HarjasDevi

How is there a comparison with 1984 bhaiji, when the controversial citizenship law is inclusively designed to protect Sikh community and provide fast-track citizenship to illegals fleeing discrimination and persecution in radicalized Islamic countries? Perhaps, the newspapers are biased and we are not understanding the issue fully. Why, I wonder, are thousands of Muslims in India leading controversial protests over this issue... unless to detract and deny the near extermination of non-Muslims in neighboring countries which the law is designed to protect. Of course this doesn't justify mob violence... but I don't think India has to be secular or a safe haven for one of the most intolerant religions known to mankind. It is unjust to consider any kind of "equality" which is unilateral, and ignoring mass extermination attempts against non-Muslims in Muslim neighboring countries. You write: "Don't really see the point of comparing this situation to what will happen to hindus in another country." Yet, the entire context of the protests was regarding Indian Citizenship Law enabling Indian heritage persons trapped in Islamic neighboring countries of Pakistan, Bangladesh and Afghanistan who fled to India as illegals, to be fast-tracked into citizenship status DUE to their persecution. Muslims staged massive Congress Party sponsored protests because "Muslim" illegals weren't included... So yes, ABSOLUTELY what will happen to Hindu's in these 3 countries is the POINT of the Citizenship Law which congressi media is manipulating for more divide and conquer tactics. And while you deny the obvious relation with Citizenship Law, what it absolutely DOES NOT have anything to do with... is anti-Sikh discrimination... to the contrary... it's a law that includes provision for the protection of Sikhs, Hindu's and Christians, Jains and Parsis who experience genocidal persecution in those 3 Islamic countries. Now what an injustice that congressi media compare what is happening to mass butchery of Sikhs under Congress Party in 1984, another deceit and delusion. It is Congress Party and pro-Congress media which blames Hindu's in general, and not itself.

Very sad news... but I think you're making it more inflammatory by siding with Muslims here. India has long been torn by sectarian violence, going back for centuries... add to that corruption, poverty, criminality, etc. So, things have been relatively peaceful under Modi govt. What changed all of a sudden? Citizenship law. Oh, big claims discrimination against Muslims. Is it? What are the citizenship laws of Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Afghanistan for non-Muslims? Is it true that non-Muslims are facing bitter persecution in Islamic countries due to increasing radicalization? So, apart from the protests and the violent oppression resulting from them... how can we be honest with the truth? Citizenship Law is not discriminatory to Sikhs. It is nothing like the 1/2 Muslim man married to a Christian woman, Rajiv Gandhi who sparked riots against Sikhs in 1984 following righteous assassination of stupid Indira Gandhi for sending Army into Harmandir Sahib and slaughtering Sikh worshipers indiscriminately following her multiple, communist inspired "emergencies." This was a law intending to offer citizenship to illegals, many of previous Indian heritage who fled violent oppression in radicalized Islamic countries after being trapped there following partition. Why then would the Bill be required to include Islam? How is it "discriminatory" towards Muslim illegals who are not fleeing persecution? Hmmm, and why should it? It was not intended to be a general immigration reform opening India to everyone and everything. Yet, it was designed to protect primarily Indian heritage persons from increasing persecution in radicalized Islamic countries. What happened to all the Hindu's of Pakistan? Mob violence is always horrible and unjust... but I can't help wondering what would happen to Hindu's if they staged a protest in Afghanistan, Pakistan or Bangladesh? We already know from history don't we... the same exact thing we are seeing here. It doesn't make it right. Criminality, rape, murder are karmic debts... and the debtor will pay before the Almighty Lord. But, these political issues are never only "black" or "white." For one thing.... why would it be a good thing for India to allow unrestricted immigration from Muslims worldwide? Has it been beneficial to Germany? Sweden? England? It would be a horrific mistake... for any increase in the Muslim population... would quite clearly destroy India with civil war... easily exploited by radical Islamic neighboring countries. This isn't an anti-Sikh issue at all, and I don't think it's right to force Sikh loyalties into blind support of Muslim causes... especially this one since there's no discrimination at all, only an attempt at "protection" for non-Muslims in extremist countries. until 2017 Pakistan did not even formally recognize validity of Hindu wedding. This is beyond unjust... but no one is protesting the insane persecutions allowed, only a bill to enable illegals to gain citizenship if they were fleeing this kind of discrimination.

Tantra in it's deepest root literal meaning, means to "weave" as in Bhagat Naamdev's bani: ਸੂਤੁ ਏਕੁ ਮਣਿ ਸਤ ਸਹੰਸ ਜੈਸੇ ਓਤਿ ਪੋਤਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸੋਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ Sooth Eaek Man Sath Sehans Jaisae Outh Poth Prabh Soee ||1|| Rehaao || As one thread holds hundreds and thousands of beads, He is woven into His creation. ||1||Pause|| It is the method to save us (tra) by (tan) "to expand." The root basis of all creation. Who are the weavers? Shiva and Shakti. In Sanskrit सीव्यति or Sivati means to stitch or sew. सिव or Siva means one who sews or stitches. ਇਹੁ ਪਰਪੰਚੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕੀ ਲੀਲਾ ਬਿਚਰਤ ਆਨ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੨॥ Eihu Parapanch Paarabreham Kee Leelaa Bicharath Aan N Hoee ||2|| This manifested world is the playful game of the Supreme Lord God; reflecting upon it, we find that it is not different from Him. ||2|| ---- Now, some people will object "Shiva is NOT the Supreme Lord!" But they do not understand that "Shiva" is as much concept and definition, part and particle of the Absolute Oneness... which created the creation OMKARA which is sargun manifestation out of the infinite Primal sound current vibration of the NADA. It is the Nādabindu which is the union of Shiva and Shakti.

You reveal yourself as person incapable of rational discussion, but devolve to level of rudest insults and putdowns... and sadly that in name of "defending religion." Now you accuse me of being "Hindutva agent." LOL really? I support certain aspects of Hindu tattva for India, most especially because that is mother culture of India. I certainly did not think Russian agent, unelected First Lady Sonia Gandhi should have been in uncontested power for so long... and that building up vote bank and dissension by supporting communists and radical Saudi educated wahhabi Muslims and USA trained Christian missionaries. That said, there is much with political status of Hindutva, as being led like donkeys by Israelis that I utterly oppose. I'm a lady, not an "agent" of anyone. My "agenda" is education. "You choose devi over kaur." There is no difference at all. Both are terms of respect toward female, something far too many of you rude people on this forum understand... yet you cry about grooming gangs targeting community... yet have you taught your daughters anything besides putdowns, rude insults and threats, disrespect and self-hatred? "Yet you claim to have the utmost respect for Satguru Sahib Gobind Singh Ji Khalsa Mahraaj." He is and always will be a Satguru. Doesn't mean that persons like YOU are actually his chelay... nor that I have to agree with Sikh Missionary, Tat Khalsa or other modern political organizations which claim right to SPEAK in His name. "Some rajputs use singh as their names" Durga's Singh's as surname has Rajput origin. As Raja putra, Singh's were also Kaurs, princes.

Let me ask you this, when Guru Sahibaan are Jyot of Absolute Lord... human mind cannot distinguish Guru bani from Primal Naad. However, when Guru Sahibaan are reciting stories in Gurbani which comes from "Hindu" scriptures... why is this? In place location considered Bharat Mata? BORN from culture considered by any rational person as "Hindu." Why is the very teaching of Primal Naad, Gur Shabad and Bani, Guru... coming from "Hindu" Panth? Now, for clarity's sake... word "Hindu" is not entirely exact... it is a PLACENAME for culture and people living near area of the river Sindhu. We all know it refers to earliest Mohenjodaro and Harappa civilizations from ancient times, and people of the Vedas. Did your ancestors come from someplace else? Denmark maybe? You seem to have this delusion that someone can take something away from you... and that makes them a target for your inferiority complex, and therefore excuse for your abusive hostilities. Truth is always true. And "Sikh Panth" has no "monopoly" on truth. Moreover, it is disingenuous, deceitful and a lie to pretend traditions, culture, teachings, language, and people who became "Sikh Panth" are somehow displaced there from some foreign country and therefore free to "shit on" Hindu. If Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Mahraaj quotes from Bhagat Bani, or Simrities, Vedas, Puranas... you will "PRETEND" this does not come from "HINDU culture, people and religion, heritage and history?" Perhaps it is DANISH? While, it is UNIQUELY Guru's Bani... it remains a COLLECTION which includes BANI from persons considered HINDU SANTS! Well, they weren't Christians. So, did Guru Sahibaan MARGINALIZE their own teachings merely to generously include what is within the purview of Hindu Panth? Of course not. But YOU marginalize these teachings with Punjabiyaat pind politics... excluding entirety of Hindu Panth...wrongly and falsely... out of petty, misplaced hatreds. You live in a big world, where lots of people have lots of different ideas. Why, may I ask you does this forum contain a HINDU, and OTHER RELIGION topic section if it is just for a CERTAIN interpretation of spirituality? And here is the last question... WOULD YOU PREFER I KEPT THE NAME OF HARJASKAUR? Since, it was my understanding, after receiving, not from this forum, but perhaps because of it... 14 death threats, and 1 threat of rape... that to keep SIKH NAME was considered offensive when I have formally left SIKH PANTH. And so, this old name used here, in my estimation was not fair to GOOD PERSONS of Sikh Panth... and only causing loss of calmness to fanatic idiots... that out of highest respect, I should elect what Sikh fanatics have called me... HARJASDEVI? But... you don't like this either. Well, ask your admin then, if he wants to obliterate my posting ability... Sometimes it's easier to HIDE from discussions which broaden understanding... and terrorize people into a false obedience and agreement. You choose, what your future becomes. I am only little lady... and my power is not misguidance... but TRUTH. Allow me to ask you humbly... IS IT NOT THE TRUTH?

Thank you Sarabatam jio for your efforts. Yes!~ I have utmost respect for Satguru Sahib Gobind Singh Ji Khalsa Mahraaj. His bani contains the absolute truth.

I am familiar with issue that many people are unsettled by posts appearing in name HarjasKaur... that despite the fact that Rajput Singhs and Kaurs were Durga Devi devotees, would humbly and for the sake of "calmness" prefer that my name on this forum be changed to HarjasDevi as a sign of utmost respect to Khalsa Panth.

Mathematics encompasses all the numbers. There are patterns of numbers that tell us powerful secrets and mysteries about forces and powers of the universe, knowledge of which is key. Besides, this section is "other" faiths and philosophies, Hinduism. So what point does strict Gurmat teaching apply here? And... who is to say that YOUR interpretation of Gurmat is actually correct? 33 is powerful symbolically, and the ultimate truth is One without a Second... but we live in THIS world of duality and Maya... we do not live in heaven realm or some purely spiritual imagining... the Oneness of God can be discerned in THIS material world only thru the sargun agency of the UNMANIFEST ULTIMATE who we cannot even perceive because it is AGOCHAR. In mathematics, the equivalent of everything... is nothing, the null void, shunyata. So, everything and nothing are part of the Oneness. If 3 were an insignificant number... why is it spoken of in Gurbani? Or, perhaps there is a teaching there. All is meaningless confusion lost in variety? What about attending university to study psychology, engineering, medicine, philosophy, economics? What about the significance of 33 Savaiye? 33 sections of Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

What you said is well spoken and wise bhaiji. Thank you. You cannot help but be, for now and for all time, and in dimly conceived past and far distant future... my brother. In the West, Christ has largely been accepted as symbolic of mankind's savior or guru-like figure who raises mankind back to consciousness of God. His origin was a misunderstanding of Krishna. Nonetheless, hidden in Western occult symbolism and numerology, Vedic secrets remain if you want to find them. The purpose of this post was to illustrate the truth of bhaiji jaikaara's comment... "everyone has a different way of thinking." That's because sargun manifestations of the Divine are part of everything that exists, are interwoven in our history, in odd syncronicities, and even within our own body. We cannot despise "sarguna" and praise "nirguna" alone because... the Absolute Reality encompasses absolutely everything. 33 crore devtas... 33 powers... 3... 1... creation is a supremely elegant interconnectedness. We may seem insignificant... but something within us is co-existentially eternal. We "think" and "perceive" uniquely... but even our differences have core similarities... we are far more akin than not. The embodiment of sargun manifestations of the Divine was precisely 'unique" in order that different people would have opportunity to "perceive" the One Lord, lover of all mankind, whose soul-brides we really are. Differences in race, ethnicity, country, religion are really, really not so important to the core of what we all are. It is as if the radiance of God shattered into 33 thousand pieces that all reflect THE ONE.

When your words are neither welcome nor respected, you will no longer speak them.

Here is the historical truth of the matter. An albeit hidden ancient High Priest, Philosopher and religious leader named Apollonius of Tyana was actually pivotal in the hidden connection between East and West. Knowledge of him is muted in most Western academia, because his character was used in composite to form several illustrious personages... namely the "apostle" Paul of Tarsus... author of many books in the Greek New testament of Christianity. He is also used as a composite for the Jesus figure, and so "rocks the boat" of mainstream Western theology. Why is this figure of Apollonius of Tyana central to the Eastern-Western philosophical and religious crossroads? Because Apollonius visited India and "borrowed" much of it's teachings... these in turn became severely distorted into forms of Christianity. So you see the character of Jesus, pivotal to Western Christianity, was in fact patterned after an actual Western mystic who obtained his learning from Indian spiritual masters and yogis. From the earliest days of Christianity, when it became a State religion and political power... sought to suppress that Eastern origin... and then turned around and condemned everything not within it's own doctrines as "pagan," "evil" and "spurious." ---- "[44.2] He tells us that Apollonius visited the Indians, whom he calls Brahmins, from whom he learnt much of their divine wisdom. He also visited the wise men of Ethiopia, whom he calls Gymni, because they pass all their life naked and never wear clothes even in the most trying weather. But he declares that the wise men of India are far superior to those of Ethiopia, since they are older in point of time and their intellect is purer and keener, owing to their living nearer to the rays of the sun." https://www.livius.org/sources/content/philostratus-life-of-apollonius/a-byzantine-commentary-on-philostratus-life-of-apollonius/ ---- "Born into the noble family of Tyana, Apollonius was educated by a Pythagorean philosopher in Tarsus. In his later youth, disgusted by the luxury, idleness and vice of Tarsus, he retired to the nearby village of Aegae, where he spent several years meditating in ascetic isolation. He then set out on what he regarded as his mission to learn, to heal, and to teach, throughout Asia Minor. He traveled to Assyria, Babylonia, Greece, Italy, Spain, Egypt and India, curing the sick and studying with the learned. He almost certainly was influenced by Jain teachers, then known as “Gymnosophists,” and may have been influenced by Buddhists as well. Later, he became an initiate of the Eleusinian Mysteries. In his travels, he became well known as a man of the loftiest character, a gifted healer and charismatic spiritual leader. He developed a considerable following. Many fantastic legends of his feats of prophesy and miracle-working were recorded after his death, and he came to be regarded as a “divine being.” He is probably one of the models for the syncretistic figure of Christ, many anecdotes in the life story of Apollonius are duplicated in that of Jesus. No writings of Apollonius survive, but his detailed life story was assembled from the records of his friends and associates by the scholar Flavius Philostratus (172 – 250 e.v.) at the command of the emperor Severus." https://sabazius.oto-usa.org/apollonius-tyanaeus/

There was a king who was mixed bloodline with Ptolemaic Greek (who were rulers of conquered Egypt) whose mother converted to Judaism. His name was King Izas of Adiabene. He helped lead a revolt against the Romans. The historian Flavius Josephus mentions this account where he, as a collaborator who joined Rome and was adopted by the Roman Emperor, Titus Flavius, happened upon the crucifixion of his friend and asked that his body be taken down. Josephus, as per Jewish convention was referred to as "son of" or bar, Matthias. He is the literal Joseph of Arimathea, a corruption of Joseph bar Matthias. This account is written: As a collaborator, it was the duty of Flavius Josephus to put down the Jewish revolt, and he did so by mimicking the Jewish scripture to create a new moshiach (anointed King) who would be obedient to Roman laws, pay taxes to the Roman Emperor, and worship the Roman Emperor as God... all requirements of Roman subjection. So they doctored the scriptural prophecies and created Iesous, Greek variant of Izas, or Anglicized, Jesus. This Jesus was an amalgam of a few things, mainly, the primary center of the cult of Roman Emperor worship, Julius Caesar, the true King and High Priest of Jupiter who was slain by his close friend Brutus (Judaized variant, Judas). Brutus, in custom with Roman tradition, signaled the assassination of Julius Caesar, by giving him the kiss off, or kiss of death. Caesar was slain on the ides of March and triumphantly manifested as a comet ascending the Heavens signaling his deification during Eastertime, or the traditional time of the goddess Astarte-Isis who resurrected the slain sun-god Osiris which is why she, and Jesus are always traditionally depicted wearing halos of the sun. Egyptian gods Isis and Serapis Christos Another depiction of Isis and Serapis Christos, they are serpents. This is why the Gnostic scriptures refer to Jesus as the serpent in the Garden of Eden, who gave the parents of mankind "gnosis" or wisdom. Now, following the murder of Julius Caesar, his close friend Marc Anthony became the next high priest of Jupiter, and in Roman custom raised up a victory tropaeum for a fallen hero and General. The tropaeum held aloft the helmet, breastplate, weapon and shield of the fallen. What Marc Anthony did was place the corpse of Julius Caesar on the tropaeum, wearing his victory laurel wreath and a purple robe signifying kingship. This had the effect of enraging the populace and bringing the murderers to justice, for they had slain the Lord's Anointed, the true King, the Clementia and Son of God. The world's first crucifix. So this is why the figure of "Jesus" became Jesus Christ, JC, Julius Caesar and why he taught pay taxes to Caesar and obey Roman laws, instead of fight the Romans for a throne, and this is also why he became a God-man, something utterly alien to Jewish monotheism. In a sneaky way, a lot of Jews were duped into following a Roman religion of Emperor worship and becoming an obedient subject people.

The devatay are depicted in multidimensional superimposition. At the same time, in the same place, a multiplicity of outcomes, movements, actions. This alludes to an ancient understanding of parallel universes. Perhaps there are millions of these forces, like Indra, Krishan, Lakshmi because there are millions of worlds, and in the material dimension, there are countless swaroops of the ONE which has no form, like shadows of a true reality. ਕਾਯਉ ਦੇਵਾ ਕਾਇਅਉ ਦੇਵਲ ਕਾਇਅਉ ਜੰਗਮ ਜਾਤੀ ॥ Kā▫ya▫o ḏevā kā▫i▫a▫o ḏeval kā▫i▫a▫o jangam jāṯī. Within the body, the Divine Lord is embodied. The body is the temple, the place of pilgrimage, and the pilgrim. ਕਾਇਅਉ ਧੂਪ ਦੀਪ ਨਈਬੇਦਾ ਕਾਇਅਉ ਪੂਜਉ ਪਾਤੀ ॥੧॥ Kā▫i▫a▫o ḏẖūp ḏīp na▫ībeḏā kā▫i▫a▫o pūja▫o pāṯī. ||1|| Within the body are incense, lamps and offerings. Within the body are the flower offerings. ||1|| ਕਾਇਆ ਬਹੁ ਖੰਡ ਖੋਜਤੇ ਨਵ ਨਿਧਿ ਪਾਈ ॥ Kā▫i▫ā baho kẖand kẖojṯe nav niḏẖ pā▫ī. I searched throughout many realms, but I found the nine treasures within the body. ਨਾ ਕਛੁ ਆਇਬੋ ਨਾ ਕਛੁ ਜਾਇਬੋ ਰਾਮ ਕੀ ਦੁਹਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ Nā kacẖẖ ā▫ibo nā kacẖẖ jā▫ibo rām kī ḏuhā▫ī. ||1|| rahā▫o. Nothing comes, and nothing goes; I pray to the Lord for Mercy. ||1||Pause|| ਜੋ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡੇ ਸੋਈ ਪਿੰਡੇ ਜੋ ਖੋਜੈ ਸੋ ਪਾਵੈ ॥ Jo barahmanḏe so▫ī pinde jo kẖojai so pāvai. The One who pervades the Universe also dwells in the body; whoever seeks Him, finds Him there. -Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji ang 695. ------- puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi bhuńkte prakṛti-jān guṇān kāraṇaḿ guṇa-sańgo 'sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu The living entity in material nature thus follows the ways of life, enjoying the three modes of nature. This is due to his association with that material nature. Thus he meets with good and evil among various species. upadraṣṭānumantā ca bhartā bhoktā maheśvaraḥ paramātmeti cāpy ukto dehe 'smin puruṣaḥ paraḥ Yet in this body there is another, a transcendental enjoyer, who is the Lord, the supreme proprietor, who exists as the overseer and permitter, and who is known as the Supersoul. -Bhagavad-Gita 13:22-23 ------- There are millions and millions of uncountable created beings on millions and millions of worlds, yet transcendentally within each, is the ONE indivisible, unborn and uncreated Paramatma which is essentially Akal murat. "11 All faces are His faces; all heads, His heads; all necks, His necks. He dwells in the hearts of all beings. He is the all−pervading Bhagavan. Therefore He is the omnipresent and benign Lord. 12 He, indeed, is the great Purusha, the Lord of creation, preservation and destruction, who inspires the mind to attain the state of stainlessness. He is the Ruler and the Light that is imperishable. 13 The Purusha, no bigger than a thumb, is the inner Self, ever seated in the heart of man. He is known by the mind, which controls knowledge and is perceived in the heart. They who know Him become immortal. 14 The Purusha with a thousand heads, a thousand eyes, a thousand feet, compasses the earth on all sides and extends beyond it by ten fingers' breadth. 15 The Purusha alone is all this−what has been and what will be. He is also the Lord of Immortality and of whatever grows by food. 16 His hands and feet are everywhere; His eyes, heads and faces are everywhere; His ears are everywhere; He exists compassing all. 17 Himself devoid of senses, He shines through the functions of the senses. He is the capable ruler of all; He is the refuge of all. He is great. 18 The Swan, the ruler of the whole world, of all that is moving and all that is motionless, becomes the embodied self and dwelling in the city of nine gates, flies outward. 19 Grasping without hands, hasting without feet, It sees without eyes, It hears without ears. It knows what is to be known, but no one knows It. They call It the First, the Great, the Full." -English- translation of Svetasvatara Upanishad, 11-19

"but it can not happen if Sikhs isolate themselves from interacting with Muslims like alot do- there will be trust issues and it may take many many years before that is gone." Well the truth of it is the whole world is really one big family and has totally lost sight of that fact. Whole world needs to heal on deepest imaginable levels so we canactually work at creating a world of mutual harmony and respect with authentic love of the human being without any negation, coercion, criticism or need for any kind of conversion other than the conversion of the heart.

And what do you propose to do about it? What is your solution? I already said the reform will have to come from within Islam when enough people cry out for decency and toleration then they can take back the control they have given to fanatical mullahs and archaic system of abusiveness. but lastly I don't expect any change will come about by getting hysterical simply to listen to the problems and concerns and jump to another blame of something else entirely, as below. You are aware of 1984? That is thanks to Hinduvta-You can have a look at this too Part of the solution will be in confronting the problem squarely and honestly...and as Sangh Parivar Vishwa Hindu Parishad has done, set up phone hotlines and support to those young girls and their families and help in exposing these problems to police.

Hindu dharam is flawed for the brahmanical system- but I do not mean to disrespect your Gurdev I still respect some hindu spirtual masters who have great spirtual stages and I humbly ask for your blessings and forgiveness in anything I have said to offend you or will say to offend you. My Gurudeva is a shudra caste, lol.

"Oi I resent you calling me a Muslim- I am not a Muslim at all- I am against circumcision the sunnaon the whole-any of the sharia. I am a Sikh if you do not want to call me that because" I think it was the part where you called Guru Nanak a prophet or a pir and Mohammed as the beloved Final seal of the prophets or something like that. Then you were fanatically defending the "interpretations" of haddiths and Quran while totally ignoring heart-rending video of violated Sikh girl and her family....and NO Sikh could ever ignore such a disgraceful thing and fail to call out for some kind of justice...and not excuses.

"Yes I agree with you there clergy is flawed but they are not the only ones, majority of Hindus clergy is flawed, Sikh clergy is flawed," Yeah, but they aren't preaching from scriptures that advocate murder and rape see?

"With those quran quotes you posted up just like Guru Granth Sahib an ancient language can be translated differently hence why it is forbidden to translate Guru Granth Sahib in the time of the Gurus to later versions of punjabi. With those quotes there are many websites which even deal with them you are looking at a certain interpretation for instance with the first one if you contextualise it." But the rapes and murders are still occurring and still being justified based on these scriptural passages. So it ISN'T a problem of interpretation as Islamic scholars and authentically recognized clergy are also advocating the extremism. Until, say Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Sudan, Pakistan, Lybia, Egypt, etc., stops advocating legitimacy of female war booty, Sharia, coerced conversions, Jazhia and Jihad, this conversation will never end.

"Since you feel the very need to excommunicate me on a forum let me give you the definition of a Sikh and you ask your self if you are one?" Okay, I laughed. hey wait a minute now! I protest! I am the only excommunicated person on this forum! LOL, stop encroaching on my space. Am I a Sikh? No. I was an amritdhari and gave up my amrit vows and have taken diksha with a Hindu Guru and am now a Hindu....since you asked. I never said anything personally against you or even about your qualities. I find you a sincere person. But I as many others have these honest issues and concerns with Islam which you haven't yet answered clearly. You don't have to, but they are honest and valid concerns. I must admit I was shocked since the way this thread started out, I thought you were a Sikh asking sincere question can a Sikh engage in Namaaz as spiritual practice, and then clarifying you felt put off and excluded from Sikh community. I was quite shocked to read you are a very knowledgeable Muslim. You are aware of 1984? That is thanks to Hinduvta-You can have a look at this too You realize that 1. Hindutva is an Indian Nationalist political organization and not a religion. The word Hindu means both native land of birth and citizen of that land and culture, Bharat bhoomi, as well as Hindu religion the ancestral religion originating from Hindustan. Hindutva doesn't refer to Hindu religion as much as it refers to the political paradigm of being a loyal son of the Motherland as a political activist preserving own Hindu (cultural as well as religious) tattva. Naturally a Nationalist political organization will be defensive and protective against all threats foreign and domestic. It is NOT a spiritual sangat of sants. Often it is police and military as well as families. And then there is the general body of religious Hindus who had no political power behind the Congress Party reactions of the Indira government. As well, we can evaluate what mutual role the Sikh militant's armed insurrection provoked as violent response from the government. Honestly, in any other country in the world, a militant organization with stated aims to establish secessionist state by force of arms, is not also met with same degree of genocidal force? So, this is a political issue and has nothing to do with Hindu philosophy which is obviously written at date far earlier than the Constitution of the modern Indian state. Yet something is missing...there are no Hindu scriptures that advocate or justify the rape and murder of non-Hindus. So Hindu's behaving adharmically as goondhas for ANY political purpose must suffer the due karma and paap of their actions and answer to the Jamdhoots and Dharamraj. Last I heard a Muslim in Jihad against the infidel is rewarded with heaven for his good deed. That's the difference here. "Those who ask a sikh's caste, they are not my sikh" It is a sin for Vaishnava to ask about caste also. And all persons irrespective of birth are eligible to receive brahmana initiation. So please don't make claims about caste since it was the Vaishnav Bhaktas who initiated caste reform movement in North India, before there were Sikhs, even initiating Muslims and women as spiritual equals. "hence respect all Humans." Is it respect of humans to whitewash scriptural injunctions currently used by fanatics to mistreat them? Rather than attacking the messenger, it would have been good to hear from you about support for reform of abuses and abusive interpretations from within own Islam rather than hysterical attempts to implicate Hindus while still sitting in own pile of shit. "As for your points about these issues first of all that is not a whole religion to blame but groups and indviduals yes these are the issues coming out of haddiths and mad priests and what do we do in return we preach hatred against it." Instead of this ignorant and blind collusion seeking to deny and justify criminality within a community and not even exploring how to reform those passages which do in fact justify rape and terrorism. That kind of reform can only come from within the Muslim community. But it will never come so long as "Muslim advocates" continue to bluster aggressively and denounce as "prejudiced" and "hateful" anyone who brings awareness to these legitimate problems. By denying problems they are never solved. Do you deny these rapes and coerced conversions are occurring? UNLESS PRO-MUSLIM COMMUNITY ITSELF STARTS GIVING A DAMN AND PROTESTING THESE EGREGIOUS WRONGDOING IN NAME OF OWN RELIGION, THEY ARE GIVING TACIT APPROVAL OF THE CRIMES WHILE BLAMING THE VICTIMS AND THEIR RELIGIONS! I happen to feel that a worldwide epidemic of date rapes and relationships under false pretenses to coerce Islamic conversions is worthy of being brought to the attention of the general public since the young girls and their families at least deserve advance warning, ESPECIALLY since no one in the MUSLIM community has the DIGNITY to send the warnings themselves while strongly condemning such practices which would give people some sense of respect for them. When all these people do is justify, excuse, explain away, hide behind "interpretations" which aren't even accepted as "official" and blame and deny the problems and then attack people who protest as being anti-Muslim hate-mongers, you are GUILTY of colluding to defend criminal acts against members of another religion. Seriously stop hiding behind the "anti-Muslim" banner and do something as a Muslim to speak against these criminal and immoral activities. I would respect you so much more. Does no one give a damn about Dharma and protecting innocents from harm and indignity? That should come FIRST and FOREMOST@! (This was a cut and paste from another forum. I have written far too many of the same arguments to the same mentalities and missionaries over and over and I get tired, sorry. I'm not really angry anymore. I was when I first wrote it. But I am saddened that these abuses are still occurring and being whitewashed and denied. For Islam to truly flower as a beautiful religion and path of toleration and peace then do the simple thing, acknowledge the problems and share the "better" interpretations. You simply can't ignore injunctions to rape and kill "unbelievers.")

Well if you have a citation which contradicts that Braj is the language of Braja and has no known association to Vaishnava poets and literature, then please do share it in English for the non-Gurmukhi readers, unless of course you think I am presenting my own expert opinion by citing an external source for my evidence. And if you also agree that Braj Bhasha has no known relationship to Vaishnavism then please do share a source more credible than someone's pindu bravado of being born in India and related to Rajputs and making claim that Braj comes from Raj instead. I already said I could be persuaded with mature presentation of evidence instead of silly blustering one-upmanship. It's just irrational argumentativeness to try and negate every single thing I say because you feel you have to oppose me for not being Sikh or challenging some of the mainstream interpretations of Hindu philosophy originating from propaganda intending to erase it's credible relationship to Historical Sikhism.

But Lord Krishna is not going around raping non-Muslim desi girls. So we have intelligent concerns and problems that honestly need to be discussed and confronted, especially when the Muslim Romeo situation has involved several thousand young ladies and has also attracted international scrutiny. As for your ridiculous misrepresentations of Lord Krishna, He represents the Divine Beloved God, and all the gopis represent the individual jivas, we who are His soul-brides. But if you think interpreting that as something pornographic will help your Muslim missionary cause, then knock yourself out. The Lord Himself can't be touched. And you merely cited a prejudicial opinion piece. The young women who are deceived into sham marriages, brothels, rape and impregnation in order to coerce conversions deserve at least our honesty on the subject. I recommend you quote less abstraction and discuss the relevant issues more precisely. You could not bring yourself to discuss a single word of what I honestly brought up as concerns, yet you rushed to bash Hindu ideology as if somehow that makes Islamic position less offensive. You need logic skills class and less histrionic reactivity which tries to hide from real problems by blaming Hindu religion. TO God belongs the East and the West, Wheresoever you look is the face of God. Qur'an 2:115See this is very nice, but it doesn't address those other problematic passages now does it? And you can't swallow one without the other. Isn't this the problem? "LORD KRISHNA Lord krishna was very fond of looking at naked young girls. Once upon a time Krishna, in order to get a full view of some bathing virgin girls, went to the extent of hiding their clothes on the tree top just to get a panoramic view. Does he have divine immunity from looking at naked women? The Gita, a Holy book of the Hindus, quotes that when these bathing low caste girls begged for the return of their clothes, Lord Krishna demanded that they come out of the water with their hands raised instead of covering their bodies. Oh my innocent Hindu brethren! Can this action be attributed to god? Is this God capable of indulging in such ungodly acts? Will Hindu mothers tolerate their son imitating god Krishna?? See, that is not a scriptural quote. It is a deliberate propagandistic distortion of actual Hindu teaching in order to demonize Hindu religion. Krishna never demanded anything from "low caste girls" since He teaches the soul has no caste. And the surrender of the jivas to His irresistible charm is not sexual, it is poetically conveyed as such because there is no closer approximation to the splendor of spiritual love and merging. Krishna is called the stealer of hearts because He is representing that the primary love affair for all souls is not to anything material, not even for families, husbands, wives, but that love affair with God alone is the Supreme and most irresistible bliss. You should know, since the Vaishnava bhaktas and Bauls gave such love poetry to Sufism. But see how deeply runs true Islamic loyalty? All talk of "equality" and "respect" and "friendship" go running out the window if you address the problems of violence and rejection of other religions or mistreatment of non-Muslims in any mature and intelligent way. Well at least your true nature is finally revealed. Why don't quote what Guru Granth Sahib has to say about Babbur?

im saying that there is no vaishnav influence that is more discerning than any other influence on Gurmat. Vahiguru: V = Vishnu and Vasudeyv H = Hare Krishan G = Gobind R = Rama The influences can't be any greater than that. Sorry, but we have to agree to disagree.

Oh? And you are an authority on Braj? Do you even speak it?? Although the language of Braj was used in Royal Courts it gained it's prominence and influence by being the language of the scholarly Bhaktas and originated anciently from Mathura and Vraja, not Rajasthan. It was a scholarly language like Sanksrit and was influential language at certain period of history. But that influence was due to the literature and poetry of Vaishnav pundits. So let's not be unreasonable and make bold claims seeking to deny any connection to Vaishnavism or claim that braj comes from Raj when it is acknowledged by credible sources as coming from Vraja region. Just being Indian doesn't make you an expert on Braj. Do you have any authoritative sources to back your claim other than "you say?" Because I'm not making a claim, I'm citing the sources. it doesn't matter who came first, the chicken or the egg, was it Rajputs language first or Vaishnava Bhaktas first. You can't even erase that the prominence and influence of Braj Bhasha as a language at all had to do with it being the dialect of the famous Vaishnava poets. You're entire argument and line of reasoning is an attempt to negate that one, clear, obvious fact which is inescapable. And just being some small town pindu doesn't give you any authority, credibility or expertise in the subject of Braj language. I'm descended from Banjaras does it mean I know everything about them and you don't know anything? That's just stupid talk.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=KS8oibrCLjE "A man is permitted to take women as sex slaves outside of marriage. Note that the verse distinguishes wives from captives (those whom they right hand possesses)." ~Qur'an (4:24) and Qur'an (33:50) ----------------------------- "Abu Said al-Khudri said: "The apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur'anic verse, "And all married women (are forbidden) unto your save those (captives) whom your right hand possesses." ~Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11: Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah) Book 11, Number 2150 ----------------------------- "Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing." ~Tabari IX:113 ----------------------------- "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them." ~Excerpt Qur'an 8:012, Set 28, Count 62 ----------------------------- "...slay the idolaters wherever you find them...take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush..."~Excerpt Qur'an 9:005, Set 33, Count 91 ----------------------------- "Fight those who do not believe in Allah...nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection." ~Excerpt Qur'an 9:029, Set 38, Count 101 ----------------------------- "O Prophet! strive hard [Jihad] against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination." ~Qur'an 9:073, Set 44, Count 108 ----------------------------- "Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them)" ~Translations of the Qur'an, Chapter 24: AL-NOOR (THE LIGHT) ----------------------------- "Women comprise the majority of Hell's occupants. This is important because the only women in heaven ever mentioned by Muhammad are the virgins who serve the sexual desires of men. (A weak Hadith, Kanz al-`ummal, 22:10, even suggests that 99% of women go to Hell)." ~Bukhari (2:28) ----------------------------- "The fate of more captured farm wives, whom the Muslims distributed amongst themselves as sex slaves: "Dihyah had asked the Messenger for Safiyah when the Prophet chose her for himself... the Apostle traded for Safiyah by giving Dihyah her two cousins. The women of Khaybar were distributed among the Muslims." ~Tabari VIII:117 What does the Religion of Peace Teach About... Now I am not an Islamic scholar, but someone like myself reading these kinds of justifications from within Islam, and noting that Islamic scholars and accepted legitimate religious authorities as justifying the excesses committed against people of other religions have to take a jaundiced view of Islam and concern that the problems with the fanatics might actually be based on the teachings themselves and not only the fanatical interpretations. And that is why I call for a reform of Islamic religion in order for their to be a dialogue of peace and a repudiation of these kinds of excesses so often called Talibanic extremism or Wahabism, but in actuality are rooted in these kinds of scriptural teachings. Now the reason I can be accepting of a Muslim is not based on whether or not I personally believe Islam is right or wrong, beautiful or even evil. But we have the teaching that ANYONE who worships sincerely, even if he worships wrongly, to ghosts or ancestors, that sincere worship goes to the One God so no need to judge and condemn him. On the other hand I do condemn abuses of human persons as unacceptable whether committed by Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, atheists or whoever. But somebody's personal religion, I have no quarrel with. I also do not advocate conversions since it creates bad feelings and breaks up families. And I do think conversion to Islam from Sikhism is a disrespecting of the ancestors, but, it may be a valid path for someone who can no longer worship as a Sikh. Better for them to have some religion and praise of God than to be lost completely. Ultimately by God's grace, that person will come closer to the truth. So there is no need to convert him or compel him to believe the way that I believe. If he is sincere and tries to be good according to what we call Dharma, he is already on his way. He may not reach the pinnacle of spirituality in this life but probably neither will I, so how can I judge his spiritual state? But we can use bibek to discern good from evil, and the only thing we have to evaluate are a person's actions. So it is not judgementalism, but reasonable and right to make determinations based on what we can perceive. And for this reason, although Islam cannot be condemned, Muslims may be avoided as missionaries or fanatics who do not respect our religion. Hindu's and Sikhs believe that Muslims are worshiping God. Muslims may accept that Sikhs are worshiping God but they do not accept the Guru Sahibaan as Satguru's and Jyot of the Supreme God, and therefore reject Guru Granth Sahib, and therefore reject Sikhism. Muslims do not accept anything about Hinduism except those ways in which they can re-interpret Hinduism and try to fit Hindu philosophy into Abrahamic world-view that ultimately renounces Hindu teaching and converts to Islam by accepting Mohammed as final prophet. Sikhism and Hinduism have a philosophy that accepts Islam, but Islam cannot accept anything other than Islam. Again, we have no platform or basis for equality and mutual respect because of this. It isn't Sikhism or Hinduism which has to reform to meet Islam half-way, it is Islam that has to change itself and begin to promote tolerance for there to be true unity and peace. Because Jews do not convert or publicly condemn they have been well received and accepted in India for millennia. Islam has to be honest about evaluating why there have been problems worldwide. ye 'py anya-devatā-bhaktā yajante śraddhayānvitāḥ te 'pi mām eva kaunteya yajanty avidhi-pūrvakam Those who are devotees of other gods and who worship them with faith actually worship only Me, O son of Kuntī, but they do so in a wrong way. ahaḿ hi sarva-yajñānāḿ bhoktā ca prabhur eva ca na tu mām abhijānanti tattvenātaś cyavanti te I am the only enjoyer and master of all sacrifices. Therefore, those who do not recognize My true transcendental nature fall down. yānti deva-vratā devān pitṝn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ bhūtāni yānti bhūtejyā yānti mad-yājino 'pi mām Those who worship the demigods will take birth among the demigods; those who worship the ancestors go to the ancestors; those who worship ghosts and spirits will take birth among such beings; and those who worship Me will live with Me. patraḿ puṣpaḿ phalaḿ toyaḿ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati tad ahaḿ bhakty-upahṛtam aśnāmi prayatātmanaḥ If one offers Me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit or water, I will accept it. ~Bhagavad-Gita 9.23-26