HarjasDevi

Udasis and Nirmalay and Sevapanthis, they believe or don't believe that the Divine Supreme manifests in form of avtaray and devatay? Yes or no? Then, if you admit they do, how is my definition of sanatan different when I believe that the nirgun manifests in the sargun as well? And what is huge point of contention between the Tat Khalsa view and the sanatani view is that GOD is unborn and never incarnates, Sikhi rejects devatay and avtaray as per SGPC SRM, and Devi is just aother created form with no power. Because from what I understand all these sampraday blend in with overlap with traditional Hindu Mat and no separation. Whereas the more modern sampraday make this huge bugaboo about separation. They are also reading Vedas and Puranas and understanding the Vedantic definitions of terms and not the radical Tat Khalsa ones where Jog literally doesn't even mean Jog. So what is this profound difference in definition of the term sanatan that I have? Really, this entire conflict is not about any RSS imposition onto Sikhi but analysis of what really constituted sanatan Sikhi and how that differs from anti-sanatanism of today. The above passage doesn't even reflect how Udasi Mahants (and some Nirmalay) stored idols removed from Gurdwaray including Harimandi Sahib and put into safekeeping in 1908 when Tat Khalsas removed them. So, how is keeping of murthis so utterly different a description of the kind of definition I have of sanatan? Are the animal sacrifices in Chandi puja conduicted by Maharaja Ranjit Singh a different kind of sanatan? It's a different kind of sanatan now? Sanatan means the eternal yes, but also referring to practices and beliefs which in fact do overlap with Hindu Mat.

ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥ਕਾਨ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋਂ ॥ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋਂ ॥੪੩੪॥ मै न गनेशहि प्रिथम मनाऊं ॥ किशन बिशन कबहूं नह धिआऊं ॥कान सुने पहिचान न तिन सों ॥ लिव लागी मोरी पग इन सों ॥४३४॥ I do not adore Ganesha in the beginning and also do not mediatate on Krishna and Vishnu; I have only heard about them with my ears and I do not recognize them; my consciousness is absorbed at the feet of the Supreme Kal (the Immanent Brahman).434. ਮਹਾਕਾਲ ਰਖਵਾਰ ਹਮਾਰੋ ॥ ਮਹਾ ਲੋਹ ਮੈਂ ਕਿੰਕਰ ਥਾਰੋ ॥ ਅਪਨਾ ਜਾਨ ਕਰੋ ਰਖਵਾਰ ॥ ਬਾਹਿ ਗਹੇ ਕੀ ਲਾਜ ਬਿਚਾਰ ॥੪੩੫॥ महाकाल रखवार हमारो ॥ महा लोह मैं किंकर थारो ॥ अपना जान करो रखवार ॥ बाहि गहे की लाज बिचार ॥४३५॥ The Supreme Kal (God) is my Protector and O Steel-Purusha Lort ! I am Thy slave; Protect me, considering me as Thy own and do me the honour of catching my arm.435. ~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji p. 733 The Supreme Kal (God) is my Protector and O Steel-Purusha Lort ! Why have they added (God)? If not to de-emphasize Naam of a devata? Of course the meaning is God, but so is it the same meaning in the devata. Devata in this symbolism IS God! The Supreme Kal is my Protector and O Steel-Purusha Lord! "I do not recognize (devatay)," "but am absorbed in the Supreme KAL." And who is KAL if not Kal Bhairavi or feminine counterpart KALIKA? There is no other KAL as a NAAM of anyone else. The same ALL-STEEL, or rendered ALL-IRON is the same as the Kali of Kalijuga, the Devata of the Iron Age. She is the same sarblohi shakti of Jhatka sacrifices who is the Supreme triumph of the battlefield. But it would be interesting to analyze how this tuuk differs from the Gobind Sadhan one. So the Purusha Lord is actually meaning the devatay which the limited human mind perceived the infinite to be. So you can't be referring to the Purusha Lord as NOT being a form or devatay. And the deva form is actually the All-pervading infinite consciousness expressed, underlying, manifest within that finite form. Moreover, it is illogical to have a STEEL infinity. Obviously Steel is a finite form. So the Purusha Lord is the Divine infinite Consciousness in the form of STEEL/KAL. KALA -(Sanskrit): Time, fate, death (Yama), fate, fragment Kalim -(Sanskrit): Fight, quarrel Kali -(Sanskrit): Black, iron Kali-purusha. Personification of the kali-yuga, the evil age. The Supreme Kal is my Protector and O Steel-Purusha Lord! Another traditional view of the Kali Purusha is that of Kalki. So Purusha is meaning that which the Divine infinite has taken form, and KAL meaning that destructive power which is also protective and has the nature of being the Mother of the Universe. So the forms of KAL, as Kal Bhairava, Kalika, or Kalki are symbolizing the Supreme Lord in the violent protective aspect through the ages to right the balance by destroying wrong-doers. The rendering is problematic because look at the context of the tuuk in relation to the pauri. Whole pauri is calling the God as being the very power of the devatay, as acting through them to accomplish heroic deeds and slay the wicked. It is exclaiming that the Divine is also in His creation, and in His Mayajog. It says clearly God is the power of Bhavani, Parvati and Kartekheya/Muruga. He is Durga and Ram and Krishna. And then it says... I do not recognize ... devatay? Even as whole pauri is claiming HE IS THE DEVATAY AND ACTING THROUGH THEM AS THEIR UNDERLYING POWER? Hindu's traditionally propitiate Ganesh in the beginning, before any prayer or offering. And Vaishnavis worship Krishan-Bishan as Supreme. But the Tuuk, rather than negating devatay seems only to be saying that YOU Kalika, are the Supreme and my source of solace, which makes sense if the emphasis is on propitating Devi before a war. I'm wondering if our Gurmukhi fluent veers could kindly translate the Govind Sadhan tuuk and analyze what differences there might be in the Punjabi translation. siri-dasam-granth-sahib Because, as it stands, the Singh Sabha mainstream interpretation and translation seems oddly out of sync with the rest of the pauri. I think too much emphasis is being given to de-legitimize the sanatan symbology and importance of the Divine manifest and acting through sargun forms of devatay and avtaray. And the only purpose this would serve would be the propaganda one such as expounded from SGPC supportive websites such as Dasam Granth Totally Explained which emphasizes among other things: Condemnation of the concept in Hindu theology that God takes various incarnations Condemnation of Idol Worship The very heart of the controversy over the authenticity of the Shri Dasam Granth IS THE SANATAN SYMBOLOGY! And by down-playing certain elements or refering to particular yuuks which support the Singh Sabha anti-sanatan view, the entire Shri Dasam Granth is made to sound like a Tat Khalsa version. So it is CRITICAL for the whole Panth to know what are the controversial elements in the translation and why are there oddly out of place verses in the translation and do they or do they not match up with the version by the Udasi scholar, and why not? Does it really de-legitimize the bani if sanatan symbology is there? Does it give any ammunition to critics of the bani such as radical Tat Khalsa ideologues such as Kala Afghana and Inder Ghagga if it does? IS Sikhi less distince as a Panth if it does? See this IS THE HEART OF THE CONTROVERSY. But the real question, the true question, apart from the vested interests is: What does the bani actually say? What does it say in the Braj Bhasa and do we even know any more if out of 32 birs there were discrepancies? What does the Punjabi translation change if anything? And do the SGPC translations match with the Udasi Govind Sadhan translations? That IS an honest question. Also curious to know why it took a hundred years to develop a Punjabi translation of the bani of Tenth Master. At the heart of the controversy is the radical Tat Khalsa Singh Sabha proposition that the sanatan symbology is a contradiction to "Nanakian philosophy" which is what they term "Gurmat." It isn't literal bani of Guru Granth Sahib, but their interpretation of what Guru Sahib's philosophy is. Gurmat to the Singh Sabhas is that which must reject sanatan symbology. But this isn't really "Gurmat," It's Singh Sabha Mat which has no independant existence of it's own and exists solely to negate sanatan heritage. It is truly paranoid in it's denunciation of anything from Sikh history which has sanatan associations. But when you wipe out all the sanatan literature, what are you left with which is a historical record of Sikhs? Nothing much except some comments by Mughal historians. And that blank slate is the false history on which Singh Sabha ideology is written in denial of the obvious heritage. Then the accusation becomes, well the sanatan heritage is there BUT, the schismatics, the brahminvaadis, the corrupted Mahants took advantage of the absence of the brave Tat Khalsas fighting in jungles and put it there behind their backs...when they weren't looking. And then broad claims that the Mahants were working with British interests and that the British were responsible for all the sanatan symbology in purataan Sikh history. But an honest look at the evidence reveals a different picture. It was the British and their toadies, the sepoys who were suppressing the Indian Nationalist movement. And it was the British trying to weaken this growing nationalist movement by driving a wedge between Indian communities on the basis of caste and religion so that fighting each other and end up supporting British interests. It was the BRITISH sponsored Tat Khalsa movement which overthrew the Sanatan Singh Sabha and undermined entire sanatan heritage which existed during the time of the sanatan Sikh Raj under Maharaja Ranjit Singh. And it was this political movement of Singh Sabhias which marginalized the traditional sanatan sampradayas such as Nirmalay, Namdharay, Udasay and Nihangs. All of whom history records as being in violent opposition to the British. Can anyone tell me the reason why Shri Sarbloh Granth was kept gupt? It's more than abundantly clear what interest the British had in dividing the Sikhs from any support for "mutinous" Nationalist unity movements together with Hindu majority. But it's shocking that modern Khalsa Panth still relies on the British Chrisitian viewpoint to interpret "inferiorly and with disgust" the traditional Sanatan symbology. And it is more than critical that the modern Panth should analyze in what ways the Singh Sabha reform movement has deliberately distorted this sanatan Sikh heritage for the sole purpose of over-emphasizing a separate identity. But any editing we analyze from the Singh Sabha scholars is SIKH and not British intervention. The critical question is what exactly was done or changed and why. If this is in fact bani of the Tenth Master, and changes have been made then we are analyzing a crisis in the Panth. A crisis which would change the face of the religion. And a crisis which the highest levels of Sikh authority have suppressed. So, is this a nonsense issue? Or have there been changes? I'm not fluent enough in Gurmukhi to analyze the differences. Why don't the respected veers who are fluent analyze and compare if this one tuuk from p. 733 is different in the SPGC version from the Govind Sadhan version and kindly post it here to resolve any doubts: ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥ਕਾਨ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋਂ ॥ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋਂ ॥੪੩੪॥ मै न गनेशहि प्रिथम मनाऊं ॥ किशन बिशन कबहूं नह धिआऊं ॥कान सुने पहिचान न तिन सों ॥ लिव लागी मोरी पग इन सों ॥४३४॥ I do not adore Ganesha in the beginning and also do not mediatate on Krishna and Vishnu; I have only heard about them with my ears and I do not recognize them; my consciousness is absorbed at the feet of the Supreme Kal (the Immanent Brahman).434. ਮਹਾਕਾਲ ਰਖਵਾਰ ਹਮਾਰੋ ॥ ਮਹਾ ਲੋਹ ਮੈਂ ਕਿੰਕਰ ਥਾਰੋ ॥ ਅਪਨਾ ਜਾਨ ਕਰੋ ਰਖਵਾਰ ॥ ਬਾਹਿ ਗਹੇ ਕੀ ਲਾਜ ਬਿਚਾਰ ॥੪੩੫॥ महाकाल रखवार हमारो ॥ महा लोह मैं किंकर थारो ॥ अपना जान करो रखवार ॥ बाहि गहे की लाज बिचार ॥४३५॥ The Supreme Kal (God) is my Protector and O Steel-Purusha Lort ! I am Thy slave; Protect me, considering me as Thy own and do me the honour of catching my arm.435. ~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji p. 733 How does it read in the Govind Sadhan translation please? Anyone? As to veerji's earlier question, yes Bishan refers to Vishnu and Baisano refers to Vaishnav. Krishan-Bishan refers to the unity of the All-pervading Maha Vishnu with Krishan avatar which is a Vaishnava perspective. Whereas references to KAL and to the All-STEEL reflect more of a Shakta one which is keeping in context with other granths written of Sikh history such as Suraj Prakash and Panth Prakash taking about pimacy of Devi to the Panth and explains loose sanatan ends such as jhatka and shastar tilak in goats blood done in Hazoori Sahib, and keeping sarbloh bibek which actually are ancient Shakta practices originating with Rajput Khsttriya worship of Devi as Battle God. It comes down to interpretation of who is KAL. It can't be that the pauri is discussing AKAAL PURAKH as unborn when it is calling the same as PURUSHA LORD, meaning the one Divine who takes form, form of sword, form of steel/iron/sarbloh.

Just an off-hand remark because I don't see any real unity efforts happening any time soon, especially not when political ideologies such as expressed in the original post reflect such polarization and projected blame. What is really needed is honest self-appraisal and then calm, reasoned, wise parchaar which is secure in own Sikhi and able to embrace and bring closer to the Divine all the other more individualistic elements which may not conform with the mainstream. You know, bringing differences closer together isn't the same thing as losing your individuality. For goodness sakes, almost every Hindu person is lumped together with RSS. But how can anyone expect a Hindu to have ANY other understanding of Sikhi than a Hindu one? This paranoia is just about LOL. But Hindu's having a Hindu opinion has no power to change anyone elses. The fact is there IS overlap. And if we REALLY BELIEVE that Gurbani is a boat of mukti for the Kalyug, then how can people think it only belongs to Sikhs? It's a HUGE UNWELCOME for people who have sanatan beliefs, accusing them of being extremists out to destroy Sikhi. In fact, it's sick thinking. There's something wrong with it. We have to heal some of these projected hates and blames of the "other person" before Sikhi is ever going to be any kind of "boat of mukti" for the whole world to take refuge in. People are suffering, they have diseases, injuries, their loved ones are sick, they are lost and hurting, and if they turn towards the beautiful holy medicine of Gurbani.... they are going to be met with this, stupid political hate parchaar which blames them and makes them feel unwelcome. It is a paap to make spiritual teachings into a political football.

No problem Ji. I'm sorry to hear you are having some issue of urgency. I hope all is well with you and your family. I bow out from this thread.

lol, veer ji if Guru Sahib didn't want Sikhs to worship shastars, why then is Shastar mala in Gurbani (Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji)? I never said someone should worship Chandi, I was just explaining for information purposes because some Singh asked when he recited Chandi di Vaar to keep shastar to honor Chandi (I'm sure as representing Presence of AKAAL shakti). And for this I tried to explain that traditionally Chandi Devi does represent shastars but is known symbolically by the Sudarshana Chakra for Her victory of Light over darkness. That is all. Hindu Mat, Sikh Mat, I'm sick of hearing it really. There is only One Mat, and that is be a true spiritual person whatever your background and just love people stop dividing endlessly. When we die, this body crumbles, and so does race, sex, class, caste, pind, religion, belief, brain, everything. Atma is only Light. Light comes from Light. eventually goes back merging into Light. Let's stop now. There is some wisdom in Hindu Mat, stop having an allergy. ਅਥ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਨਾਮ ॥ अथ स्री चक्र नाम ॥ The Description of the Names of Discus ਦੋਹਰਾ ॥ दोहरा ॥ DOHRA ਕਵਚ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮੈ ਕਹੋ ਅੰਤ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਅਰਿ ਦੇਹੁ ॥ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਨਾਮ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨ ਕੇ ਜਾਨ ਚਤੁਰ ਜੀਅ ਲੇਹੁ ॥੨੮॥ कवच शबद प्रिथमै कहो अंत शबद अरि देहु ॥ सभ ही नाम क्रिपान के जान चतुर जीअ लेहु ॥२८॥ Putting the word "Kavach" in the beginning and adding the word Ar-deha at the end, the wise people know all the other names of Kripaan.28. ਸ਼ਤ੍ਰ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮੈ ਕਹੋ ਅੰਤ ਦੁਸ਼ਟ ਪਦ ਭਾਖੁ ॥ ਸਭੈ ਨਾਮ ਜਗੰਨਾਥ ਕੋ ਸਦਾ ਹ੍ਰਿਦੈ ਮੋ ਰਾਖ ॥੨੯॥ शत्र शबद प्रिथमै कहो अंत दुशट पद भाखु ॥ सभै नाम जगंनाथ को सदा ह्रिदै मो राख ॥२९॥ The word "Shatru" is uttered in the beginning and the word "Dusht" is spoken at the end and in this way all the names of Jagnnath are adopted in the heart.29. ਪ੍ਰਿਥੀ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮੈ ਭਨੋ ਪਾਲਕ ਬਹੁਰ ਉਚਾਰ ॥ ਸਕਲ ਨਾਮ ਸ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟੇਸ਼ ਕੇ ਸਦਾ ਹ੍ਰਿਦੈ ਮੋ ਧਾਰ ॥੩੦॥ प्रिथी शबद प्रिथमै भनो पालक बहुर उचार ॥ सकल नाम स्रिशटेश के सदा ह्रिदै मो धार ॥३०॥ Saying the word "Prithvi" in the beginning and then uttering the word "Paalak" all the Names of the Lord are stuffed in the mind.30. ਸ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟ ਨਾਮ ਪਹਿਲੇ ਕਹੋ ਬਹੁਰ ਉਚਾਰੋ ਨਾਥ ॥ ਸਕਲ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਮ ਈਸ ਕੇ ਸਦਾ ਬਸੋ ਜੀਅ ਸਾਥ ॥੩੧॥ स्रिशट नाम पहिले कहो बहुर उचारो नाथ ॥ सकल नामु मम ईस के सदा बसो जीअ साथ ॥३१॥ Uttering the word "Sarishti" in the beginning and then the word "Nath", all the Names of the Lord are adopted in the heart.31. ਸਿੰਘ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਭਾਖੋ ਪ੍ਰਖਮ ਬਾਹਨ ਬਹੁਰ ਉਚਾਰਿ ॥ ਸਭੈ ਨਾਮ ਜਗਮਾਤ ਕੇ ਲੀਜਹੁ ਸੁ ਕਬਿ ਸੁਧਾਰਿ ॥੩੨॥ सिंघ शबद भाखो प्रखम बाहन बहुर उचारि ॥ सभै नाम जगमात के लीजहु सु कबि सुधारि ॥३२॥ Uttering the word "Sarishti" in the beginning and then the word "Vahan", the poets may in this way say all the Names of Durga, the mother of the world.32. ਰਿਪੁ ਖੰਡਨ ਮੰਡਨ ਜਗਤ ਖਲ ਖੰਡਨ ਜਗ ਮਾਹਿ ॥ ਤਾ ਕੋ ਨਾਮ ਉਚਾਰੀਐ ਜਿਹ ਸੁਨ ਦੁਖ ਟਰਿ ਜਾਹਿ ॥੩੩॥ रिपु खंडन मंडन जगत खल खंडन जग माहि ॥ ता को नाम उचारीऐ जिह सुन दुख टरि जाहि ॥३३॥ That Lord is the destroyer of he enemies, Creator of the world and also the Vanquisher of the foolish people in this world. His Name should be remembered, by hearing which all the suffering come to an end.33. ਸਭ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰਨ ਕੇ ਨਾਮ ਕਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਅੰਤ ਪਤਿ ਭਾਖੁ ॥ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਨਾਮ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨ ਕੇ ਜਾਣ ਹ੍ਰਿਦੈ ਮਹਿ ਰਾਖੁ ॥੩੪॥ सभ शसत्रन के नाम कहि प्रिथम अंत पति भाखु ॥ सभ ही नाम क्रिपान के जाण ह्रिदै महि राखु ॥३४॥ Uttering the names of all the weapons, and saying the word "Pati" in the beginning and at the end, all the names of Kripaan are adopted in the heart.34. ਖੱਤ੍ਰਿਯਾਂ ਕੈ ਖੇਲਤ ਖੜਗ ਖਗ ਖੰਡੋ ਖੱਤ੍ਰਿਆਰ ॥ ਖੇਲਾਂਤਕ ਖਲ ਕੇ ਮਰੀ ਅਸਿ ਕੇ ਨਾਮ ਬਿਚਾਰ ॥੩੫॥ ख्त्रियां कै खेलत खड़ग खग खंडो ख्त्रिआर ॥ खेलांतक खल के मरी असि के नाम बिचार ॥३५॥ It plays in the limb of Kshatriyas; it is called Kharag, Khanda or the enemy of Kshatriyas; it brings the end of war; it is the destroyer of hides; these are thoughtfully spoken names of the sword.35. ਭੂਤਾਂਤਕ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਗਵਤੀ ਭਵਹਾ ਨਾਮ ਬਖਾਨ ॥ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਵਾਨੀ ਭੈ ਹਰਨ ਸਭ ਕੋ ਕਰੌ ਕਲਯਾਨ ॥੬॥ भूतांतक स्री भगवती भवहा नाम बखान ॥ स्री भवानी भै हरन सभ को करौ कलयान ॥६॥ It is described as the goddess bringing the end of all elements and the destroyer of all the sufferings; O the sword-Bhavani (goddess) ! You are the destroyer of fear; bring the happiness to all.36. ~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji (SGPC translation) pp. 1359-1360 ਕਾਲ ਤੁਹੀ ਕਾਲੀ ਤੁਹੀ ਤੁਹੀ ਤੇਗ ਅਰੁ ਤੀਰ ॥ ਤੁਹੀ ਨਿਸ਼ਾਨੀ ਜੀਤ ਕੀ ਆਜੁ ਤੁਹੀ ਜਗਬੀਰ ॥੫॥ काल तुही काली तुही तुही तेग अरु तीर ॥ तुही निशानी जीत की आजु तुही जगबीर ॥५॥ Thou art the KAL (death), thou art the goddess Kali, Thou art the saber and arrow, Thou art the sign of victory today and Thou art the Hero of the world.5. ਤੁਹੀ ਸੂਲ ਸੈਹਥੀ ਤਬਰ ਤੂੰ ਨਿਖੰਗ ਅਰੁ ਬਾਨ ॥ ਤੁਹੀ ਕਟਾਰੀ ਸੇਲ ਸਭ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਕਰਦ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨ ॥੬॥ तुही सूल सैहथी तबर तूं निखंग अरु बान ॥ तुही कटारी सेल सभ तुमही करद क्रिपान ॥६॥ Thou art the Sool (spike), Saihathi and Tabar (hatched), Thou art the Nikhang and Baan (arrow), Thou art the Kataari, Sel, and all and Thou art the Kard (knife), and Kripaan (sword).6. ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਅਸਤ੍ਰ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਸਿਪਰ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਕਵਚ ਨਿਖੰਗ ॥ ਕਵਚਾਂਤਕ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਬਨੇ ਤੁਮ ਬਯਾਪਕ ਸਰਬੰਗ ॥੭॥ शसत्र असत्र तुमही सिपर तुमही कवच निखंग ॥ कवचांतक तुमही बने तुम बयापक सरबंग ॥७॥ Thou art the arms and weapons, Thou art the Nikhang (quiver), and the Kavach (armour); Thou art the destroyer of the armours and Thou art also all pervading.7. ਸ੍ਰੀ ਤੂੰ ਸਭ ਕਾਰਨ ਤੁਹੀ ਤੂੰ ਬਿੱਦਯਾ ਕੋ ਸਾਰ ॥ ਤੁਮ ਸਭ ਕੋ ਉਪਰਾਜਹੀ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਲੇਹੁ ਉਬਾਰ ॥੮॥ स्री तूं सभ कारन तुही तूं बि्दया को सार ॥ तुम सभ को उपराजही तुमही लेहु उबार ॥८॥ Thou art the cause of peace and prosperity and the essence of learning; Thou art the creator of all and the redeemer of all.8. ਤੁਮਹੀ ਦਿਨ ਰਜਨੀ ਤੁਹੀ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਜੀਅਨ ਉਪਾਇ ॥ ਕਉਤਕ ਹੇਰਨ ਕੇ ਨਮਿਤ ਤਿਨ ਮੋ ਬਾਦ ਬਢਾਇ ॥੯॥ तुमही दिन रजनी तुही तुमही जीअन उपाइ ॥ कउतक हेरन के नमित तिन मो बाद बढाइ ॥९॥ Thou art the day and night and Thou art the creator of all the Jivas (beings), causing disputes among them; Thou does all this in order to view Thy own sport.9. ਅਸ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨ ਖੰਡੋ ਖੜਗ ਸੈਫ ਤੇਗ ਤਰਵਾਰ ॥ ਰੱਛ ਕਰੋ ਹਮਰੀ ਸਦਾ ਕਵਚਾਂਤਕ ਕਰਵਾਰ ॥੧੦॥ अस क्रिपान खंडो खड़ग सैफ तेग तरवार ॥ ्रछ करो हमरी सदा कवचांतक करवार ॥१०॥ O Lord ! Protect us by smashing the armour with the blows of Thy hands with the help of As, Kripaan (sword), Khanda, Kharag, Saif, Tegh, and Talwaar (sword).10. ਤੁਹੀ ਕਟਾਰੀ ਦਾੜ੍ਹ ਜਮ ਤੂੰ ਬਿਛੂਓ ਅਰੁ ਬਾਨ ॥ ਤੋ ਪਤਿ ਪਦ ਜੇ ਲੀਜੀਐ ਰੱਛ ਦਾਸ ਮੁਹਿ ਜਾਨੁ ॥੧੧॥ तुही कटारी दाड़्ह जम तूं बिछूओ अरु बान ॥ तो पति पद जे लीजीऐ ्रछ दास मुहि जानु ॥११॥ Thou art Kataari, Jamdaadh, Bichhuaa and Baan, O power ! I am a serf of Thy Lord`s feet, kindly Protect me.11. ਬਾਂਕ ਬੱਜ੍ਰ ਬਿਛੂਓ ਤੁਹੀ ਤਬਰ ਤਰਵਾਰ ॥ ਤੁਹੀ ਕਟਾਰੀ ਸੈਹਥੀ ਕਰੀਐ ਰੱਛ ਹਮਾਰ ॥੧੨॥ बांक ब्ज्र बिछूओ तुही तबर तरवार ॥ तुही कटारी सैहथी करीऐ ्रछ हमार ॥१२॥ Thou art Baank, bajar, Bichhuaa, Tabar, and Talwaar, Thou art the kataari, and Saihathi; Protect me.12. ਤੁਮੀ ਗੁਰਜ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਗਦਾ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਤੀਰ ਤੁਫੰਗ ॥ ਦਾਸ ਜਾਨ ਮੋਰੀ ਸਦਾ ਰੱਛਾ ਕਰੋ ਸਰਬੰਗ ॥੧੩॥ तुमी गुरज तुमही गदा तुमही तीर तुफंग ॥ दास जान मोरी सदा ्रछा करो सरबंग ॥१३॥ Thou art Gurj, Gadaa (mace), Teer (arrow) and Tufang; protect me ever considering me as Thy slave.13. ਛੁਰੀ ਕਲਮ ਰਿਪ ਕਰਦ ਭਨਿ ਖੰਜਰ ਬੁਗਦਾ ਨਾਇ ॥ ਅਰਧ ਰਿਜਕ ਸਭ ਜਗਤ ਕੋ ਮੁਹਿ ਤੁਮ ਲੇਹੁ ਬਚਾਇ ॥੧੪॥ छुरी कलम रिप करद भनि खंजर बुगदा नाइ ॥ अरध रिजक सभ जगत को मुहि तुम लेहु बचाइ ॥१४॥ Thou art the Chhurri, the enemy-killing karad and the Khanjar (dagger) are Thy names; Thou art the adorable Power of the world, kindly protect me.14. ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਉਪਾਵਹੁ ਜਗਤ ਤੁਮ ਤੁਮਹੀਂ ਪੰਥ ਬਨਾਇ ॥ ਆਪ ਤੁਹੀ ਝਗਰਾ ਕਰੋ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਕਰੋ ਸਹਾਇ ॥੧੫॥ प्रिथम उपावहु जगत तुम तुमहीं पंथ बनाइ ॥ आप तुही झगरा करो तुमही करो सहाइ ॥१५॥ Firstly Thou createst the world, and then the Paths; then Thou crreatest the disputes and also help them.15. ਮੱਛ ਕੱਛ ਬਾਰਾਹ ਤੁਮ ਤੁਮ ਬਾਵਨ ਅਵਤਾਰ ॥ ਨਾਰ ਸਿੰਘ ਬਉਧਾ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਜਗਤ ਕੋ ਸਾਰ ॥੧੬॥ म्छ क्छ बाराह तुम तुम बावन अवतार ॥ नार सिंघ बउधा तुहीं तुहीं जगत को सार ॥१६॥ Thou art Machh (fish incarnation), Kachh (tortoise incarnation) and Varaha (the boar incarnation); Thou art also the Dwarf incarnation; Thou art also narsingh and Buddha and Thou art the Essence of the whole world.16. ਤੁਹੀਂ ਰਾਮ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਤੁਮ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕੋ ਰੂਪ ॥ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਪ੍ਰਜਾ ਸਭ ਜਗਤ ਕੀ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਭੂਪ ॥੧੭॥ तुहीं राम स्री क्रिशन तुम तुहीं बिशन को रूप ॥ तुहीं प्रजा सभ जगत की तुहीं आप ही भूप ॥१७॥ Thou art Rama, Krishna and Vishnu; Thou art the subjects of the whole world and Thou art also the Sovereign.17. ਤੁਹੀਂ ਬਿਪ੍ਰ ਛਤ੍ਰੀ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਰੰਕ ਅਰੁ ਰਾਉ ॥ ਸ਼ਾਮ ਦਾਮ ਅਰੁ ਡੰਡ ਤੂੰ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਭੇਦ ਉਪਾਉ ॥੧੮॥ तुहीं बिप्र छत्री तुहीं तुहीं रंक अरु राउ ॥ शाम दाम अरु डंड तूं तुमही भेद उपाउ ॥१८॥ Thou art the Brahmin, Kshatriya, the king and the poor; Thou art also Sama, Sama, Dand and Bhed and also other remedies.18. ~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji pp. 1357-1358 Personally, Sikhs are just going to have to accept that people coming from Hindu Mat or a sanatan background cannot but read Gurbani as also sharing the same fundamental TRUTH. Purataan Singhs have ALWAYS worshipped AKAAL PURAKH (niragun AND sargun) in SHASTARS.

I was drinking chai and you made me laugh and spill. RSS can't even win an election. How can they be responsible for every bad thing that happens in the Panth? Petty politics of Punjab isn't even interesting. I think WHOEVER can bring economic growth and industry while curbing farmer suicides, bankruptcies, drug and HIV scourge will be a welcome leader REGARDLESS his political party or religion. And do you think in your wildest imagination that all these unrul Khalistani guys are going to meekly and silently "merge into Hinduism?" Haha, they can't even accept NAAMS of God in Gurbani that say Jaganatha, Gopala, Govinda as being anything but kritam. You have nothing to worry about as far as disunity is concerned, it will last at least another hundred years. But it's a shame that wisely mature spiritual people can't unite on the unity of authentically spiritual principles and teachings and instead define the world in terms of politics and self-interest. Sikh political groups, in my opinion are the death of authentic Gursikhi. Be politically active, sure. But to define religion along corruptible political agendas is a shame. To endlessly separate human beings on the basis of religious and political affiliation is just another form of caste discrimination. In fact, that together with wealth or absence of wealth IS the modern caste system. And people divided are nothing but a spiritual disharmony. Just love people. Love them as they are and where they are at and try to give them a blessing to encourage them to be and do better.

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਦੀਖਿਆ ਲੀਨੀ ॥ sathigur dhaekhiaa dheekhiaa leenee || Beholding the True Guru, I have received His Teachings. ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਅਰਪਿਓ ਅੰਤਰ ਗਤਿ ਕੀਨੀ ॥ man than arapiou anthar gath keenee || I have offered my mind and body, after searching deep within my own being. ਗਤਿ ਮਿਤਿ ਪਾਈ ਆਤਮੁ ਚੀਨੀ ॥੪॥ gath mith paaee aatham cheenee ||4|| I have come to realize the value of understanding my own soul. ~SGGS Ji ang 227 Gurbani actually teaches the necessity of Dheekya or Dheeksha. In the first instance, you cannot have a Guru-disciple relationship without having been formally accepted by the Guru. Diksha/initiation is that formal acceptance. In the traditional sanatan teaching, the Guru is united with God/Parabrahm and is the only person who has the power to open your inner chakras, cleanse your vikaars and wash your karmas, and by His grace give you an experience of Divine Darshan. So a Guru is indispensible for ever obtaining mukti, let alone becoming an authentically spiritual person. Diksha gives you the grace of Guru to empower the practices which He prescribes which will lead you to ultimate liberation/mukt. Without the Guru's acceptance of you as a chela, you have no bond, no formal discipline owed to the Guru. You are your own master and can do whatever you want. Once you become a chela, you dedicate yourself to the Spiritual Master. You surrender your head, throw your ego down which is the meaning of the term "prapatti." Without this, you cannot be considered a chela/shishya/disciple/sikh. ਤੂੰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਹਉ ਨਉਤਨੁ ਚੇਲਾ ॥ thoon sathigur ho nouthan chaelaa || You are the True Guru, and I am Your new disciple. ~SGGS Ji ang 324 ਪ੍ਰਣਵਤਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਅਗਮੁ ਸੁਣਾਏ ॥ pranavath naanak agam sunaaeae || Prays Nanak, I share the mysterious secrets of God. ਗੁਰ ਚੇਲੇ ਕੀ ਸੰਧਿ ਮਿਲਾਏ ॥ gur chaelae kee sandhh milaaeae || The Guru and His disciple are joined together! ਦੀਖਿਆ ਦਾਰੂ ਭੋਜਨੁ ਖਾਇ ॥ dheekhiaa dhaaroo bhojan khaae || One who eats this food, this medicine of the Teachings, ਛਿਅ ਦਰਸਨ ਕੀ ਸੋਝੀ ਪਾਇ ॥੪॥੫॥ shhia dharasan kee sojhee paae ||4||5|| has the wisdom of the six Shaastras. ~SGGS Ji ang 877-878 Now it is true that different people are at different states of spiritual readiness. Some very non-religious people also happen to be very spiritual, even if they never have a formal initiation. And this is a result of their past-life karma, the blessings they have earned. Other people are of very low caliber, entirely sinful nature and disposition. But being possessed of honest self-appraisal, surrender themselves at the mercy and feet of a true Guru. And they become disciples trailing the stink clouds of their own vasanas, lol. I am in this category. ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਏ ਰੰਗ ਸਿਉ ਹਉ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਉ ॥ gur naam dhrirraaeae rang sio ho sathigur kai bal jaao || The Guru has lovingly implanted the Naam, the Name of the Lord, within me; I am a sacrifice to the True Guru. ~SGGS Ji ang 40 ਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਪਾਇਆ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਹਰਿ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਦੀਆ ਮਨੁ ਠਾਢੇ ॥੧॥ gur pooraa paaeiaa vaddabhaagee har manthra dheeaa man thaadtae ||1|| I have found the Perfect Guru, through great goodfortune; He has given me the Mantra of the Lord's Name, and my mind hasbecome quiet and tranquil. ~SGGS Ji ang 171 Remember, to become a disciple is a Divine Grace and a merit of karma. But we still carry the imprint of our karma in this sansaar. The disciple doesn't become instantly holy or realized simply to be accepted for diksha. He only takes refuge at the Gur charan. The sadhana/spiritual discipline practices over time are what will change you. Because they are your Divine link to the Guru, once you accept Him, Guru becomes fused to your very atma. And it is job of the Guru to reveal to you your True identity, which is God Himself. But the process of surrender, obedience to discipline and sacrifice are to bring about the death of the ego, the false self. this is why the teaching, to become dust of the feet of the holy is so great, because any opportunity to submit the ego in remembrance of the God is a death-blow to the ego. ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਜਾਗੇ ਦੁਰਮਤਿ ਪਰਹਾਰੀ ॥ guramath jaagae dhuramath parehaaree || Awakening to the Guru's Teachings, evil-mindedness is taken away. ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਜਾਗਿ ਰਹੇ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਈ ॥ anadhin jaag rehae liv laaee || Remaining awake and aware night and day, lovingly focused on the Lord, ਜੀਵਨ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਗਤਿ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਪਾਈ ॥੪॥ jeevan mukath gath anthar paaee ||4|| one becomes Jivan Mukta - liberated while yet alive. He finds this state deep within himself. ~SGGS Ji ang 904 One of the spiritual traps is to become enamored of the religious identity of the false self and behave in egoistic, arrogant and hateful ways with the pretended holy self-image. That is why so much of Gurbani is exposing and correcting the fake saddhs and hypocritical yogis and arrogant brahmins. But it is only through surrender of the impurities of our own avidya and darkness that the Divine Light can shine through us and bring peace and healing to our souls and to this world. Humility and the obedience of surrender are the tools which open the channel of grace for Guru to operate and actually change us. ਮਨੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਗੁਰ ਆਪਣੇ ਪਾਈਐ ਸਰਬ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥ man dheejai gur aapanae paaeeai sarab piaar || Surrendering our minds to our Guru, we find universal love. ~SGGS Ji ang 59 One thing that is confusing is that the initiation in Gurbani has been charan pahul, foot wash of Guru Sahib. But Guru Gobind Singh Ji changed it to Khande Ki Pahul, called as amrit. But this is not the same amrit-nectar which falls into the throat when the agni chakr is stimulated and opening the dasam duaara/sahasrara chakr. But initiation is absolutely critical if the actual spiritual amrit-nectar is ever to be chakked, because these chakrs will only open by Guru's grace, and occurs naturally/sehaja, without our efforts or doing. Initiation is giving the Guru PERMISSION to discipline you and pull weeds out of your garden and giving the PROMISE to cooperate with grace. Whatever you feed, is what will survive. So don't feed the fake ego, or you will only harden your inner cruelties and become another brutal man in a suffering world trailing only anger and suffering, fear and condemnation. And that is not the Divine Light. But if that hard shell dies, something beautiful will shine in it's place. And that inner shining is the Kutashtha Caitanya. The jeev-ego-atman has the appearance of a fake self, but in no way does it have the pure, high and noble qualities of the Divine Light which it is poorly reflecting no matter how hard it tries. It is only a shadow self, part of the dream consciousness, destined to fade and pass away. And that desperate self-clinging to what is transient is an aspect of suffering. You cannot have any concept of ecstacy when your underlying subconsciousness is in a permanent state of anxiety about death and loss and fears of subordination of the ego. And you will project outwards into the manifest world your deepest held beliefs and understandings, because that is what you act on. That is your hidden motivator that you have no control of. If you believe sincerely in fighting for your place in this world, welcome to the club. Just realize you're bringing all your greed and anger with you to achieve it. According to the Upanishads there are 3 gates which bring hell into this world: 1. I want, greed, therefore 2. I take, anger/force, and because the ugly blemish is disgraceful to my pride 3. I justify myself/delusion. But when you can truly have the courage to surrender and willingness to become debased and the dust of the feet of all, then the fighting stops, the war against all the injustices you perceive as you against the world stops, and Divine grace can flow. And this Divine grace is bringing peace and joy and lightness of being because it free's you from the burden of carrying the ego identity around all the time. You can lay the weight of it down along with it's incessant suffering. Surrender is peace. The Guru is who you give your surrender to. In the Guru's face is the face of the whole world. Because the One God is not different from His creation, but is all-pervading. When you became das, a servant of the Guru, you become a servant of humanity. This sansaar is the field for you to plant and harvest the Divine qualities. Here is your priceless opportunity to become a sevadar bringing heaven down to earth for suffering people. ਹਉਮੈ ਬੰਧਨ ਬੰਧਿ ਭਵਾਵੈ ॥ houmai bandhhan bandhh bhavaavai || Egotism binds people in bondage, and causes them to wander around lost. ਨਾਨਕ ਰਾਮ ਭਗਤਿ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਵੈ ॥੮॥੧੩॥ naanak raam bhagath sukh paavai ||8||13|| O Nanak, peace is obtained through devotional worship of the Lord. ~SGGS Ji ang 227 ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਾਗਿ ਰਹੇ ਅਉਧੂਤਾ ॥ guramukh jaag rehae aoudhhoothaa || As Gurmukh, I remain awake and aware, unattached. ਸਦ ਬੈਰਾਗੀ ਤਤੁ ਪਰੋਤਾ ॥ sadh bairaagee thath parothaa || Forever detached, I am woven into the essence of reality. ਜਗੁ ਸੂਤਾ ਮਰਿ ਆਵੈ ਜਾਇ ॥ jag soothaa mar aavai jaae || The world is asleep; it dies, and comes and goes in reincarnation. ਬਿਨੁ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦ ਨ ਸੋਝੀ ਪਾਇ ॥੬॥ bin gur sabadh n sojhee paae ||6|| Without the Word of the Guru's Shabad, it does not understand. ਅਨਹਦ ਸਬਦੁ ਵਜੈ ਦਿਨੁ ਰਾਤੀ ॥ anehadh sabadh vajai dhin raathee || The unstruck sound current of the Shabad vibrates day and night. ਅਵਿਗਤ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਾਤੀ ॥ avigath kee gath guramukh jaathee || The Gurmukh knows the state of the eternal, unchanging Lord God. ਤਉ ਜਾਨੀ ਜਾ ਸਬਦਿ ਪਛਾਨੀ ॥ tho jaanee jaa sabadh pashhaanee || When someone realizes the Shabad, then he truly knows. ਏਕੋ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਨਿਰਬਾਨੀ ॥੭॥ eaeko rav rehiaa nirabaanee ||7|| The One Lord is permeating and pervading everywhere in Nirvaanaa. ~SGGS Ji ang 904 You can hardly be unloving and unkind, even if you are called upon and needed to be a protective force, because the Gurmukh is a true mystic who is having a love affair with the Divine Beloved who in turn is dancing in the hearts of every living being. So the Gurmukh becomes attuned to a deeper reality than the narrow, ego-based bondage of the body-cage and the world-toys of dominance of triviality and empty trifles clutched at through cruelty. Spiritual practice when united by grace to a true Guru should give us the one blessing we all should learn well, and that is the art of dying to the world and coming alive to Divine Reality, which is Sat * Chit * Ananda. Truth, Mercy, Joy unending.

For informational purposes only and submitted respectfully, I would like to clarify due to this response: Shree Chakra Yantra symbol of Chandi/Durga This is a misunderstanding of Hindu Mat as being actually representative of distortion. Whereas those foolish persons who actually misunderstand Divine Reality may indeed mistake the ritual for the relationship, the symbol for the reality. Hindu Mat believes in the ultimate Reality of only One God. That Oneness is manifest in this sansaar in multiple forms because of the veil of Mayayog and duality consciousness. So it is actually not correct to say that a Hindu worships triangles (and stones) whereas a Sikh worships the reality. Rather you are misunderstanding yantra as visual expression of mathematical symmetry and representing deeper teachings which are beyond conscious comprehension. The Chandi yantra, for example isn't Chandi. So no one would worship the symbolism while ignoring the Divine Reality represented. Chandi yantra is Shri Chakra yantra, and in this symbolism is triangular shapes encircled by a chakra. Everything has a deep yogic symbolism, but no one believes that God or His powers are mere triangular shapes. Those shapes are to focus the surti on so that the symbolic meaning sinks deep into the unconscious level of awareness, taking you beyond the mere superficiality of the visual representation of, say a murthi. Remember also that every word we speak and think with is also a symbolic representation, and a barrier to the True inner Reality of perceptual experience which is what every sadhaka is seeking. Now, I am not saying that a Sikh needs this practice. I'm simply trying to clarify gross misinformation about Hindu Mat which in the sanatan tradition actually does share teachings which overlap with traditional Sikhi. Chandi arose out of the shakti's of all the devatay in order to combat the demons. That is Her origin. among the many weapons She wields, one is the King of Weapons, and that is Sudarshana Chakra. Only Vishnu, Krishna and Shiva-Devi can wield the Sudarshana Chakra. It is in the scriptures, made of razor light. It pierces the heart of darkness in the world and exposes and destroys sin. That is it's symbolic representation. If someone is concentrating on Shri Chakra for sadhana purposes, it isn't to think about triangles. It is to place consciousness of the Light of God which is a Holy weapon to destroy evil, most especially our own paap. That is why the shakti of Durga/Chandi, who is Kalika comes with the demons head in hand. Because the symbolic meaning is that we ourselves are a sacrifice and must surrender our own egos, our own jeev, our own limited identity before we can merge with the Divine Totality which is Oneness. One must understand that Devi as the feminine aspect of Shivani is actually the Maha Guru of the whole world, cleansing darkness by force to lead us to Light. But one must first become inwardly purified of the defilements of disturbances of conscious thought (vrittis and vasanas) which create the illusion of our separation from Divine Wholeness (God) before one can wield Chandi's chakra, which is the power of God Himself in weapon form. And the power to conquer the inner defilements of vrittis/thoughts and vasanas/inclinations is to wash the mind at the inward place of pilgrimage, the Triveni, the confluence of the three rivers. The tantric Chinnamasta Devi is represented as sacrificing Her own head, out of Her neck flows three rivulets of blood representing the Ida, pingala and shushmana nadis which can only be accessed by surrender which is the root meaning of the world, simran, from simarana, literal remembrance of True Identity which comes about by becoming "other" directed and turning the consciousness away from ego to the God. Nama Smarana is thus a key practice of bhakti. Worship of Shri Chakra is the highest worship of Devi because it is worship of the True Reality that Devi represents, which is the Divine power of God in weapon form. It is the same weapon/Divine Light to kill our panj bhutas as is used to cleanse the world of evil in defense of Dharma. And thereby bring about the transformation to make a sant-sipahi. Dhan Dhan Sant-Sipahi Shaheed Akali Nihang Singh Baba Deep Singh Ji Khalsa who is ever-living example of the Divine Truth.

Jaikaara writes: Just for information purposes, Shri Chakra is the symbol of Chandi. Whereas the Khanda represents Kalika. Parashakti is shown holding the power of Mahavishnu to represent the force of righteousness which destroys evil in the form of Sudarshana Chakr. ਕੋਪ ਭਈ ਅਰਿ ਦਲ ਬਿਖੈ ਚੰਡੀ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਸੰਭਾਰ ॥ कोप भई अरि दल बिखै चंडी चक्र स्मभार ॥ Chandi in great anger, holding up her disc, within the enemy`s army; ਏਕ ਮਾਰਿ ਕੈ ਦ੍ਵੈ ਕੀਏ ਦ੍ਵੈ ਤੇ ਕੀਨੇ ਚਾਰ ॥੪੨॥ एक मारि कै द्वै कीए द्वै ते कीने चार ॥४२॥ She cut off the warriors into halves and quarters. ~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji (SGPC translation) p. 186

You don't have the right to tell me to get lost from an open forum Ji. Moreover, it is a forum which includes Sikh, sanatan as well as mainstream sampraday sections, Hindu, Christian and Muslim sections. So on what basis exactly do you decide I have no right to express an opinion here? I won't debate with you your definition of what is a Sikh or not. I consider Shri Guru Granth Sahib to be my root Guru Maharaaj even as I have accepted a dedhari Gurudev. But my Sikhi or paapi or however you take it isn't at issue here. And I have every right to join in discussion without derailing attacks that invalidate me as a person for having an opinion. We don't have all the public facts as the trial isn't even on-going. What we have are RUMORS attempting to justify the killing and the insane way it was carried out in a public place of worship in front of the Guru Granth Sahib and injuring members of the sangat. And this unfortunate event led to the problems of portion of Ravidasia Panth to split from Sikh Panth. That IS the topic. Akal Takhat has formally denounced the shooting. So how can you insist that "peaceful means have been tried?" Peaceful means have been tried, and so now some self-righteous thugs feel justified to wage war on Ravidasi sangat? The fact pattern is just outrageous. Now, your illogical comment here: Hindu's like YOU expect US Sikhs.... What has that to do with Ravidasi issue Jio? Oh wait.... expect US Sikhs to constantly use peaceful methods as it prolongs YOUR pathetic existence... So now you would swagger about like a bold killer of Hindu people, is that it? Is that the degree of your insanity? Why are you saying the precious human life is pathetic? 1. According to Akal Takhat mainstream, Ravidasias are SIKHS not Hindus. 2. I would expect Sikhs as shishyas of Righteous Dharam which Guru Sahibaan defended to uphold righteousness and not anonymous "hit squads" who may or may not have "used every means" prior to the assassination. As it has been reported in papers that the police received reports of "Death threats" against the babas. And Death Threats are hardly "using every means." Rather it seems resorting to thugism in the first instance. 3. Why are you threatening Hindu's lives over this incident now? What have the Hindu's done exactly that you feel so confident before God to make such a claim like a death threat? What did I personally do to someone like you jio? What was the wrong doing before you just to the thug-bit in the first instance and proclaim my life a pathetic existance which PEACEFUL METHODS only PROLONG? You talk like a killer, not like a Sikh. Are you a Sikh or a killer veer ji? You don't have the right to tell me where to go. You don't have the right to make personal and public judgments of me. We are discussing the Ravidasia topic as it relates to this thread on the forum. I'm perfectly calm. How can you claim all this political evil of Hindus and Indian government as being some irrational factor in the Ravidasi baba shooting, and then claim you don't hate Hindu's and HIndustan? How can you lose control of your words and be so reckless and to repudiate peaceful means as merely prolonging pathetic Hindu existance and expect anyone to believe you when you say you don't hate Hindus? Now you are calling my position as a sanatan Sikh as non-Sikh, and a mental illness, a pathetic existance that doesn't deserve peaceful means, and a disease that needs to be quarantined. And you are calling me hysterical. WHY are you so hysterically afraid of my opinions? WHY do you seem so terribly threatened by my existence as to compare it with a disease that needs to be quarantined without right of peaceful means?

You are a liar. Below is the mentality I was objecting to, claiming the shooting death was justifiable on grounds of beadbi EVEN while done in Gurdwara with families and children and same as calling the shooters as "baghats/bhaktas." So your statement that no Sikh is defending is not the truth. Your whole political argument about Indian politics and 1984 is off the beam and no justification for shooting Ravidasi baba who, according to Akal Takhat own statement, Ravidasis are historical part of Sikhs. So we aren't even talking Hindu versus Sikh. What are YOU talking about then? Why aren't you talking about the topic which was Ravidasi Dharm and their response to the shooting? And I repeat my point, how can you expect Ballan sangat to act any differently then to split from Sikh Panth when publically on every Sikh forum is blindly praising the killers...in the absence of all the facts? THIS is how to promote Panthic Ekta? They're bodyguards. It's their job to defend the life of their charge. Is it the job of Sikhs to go into Ravidasi temples and shoot up the sangat? Is this what using force when all means have failed means? I mean, seriously, not to advocate that assassination was valid, but couldn't even have been done in private not to jeopardize anybody else? Who in right mind can defend this? And how in hell can 1984 politics of government of India be blamed for it? And point about Indira Gandhi's family not even being Hindu is critical to the accusations that she acted against Sikhs as a rebid Hindu fanatic. If her own husband was Muslim, and her sons were married to a Sikh and a Christian, and all Priyanka and Rahul Gandhi are married to Christians it says something very loud and clear about Indira Gandhi's motives and loyalties not being to radical Hindu contingent. She was motivated by power politics. So you should all stop blaming Hindus and justifying acts of violence against traditional Sikhs who blend sanatan practices with Sikhi. Because that IS what this is about. That IS why videos justify Sant Ramanand of Ballan's death blamed on placing tilak on Shri Guru Granth Sahib and acting as traditional sant baba. So Sikhs obviously do care and are promoting and defending it all over the internet. Stop lying. You're not even convincing. Just look at the degree of hate and intolerance on this forum for anything sanatan. Bhagats of God don't kill unarmed old men and pretend it's "defense" of religion. That really is what this is about isn't it? Hatred of Hindustan and anything remotely associated with Hindu. Else why aren't you discussing WHY the Ravidasis would be upset with Sikhi Panth in the first place over this killing? Why aren't you acknowledging that Ravidasis are part of Sikh Dharam? Are you saying Akal Takhat should now add assassinations to excommunications as list of punishments? Since Akal Takhat has even condemned the Vienna shooting, then some Sikhs acted outside the scope of mainstream Sikhi. And then that act should be condemned by mainstream Sikhs. So why condemn me for condemning it? You don't even make any sense. "Guru Shri Ravidas was highly respectable in Sikhcommunity and the Sikh community has high esteem for thefollowers of Shri Guru Ravidas as they are inseparable part ofSikh fold," SGPC president Avtar Singh Makkar told reportershere."Ravidassia community part of Sikh faith: SGPC

Sanatan means eternal. It refers to the eternal Dharm and spiritual Truth which is underlying all religions and all philosphies. Why don't you learn the terms before you jump to incredibly false conclusions about what they mean and project your animosity to make them seem prejudiced. High noble Truths os Sanatan spiritual philosophy is the same as in Buddhi Dharm as in Hindu Dharm as in Sikh Dharm as in Muslim Dharm as in Christian Dharm, as in Jewish Dharm, etc. Because Sanatan means eternal and hence is the Truth which is pervading with greater and lesser degrees of error of interpretation throughout the world. But the ultimate Truth comes from God, the One without a second. High noble Truths refers specifically to: "Ekam Sat Vipraaha Bahudaa Vadanti" 'Truth is One, though the Sages know it as Many.' ~The Rig Veda (Book I, Hymn CLXIV, Verse 46) Now I'm tired of responding to your negative drivel and personal insults which completely derail my responses to a topic. Why are you desperately distorting what I say to twist it into something ugly? Why are you so desperate to hate an enemy? And I would like to know why N30 S!ngh the moderator is ignoring blatantly rude and hostile personal attacks right in front of his face which are degrading the caliber of the whole forum, even as it is evident that any time I post ANYTHING people will jump into the thread derailing it simply to attack me on a personal level. I said: "My dear, you are Frau Hostile. You have to at least acknowledge that you 'shit' is far more hostile than 'poo'." "Now you brought up the more hostile word and refuse to allow this thread to get back on track by constantly expecting others to abide by your own fascist rules and attitudes. I for one will never bow down to such horrible authoritarian views such as yours, nor will I allow my right to freedom of speech be curtailed by those like yourself. You remind me of those BNP-nuts.." What is this another clever RSS slur? Based on what I said? Why use off the wall and unsubstantiated smears. And after how many times I tell you I'm not RSS? Yet you insist to slander any spiritual philosophy I discuss as being the same as the worst hateful right wing politics you can imagine equivalent to BNP racists, isn't it? Can that be deduced from what I said or only from the horrible prejudice of your own mind projected and blamed as any belief of mine? Why accuse of derailing when you slander nonstop? Spewing hate, nindya and false accusations constantly has nothing to do with freedom of speech, it has everything to do with freedom to bully and abuse an opinion to drive it off the forum. And THAT is real fascism. And I shouldn't have to be sidetracked off topic to defend myself against endless challenges and false accusations simply because the moderator fails to moderate the OBVIOUS abuses and bullying on his forum. N30 S!INGH you should be ashamed at your failure to speak out against the forum bullying and at least abide by your own claimed rules of fairness. Why aren't you moderating days now of endless personal attacks on any thread I post on? PERSONAL ATTACKS ARE NOT A SEPARATE TOPIC!

Why are you people like this? What are you afraid of? There IS a sanatan history within Sikhism. If I take exception to Tat Khalsa fanatics KILLING sanatan dera baba's, it is my right to have an opinion. If you don't agree, then voice your own opinion. But HOW can Ravidasias leave Sikhism if they are not accepted as some part of SIKHS? And if they are some part of SIKHS and you object to the Ballan community from leaving and forming a new maryada, HOW CAN I BE ACCUSED OF TAKING SIDE OF HINDU's AGAINST SIKHS? Why in the world, even if it were true and I am incredibly deluded would that not be a point of sympathy for you having the superior and truer spirituality? Why would anyone want to trash and crap all over someone else's beliefs and understanding of God? Why are you all destroying a discussion forum out of intolerance for another point of view? Is your Sikhi so weak? And of course you go on with the martyr story, because if you bully someone, it can't be admitted. They have to be "over-sensitive and a martyr." And then using weapon of rude personal attack INTENDING to derail and ruin threads, blame me. How convenient. You all need a good long look in the mirror. You should be embarrassed. But you have no consciousness of shame.

Why are you playing games? Are you immature? Those are YOUR words. You aren't discussing anything, You are just wasting time insulting and playing games. Cesspit; cesspool: a pit for garbage, excrement, etc. </I> Why are you calling Sanatan Dharma as Satan Dharma? Are you a Christian? That is a Christian belief. Why are you imposing Christian judgments and condemnations of the sanatan aspects within Sikhi? Yet playing games to accuse me, you admit you are using a low tone and degrading the forum quality with horrible words. Stop insulting the very Dharma Guru Sahibaan died to defend! Here you go with ignorant and groundless accusations again. The treatment of lower castes is not a religious obligation according to Sruti. I have already proved the Gurbani definitions of caste as well as the Vaishnav are in agreement with Sruti which is what Sanatana Dharma is based on. The hateful abuses of powerful political leaders such as brahmins, the manipulations of texts like Manu Smritis by racist British, the codification of the caste system under British Raj, etc, have nothing to do with Sanatana Dharma. And to think you can excuse the very blatent casteist abuses of own Jatt community by pointing a finger at someone else is juvenile. EVERYONE is responsible for their own misdeeds and cannot justify or prevent blame based on what someone else is doing. Vaishnav Sanatan Sants and Bhagats whose own bani is in Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is part of traditional philosophy and teaching of Sanatana Dharma. Is THIS what you are condemning as SATAN DHARMA AND CESSPOOL (WHICH MEANS EXCREMENT)? I think you should stop now. If even having the wisdom teachings of Gurbani and the bhagat bani of enlightened Vaishnav sanatanis, own Jatts are behaving like brahmins to oppress lower castes in own Sikh community, then the culpability is even HIGHER! Every Sikh should condemn this behavior. Bringing in derailing accusations about caste was entirely your doing. Why blame it on me? Anyone reading can see the truth. You are a nindak to make sladerous bold claims that people who believe in Sanatana Dharma think God will love them more if they behave abusively to lower castes. More fodder from your aggressive Christian anti-Hindu websites no doubt. Everything which Sanatana Dharma teaches about caste is clearly spelled out in bhagat bani and Gurubani, which has Gurgaddhi and which every Sikh bows hairs to as ABSOLUTE HOLY TRUTH. Stop speaking in such low insulting ways. You are only degrading yourself.

Did you make these statements? Are you implying the Sikhs who study sanatan Sikh granths are brahmins? Yes or no? Is this a judgment poorly of them? Yes or no? Are you equating these granths as brahimnism? Why? Because Sanatana Dharm reflects Divine Truths not man-made opinions of power poolitics of brahmins. YES< brahminvaad is very much a part of Hindu Mat which is a part of Sanatana Dharma as coming from traditional worldview and teachings. But Hindu Mat is also including the man-made views mixed in with Divine truths, sectarian differences. I already gave you example of Vaishnav Mat which is part of Sikhi influence as coming from the Vaishnav bhagats who also influenced Sufi sants. Vaishnav Mat, for example, is not the same thing as brahminism but opposed it. So how can you equate sanatani wordl-view of purataan granths as being brahminism? Who says these granths have been given Gurgaddhi or that any Sikh is accepting this heritage in the Granths as Guru Sahib? Or are you making a judgment again>? See, you are judging how bad people are on basis of these granths as to give them no legitimacy. As if your personal interpretation of Sikhi is the only correct one, as if God is plaything for you to hide behind and judge other people with, like in your personal pocket. Guru Granth Sahib is not wrong. Neither is Gurbani condemning these purataan granths or Sikh history. So why are you? Brahminism is not even the same as the heritage of traditional Sant Mat of bhagats.

"Spiritual culture? WTH? Stop making stuff up. Gurbani is far more than 'spiritual'. Stop using random western words to describe something so beautiful." Spiritual culture as in culture of the sants and bhagats. Gurbani is more than spiritual culture but I was talking about your expressed rude hostility to Hindus repeatedly expressed. "High as opposed to what? Muslim philosophy? Christian philosophy? Ancient Greek philosophy? Once again stop using random words to vaguely hint at what you are trying to say." High spiritual truths and philosophies are not in opposition. Saints of all religions worship the same God. Why is defending the same Hindus you keep speaking of offensively the same as putting down something else or some other philosophy? Why not just be respectful of everyone and you won't get these comments. Can you please show where I am saying something bad about Muslim, Christian or Greek philosophy? High noble truths of yamas and niyamas, good conduct, morality. This is vague? Why not stop being dishonest with yourself? Hostility isn't humor. Comparisons to punishment and excreta is insulting. It is not I who am being hostile but you who refuse to admite the obvious.

When you condemn the granths as being invented and brahminvaad and accuse the Singhs who are studying them as brahmins that is your own particular interpretation of Gurmat Gursikhi and not everybody elses. You do not have Waheguru in your pocket as own special power to condemn other people with. In fact, you yourself may be wrong and are no judge of anyone elses's Sikhi. These many granths which share sanatan philosophy and world view are historical part of Sikhi. It is related to Sant Mat movement of Vaishnav, Sufi and Shaiav bhaktas/bhagats and had influenced on Gursikhi as evidenced by inclusion of bhagat bani and heritage of sanatan granths. It has NOTHING to do with brahminism and actually was established as a reform against brahminism.

The assassination of Chamar Ravidasi baba has no relationship to 1984 and no parallel can be inferred. It is completely unrelated. It is OBSCENE to equate any justification of the Vienna shooting based on injustice in the 1984 Golden Temple attack. I have never supported Operation Bluestar and have condemned it for years. What exactly is your point that if I support Sanatana Dharma I must be the equivilent of goondas who killed Sikhs? What is the point you are making with 1984? Did I ever justify government attack even once? Attack on ANY INNOCENTS be they Hindu, Muslim, Sikhs, Christian is REPREHENSIBLE AND CRIMINAL AND NEVER CAN BE JUSTIFIED. What do Punjab Police have to do with Vienna shooting? Hindustan is a land with a culture and shared heritage. Hindustan id a nation of many ethnic tribes and sects. During 1984 Hindustan was under oppression of Indira Gandhi and her son Sanjay, the wannabe dictator as evidenced by her public policies, heavy-handedness and "emergency." But that is POLITICS. It is NOTHING to do with Sanatana Dharma as philosophical and spiritual teaching or wise and holy teachings of bhagats and sants. Why do you people CONSTANTLY pull out horrific selfish political violence of elite ruling power families as representing ANCIENT SRUTI TRUTHS ABOUT DHARMA WHICH IS IMPLIED BY TERM SANATAN? I did NOT blame SIKHI for actions of these goondas. I am appalled at the many Singhs here who have been defending the actions that happened in Vienna as any kind of example of Sikhi. Hindustani is a nationality, not a separate race or religion. Sikhs who live in India are Hindustanis by virtue of birth. But government of India from inception has been secular and not Hindu. The section of society which wants a Hindu Rastra, the RSS are NOT responsible for the Congress Party politics of 1984. Individuals within it have both condemned and supported the Congress actions. But both are POLITICAL and not RELIGIOUS organizations and do not represent spiritual religious philosophies. So why are you condemning the spiritual philosophies I am trying to discuss with modern politics? Indira Gandhi married a Parsi Muslim. Her son Sanjay married a Sikh. Her son Rajiv married a Christian. Her grandchildren are Christian and have married Christians. Pray tell where are the Hindus in the ruling Gandhi family please? Can you tell me which "Hindustanis" am I defending? Can you give me at least one name? I am trying to support sanatan philosophical heritage which belongs to Sikhi. I am trying to show the evils of separatism and anti-Hindu animosity which generalizes whole population and not hold accountable those actual criminals which includes as many sardars in Punjab Police force. I think the move rejecting Sikhism by Dera Ballan is sad. I do not support it. But as long as people are publically praising the shooters, how will this ever lead to reconciliation with estranged elements of the community? If I condemn assassinations of the Chamar baba as extremist, which "Hindustani's am I defending exactly?" And which "entire community of Sikhs" am I condemning? Do you think I am the only person with the opinion that modern Sikh institutions are politically corrupted and not representing Dharmic spirituality? How is this condeming "Sikhs" and defending or excusing horror of criminals implicated in Indian state massacres? Did you even bother to read my article about Sruti, Shabad and NAAM? My interest is in Sanatana Dharma as inclusive spiritual philosophy not as politics or tribalism or casteism or whatever derailing non-issue people want to attribute to my views. The point is made that Operation Bluestar cannot be blamed blindly on Hindu religion or believers in Hindu spirituality. Of course the GENERAL of the ARMY is a loyal patriot to his nation of Hindustan. He is a secular and not a religious person. His attack on Golden Temple was an evil miscalculation which cost the Nation dearly. I do not support it. I have always condemned it. Be clear at least on that point. But you can't wildly and fanatically blame Hindu's and Hinduism for these calculated political power struggles. General Brar did no make attack on Harimandir Sahib to persecute own Sikhs, but did in fact act as a repressive force follwoing dictates of the dictator. And it cost her dearly too. Notice, I never ever once in my life defended Indira Gandhi as anything more than a murderer who got her just deserts EVEN as she was shot to death unarmed. And REASON BEING, she was guilty of murder and executed for it. But killing an unarmed baba for "disrespect" when own sharabis are disrespecting and do not get same death penalty is warped justice. Either we must kill everybody who does beadbi or kill nobody. But it cannot be killing of Chamar baba and not of own Jatts who do the same. He was a Ravidasi baba and it must be ascertained whether he was following traditions of Sant Mat and if he was violating SRM, then Gursikhs would be within rights to PEACEABLY ASSEMBLE and remove Guru Granth Sahib from premises. But resorting to shooting up the Gurdhera is BUTCHERY. The fact that the evil brahmin Hindu conspiracy is aided and abetted by powerful influential Sikh forces such as General Brar and Chief of Police KPS Gill is not rubbish. It is EVIDENCE that these injustices are NOT SIKH RELIGION VERSUS HINDU RELIGION ISSUES. So why are these politics used to demonize ancient Hindu spiritual philosophy which existed long before existence of modern Indian state? THAT is the rubbish. Sikhs shouldn't stick together with some herd mentality to defend Sikhs. Khalsa should defend TRUTH AND JUSTICE, not own political or pind self-interest. If some Singhs have done wrong, why can't Sikhs say so? Why do Singhs have to blindly be loyal to criminals in own Panth simply to show solidarity against Chamars or Hindus or whoever is the enemy of the day? I am a registered Nurse who has worked decades with gunshot and trauma victims of all kinds. And I did not make the claim that Ravidasi body guards fired shots which killed own baba. Let me share a bit of legal point of view. When someone in commission of a crime causes circumstances to arise in which another party reacts to the first crime... as in self-defense, any culpability for the reaction to the crime, caused by the crime becomes the liability of the criminal who set the chain of events in motion. So for example, suppose a bad man kidnaps a young girl. If while attempting to escape and save her life the young girl picks up and fires a shotgun in the direction of the bad man, if due to her extreme distress she misfires and wounds or kills a woman walking down the street... I assure you, the first criinal will be charged for setting the chain of events into motion which caused the destruction of life and property. You aren't exonerated for causing the duress which results in use of equal force in self-defense. By going into a temple, where there are bodyguards published as reporting death threats, and pulling a gun and firing at the preacher... the first crime committed set into motion a chain of events where equal force is justified to protect life. And sadly for those involved will find the law very harsh and the Courts to blame any injuries resulting therefrom as being conditioned by the first factor, those who pulled the guns and fired first. As to whether bodyguards bullets could also have hit innocents in the sangat? This is undisputed. What parties fired guns in the first place? THOSE actions are blameworthy and carry the responsibility of crime in every instance that followed from it. If I break into your house and shot your wife, and you shot me and the bullet travels through, wounding me slightly but killing your daughter...are you responsible in this set of facts? No. I am. Because i caused you to resort to shooting back to defend yourself and under stress to misfire and kill own daughter. Do you understand veer ji? Those would be actions of a CRIMINAL, NOT A BHAGAT AND NOT A SIKH. Bhagats of God and Sikhs of Guru don't jeopardize innocents by taking guns into public temple and firing shots to assassinate the babas. Okay, I can accept that. But others on this thread ARE DEFENDING AND EXCUSING. And I was objecting to that as extremist Talibani violence to eliminate opposing views. Taliban may mean student, but the political Taliban who hang, rape, sell into prostition, deal drugs, wage war, force jizhia, throw acid in the face of school girls for not wearing hijab, etc are certainly not disciples of God. They are even condemned by own Muslim community. Why do you equate me with Taliban now? Taliban rule = frequent assassinations and mutilations of opponents and those who have different beliefs or practices. Carry on like this and the mods will just boot you off, I'm sure there is a concerted effort by several people to achieve exactly this. Why should I be silent and only those who are praising killers of Ravidasi baba as bhagats only allowed to voice an opinion? WHY exactly can I not share own views without others engaging in personal attacks and rude insults which do not even discuss the issues? Who exactly am I rudely insulting? The "bhagats" who shot up the Ravidasi sangat? Well if I get banned for it I will consider it point of honor that at least I spoke up and didn't cater to popular opinion.

I'm saying that yours is not the only legitimate and valid interpretation of Sikhi and that historically these granths which you have denounced have been an accepted part of it.

Why don't you just grow up, lay off and stop telling people to STHU on a discussion forum instead of intelligently and non-insultingly discussing the issues presented. If you hate my posts then ignore and don't respond to them. But how juvenile it is to attacke me on every one of them by personal insults and bold claims without any intelligent debate. That is your quote after all.

So you are saying the Ravidasi assassination was revenge for 1984? How exactly, and WHY did 1984 and Punjab police repression get into the discussion except you are using it as some kind of justification of anything? Do you really think the Punjab police were all Hindus? That their brutality reflects something about Sanatana Dharma and not lack of education and corrupted system of bribes inherited from British Raj since formation of Indian state? You are incapable of separating out corruptions from generalized blame of anything Hindu? What kind of response is this? It was a SIKH general who planned Operation Bluestar. Why aren't you blaming him? Actually I am an RN who worked for 20 years in intensive care and emergency room and spent exactly one year working for the Sheriff's dept. And I can categorically state that innocent bystanders are injured and die from ricocheting bullets shot by thugs. Not only that, but I am honest with the fact pattern as established by the printed news and not relying on unpublished hearsay tending to exonerate the accused. By what insane distortion of logic do you falsely portray me as some defender or supporter of Operation Bluestar? But fanatical Talibani Sikhs who murder Ravidasi Baba should not be defended while pointing fingers at the innocents who were killed. No. What a horrible way to disgrace the shaheedi of victims of Operation Bluestar by using their suffering as some justification of Vienna shootings.

It's not a Sikhs are Hindu's discussion. It's a discussion of legitimacy of sanatan granths and sanatan history of Sikhi during the time period in which the granths were written reflecting far more tolerance than is expressed by this discussion forum. Stop trying to censor and derail legitimate discussion of this aspect of Sikh history. It is yours and others hateful intolerance of the legitimate established scholarly articles on this subject with personal attacks, rude comments, and degrading insults of my character which ruin the threads. I am blamed for ruining threads but people attacking Sanatana Dharma as a cesspool which is shit and a satan are NOT ruining and derailing the discussion? OBVIOUSLY none of you can refute the facts presented and degenerate into childish insults instead. How can anyone have a discussion of legitimacy of sanatan granths MARGINALIZED by the Singh Sabha reform and deny there ever was one by labeling such history as some insane conspiracy theory? Why not discuss these issues up front? Or are you denying a Singh Sabha reform ever took place which removed sanatan version of Sikhi from prominence and succeed so much in disfiguring it that Sikhs literally hate and abuse anything Hindu nowadays and think that's "Gurmat?" If it is some unproved fantasy of my own invention, "i.e.," conspiracy theory, then why is this subject part of the scholarly controversies and history of the Sikh Panth? You are all so good at ganging up on me and demanding answers to endless questions. Why don't you stop spitting insults and answer WHY you think analysis of the Singh Sabha reform movement on modern Sikhism is some invalid crackpot conspiracy theory and not actual demonstrable history? You're an intelligent man, why not debate with intelligence?

Punjabi Police is overwhelmingly represented by Sikhs. Does anyone in right mind believe they represent Sikhi? How does a mob of goondas politically inflamed by politicians equal Hindu Dharmic teaching? Politically motivated mobs who commit crimes reflect ADHARMA and not any DHARMIC spirituality at all. They reflect criminality and not spiritual teaching of any kind. Why do you think if criminal goodas tortured and attacked Sikhs that it is somekind of justification of shooting up a gurdwara with unarmed women and children in there? I do not blame Sikhi for that idiocy. I blame the idiots. From the published Vienna newspaper article. "Police spokesman Michael Takacs earlier said the scene was "like a battlefield." ...Witnesses in Vienna spoke of chaos. "Everybody was praying and then it started with knives and a pistol," said Nermal Singh, "It was like war. There was lots of blood everywhere. barefooted, his shirt bloodied and his head bandaged from what he saidwas a knife wound. Ram, 72, said, "I heard four to five shots" in thetemple. "People started screaming, children were crying as they ranout." Can you prove to me that shots fired into a crowd are incapable of ricocheting and injuring innocents? Anyone who fires a gun into a crowded building is an idiot. 16 people were injured. Was entire sangat the target or just the Ravidasi babas? What published facts do you have which support your contention that facts (not self-justifying rumors) point in another direction? What direction would that be exactly? And people who defend murderers as bhaktas of God are what exactly if not ironic?

I have never called Singh Sabha as cesspool of shit or a satan. I also wrote an article to clarify that I will not speak against spiritual jeevan of respected Mahapurash from Singh Sabha oriented sampraday. My personal rejection of Singh Sabha ideology is substantiated in specific points with reference citations that anyone is welcome to disagree with. I have never used hateful and abusive language such as you are using to define in most disrespectful and hateful terms. I believe the kind of hatred and blind opposition and constant mockery of anything Hindu or sanatani reflected on these forums is the PRODUCT of radical Singh Sabha rejections which is why I am against that philosophy. But I have already said in a previous post that I believe sant Mahapurash have come from Singh Sabha reform and should be respected. Explain how that is hatred compared to calling as cesspool shit and satan? Are you serious? And alienation of Mahzbi and Chamar populations by Jatt dominated Sikh institutions is not a form of "rejection of Gurubani by treatment of lower castes?" Sanatan Sikhi and imagery and Vedantic associations in philosophy is all over purataan granths such as Prem Sumarag, Gurbilas, Janam and Sau Sakhis, Suraj Prakash and even Gurur Granth and Dasam Granth. It is evident in the vaars of bhai Gurdas and the murals left over from time period of Maharaja Ranjit Singh. Why deny the obvious existence of it just to prove a point that you disagree with it and support the refomr movement?

People who equate bhagat/bhaktas who love God with murderers who shoot into crowd of unarmed families, women and children and kill unarmed old man are equal to brainwashed Taliban. Guru God is bigger than insults. But service to God is not equal to shooting guns at unarmed people. Bhagats is it? armed with guns and using holy Siri Sahibs to attack and not to defend? Shooting into crowd with children? Are you serious? And people call me mad. Strange was passes itself off as defense of Dharma these days.