drawrof

The idols were on the parkarma of the deray....they weren't 'in' darbar sahib from what I've read. These idols were in the 'bungay'...the ones we do ardaas for all the time. This poses some really interesting questions as to why they would be there and then what people believed.....

Hey, I read one account (I'll come back with the source) that said that the sikhs were forgetting the art of shooting the bow and arrow by the late 1780's....so, by nearly all accounts, it would be difficult for that to have remained in tact. Shaheediyan, the baba at anandpur sahib is also named gyan/gyana singh...he is the one that knew some pentray but he wasn't conversant in the battle formations although he claimed to have heard of them when Niddar Singh spoke to him in 2007-2008. And to speak to dalsingh's question....how would that ropey thing have worked and would it not backfire if 3-4 jumped into it...I would assume the person who is wielding it would look akin to someone who has been caught in peter parker's web! (try that for mythological!).

Shaheediyan, I believe it is the same person....

Its funny how some 'sikhs' will jump up and down for the rights of others to have their own religious identity and yet get their knickers in a twist when a Sikh defends the Khalsa identity. Same goes for the liberal left wing nut case Sikhs who will march for the freedom of terrorist Palestinians but froth at the mouth if a Sikh mentions Khalistan! Very true TonyHP!

Dhan hai!

what do you guys have against k'neda? Me, N30...who is the 3rd party of the trinity?

I have to agree with Tsingh, my mother took my nanaji's copy (printed in 1967) and I've had it for literally 15 years, but when I go into it to see the depth of it...it is mindblowing the only thing that does throw me off though is whether the multiple arths are to be read as pauri 1 (1)...pauri 2 (1)....etc. or whether there is no real sequential order in thought. I like the explanation of gurparsaad.....excellent.

Drawrof was being sarcastic and on the contrary feel this is very positive.

Veerji.....this is kalyug....inni'?

Bijla, the questions you pose are in line with what I was getting at....IF I weren't clear before I'll say it again, We are all byproducts of our experience and our environment. Nirgun brahm is the inexpressible and any attempt we make to describe nirgun brahm falls short of the truth because that sach which is in creation can not be captured in creation. Similarly, when dealing with these kinds of theological issues, one would have to talk in the vernacular that people are aware and people are conversant. Ramanand, who is deemed to be the guru of kabir, sain, ravidas, pippa and dhanna believed in sargun brahm. Avtarvaad is definitely part of sargun bhagti, what I am saying is that the bhagats and the bhatts, when getting diksha from the guru's and attaining their respective avastha's would only praise the guru in the highest/best/most profound way they know how... On the topic of whether avtarvad is a theological reality or not...I not informed enough to make a comment, but I do believe there is some sort of descent...hence making us all avatars of a sort.... As for gurmat, I believe it is mostly nirgun upashana, but there are many 'sargun' elements of worship that have become part of sikhi (all across the board)....<Drawrof, preparing his own gallows>.... Nanaksar- guru bhagti- the way guru granth sahib ji is worshipped is guru bhagti Focusing on waheguru mantar in your mind in its 'akhree' form is a form of sargun bhagti Focusing on a picture of the guru, picture of a sant, or any point is part of sargun bhagti I don't say sargun bhagti is any less (I definitely don't think it is more), but I see it as being a stage one has to get past to do nirgun upashna.....if one has a 'jugti' or way to circumvent it, then yes....nirgun upashana is the way to go......

Nirgun brahm is the only entity without blemish or biased. Satguru which I have understood as being the accesible element of god which we experience above the senses is and always will be forever permanent. Our 10 guru's became that and were one and had no identity of themselves as they became the manifest. I am still of the belief that Guru Nanak never had a living teacher as a spiritual guide but was blessed to have been realised from a young age. I agree that sikhi has vaishnav influences, but I think we need to look at what form of vaishnavism was accepted or in vogue. Ramamand was a Ramanuji who stepped away from his guru raghavnand ji (from the sri samparda) and became less casteist, opened up the doors of bhagti to females (ie. sarsuti) and is famed for being a proponent of sargun bhagti in the form of seeta's love for ram (as opposed to many of the other ramanuji's who were still focusing heavily on krishan-leela....which in itself had become riddled with nuances that would make it seem heretical in the least and hedonistic at best). There came a point though where ramanand clearly became a nirgun upashik and that is the one 'hindvi padha we see in guru granth sahib ji. So let me take this back to the first comment, people will speak from their experience and their own influence. If one's influence was a legacy that lasted 300+ years at that time (which would be the ramanuji form of sargun bhagti) then the usage of that lingo/vernacular would be common-place in which case I am saying that even our mahan-vidhvans/mahapurakhs would have differing points of view. (lets look at the wealth of knowledge tsingh has shared with us on this forum with regards to pandit tara singh narotam). Here comes the caveat though....nath yogi's/siddhs/bairagis (shaiv....please correct me if I'm wrong).....According to 'preached' and widely accepted thought, sikhs used to read panj granthi as their daily liturgy....Japji sahib is deemed to be a conversation of guru angad sahib ji with bairagi's and siddh gosht is a conversation with siddhs/followers of gorak nath (nath yogis)...From my little understanding at this point, I have come to understand that shaivites don't believe in avtarvaad, in which case if you look at these 2 shabads/charchay...the terminology of avatar doesn't come in (I have taken into account that the sampardai sateeks do have the 6 avatar philosophy, which I believe was introduced by pandit tara singh narotam)but nothing within the bani itself is indicative of avtarvaad....so In closing I would have to say....that although it may be a metaphor or a reality, I sit on the fence at this time and I agree with Bijla singh here, 'ad ant ekai avatara, soi guru samjayo hamara'- chaupai sahib (pt.10)....where I believe that avtarvaad being a concept of great influence in the views of scholars/bhagats/bhatts at that time has become an accepted form of conveying messages, but I do not know how 'strictly' it applies to sikhi....please comment and correct me, I'm open to learning.... fateh!

Balbir singh, could you kindly put the whole quote up so we can actually see what is being recited. It will provide a forum for the cyber sangat to actually do some khoj.

Navjot 2, could you shed some more light on him?

Sure Balbir Singh, but true saints aren't a dime a dozen, and getting naam simran is not as easy as going to a grocery store and picking up milk (in western countries). Even then, many will not attribute anything to a sant and still bear hatred.....this is why I wanted to broach people's thinking with the hopes of opening up a dialogue to get people to exchange ideas. It appears that you have had this experience, can you kindly share what questions you had and what the experience is?

I've understood seva to be 'partaking'...not necessarily serving. When I hear that we should do satgur ki seva, I understand that as partaking or experiencing. Yes, I agree the physical action of seva with bhav etc is very defined. I am not downplaying that notion. I understand that aspect of seva in the karam realm. During meditation though, I have understood seva to be partaking/experiencing.

He was an SGPC historian whose works were probably never read because his punjabi version of prem sumarag granth actually puts ambiguities on which bani's were initially read during amrit sanchar. He uses old rehitnamay as his source. He puts the actual rehit into question. He had said that this was the oldest rehitnama he'd seen and that he had seen one that was dated to 1711. J.S Grewal had agreed with hans that it was from the 1840's etc...but then he reverted back to what Randhir singh had said.

Very very nice, what is the history of sant mahadev singh bandala wallay?

Thanks for the clarification, it makes sense

Could you please explain or provide the source? Thanks

Thanks!!!! !

Interesting question, but I think the context of the question could be changed.....was 'shabad guru' revered with guru granth sahib ji being the focal point?

I'm not eloquent like you gentlemen, but I'd like to fink I 'ave pyaaar! I thought the state of amrit- above death- was a description of the state of our mind when it is above all influences and fully cognitive that it is brahm.

Here is another one ..... 1) Shabad: 2) Extra hot 7, song 1: Bulleh Shah di kaffi (http://music.pz10.com/album/7230/Extra%20Hot%2007-Various.html) <sorry this is only a sound clip )

Disclaimer: Drawrof is not a Gurmukh.

Bro, I have a few deadlines right now and you've given me a second wind..... Before anyone gets offended or takes this as an attack on someone, I want everyone to know that this isn't a mockery at all. I am just drawing a parallel between a bollywood movie which is on the flip coin of what is being sung in the shabad. (good prem & nice voice paaji) (abstract being used to describe the material). I am itching to find some more