Mithar

Spokesman is a Kala Afghani propaganda newspaper. They will always claim that they were simply excommunicated for speaking out against the so called "clergy". That is a very misleading statement by these heretics. These traitors have been created by the GOI to divide the Panth. Spokesman Joginder Sahni was excommunicated because he would mislead the sangat about Sikh Sidhant, Sikh Ithihas, Sikh traditions, rehet Maryada, Nitnem Banis, dasam bani etc. While some Deras may be problematic, but to say that the only reason for the decline of Sikh values and Sikhi in general is because of deras is really avoiding the real issues. There are a lot of reasons because of which Sikhi has not been able to spread as far and wide as it should have. Some deras are just the tip of the ice berg. These Kala Afghanis are currently the biggest problem facing the Panth. Not all Sikh deras are bad. These Kala Afghanis will group Panthic bodies like Taksal or any Sampradah associated with a Sant Mahapursh who preaches about Sikhi as the same as Dera Sacha Sauda and Radhasoami(dera Beas).

That's almost like someone being an AKJ and Taksali at the same time!

Baba Deep Singh Jee was a Nihang.

Badal should not call others traitors. In 1984 he was writing secret letters to Indira Gandhi to attack the golden temple and get rid of Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwalay.

I never knew that east Asians also had a term for their coconuts. They call them Bananas LOL.

I have also encountered such coconuts. Strangely 'coconutism' seems to effect Indian females the most.

She hardly has anything Indian about her, so she might as well call herself white. She is the very definition of the term coconut.

Which is why I differentiated by saying "avtarvaad of the Hindus". Our concept of avtarvaad is not the same. Hindus(Vaishnavite) beleive Vishnu as the supreme Lord. But our Gurus were the manifestation of Gurujyot which existed since the beginning.

Gurbani from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee is pure premabhagti. It is very deep and meaningful, which is partly the reason why so many people misinterpret it. Bani from Sri Dasam Granth is very direct, it is almost like a punch to the face to those who beleive in avtarvaad of the Hindus or Idol worshiping.

Is that you G Kaur?

Amongst other things, Sri Dasam Granth is probably the most vocal when it comes to doing khandan of avtarvaad of the Hindus. Shree Guru Gobind Singh Jee clearly makes his stance clear on what his views are on the Avtars of the Hindu and many other Hindu practices. This great Granth is what is preventing Sikhs from being swallowed up by the Hindu faith and keeping the Nyaraapan of the Khalsa alive. That is why Kala Afghanis have been planted to put doubts about Sri Dasam Granth amongst the Sikhs and eventually the line distinguishing the uniqueness of Sikhi will disappear and the eventual absorption of Sikh faith into the Hindu faith will happen. No Sikh who has firm belief in Sri Dasam Granth can believe in Avtarvaad of the Hindus. Sure Vishnu and his avtars were great entities, but Dasam Banis like Chandi Di Vaar makes it clear that even the many good things that the Avtars of Vishnu did was not Vishnu but Vaheguru, it is Vaheguru's shakti that is working through the avtars, otherwise these Avtars are mere insects(according to Dasam Granth). Bachitar Naatak makes it clear that Vaheguru created Vishnu, but Vishnu began to call himself as God(Bishan Aap ki ko thehraayo). These Shiva, Brahma and Vishnu who were created by Vaheguru but eventually they forgot Vaheguru and began think of themselves as God(Prabh Ko Prabhu kinhoon jana). Please study Sri Dasam Granth more and see for yourself what opinion Guru Gobind Singh jee holds of avtarvaad and other Hindu practices like idol worshiping.

Not according to Sri Dasam Granth.

You don't need to even look at Peter to know that Martin is imperfect. What happens if Martin happens to beleive in the oppressive caste system, idol worship OR is an old pedophile who married a 6 year girl, promotes rape and execution of unarmed combatants/civilians, believes in slavery etc do we still need to ask if Martin is equal to Peter? If Sikhs do not abandon Dasam Bani, and read it they can clearly see the greatness (and distinctness) of Gurmat over all other matts, which is why certain agencies have planted the Kala Afghani movement amongst the Sikhs to discard Dasam Bani.

True, those are the people that should be reached out to. Look at these christian missionaries, they approach the people who live in slums, build schools and prefer to hire Christians as teachers over non Christians. Sikhs should also approach poor people, build schools and in the process also encourage Sikh employment. Unfortunately, great big Sikh institutions such as SGPC or DSGMC or even great Sikh Jathabandis such as Buddhadal, Taksals, AKJ, Missionaries, Sant Samaj have not approached the poor people. All these great Sikh organization have a lot of money and materiel resources which can by utilized for Prachar. But no one is doing anything.

The so called Guru Ansh are the descendants of the Gurus through blood line.

The term the descendants like to use for themselves is Guru Ansh. They were the Bedis, Sodhis, Bhallas and maybe another gotra (I can't remember which). Pre Singh Sabha days they held a lot of influence amongst the Sikhs. Sikh nobility would donate to them, average Sikhs would do seva of them thinking they are making Guru Jee happy by doing so. They sort of held the same position that Syads hold amongst the Muslims. But during the Singh Sabha movement, the Singh Sabhiyas completely destroyed any credibility the descendants had amongst the Sikhs. The spirit of Sikh teaches us that a Sikh should be judged based on their Karams not their ancestry.

I think when a Bedi claims to be a descendant of Guru Nanak Dev Jee, the claim should be taken with a pinch of salt. Every Bedi you run into always claims to be a descendant of Guru Nanak Dev Jee. I've never come across a Bedi who has never claimed descent from the 1st Patshah. This claim can only be true if Guru Nanak Dev Jee was the originator of the Bedi clan which he wasn't. I think realistically only a fraction of Bedis are authentic descendants of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Jee. Most Bedis are just "Bedis" but not Guru Ansh.

You can try to steer away the topic all you like amardeep brother to 1984. But the fact remains that if Sikhs did not retaliate against Muslims in 1947, then where should have the millions of Sikhs and Hindus refugees from west Punjab settled? My own family for example, got a house and land whose previous occupants had been Muslims. Where would my family have settled in, or do you think we should have lived like Palistinian refugees for the last 64 years? If the Muslims had remained, then today due to low birth rate of Sikhs and Hindus and extremely high birth rate of Muslims, east Punjab would have been another Kashmir. Would you have preferred that situation instead? It is very easy to be politically correct, but sometimes you need to see outside of the sensitive PC bubble to see the harsh reality of this world.

Those are excellent suggestions Sikhkhoj. Although Sikhs are only about 20,000 in number, but there is a large potential for increase. Pakistan has a large number of Hindus and Christians who can be receptive to the Sikh religion, especially Hindus. With increased numbers due to conversion, Sikhs should form their own towns, villages because strength lies in unity and greater numbers. From what I have seen personally, most Pakistani Muslims are not bad. It's just the religious ones that are not good and are turning that country into a shyt hole. Sikhkojh, you made another noteworthy point about recent Muslim increases in east Punjab. Many of the Bhayaas are infact Muslims. Even Muslims Gujjars have been increasing in number and the Gujjars are the really religious ones with the long beards. Two years ago I went to a village near Ludhiana and was surprised to see these men who looked like Pathans from Afghanistan. Then someone told me that these are Gujjars from Kashmir who have settled here and have taken over the dairy business in the village, they are also reported to be armed. They even repaired the old mosque that was in ruins(thanks in part to local Sikh funding). Today their attitude has become so assertive and defiant that Sikhs in the village have begun to dislike them.

If the Sikhs of 1947 had this type of PC mentality and not have retaliated against Muslims and kicking them out of east Punjab then it is very likely that today east Punjab would have been a second Kashmir type situation.

That's fine and all. But reality is, that is the only way Muslims will understand. When Sirdar Baghel Singh conquered Delhi, he built numerous historical Gurdwaras in around Delhi. When he wanted to build Gurdwara Sis Ganj Sahib, he had to demolish a Mosque which was built on that very same spot where our Guru was Shaheed. At first the Muslims were getting angry at the idea of the Mosque being demolished to make way for a Gurdwara, but when Sirdar Baghel Singh took out his sword just half way out of it's sheath, the Muslims were humbled and became quiet at the very thought of what Sikhs might do if Sikhs become infuriated. During that same period(misl period), there was a Gurdwara in Sirhind which was taken over by Muslims and converted into a Mosque. This was too much for the Sikhs to tolerate. Sikhs gathered together and attacked the mosque where they also executed the Maulvi and others who were responsible for converting the Gurdwara into a Mosque. As HSD mentioned, Muslims were scared of Sikhs because of the level of violence Sikhs were capable of. But after the British had taken over Sikhs began losing this retaliatory instinct. Which is why Muslims very confidently directed violence towards Sikhs in early 1946. They did not think Sikhs were going to retaliate, but they were wrong and Sikhs did retaliate and ended up killing 4 times more Muslims then Sikhs were killed during partition. Sikhs by nature are not instigators of violence. Sikhs only use violence in retaliation. If Muslims have forgotten what happened to them in 1947, and are up to their old games again, Sikhs should take notice of this.

See the thing is, if we cannot take action by doing the same thing to their Mosques in east Punjab and giving them a taste of their own medicine, then the least we can do is not to build more mosques in our side of Punjab and showing what idiots we are. Another interesting point in the article is, they mention that the Muslims who are doing this are Barelvi Muslims. Barelvis beleive in Sufism and are suppose to be the "tolerant Muslims". Here our liberal minded Sikhs are always blaming everything to the Wahabis. Well this shows that there is no tolerant form of Islam. Seeing our history with Islam from the past to the present it is even more depressing how apne(like sarbatdapala) feel so impressed by Islam. They always say "no it is the Wahabis who do the bad things, sufism is good and tolerant". Well this recent attack is by Sufi Muslims.

Here we(Sikhs) are building and repairing mosques for the Muslims in east Punjab like a bunch of idiots that we are, and this is how Muslims repay Sikhs in Pakistan. We need to act more like our grand fathers in 1947. If they deny us from attending our Gurdwara, we should repay them in kind and prevent them from entering their mosques. If they are trying to take over our Gurdwaras, we should take over their mosques in East Punjab. If they will hold functions and pray(namaz) in our Gurdwaras, then we should also hold functions and do kirtan at their mosques in our side of Punjab. I sure hope this is an eye opener for Sikhs who are idiotically building mosques for Muslims in east Punjab.

http://www.samachar.com/Sikh-community-in-Lahore-prevented-from-celebrating-festival-lhrqJHjcbhc.html Sikh community in Lahore prevented from celebrating festival Agencies Posted: Jul 17, 2011 at 1558 hrs IST Islamabad The Sikh community in the eastern city of Lahore has been barred from organising a religious celebration at a disputed gurdwara after a religious group persuaded authorities that celebrating the Muslim holy day of 'Shab-e-Barat' is more important than the Sikh festival. The musical equipment of the Sikhs was thrown out and their entry to the gurdwara barred due to the efforts of the Dawat-e-Islami, a Barelvi proselytising group, The Express Tribune newspaper reported today. Police were deployed outside the gurdwara to prevent Sikhs from conducting a religious ceremony until after the end of Shab-e-Barat, which falls tomorrow. The Sikh community wanted to commemorate an eighteenth-century saint at the gurdwara on Friday. Gurdwara Shaheed Bhai Taru Singh at Naulakha Bazaar in Lahore was built to honour the memory of a Sikh saint who was executed in 1745 on the orders of the Mughal governor of Punjab, Zakaria Khan. Every July, Sikhs have held religious ceremonies to commemorate his sacrifice. Though the gudwara was taken over by the Evacuee Trust Property Board after Partition, Sikhs were allowed to continue using it with relatively few restrictions. Four years ago, the Dawat-e-Islami claimed the gurdwara was located on the site of the grave of a 15th century Muslim saint, Pir Shah Kaku. The group claimed Kaku was the grandson of Baba Fariduddin Ganjshakar, an "implausible claim" since Ganjshakar died in 1280 while it claims that Kaku died almost 200 years later, in 1477, the daily reported. The Sikh community had approached ETPB, which allowed both communities to observe their religious rituals according to their own beliefs at the gurdwara. The Dawat-e-Islami used it every Thursday for prayer services while Sikhs used it once a year for the anniversary of Taru Singh's martyrdom. This year, when Sikh men went in to set up their musical instruments on July 13, they were thrown out by men from Dawat-e-Islami and prevented from re-entering the shrine. Members of the Sikh community, many of whom fear to be identified, said the leader of the group of men, Sohail Butt, claimed that the gurdwara was now a mosque and Sikhs would not be allowed to bring in their musical instruments any longer. Butt admitted he had prevented Sikhs from performing their ritual, claiming that the gurdwara was inside the courtyard of the mosque. "Shab-e-Barat is more important than the Sikh ritual," Butt said, adding the ETPB had accepted his group's stance. Officials from ETPB admit that they have asked the Sikh community to postpone their celebrations until after Shab-e-Barat. ETPB Deputy Administrator Faraz Abbas, who deals with Sikh affairs across Pakistan, admitted that Sikhs had been denied entry into the gurdwara. Gurunanak Mission president Sardar Bishon Singh said the ETPB's decision to bar Sikhs from entering their shrine was against the constitution. He said that he approached the ETPB but was told to wait until after Shab-e-Barat. "How can we postpone the rituals of our faith," he asked, adding that the government was not paying attention to their cause. Singh appealed to Supreme Court Chief Justice Iftikhar Chaudhry to take suo moto action over the violation of rights of minorities in Pakistan.

The language in Sarbloh Kavach seems like Sanskrit. It's pretty hard just to read it and properly pronounce those words. What is Ram Kavach? do you have a link for that?