chatanga1

The same book is £25 from amazon Uk https://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/8189487892/ref=nosim/booksprice-21 Although I was a good boy and went to Panjab to buy it, where it cost some 3 or 4 pounds I think. If you want to buy books best place is Amritsar, Panjab for the range and price. So many people go to Darbar Sahib when they go Panjab but never think of visiting the book stores across the road.

Howdy brother and as you may have guessed I don't post too much these days, as I'm very busy with work and also a little lazy lol. This book is ok-ish, I bought it when it came out but it isn't great but not poor either. One of the most outstanding books I've read on partition is "The Greatest Day" and it's very detailed and a long read but worth it for the info. An excellent book if you can get it. Wish it would get a reprint as the original print are very hard to find, unless you're paying crazy prices. The info in this book is amazing though. Haven't read it.

I was talking to an Iranian friend and she was telling me about an Iranian celebration called "Charshanbe Soori." I looked this up and the original story is featured in Firdausi's Shahnamah. It's identical to the root story of Sri CharitroPakhyan Granth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siyâvash Iranian knights discover a beautiful young woman while on a hunting trip, a favourite pastime of the army hierarchy. They cannot decide on who should possess her for his own pleasure, and a major dispute erupts between them. Finally, they decide to take her to the Shah, Kay Kāvus, for his judgement, but the Shah decides to keep her as his own concubine and Siyâvash is the result of their union. However, as Siyâvash's mother is not an aristocrat, the Shah decides to send him to Rostam, the ultimate hero of Iranian mythology, for training in the military arts. Rostam instructs the young Siyâvash in the arts of riding, archery, hunting, conduct and speaking the truth, these being the fundamentals in the Acheamenian system of education - as reflected in the Shahnameh on several occasions. After several years of instruction, Siavash asks Rostam's permission to return to Kay Kāvus's Court, so that he may prove his worth as a young prince. At first, Siavash is well received at Court. The ladies swoon over his youthful good looks, while the men are impressed by his mastery of the arts. The Shah even appoints him Ruler of Ctesiphon, the ancient capital of the Parthians (now situated near Baghdad). The Queen, Sudabeh, develops an instantaneous, and all-consuming sexual desire for the young prince, and starts a series of plans to entice him to enter her chambers. She praises Siavash in front of the Court, and invites him to "visit his sisters," and become better acquainted with them. Siavash is not impressed with this proposal and suspects an ulterior motive. The Shah, well-aware of his own queen's connections (she is the daughter of the Shah of Hamavaran) insists that Siavash listen to his "mother" and visit his sisters. In her chambers, the Queen organises a magnificent reception for Siavash . He is seated on a throne, expensive perfumes are lavished upon the chamber, and the ladies sing and dance for his pleasure. The Shah decides that Siavash should marry one of the ladies, and orders him to choose one immediately, but Siavash refuses to do so, sensing his father's plans for a political union under the guise of marriage. The Queen can no longer control her desire for Siavash. She proposes to have her husband, the Shah of Iran, murdered so that she and Siavash can rule together, but he absolutely refuses to have anything to do with her. Queen Sudabeh realises that Siavash might reveal her plans to her husband, resulting in her certain death. Siyavash is Pulled from His Bed and Killed[1] She orders one of the witches in her service to find 2 aborted foetuses and place them in a dish. She then runs to the Shah, ripping her robes, screaming, wailing, and crying. The Shah is deeply disturbed by the sight of his wife, bloodied and in tatters. The Queen accuses Siavash of raping her. She provides the aborted foetuses as evidence of his violence towards a "pregnant" Queen. The Shah is devastated by the news, but listens to Siavash's plea of innocence. He first smells Siavash's robes and finds no sign of seduction or perfume upon them. Then he smells the robes of the Queen and finds them laced with the most exquisite of perfumes: a sure sign of seduction. Nevertheless, he imprisons Siavash, and orders that hundreds of beasts of burden be used to bring fire wood. A gigantic mountain of fire is set alight in front of the Palace, and Siavash is ordered to ride through the blaze. If he is innocent, he will emerge unscathed, but if guilty, he will surely perish. Siavash, armed as a cataphract, covered in (sacred, but highly inflammable) camphor and wearing a white cape, the symbol of innocence, mounts his faithful black steed and charges straight into the vast pyre. The Court holds its breath, as he disappears among the flames, but shortly afterward, the white knight and his valiant black war horse emerge from the fire unscathed and victorious. Kay Kavus, the Shah, orders the immediate execution of the Queen for bringing shame on his name and kingdom. Wise and sober as ever, Siavash begs for clemency. He knows that the Shah loves his wife and will soon regret her passing. Not long after, the fickle Shah might even accuse Siavash of orchestrating the whole fiasco. The Shah is reminded of the Queen's royal connections, and the importance of his treaty with the Shah of Hamavaran. He relents, forgives his wife, and peace is temporarily restored to life at court. Siyâvash and Afrasiab Siyavash faces Afrasiyab across the Jihun River,[2] from Master of the Jainesque Shahnama, 15th century, Sultanate India. The second part of the Epic of Siavash is dedicated to his separation from his homeland, his unjust treatment at the hands of his own father, Kay Kavus, and his ultimate execution. Afrasiab, the tyrannical ruler of Turan, a mythical land north of Iran, declares war on the Iranians again. Kay Kavus decides to make an example of Afrasiab's allies in the City of Balkh, and plans to invade it, but is dissuaded from personally attending the battle field by Rostam, the ultimate hero of the Shahnameh. Siavash volunteers for duty, and is immediately sent towards Balkh, and certain war. On the Turanian side, Garsivaz, the ruler of the Bulgars joins forces with the Tatars under the command of Barman. The intense battle results in a crushing defeat for the Turanians who are captured by Siyâvash. Disturbed by ill-omens in his sleep, Afrasiab dreams of his own defeat, and upon hearing the news from Balkh, sends horses, armour, and swords, suing for peace. Garsivaz represents Afrasiab at the peace talks. Siavash agrees to keep one hundred hostages and the return of lands taken from Iran by the Turanians in return for peace. The cities of Samarkand, Bukhara, Haj, and the Punjab are returned to Iranian rule while the hostages are taken into custody by Siavash. The Iranian Shah is disgusted with Siavash's behaviour, because he had hoped that Afrasiab would be killed in battle. He writes a letter to Siavash at the height of his fury, and orders him to return home, while assigning Toos as the new commander of the Iranian forces. He also demands the transfer of the hostages for execution. The letter goes against everything Siavash had been taught to do by Rostam. Breaking a peace treaty, declaring war, and murdering hostages all sicken him. Siavash knows that he is incapable of these tyrannical acts requested by the Shah, and sees no option but to abandon his homeland and seek refuge in Turan. Siyâvash in Turan The blood-red flowers of Fritillaria imperialis are said, in Iranian folklore, to bow their heads and weep for the blameless and martyred Siyâvash and this may be the identity of the plant Khune Asyavushan ('the blood of Siyâvash') Despite exile, Siavash is determined to find a new life for himself in the land of Turan. Afrasiab, the Turanian Emperor receives him warmly, and Peeran, the Grand Vizier, provides him with solace in his first few days in a foreign land. Eventually, Siavash falls in love with and marries Ferigees ("Curly Locks"), the Emperor's daughter, thereby sealing his new attachment to life at the Turanian Court. Delighted with the marriage, Afrasiab bestows the county of Khotan (now in Xinjiang, China) onto the bride and groom. Siavash sets about creating a new city, called Siavashgird, or "the round city of Siavash", and Gong ("Giant") Castle. However, Siavash's sudden rise to favour at the Turanian court causes much jealousy amongst certain of the knights and dignitaries, who wonder why the Emperor's daughter had been given to the prince of Iran, a foreigner and their sworn enemy. Garsivaz, foremost among the disgruntled few, sends secret messages to Afrasiab, proclaiming Siavash "a traitor," in view of his "letters" that had been sent to his father in Iran, Shah Kay Kavus. He also convinces Siyâvash that Afrasiab is plotting against him and will soon invade Khotan to reclaim the land bestowed upon him. Soon, the impetuous and egotistical Turanian Emperor mobilises against Siavash, and defeats his small army. However, Siavash manages to help his wife, Ferigees to escape with Peeran, who ensures that Ferigees reaches Iran, where her son, Kay Khosrow will grow to become a wise Shah who eventually restores order. Siavash is dragged before Afrasiab, who orders his execution by beheading. Peeran implores the Emperor not to commit the horrendous mistake of killing the innocent: "Do not make thyself a flag upon this Earth." The hot-headed Afrasiab ignores the warning and the execution is carried out swiftly. As Siyâvash's blood reaches the ground, a plant grows upon the same spot and is later named "Khune Asyavushan," or the "blood of Siavash." This line in the epic ties the story to the early links between the name "Siavash," and his role as the spirit of vegetative growth. The news of his execution causes uproar in Iran, and, to this day, is still commemorated in Shiraz as the day of Savušun. His tragic death, as recounted in the Shahnameh has inspired hundreds of poems, essays, songs and stories in Iranian literature, among them Simin Dânešvar's groundbreaking novel Savušun, which has the distinction of being the first novel to be written in Persian by a female author. Siyâvaš in Central Asian Zoroastrianism Before the Islamization of Central Asia, the inhabitants of both Khwarazm and Sogdia performed sacrifices and other rituals dedicated to Siyâvaš. According to the historian Tolstov, "Siyavash was also venerated as the Central Asian god of dying and reviving vegetation."[3]

Ghaghriwalas pet boy, Harinder of the Nirvair Khalsa Jatha

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Yes, the conduct of Harnam Singh Dhumma gets frequently linked to Damdami Taksal as a group, and so you have to ask yourself whether you spew hate against the Taksal. Thanks for posting the video and confirming that you had lied. Dhumma didn't say what you claimed he had. We Sikhs go to our Guru. I don't know any Sikhs who go to Pandit Ji and ask him for straight path. You are also too busy promoting wrong meanings of Gurbani and saying that kudrat is God, and there is no need for naam simran. So you are no better from any dera. There is always power in naam simran and reading Gurbani. But if you don't want to do it, why discourage others? The thing is that you are not going to be able to change them with the attitude you have, which is very typical of "dhunda/panthpreet/karminder/ghaghriwala" supporters. If you bothered to read Sikh history you would understand. Really? I have had 2 face to face meetings with the spirit world that left me in no confusion that the spirit world exists. But I won't, and don't force my beliefs on you. The waram bharam that you don't expect from hindus just shows us all here how little you know about waram bharams. The further divide is created by people like YOU. All of the Sikh samprdais and Singh Sabhas, have largely maintained that Sikh historical texts are not free from error, and that we should glean that information from them that fits in with Sikh history and Gurmat. Not outrightly reject the whole text. But people like kala afghana and you want to erase the whole text so that we learn NOTHING. That's entirely up to you, but don't force your stupidity on the rest of us. You already have negative thoughts about GP6. You have read kala afghanas book which was CREATED for this purpose alone. To find some content that doesn't sit well and then try and get the whole book condemned. I have read parts of it, and cannot find anything onjectionable so why don't you do the same and we can discuss it. That is exactly why! No sane Sikh wants to critique or analyse it. These books are not for us to critique but to learn from, and to take that learning that sits well with us. It could be 1 page or 100 pages. Yeah, no. It's a plainly hindu-phobic book. "it is upto you" ??? Is it upto you to wear a turban and keep 5 K's or is it the Guru 's hukam? There is only one view of Dasam Granth, and that is the view that the Sikh Panth has held from 1696. These debates are nothing but ego-fueled activities.

Great share Dal. Any further info on which region of Sikhs this was addressed to ? The moghals had been using forms of canon and such, since Babur. I'm still not convinced yet that guns had become a norm by that time though. I haven't heard many instances in Sri Gur Panth Parkash of Sikhs using guns, but it would be interesting to see where and what time Bhai Ratta Singh Bhangu does mention them. What we call kirpan was a 3 ft sword pre-British times. The British tried to disarm the Sikhs after 1849, and stopped them carrying swords, and instead limited this to a smaller dagger, which then became known as a kirpan.

I was thinking about bows and arrows, but wasn't sure if all Sikhs kept them, but do you think at that time there would have been enough guns for all the fauj to keep? I'm thinking at Guru Sahib's time guns were still something of a novelty and we really don't hear of widespread use of guns until Maharaja Ranjit Singh's times, almost a century later.

Kard is basically what we call kirpan today, and kirpan used to be what we call talwar today.

Can't remember where but the 5 shastars I have heard/read of are, Kard, Kirpan, khanjar, chakar and tabar. Anyone have any differing views?

I still pop in from time to time, just to check up on the malechh here more than anything. Have been doing a non-stop listening to Sri Gur panth Parkash katha for well over a year now. Listening to this katha, I think its a shame that katha of this granth is not done in all gurdwaras as it is extremely inspiring.

Just wanted to share this video. Please watch and give your views. I have a couple of things I want to share but I want to just research them first to make sure as it's been a long time since I read them.

Well given that I was never here to "debunk" it, I still feel the same about it. I have the book, and it forms part of a larger book detailing the input of the Mazhabi Sikhs in the wider Sikh Panth. It is still a valuable source of information as a granth by itself. However the book... You're right Dal. The book is written by Niranjab Singh Arifi, a Mazhabi Sikh himself who has at times vilified other castes. His whole other work in this book is just a inflammatory jibe at other castes and denigrating their service to the Panth at the expense of his own caste. I read the first chapter on Sri Gur Katha, which includes a translation, but the second chapter by Arifi is just horrendous.

Hold your horses a moment. You stated in an earlier post "Rituals and superstitions are not a part of Sikhi. Noone cares if theres a jug of water there or not and if someone does, theyre a fool." To which i asked you "how is this pithcer of water defined as a ritual or superstition?" You haven't answered the question unless your "Why would anyone care if theres water there or not? It doesn't matter. " qualifies as some sort of answer. This is just giving your opinion without you explaining why you have come to this conclusion. So I would like to ask again why you feel this is a ritual or superstition. Placing the water has no effect. It's the water that is itself affected. Who are these anti-Panthic forces you talk of? What about when the speakers are switched off during prayers ie Akhand Paath? How will it work having a tank full of water next to the speaker? I was told that one of reasons that during amrit sinchaar that paath is done directly over the bata of water is because water absorbs sound. A quick search on the net has shown that a scientist did indeed look at this and has found it does. How does this make someone gullible? There are some 13,000 villages in Panjab. Are you saying there are more than 13,000 ram rahim dera's in Panjab? I hope that any followers of ram rahim who are here, are here to learn about Gurmat, and see where their "guru" gets all his knowledge from. But why can't we Sikhs here make the same claim against followers of dhadhri wala? That is also supporting beadbi of SGGS.

Why is placing a pitcher of water by SGGS a ritual or a superstition?

I don't know what you brothers feel about this but I'm very angry myself. On the one hand we are getting a 10ft statue of a Sikh in Wolverhampton to commemorate the Sikhs soldiers of the World Wars. The same World Wars the Sikhs gave their lives for, whilst being slaves of the British. The same British that 1 year after WW1 shot down over a thousand mainly Sikh crowd in Jallianwala Bagh. The same British that took the crown lands of Maharajah Dalip Singh by deceit and handed them over to the muslims and hindus of Lahore and Delhi. Right now, when we need the help of the British Government, to get justice in Jagtar Singh Johal's case, the British govt are doing nothing but lip service. Compare this to the recent case of Roman Protasevic, who was arrested by the Belarus Govt. In the House of Commons, Matt Hancock has announced that Belarus airlines are now banned from UK, and has warned Belarus Govt about torturing Roman, and Prime Minister Boris has warned Belarus of the consequences of their actions. No fighting words for Jagtar though, even after 80,000 of us lay down our lives for these people.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-55265286 image copyrightWolverhampton Council image captionThe sculpture is due to be unveiled in Wednesfield on the 124th anniversary of the battle on 12 September 2021 The final design of a statue to 19th Century Sikh soldiers has been unveiled as the last stage of work begins. The 3m-high (10ft) sculpture, by artist Luke Perry, is due to be erected in Wednesfield, Wolverhampton, in September. The clay model will be painted in wax before being cast in bronze. It commemorates the Battle of Saragarhi. Although little-known, it is considered by some military historians as one of history's great last-stands. During the battle on 12 September 1897, 21 Sikhs died defending a British army post from 10,000 Afghan tribesmen. image copyrightWolverhampton Council image captionOnce complete, the statue will stand 10ft (3m) tall Sikhs make up almost 10% of Wolverhampton's population - almost 23,000 people - and it has been an ambition of councillor Bhupinder Gakhal to share the story for decades. He said he was "thrilled" by the "wonderful memorial" and hoped it would encourage others to learn more about Saragarhi. Latest news and updates from the West Midlands It is due to be unveiled in Well Lane, near the Guru Nanak Gurdwara, on 12 September 2021, the anniversary of the battle. Mr Perry has previously made a commemorative statue to honour the South Asian service personnel who fought for Britain during World War One. That sculpture has been displayed in neighbouring Smethwick since 2018. "With artworks like Saragarhi I want to create sculptures that are a visible marker of the under represented but vital, real people in our communities," Mr Perry said. "Because when you represent people you empower them."

This is something that should definitely be addressed.

The essay I read said "differences" but I think these were mainly scribal errors. I agree with this 100%. It doesn't bother me in the slightest that either is done, although I do read raagmala myself.

This line has been discussed a few times on this forum. Will try and locate a thread and add it here. Strict monogamy is not a core Sikh value. It never has been. Throughout the times, Sikh men did take more than one wife and there was never any issue over it. This change to monogamy happened when the British took over Panjab, and tried to enforce their marriage views on the populace. Sikhs and Hindus acquiesced whilst the Muslims didn't. I think Gyani Gyan Singh ji wrote that Guru Sahib married 4 wives who each brought a female attendent to the Guru's house as well. no bro. Don't know and possibly think there isn't one. The earliest source that talks about jhatka to my knowledge in Dhadi Nath Mal's Amarnama, where he details the Sikhs doing jhatka of Madho Das' animals in his ashram. Yes jhatka is done at Sri Patna Sahib.

The nitnem i use to help shudh ucharni is from Dal Panth and Giani Rann Singh says "ਤੁਐਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ" as well. It's ok to discuss sensitive topics as long as we do it with respect and have the strength to acknowledge that others may not feel the same. I personally read Raagmala but have no problems with any Sikh who doesn't. Brother, when the SGPC began the process of studying the saroops of SGGS to begin the standardisation, from which to print from, they found that between the saroops they studied there were 570 differences. They did this exercise in the 1930/40s and arrived at the one they use today. So since that decade long study into SGGS, they came to what we have as the standard printed version. Now these mistakes were spelling mistakes from scribes which got repeated and repeated as these older saroops were copied from and so on. The SGPC studied these differences and came up with a common census on how the word should be spelled. So today if you compare the standard printed version to older saroops you are bound to find differences.

Hey Bro, just a few words I'd like to add to this topic. If the RSS celebrate Hind-ki-Chadar Guru Tegh Bahadar Ji's shaheedi purb in the correct context, then it's good yes? (Mis)Quoting Gurbani has always been a major trademark of these Hindu organisations, and they will always claim that "hari/Ram/Thakur" etc are references to their gods. Our job is to counter that. To always stay active and one sep ahead. This same "Deh Shiva" was proof tht the Guru asked Shiv Ji for a boon according to a Sikh friend of mine. Let's start at home and educate those first. How did such an "opinion" become so "popularly spread" in the Panth? That's what you have to ask yourself. Maybe, just maybe because there is truth to it? The fact is that it wasn't just Guru Sahib who had more than one wife. Bhai Mani Singh aslo had 2 wives who gave birth to 11 children between them. These saakhis don't attack the character of the Guru in any way if they are understood properly. According to Sikh tradition, Guru HarGobind Sahib started jhatka outside Sri Akal Bunga after Guru Arjan Dev Ji's shaheedi. This practice was only stopped in 1940s by SGPC. The saakhi of Mai Bhago has been grossly distorted to claim that Mai Bhago was in Guru Sahib's presence all the time naked, when she wasn't. The first time she came to Guru Sahib's hazuri naked, Guru Sahib told her it wasn't right and told her to keep herself covered. But listening to cretins they push the story that Mai Bhago was always with Guru Sahib naked. The Devi Pooja story also finds itself in other texts as well but with differing stories. Maybe if you can locate a text or screen shot of the text we can look at it for ourselves here? And compare it with others? I also thought this at one time. This post was made in response to a post I made on Sikh sangat.com : "Kavi Bhai Santokh Singh Ji, was a poet indeed, but beyond that he was an immense vidhvaan of the Panth. He was a great scholar and theologian too, as is exemplified by his Japji Sahib translation in his Garab Ganjani Teeka. I would say Bhai Santokh Singh Ji also fits the mold of an historian. It was immense work and research he did compiling historical literature/records, recording oral accounts, visiting historical sites, and then analyzing all the information, scrutinizing it for accuracy, and compiling it all into the poetic masterpiece that is Suraj Parkash. He may even be the Panth's foremost historian!" This saakhi is found in Gurbilas Patshahi 10vi written by Kavi Koer Singh in 1741. This is most likely where Kavi Ji found this, but I'm with you on this one, I don't think there were 7 mahals. The texts from those times, all confirm the 3 marriages of Guru Sahib. I'm thinking that Kulbir Singh possibly thinks one, because he is afraid to answer to those who claim "equality" thinking a man should and could only have one wife. Yousee, it's very hard to explain multiple marriages without giving the impression that it was for adult purposes/wealth only etc. This is nonsense that has been disproved time and time again. There are 3 separate chikkas of all 3 mahals. How could the Sikhs just invent a chikka and raise a monument there with no-one questioning them? And another line which has been grossly distorted to try and prove something.

haha you saw the arrows fired! The thing is, look at the opening lines of our saviours post "Many people on this forum are very misguided..." and on another topic he is asking other members if they have read Gurbilas P6 to comment because he sees reading it for himself as a "waste" of time. Do you remember the last person who posted a topic here, and then wouldn't reveal the source, until I found it, and then reading it for myself, saw that the OP had given a very gross misinterpretation of it? That's the dangerous thing. My guy wants us to spoon feed him information, without verifying whether it correct or not.

Thanks for sharing that. It something that I've been thinking about recently seeing the situation of some relatives. May I ask, how did you start drinking, if it's not too intrusive?