. And you really believe I should take your claim of using puratan Sikh history seriously? The goindval pothis surely are an historical document and like any good historian you take the first source as authoritative and the latter ones as less authoritative unless proven otherwise. The fact that other Sikh historical sources do not mention Guru Ramdas' penname doesn't invalidate the argument of the Goindval Pothis. No mughal source mentions 1699 amrit sanchar does it mean you people lie? Oh now you even doubt they existed? lol If that isn't pure revisionism. "Vee have problem wiith Goindval pothas! Vat vee do? -Simpel joo deny they exist bass!" The best way...the pindoo way!

Dear tony32hp: 1. I am well aware of the doctrine of bada' in certain schools of Islam. Pointing out at the concept of bada' in Islam is not an explanation for changes in Sikh scripture. First of all the the concept of bada' doesn't apply to the revealed verses of the Qur'an but to the injunction of changing the qiblah. As for tahrif of the Qur'an even those schools that say that the present Qur'an is truncated agree that it's content is nevertheless authentic. So your reply is misplaced to say the least. 2. Yes I have read B.S. Dhillon's book. I am a little surprised that this book hasn't been published by a more reputed academic publisher. This is probably a result of a conspiracy against the Sikh nation I suppose. What great academic publisher would refuse a book full of typos, spelling mistakes and ideological presumtionsA great piece of scholarship? I beg to differ. For the following reasons: 1. B S Dhillon spends a great deal of time expounding the differences between the Katarpuri Bir and the Goindval Pothis. This had already been done in far greater detail by Prof Gurinder Singh Mann. He dwells on details that have been mentioned by Prof Gurinder Singh Mann. As such he doesn't present anything new to the body of knowledge about the Goindval Pothis. Such a shame that Oxford or Harvard University press haven't published BS Dhillon's book, indeed! 2. There is no doubt that there are differences in arrangement, spellings etc but BS Dhillon's ideological predispositions make him interpret these differences as signs of heterodoxy which is a highly subjective interpretation. Here a few examples: page 105: "6.5. Significantly, authorship of some hymns has been wrongly entered." He goes on to explain that they are "not in consonance with the Adi Granth". How is that proof that they have been "wrongly" attributed? Different does not equate wrong especially when one knows that the Goindval Pothis precede the Kartapuri Bir. The author considers difference as a self evident proof that the Goindval pothis are "wrong". pages 96-98: BS Dhillon fails to discuss Prof Gurinder Singh Mann's work on the Goindval Pothis when it is in fact the single most important book written on the subject. Had this been part of a doctoral student's upgrade from MPhil to PhD ,he/she would have been failed. This is quite serious academically speaking and would be interpreted as intellectual dishonesty by an examinator. page 112 He addresses the issue of missing hymns in an inductive reasoning: There are hymns that are present in the Adi Granth yet missing from the Goindval Pothis. Given the fact that the Kartarpuri Bir is more recent than the Goindval Pothis the issue of missing hymns is invalid. The opposite position makes much sense i.e. hymns from the Goindval Pothis missing in the Kartarpuri Bir. p117 He argues that the signature "gulam mast taida Jeth Chand" must be spurious because he argues that Guru Ramdas was not known as Gulam Mast and that several scholars have not seen the signature before. He argues that Gulam Mast is Baba Mohan. Indeed Gulam Mast does also use the title Nanak in the hymns attributed to him and it would be tempting to attribute those hymns to Baba Mohan would claimed to be Guru. Then why would Baba Mohan write :"gulam mast taida Jeth Chand", Jeth Chand was Guru Ramdas his rival. It doesn't make sense! Also BS Dhillon’s claim that Guru Ramdas was not known under that name is false. Giani Gurdit Singh in 1991 in his Itihas Sri Guru Granth Sahib (published by the SGPC) clearly states and proves that gulam mast is Guru Ramdas’ penname before he became Guru. p 132 He brushes away the issue of the M5 hymn in the Goindval pothis as a proof that the Goindval pothis are not older. According to him this hymn proves that the Pothis are not older than the Kartarpuri Bir. He fails to give a reply to Prof Gurinder Singh Mann's discussion of the issue (see pages 21-22 of his book). BS Dhillon’s “proof†is based on the fact that he considers that the handwriting of that hymn is that of the primary scholar. This is clearly disproved when one sees the Pothis oneself. There is a very clear difference in handwriting . I have been fortunate to see it for myself in August 2000. Also BS Dhilon claims that the Goindval Pothis are spurious and that Baba Mohan claimed guruship for himself. If so why would there be a M5 hymn in the Pothis and why would the Jeth Chand signature be there? I don't like Prof Mann as a person but I have to admit that he is a good scholar. Yeah...I am really impressed. Now after contemplating the beautiful scholarship of BS Dhillon could we go back to the subject i.e. the claim that Sikh scriptures are the "unchanged word of God". thank you

Maha Kharag Singh: Xylitol wrote: Unchanging word of God? I beg to differ. The very foundation of Sikhism lies in the the mulmantar which according to the standardized version of Sikh scripture today reads: ik-omkar satinamu karta purakhu nirbhau nirvair akal murati ajuni saibham gurprasadi / japu / adi sachu jugadi sachu hai bhi sachu nanak hosi bhi sachu / This version relies on the Damdami and Kartarpuri Birs. What the majority of uneducated Sikh seems to forget is the existence of the Goindval Pothis whose authorship is attributed to Guru Amardas. Famous sikh historical texts such as Giani Gian Singh's Tvarikh Guru Khalsa,Kavi Santokh Singh's Sri Gur PratapSuraj Granth and Sikhan di Bhagatmala all agree that these pothis were written under Guru Amardas AND that Guru Arjan consulted these pothis before composing the Kartapuri Bir. There is no doubt as to the authenticity of these pothis and Professor Gurinder Singh Mann from the University of California (Santa Barbara) has thoroughly studied them. (see his two books: "The Goindval Pothis" (Harvard University Press) and "The Making of Sikh Scripture" (Oxford University Press). Having analyzed the manuscripts themselves he has come to the conclusion that these pothis are indeed authentic. Even though most of the content of the Kartapuri Bir and the Goindval Pothis is the same there are also great differences that cannotbe attributed to Baba Mohan. - differences in spelling - missing hymns And most importantly the mulmantar. The mulmantar in the Goindval pothis reads as follows: ik-omkar satiguru parsadi sachunamu kartaru nirbhau nirikar akal murati ajuni sambhau // The Goindval Pothis are the earliest extant Sikh scriptures to this day. If gurbani is really the "unchanging word of God" as some people claim then how do these people explain these differences? Did God change his mind about the mul mantar? Did the Gurus disagree among each other as to the wording of the mulmantar? If yes why? Aren'ts they supposed to be the same Nanak? Enjoy