drawrof

one thing I wanted to point, and this was meant to come at the end of the last message is..... The FACT that no raag has been prescribed to japji sahib and other baani's is an indication of how important it is to obey the raag nomenclature otherwise. Another point to note, if raag weren't important, why has raag gauri been coupled with other raags (ie. raag-deepki). I believe deepak was a raag created by tansen (a singer in the court of akbar) who had the ability to light candles with his singing... this is just singing... we read in sukhmani sahib that within simran (remembrance from the heart) all the sidhis, nidhis, and ridhis are found.... well, isn't this an indication in itself? also asa di vaar has "vaar saloka naal.... ki dhuni"..... hmmm, this in itself indicates to me, at least, that guru sahib wanted these to be sung in the "pristine" form. all the best

gurfatehji, The darbar maryada has changed significantly now to suit the people and community in which everyone is living. From my knowledge (I'll dig up the sources for you). A darbar would start with a 1) shan- period to create the mood 2) 2 shabads were done in a big taal (ie, chartaal, dhrupadh) 3) katha 4) either a pauri, or 2 shabads in a shoti-taal ..then a pauri. Now, Singing and doing kirtan is a bhagtee in itself. Raags, when done "shudh" are themselves enlightening and have an effect on you and your soul. They have been preserved in the indian tradition in the most precise and calculative way. The effect of the raag coupled with an understanding of the bani (which should be evident in one's lifestyle and theological approach to the world) should touch the people. An interesting thought has occured to me, Gurbani (our guru) is nirmol (without blemish)....yet so many of us have so many blemishes, how can say we fully understand or even appreciate gurbani (do you get the gist). There is so much we take for granted and underplay. These days, anyone who wears a hazuria and a kurta pajama can be a granthi, in guru ji's time, the first granthi of darbar sahib was baba buddha ji (are we even close to that in our living). I may be linched for saying this, but I believe the history behind each rehitnama etc, should be delved into deeply. My only concern is that a "situational" set of dictates may have been taken out of context by the "hardcore" masses and now, we are creating maryada's which echo everything that guruji was trying to teach us. (Mind you, if an individual has had a personal experience which has strengthened their faith and it seems odd to everyone else, I would not judge or even question the individual, but if it becomes a communal dictate, then I have reservations). I would also like to make a plea to all my brothers and sisters out there, please look at gurbani and rehitnaamay and everything else in its full context instead of pulling out "one-liners".... guru sahib is a living force, not a set of commandments etched in stone (this being said with no malice or criticism of our judeo-christian brothers/sisters' faith). har maidan fateh!

Actually on another note, if the buddha dal did come back in power, people would try to create an alternate takht and reclaim history to suit them. The only thing I know we could be sure of, if buddha dal did come into control, is that the panth will not be subject to the stagnancy of modern day religion as the focus of sikhi would again return to merit.

what I find really interesting is that the akali dal is in bed with the BJP (similar to the ku klux klan being cohorting with the black panthers), and us sikhs prefer to work together on "hating" terms.... crazy isn't it. Yet anyone who tends to promote any type of unity or cross religious. cross cultural bridging, gets called RSS...LOL

Although I have a nihang leaning in some sentiments, I wonder if this would be feasible or even beneficial. Take this for example, we have factions everywhere. Many people make alliances to one faction and attack the other. The other respondse back. Apart from creating friction, their actions speak for theirselves. As far as I am concerned, when that "pyaar, and ekta" is compromised for factional gain or purposes, the whole idea of JUST leadership goes down the tubes. As per the buddha dal, here are a few points that need to be addressed. What is being done by them to secure the gurdwara's and their upkeeping. I have heard of guru ka maseet being preserved by singhs of the shaheedi misl, taruna dal (if that is the right name, what used to be the dal that baba kirtan singh was the jathedar of). What prachaar is being done by the buddha dal outside of india? Even at this point baba santa singh ji does prachar of sarbloh granth (which is great, but then what happened to all the "secrets" and the importance of those secrets). I know a singh, very well, who is extremely close with santa singh. I have seen proof so that I am convinced. I am not attacking santa singh here, as I respect that his nitnem is very long and from some of the stuff that I hear, that the buddha dal nihangs are actually doing stuff in india to preserve things. yet what about kar seva? I hear that the harian vela nihang singhs are rejects but even if they are, I see them building schools etc and other stuff to help people who have suffered. One excuse for why the buddha dal is not in power is that "it is guru sahibs hukam", well on the same note "guru sahib has also ordained the sgpc with power". That is hukam too, if the nihangs were invincible, they would not have been overthrown. We know the only force that is invincible is nirankar, parmatma, waheguru etc. Another thing to note is that we have an itihaasik gurdwara in pakistan, I'll get the name for those interested, where the nihang singhs were tied to a tree by the udasi's and burnt. The point I am making here is that virtue, is hard earned, and power etc. severs ties. Even if nihangs did get along with the other samparda's, when it came to power, every group was as hungry as the next. mahants wanted to retain power, nihangs wanted it, there was a fight and then ties are severed. I know udasi's here who consider nirmallay to be the khatri's (or lower class scholars) and nihangs to be the enemies along with sgpc. The family here have their links to the udasi's in hardwar and come from a very respectable lineage. It is ironic, we fight over jatha/samparda/caste/sect/subsect/.... but how often do we take the time to step out of circle of comfort and make ties with others from other races and helping to eliminate racial, cultural differences? We believe the khalsa to be akal purkh's fauj (as ordained by guru sahib). The damallay de salok say "hum hai akaali, sabh ke vaali, humra panth niara hai".... if that is what we stand for, where is the akali (nihang, buddha dal, taruna dal, or even sikh regiment) in the UN. One can argue that india was extremely multicultural and sikhs became distinguished at a very oppurtune time. What has happened? I have read pracheen panth prakash and I know that singhs believe that guru gobind singh offered the whole world to the nihang singhs but they only wanted panjab. We have a very cosmopolitan faith, that has succumbed to fascism around us, in it, we have become "tillay". What we need, is for us to empower ourselves, stop worrying about RSS and other so called threats. Let us get out of this defeatist mentality and shine. We have a history to be proud of, let us encourage those who are taking steps forward to promote this. In the guru's times, india was oppurtune because it was the nasdaq of euro-asia. In our global environment, the internet and the media are our nasdaq's. Everything is out in the open, let us do our own little parts and go forward. stay in chardiankalla waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh

hello everyone, I should have done this initially actually. my source is nirmal sampardai, by pritam singh. It was published by the guru nanak dev university in amritsar. I am doing a translation (with my understanding and commentary) of the article by darshan singh, pg. 453. enjoy

Nirmallay I have been reading a Punjabi book about nirmallay and I thought I would put together a post on what was written. I commend the effort put forth by the authors in sharing the traditions. So I thought I would do a loose translation. I don’t believe that there should be any elitism, of any sort, when it comes to facts. This article has many typos etc etc, so please bear with it . 1716, banda bahadur died, and for 50 years there was practically no “open†prachaar of sikhi. People were scared to go by the gurdwaray/dharamsal’s. they probably weren’t attacked because the mughals probably kept them as traps, like people do with cheese and mice. The Udasi’s most probably took care of the dharamsals. The first nirmalla dera was established by (sant) dargaha singh. He was a sikh of guru gobind singh who stayed with the “tat†khalsa, instead of siding with the bandhai (from reading excerpts of pracheen panth prakash, I have inferred that the “seperation†of the Bandai khalsa was not looked upon with great respect…meaning it was actually a “split†from the khalsa ideals). Dargaha singh escaped the mughal hakumat and moved to khankal in 1710, where he established a dera. It is common knowledge that Sikhs had to flee Punjab in hard times. Common sense would dictate that they would go as far away as they could for temporary retreats. They knew to go the “nirmallay†deray outside of Punjab. Hence, they would take shelter there. The first official nirmalla dera opened up in amritsar in 1750 by koer singh, and, shortly after, an udasi sant by the name of santokh das opened one up in 1755. One would assume that the prachaar of sikhi was dead from the death of banda singh bahadur till the political and social climate of amritsar was better, but that was certainly not the case. The nirmallay who stayed in panjab migrated to the malwa region, where the influence of the mughals was significantly less, and they traveled from village to village. What is interesting here, in my opinion, is the method they used to preach sikhi and what they ended up doing in the process. They weren’t missionaries as we would see them today but actually ambassadors who empowered the common folk. They traveled from village to village and integrated theirselves with everyone. They used their vedic knowledge to act as hakims/vaids. They would give everyone medicine regardless of the afflicted person’s background. The only thing they would ask in return was seva, if even that. People would gladly do seva because Vaids were given angel-like status in people’s eyes. This would open the doors for communication and acceptance with everyone in the village because selfless work was done to help people. The average villager would have recognized the intentions of these social workers and seen through them had they been using this as a tactic to “convert†people, but that certainly was not the case. The nirmallay actually became close with everyone in the villages and offered them advice and provided basic counseling on family matters. Only people who are trusted or holy (in this case both, by means of virtue) would be have this liberty. The nirmallay, would be sensitive to the social climate around them because their history stemmed from a proactive stance against oppression (the martyrdom of guru tegh bahadur, the sacrifice of the 4 sons of guru gobind singh..etc etc). They recognized that the locals did not want to be subject to the oppression or deceit of the tyrannical mughals, hence they protected their children by not sending them through the equivalent public school system. Those non-muslim people who were working with the government had absolutely no qualms with sending their children to the public, moghul run, schools. Similarly, those hindu’s who were rich, had their children sent to elite private schools, but the average child did not have access to these institutions. The nirmallay, without any incentive except the need to empower others, started teaching Sanskrit and gurmukhi to the children of the villages that they belonged to. They used their scholastic aptitude to empower anyone who wanted to learn. They won people over, and many of their pupils followed in their footsteps. It is interesting to note here that the nirmallas appearance could not be as distinct as the akali khalsa, hence it makes common sense for them to have dressed in white or bhagwa (the ochre color worn by sadhus in India). Larger karray and kirpans would be replaced with smaller ones lest they wanted to be known and hunted down by the authorities. They did not have a governing body (from my understanding) because they established deray. This hypothesis is further attested to by the fact that their pilgrimages to places like hardwar required them to eat, have langar, with the udasi’s (who weren’t always receptive to them) because there was no central organization that provisioned langar etc. As the tension between the 2 groups increased and the ties severed; The need for an organized langar system was established. In 1789, the nirmallay had their first organized langar and it was attended by respected scholars/saints such as pandit gulab singh and pandit nihal singh. I am still reading and will write more. For those interested, the next section will cover the establishment of the deray and the reason why dates/times became auspicious (ie. Pooranmashi, sangrand etc).

There was an udasi, who in the 1800's, had set up an an akhaara in st.petersburg, russia. This akhaara housed guru granth sahib and had maharaaj ki prakaash done there. There was also an udasi named "triptkacharya" who had shared a story with the "sadhoo bela' sanstha's mukhi in hardiwar in 1976, 1) a bihari lady and her father in-law had approached the udasi to get a mantar. so he asked her to repeat "om thaths vithurvaraynya". She tried it once and then seemed adamant the second time. So then her father-inlaw had asked him to give her the "satinam" mantar... which was mool mantar. The udasi laughed and said, that no matter how much he tries to give the gaitree mantar, that the ladies in bihar and U.P. feel more resonance and feeling from guru nanak's mantar and that he has seen this happen time and time again, in each pind. I have documented references in case someone wants them, feel free to privately message me

sat sri akaal Bikramjit, thank you very much for the information. This is a topic that I will share some of my own views and understanding on. Firstly, Historical facts are mere facts, how they are understood and construed to develop a "history" is subjective. More times than not people like decisions (even every day life decisions) without looking at the facts and assessing what little they do have and discarding what doesn't fit with their "chosen" beliefs. In saying this, it is important to understand everything from everyone's point of view (in my opinion). I'll give you a perfect example, our 5 kakkars are viewed by different people , differently: a) they are practical in warfare and survival they are symbols to ground us in the principles of sikhi c) that they are "mystical" and help us advance spiritually I will say this though, our current view of sikhi seems limiting to me and that is why any facts I come across can help. Here are other questions which I think about at times a) if initiation was charan-pahul for sikhs prior to guru gobind singh, what about those people who had come into sikhi via masands? or via the udasi's etc? not everyone travelled to see the guru, not everyone could afford to... did they 1) take charanpahul from the local caretaker of the dharamsal? 2) did they die and come back to retake amrit from guru gobind singh? 3) did they empower theirselves with the message of sikhi and practice did that make them inferior? I'll write more, I would say this though... no one here is really an authority, none of us understand the master plan.. waheguru

Hello to all, I have read this section of akaal ustat in pandit narain singh's steek of dasam granth. I find that using a scholarly method (such as that carried on by any tradition based on meritocracy and started by great people have endured because they attract those who really want to learn) gives a better understanding or base to understanding the context of words/ and or sentences (albeit with their personal and methodological bias). I am not in the habit of continuously quoting people, although inspiration is drawn. I sat down and thought about writing my thoughts initially, but then I realised that it would be a vain attempt to "front" my intellect. Then I thought about repeating what I had read, but I don't have the text in front of me, nor can I really do any justice. I am going to take this task seriously, and actually try to understand and give my learning. understanding on this topic for the first question. Give my understanding on this topic.. please await. I don't want to debase the gurbani (tool (in one light) greatest gift (in another)) and vainly spit out what sounds good. waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh

Lalleshvari, I have a question for you, if nirmallay are one wing of the khalsa, (which makes sense as 5 nirmallay were sent to kashi...hence, initiation into the panth) a) did they wear a big kirpan? did they actually wear a "jati/sati" kachera c) was blue a non-permissable color (meaning was their any reason why white and "bhagwa" were used) Now, there have been nirmallay sadhs such as "baba dalel singh"; was he amritdhari and since he was so respected by many, would the fact that he wasn't amritdhari, from khanday battay da amrit; mean he's any less of a saint? also, read the itihaas of baba jwala singh harkowal, on the advice of another "sant" he took "shatardhaara (afeem)" because a shardaloo had given it with pyaar. He took it consistently until he realised that it was overpowering his body... he was told by the sant that it keeps one's body "chust" and helps ones "birti" (probably during smaadhi)....

I know this one is controversial, but I was wondering what the 4 bujjher kurehits are. where does the eating of fish come in? (kuttha/non-kuttha) what about pre-marital sex? what about alcohol for non-pleasurable reason? when is pesh appropriate? what happens if someone takes off their dastaar or parts from the kakkars? what is the effect of drugs on spirituality? if kuttha is sacrificial meat, is jhatka an act of compassion (meaning, meat isn't an issue, but this is the ideal way= less infliction of pain? I would like some knowledgable people to share info. I have been doing my research as well, and I will post it in a bit

It has been ages since I have seen or checked this, if actions= karams; then Guru Nanak had karams. My point is that the good was well beyond the capacity of the average individual. I personally have faith that guru nanak was the sargun saroop of nirankar. About past lives, I don't believe guru nanak did. I have never read that guru nanak had past lives. There is the belief that guru gobind singh resided at hemkunt sahib as well as the concept that bachitar natak is figurative and metaphoric in that section. Again, I believe guru nanak was god manifested and much beyond the average man. Part of this is my sharda, part of it is general logical thinking on my part. The guru was god, when the sevak gained virtue, and reflected them, they became guru; hence, all the guru's were the same jyot. I must say though veerji, I re-read my post and I am wondering what elicited these questions, thanks

hello everyone, I have been asking myself as of late, as to what in sikhi, or in its periphery, has caused people to shift away. 1) there is an unecessary drive to achieve milestones (ie. spiritual experiences, approval of "sants", and general respect or visibility in the community) my thoughts on this are that: these are all ego building excercises and people get stuck misusing goodness. IE. atomic power is used to make bombs. 2) There is a discrepancy between what people claim, vouch for, and "stand" for and their respective actions. We are too caught up in ideals. (Ie. we should give our lives to seva completely, everyone in the world MUST be keshdaari, "oh she's my sister/brother"...yet, one is having lustful thoughts about him/her, I am open minded...yet one can't bear to see someone practising a different way or even let them practice without undermining their approach or their affiliations). my thoughts: this sets unimaginabley high standards and a sense of inferiority because one cannot practice what they preach. It is like the guy who wants to keep his kesh, feels he/she is not ready and then feels like failure (this has been me for many years). 3) an inert, yet overt strive to create uniformity(Ie, one panthic maryada, one panthic rehit, one set of nitnem bani's, one length, one set of additional). my thoughts: time and time again we read; "anek hai, fer ek hai". Science has shown that no two molecules bond alike 100% of the time; hence nothing has the exact same chemical composition and material existence... why are we trying to deny god of its creative diversity instead of celebrating. The only thing that is one and true is god, everything else is a vain negation. 4) too much focus on "sikh" culture as opposed to heritage. my thoughts: sikh culture is the paramount of a transferable spirituality that we have bounded to certain rules and regulations. I agree that much of it is guru sahib's wish of us, and we should, out of sharda and only sharda, live them. Yet we are not bound to mere rituals and our focus isn't there. Heritage, in my opinion, encompasses all this because it views aspects of culture derived from the spirit of the religion which has been frozen in time. It is a recreated art and a respect of the highest form. Personally, sikh heritage provides me with a platform to move forward. Heritage also, usually only entails, the virtues of a group...culture encompasses the rest I am interested in hearing other's thoughts.. sat sri akaal

what defines puran singh as a singh sabhia? would it be his pro-kesh stance, him being influenced by bhai veer singh, would it be that he disengaged himself from "hindu-india". Personally, I have been at extremes in my life, many factors including personal experience to ideals, to influence to practicality has had me grappling with these issues, but in the end I feel guruji's bakhshish has allowed me to see things from both ends and I take the appropriate stance accordingly. with regards to sikhism and its relationship with hinduism, as seen by professor puran singh, what I gather is that sikhi, in his time, was not openly recognized by mainstream indians (again, this is my understanding). So, some of his writings will reflect his experiences and his influences, lalleshvari, what book of his talks about the original sampardava? again, other issues aside, the "spirit" projected by professor puran singh was refreshing because many others who have written usually use flowery words but it appears to be "superficial". sat sri akaal

professor puran singh, In my opinion he has lived an experience and is expressing it through sikhi. For those who like osho, read "spirit of a sikh". This man's approach and zeal is formidable ( I am speaking from intellect and feeling)

dharam singh zakhmi and jatha were rababi muslims who became amritdhari sikhs, interesting how they quote from alot of farsi texts and use baba farid's bani as parmaans. bhai taba was also an incredible rababi from what I know, they characteristically sang at the top of their lungs, where as the singhs who sang dhrupadh (and possibly the rababi's too) would sing more akin to bhai avtaar singh's style. I am definitely pro-rag

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gurfatehji! I first read chandee di vaar at a friend's house last week. I was sitting there and felt the need to do paat, I had just come from a gurdwara and felt the inner peace, but there was something missing. I am going to share this experience. I picked up the gutka and it turned to chandee di vaar, being calculative due to my mindset, I thought ( I have 20 minutes)... I started reading... the words rolled off of my tongue and It was absolutely incredible. what I read properly,seemed shudh to me...but I did err whenever my mindset drifted from dhyan in paat to dhyaan in what was going on around me. I finished with a red phase. I felt like I had just smoked up (its been a while since I have done this), but I still remember how it felt. a completeness and a presence of love came from within, I felt exuberant and felt like all I was going to get was good fortune (Each is to their own on how they measure it). In essence, I did it again the following night, but I know that It is a baani I want to keep doing, possibly part of nitnem when I start to comply by the panthic one. stay in chardekalla ji waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh

when love and humility towards the guru is there, one only gains. but to put it in a framework for understanding helps one, when the chips are down. therefore here is my understanding or conviction.... guru nanak and guru angad were both of the same "jot" and that followed further as well with the following 8 guru's until the hukam was to pass on gurgaddi to the panth and the granth. now, what made the guru's, guru, was that they had an ordained mission from god. Many saints have come and gone, but very few have established something that has passed on like sikhism has. Apart from yogi bhajan singh, there haven't been ambassador's to anyone outside of punjab. Yet sikhism is considered to be the youngest and the 5th largest religion. cult personalities come and go, but true teachers/saints will never be forgotton. ie. osho will be remembered, if at all, as a guy who got whacked for his influence in the states.... how many people will "really" go back and reflect on him? at least with christianity, jesus died for the sins of mankind (something much more significant), guru tegh bahadur died for freedom of religion (which could easily be said for another religion). so, in essence, when it comes to tangibility, there were 10 perceptors who established truth for 200+ years, gave an identity, constantly fought against social injustice, established kingdoms, and provided sustenance and hope for the poor. on the spiritual level, they have established a system so strong that many people throughout their time and onwards have become saintly... virtue of the word and qualities has fashioned humans with that have no hatred and their "direct" connection with god through the words of the preceptor by 1) singing 2)listening 3) contemplating and then finally ACCEPTING, through every test in the book, that it is the truth people get linked with the truth.... now the question is, what was "baani"? gurbani was the word of god which was divinely inspired by the guru nanak's experience with god. Guru nanak in all forms was seens as the greatest of the great, with those who had a spiritual bent, and a normal person with a magnetic appeal by the layman (usually the emperors)... now, using sikhi, we can argue that those going towards god were gurmukh/ and those going towards theirself were manmukh. now, guru nanak's words were sacred because they affirmed his lifestyle which was "purity in thought/heart/intention towards god". everything came back to that "1". that "1" was what his dhyan remained in... interestingly enough, the religious people could not pinpoint guru nanak and his thought, which according to my thinking, is an indication that he was at a further state.. and those who did see nanak and understood what he was, remained loyal (ie mian mir... I mean nanak as in the jot or link to god).... now, here is how it helps me. by living guru nanak's experience through the word, I would get moulded by that connection of his soul (which I believe was the closest in kalyug, to god) and then as I get more and more absorbed, I become like guru nanak.. which means I would be truthful, loving, and fully in control of the 5 vices. what reinforces me in this day and age is all those people who are doing likewise, and their actions. At the end of the day, no one in this day and age has given their children to death, without regret..guru gobind singh. no one has travelled the world by foot and been called: llama/pir/sant etc. the guru's left behind a legacy that was hard to follow, and those who have drawn from their inspiration have excelled. Out of true humility, because one has "Truly" gained... none of guru nanak's disciples can really ever say they are greater or equal to nanak, just because their karam haven't been at the same caliber of guru sahibs.. look at all those people who remained faithful to sikhi after guru gobind's demise, their spirit (Which was induced from baani and a recollection of their guru's practical life made them run to death). Being martyred meant salvation for them, and in most casese, they were fighting for justice and truth.. things which are collectively higher than our own individual egos. the actions of the guru's are timeless. Gurbani is timeless as it is the source from which they fullfilled their duties. What I believe happens to most is that that same inspiration and connection to god will get us in the door and on the way. an example here is clubbing, we go for the atmosphere or experience. Yet if we meet someone who is an avid clubber and somehow the "epitome" of a clubber, his words and enthusiasm will be enough to ignite that spark, once we get in, we create our own experience. likewise, guru nanak had a total and truthful understanding of god (which means he knew he didn't know) although he had experienced, and we will get to that and have god speaking to us through our intuitiion and love (as did happen with guru nanak). Unless we are deemed to be saints in this life, our karam's will never be as close to guru nanak's. but what we can be assured of is that our connection to god, and our own respective experiences will keep us humble and at bay. raaj karega khalsa! (the preceding was written out of inspiration with one continous stroke. I just kept typing, I poured it all out, that is why some parts may not be that connected. the following vaar inspired me) bhai gurdas's var: the relation between creation and creator pvx gurU gur Sbd hY rwg nwd ivcwrw] puvun guroo gur shubudh hai raag naadh vichaaraa|| The basis of the world is air (the mixture of gases) and Sabad (Word) is the Guru of all knowledge from which flow further all thoughts, music and attendant sounds. mwq ipqw jl Drq hY auqpq sMswrw] maath pithaa jul dhhuruth hai outhuputh su(n)saaraa|| Mother and father are the creative forces in the form of earth and water. dweI dwieAw rwq idau vrqy vrqwrw] dhaaee dhaaeiaa raath dhio vuruthae vuruthaaraa|| Night and day are the nurses who nurse for the creatures and this way the whole system goes on operating. iSv SkqI dw Kyl myl prikrq pswrw] shiv shukuthee dhaa khael mael purakiruth pusaaraa|| With the combination of Siva (the consciousness) and Sakti (the inert nature) this whole world comes into being. pwrbRhm pUrn bRhm Gt cMdR Akwrw] paarubrehum poorun brehum ghutt chu(n)dhr akaaraa|| The transcendental perfect Lord is permeating through all as the same moon in the sky is visualised in all the pitchers of water. Awpy Awp vrqdw gurmuK inrDwrw ]ñù] aapae aap vuruthudhaa gurumukh nirudhhaaraa ||uu|| That Lord beyond all the sustenances is the sustenance for the gurmukhs and He alone operates through all after re-reading the var.. in simple terms, bani and guru is that god within us, guru nanak truthfully got to it, and through reciting singing, and contemplating, we do veechar and it shaped our mind and we live truthfully like guru nanak, except we do it through our own karams.

I just wanted to thank fateh singh ji for his response. More than anything, I am willing to draw upon the commonality we have as humans and followers of path of tolerance and love. Sure enough, I view shabad guru as my guru and would reference my experiences with god/vibrations/feelings as being guru as opposed to a living sant/guru/baba etc... Yet, I can say that i respect the namdhaari panth for a few reasons a) as compared to the other groups which reside on the periphery of the sikh nation (as we know it).. they still do have respect for guru granth sahib ji, amrit sanchar, gurmat sangeet, etc etc They have maintained and still keep tradition in tact (as they know It) My idea is that so long as the sikh path (as most know it) is not degraded or taken stabs at, I feel we can all communicate. what I would actually like is to understand sikh history from the naamdhari perspective. I think the only thing that ever bothers me, personally, is that when I meet someone who is not from the sikh path (as most know it) starts tellng me that I am wrong etc etc. Whether they be nirankari, radhasoami (not namdhari as of yet) why is it that they feel they have to "prove" they are right. my contention aside. we are all living and all striving for some point of oneness. ....whether we are aware of it or not. personally, I am at a point where I want to absorb as much tradition from the past to help take the positives forward. Then one day, we will have a global community of dignity. lets not fall into the factionalism that victorian era brits set adn have graduated from. lets get into the limelight and shine waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh

Narsingha, fair enough, Give me some time to sift through gurbilas shemi, dasmi, suraj prakaash and pracheen panth prakaash. Let me clarify that my thesis started from where I said thesis, and ended just prior to me addressing scenario's a) - d). I have been told that there are many persian texts available from around the mid 1800's. If we pooled our resources as a community and read what was written, it would benefit all as the information would have the bias of the authors (as opposed to the bias of interpreters within the present day sikhfold)... well its inevitable everyone will read and extract what they wish from it. I came across a very interesting article, it was in a book called tribes of the sindh. I have the details on the author etc. on some loose scraps. but it mentioned how the sikh community in the sindh region (around the early 1800's were not much different than the "hindu"... compared to the muslim population.) they stated the priests were called "udaasi's" and that they administered 3 handfuls of "amrit" after a morning ishnaan (on some auspicious day). Those who wanted to enter the sikh-fold would take 5... whereas the "sehajdhari's" would take 3 and recite a specific mantar. if anyone is interested in the author and the reference material I'll be glad to post it. Narsingha, I will spend some more time in "polishing" the thesis and will have something put out by saturday take care to all

sat, sri akaal. I'd like to say a hello to everyone as this is my first time writing. Khalsa soulja, The point that you made about having dasam granth, dasam guru darbar, or whichever name you would like to address the compilation of guru gobind singh's baani, during amrit sanchar/sanskar is very valid. My understanding of why it is required boils down to the collective choice the panth made at that time. IF (since I cannot verify by any sources apart from second/third/fourth hand knowledge) the presence of dasam granth during the amrit sanchaar was mandated by the "panth" during an era of history....then, it makes sense as to why it should be present now. The view of the nihangs is that the "panthic" authority was vested in the buddha dal. That being the case, anything they decree would be implemented. In the old days, one would have to be a very thorough, articulate, highly educated, skillful, and disciplined individual to head of the panth. (if anyone begs to differ, that is your choice. I stand firm on the belief that our jathedars were never buffoons who just fought their way to power). my thesis (overall point): dasam granth was and is mandated by the "panth" (buddha dal) to be present during amrit sanchaar. Things have changed and the panth is currently NOT the buddha dal for modern day sikhs. The only way this can be refuted is if a) it is proven through outside sources that amrit sanchar (after gobind singh's death) did NOT have dasam granth present providing there is a date of inception that it can be proved against. the buddha dal was never the panth c) The buddha dal GAVE its authority to the singh sabha/sgpc. Lets face it, nihang singhs have stayed firm to their faith over the years. d) the extent of the authority that gobind singh had passed onto the guru panth has been overextended and abused by the panthic leaders who have been in power. As for oral tradition, well identifying with one group for acceptance, or for the sake of not being categorized into another is still cultural because there are mannerisms and behaviours which are accepted and practiced in a group.... a "group" can never escape conformity (that is why I firmly believe that the guru-sikh relationship is meant for us, as individuals, and god). And that is the reason why no group can claim god to theirselves. Yet, to get things done and move beyond our ego's, we must learn to work with others (in the true sense of those words). as for oral tradition, well just because it has been said doesn't make it right. It has merit as do other things, *such as written proof*...yet even written documents are discarded as well. anyone with any influencial capacity can captivate mass acceptance, and hence a partial truth is accepted. my plea to all my sikh brothers and sisters (whether you are pre-singh sabha or post-singh sabha, or somewhere in between) is that you create your own relationship with your guru. In doing so, try to understand what guru ji taught us (through example and methodology... ie, santhya, raag, scripture etc etc). Let us come to our own decisions and accept and respect each other for "uddham" (effort) as opposed to tangible ritualism etc etc... or basic adherence to a "philosophy" for doing things. ps: On a surface level, the argument posed by sarbloh.info, from my understanding, isn't we are right! you are wrong!... it is to get people to think. The method in which it is done is to show people that sikhi is beyond any cultural affiliation, and that it has become marginalized by those who think that way. The reason why I believe it has been presented the way it has is to let the majority of message board users (who are usually affiliated with one group or another) that the tolerance level of sikhi in the past is different to what it is now. I don't believe the following has been said by anyone, but my belief is that the truth doesn't need to be purified. Hence, the "tat" maryada (preached by any group) is baseless UNLESS it helps with one's sikhya (understanding and control of 5 bikaars). try it and see, if it works ...kirpa. If not, then don't bash the rehit and lose faith... take it easy everyone, and I'll post again. sat, sri akal