Mithar

Kavi Santokh Singh Jee wrote what he wrote based on what he heard. Every saakhi he heard whether it was verified or not, he just wrote it down which is why it is not considered a Sikh canonical scripture. We Sikhs determine which Sakhi is reliable by testing it if it is in line with Sikh canonical writings which are SGGSJ, writings of Guru Gobind Singh Jee, Bhai Gurdas Jee, Bhai Nand Lal Jee. While Kavi Santokh SIngh Jee's monumental work is respected by the Panth, but no Sikh considers it to be a canonical Sikh scripture while Muslims consider the Hadiths to be canonical along with the Quran.

The hadiths by Bukhari are considered the most reliable sources on the prophet mohammad. Unlike Kavi Santokh Singh Jee, bukhari did not just blindly write down every thing he heard. He diligently verified each and every thing before writing it which is why the followers of Prophet Mohammad beleive in the Hadiths as the most reliable sources there is about Prophet Mohammad. Bukhari himself was no ordinary man, he was actually a genius, they say he had all these Hadiths memorized by heart. Non of the Hadiths can be said to contradict the other Islamic canonical writing which is the Quran.

It's really strange that you as non Muslim are questioning validity of the Hadiths, while Muslims who literally LIVE ISLAM and die for Islam as true believers in the message of Prophet Mohammad and his Quran beleive it to be the most reliable source on Mohammad.

But the difference is, neither prophet Mohammad nor the writers of the Hadiths were Brahmgianis. A Brahmgiani is not some small entity. What to talk of prophet Mohammad, a Gurmukh Brahmgiani is greater than even Brahma, Vishnu or Shiva.

You said:


The only valid and primary historical sources on the life of the Prophet Mohammad are the Quran and the Hadiths. But on another thread you dismissed Quran and Hadiths suggesting that they may not be reliable since they do not show prophet Mohammad in a positive light. You cannot just pick and choose when you want to use the Quran and Hadith card when it suits your argument. If you accept the Quran and Hadiths then you must accept that Prophet Mohammad was a pedophile, mass murderer, slave owner and trader, rapist, forcible converter and warlord.

If the Hadiths say he was all of those things, when why is it difficult to accept what Sant Jee said to be the truth?

I think Singh Sabha thought is very important for the survival of Sikhi. It emphasises the Nyarapan of Khalsa Dharm where as the Sanatanists views pretty much that everything and anything is a part of Sikhi. It is very difficult to differentiate Sanatanism from Hindu Mat which actually confuses even many Hindus like Harjas Devi who think that Sikhi is just an extension of Hinduism based on Sanatanism. If fact she mostly quoted from Sanatanist sources to prove how Sikhi and Hindu mat are one and same and attacked Singh Sabha thought mainly because Singh Sabha emphasised the distinctness/Nyarapan of Khalsa Dharm. Singh Sabha books like Hum Hindu Nahin are still widely read and thanks to Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha and the other original Singh Sabhiyas, Sikhi retained it's Nyarapan was not swallowed by Hindu Mat.



Islam is the worlds fastest growing dharm.

Even though Bindra is critical of Charitro Pakhyaan, but his translation of ChatroPakhyaan does not have a hint of bias in it. Just compare his tranlation to a Punjab translation of CharitroPakhyan puting them side by side and you will see that Bindra Jee who althoug is critical of the Bani but he did not try to mistranslate it as we can expect most critics of Charitro Pakhyan would do, for that I have to give Bindra Jee credit.

Nirmale are still located in many Hindu centers. How many Hindus have converted to Sikhi is to be seen. I went to many Hindu cities where Nirmale are also located, I have rarely seen Sikhs there. So your theory that Nirmale are great for Prachar to Hindus also falls flat. Singhs Sabha is over. It was over long ago even before our grand parents generation. But while Singh Sabha was in full force, it did massive prachar converting whole biraadharees to Sikhi. Lobanas for example mostly converted during that period, before that they were mostly Hindus.

Totally agree with you chatanga.

As always Tony Jee, you are great!!

From my experience you have to memorise it systematically. First select a Bani you want to memorise. Then read it every day. Once your speed for reading it becomes fast, then read it 2-3 times a day. That is the method I use. Some people memorise one Pauri per day by repeating it all day long while at home or at work. Alot of people have their own methods to memorise Bani. Experiment and see what method suits you.

This link mentions this about Ragmala and Kavi Santokh Singh:

Maha-Kavi Santokh Singh (1787-1843), the famous historian that is most quoted by Kathavachiks (preachers), writes in 'Sri Gur Partaap Sooraj Granth' (pages 430-431):
ਲਿਖੇ ਸਮਸਤ ਸਵੈਯੇ ਸੋਅੂ, ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਕੇ ਮਾਂਹਿ ।
ਅੰਤ ਸਰਬ ਕੇ ਲਿਖਿ ਮੁੰਦਾਵਣੀ, ਮੁੰਦ੍ਰਿਤ ਮੁਹਰ ਲਗੀ ਜਨੁ ਵਾਹਿ ।
ਭੋਗ ਸਕਲ ਬਾਣੀ ਕੋ ਪਾਯਹੁ, ਮਹਿਮਾ ਜਿਸ ਕੀ ਕਹੀ ਨਾ ਜਾਇ ।
ਭਵਜਲ ਭੈਰਵ ਕੋ ਜਹਾਜ ਬਜ਼, ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਤੇ ਪਾਰ ਪਰਾਇ ॥੩੯॥
"Then Guru Ji wrote all the Svaiyye in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. In the end (Guru Ji) wrote Mundavani as a seal indicating that Gurbani is no longer after this seal. One cannot measure the great spiritual benefit of reading a complete reading of whole of Baani. Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the ship to get across the this ocean of world. By the great grace of God this ship has been sent to this world and by his grace alone one can get onto this ship. ||39||

ਰਾਗਮਾਲ ਸ਼੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਨਿਹਂ, ਹੈ ਮੁੰਦਾਵਣੀ ਲਗਿ ਗੁਰ ਬੈਨ ।
ਇਸ ਮਹਿਂ ਨਿਹਂ ਸੰਸੈ ਕੁਛ ਕਰੀਅਹਿ, ਜੇ ਸੰਸੈ ਅਵਿਲੋਕਹੁ ਨੈਨ ।
ਮਾਧਵ ਨਲ ਆਲਮ ਕਿਵ ਕੀਨਸਿ, ਤਿਸ ਮਹਿਂ ਨ੍ਰਿਤਕਾਰੀ ਕਹਿ ਤੈਨ ।
ਰਾਗ ਰਾਗਨੀ ਨਾਮ ਗਿਨੇ ਤਿਹਂ, ਯਾਂ ਤੇ ਸ਼੍ਰੀ ਅਰਜਨ ਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਹੈ ਨ ॥੪੦॥
"Raagmala is not Baani of Guru Sahib. Only up to Mundaavni is Gurbani; don’t doubt this statement and don’t let any cloud of doubt come in front of your eyes. A book named Maadhavaanal was written by Poet Aalam, this Raagmala is part of that book (the Niratkaari chapter of it. Niratkaari means dance. Raagmala appears in the scene when Kaam Kandhala the dancer dances and sings a song in front of the king while Madhavnal watches and plays instruments). Aalam Kavi has written the names of Raags and Raagnis that were sung at that time. Therefore, this baani is not the work of Siri Guru Arjan Dev Ji.||40||"

If you don't agree with him fine... but the least you can do is to address the man with some respect instead of "Randhiri". The only other person in my lifetime I've heard call Bhai Randhir Singh Jee like that was a Kala Afghana Chella. So why stoop down to the level of a Kala Afghana Chella?

Too many RSS members here. I must report it to the Akal Takht LOL

Shaheediya, the hukamnama by Guru Hargobind Sahib Jee is considered authentic by historian Ganda Singh and (as a result) even by SGPC/missionary. Hukamnamas contained in Ganda Singh's book "hukamnamay" are not disputed. They are recognised as being authentic by the Panth.

Whether or not meat eating is against or allowed in Sikhi, but meat eating Sikhs can only eat meat that has been done Jhatka to. In the west I'm not aware of anywhere where Jhatka is performed, yet ironically there exists shops that will falsely use the term "jhatka" in order to fool Sikh masses who eat meat. Those shops buy their meat from slaughter houses which kill animals using the western method of slaughter. That is not Jhatka meat. Only in India/Nipal you will find real Jhatka meat.

I think when a Bedi claims to be a descendant of Guru Nanak Dev Jee, the claim should be taken with a pinch of salt. Every Bedi you run into always claims to be a descendant of Guru Nanak Dev Jee. I've never come across a Bedi who has never claimed descent from the 1st Patshah. This claim can only be true if Guru Nanak Dev Jee was the originator of the Bedi clan which he wasn't. I think realistically only a fraction of Bedis are authentic descendants of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Jee. Most Bedis are just "Bedis" but not Guru Ansh.

LOL, he's probably married and has children by now

True. For the Pathans, it was also an Islamic duty to stand by their Khalif. The Calif on his part had also declared a Jihaad knowing how many Muslim soldiers were in the British army, he probably thought they would all mutiny. But only the Pathans did. Interestingly the Punjabi Muslim soldiers remained loyal to the British despite the fact that the opposing side was the Khaliffa.

While the British were occupied with WW1, Sikhs in India in the form of the Gaddarite movement were planning to overthrow the British rule known as the Lahore conspiracy case. If the Sikhs had succeeded, then it is very likely that India would have become independent way back then as Ireland was. But due to a traitor it was not meant to be.


During 1984 many Sikh soldiers had mutinied and some were even butchered or imprisoned as a result, many lost their jobs. But the Indian army was also smart that they had before hand separated the Sikh regiments to far off corners of India so it would be impossible for them to reach Punjab in case of a mutiny. Most of the work the Sikh soldiers were used for was for the cleaning up of Darbar Sahib complex after the attack was finished.

If this is happening in the heartland of Sikhi "Punjab", then what can we hope for in foreign countries.

Another Veham is telling children not to drink Chaah(tea) or else their skin colour will turn dark.

I think that in context to the whole PouRhi, those Tukhs may be refering to Sri Ram Chandra Jee.

But many Banis in Sri Dasam Granth should not be read in the same manner as read from Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee. Many Dasam Granth Banis were written by Guru Jee as a scholarly narrator of epics which are based on ancient Granths. Many of them are not considered Dhur Ki Bani even though they are in fact Dasam Bani.

The Rajput defeat was a huge tragedy for India. After this, India was destined to slavery for hundreds of years.

LOL, Bahadur used to say the same thing but with Shia'ism.

I disagree with the title name of this thread "Neo-Masand propaganda against Sants"

It should be renamed to " admin cut doing propaganda against Sants

All the rehets are very similar with a few differences. SGPC maryadha is good, but it's just the part of having 5 nitnemi banis instead of 7 that I can't seem to agree with. Taksal's maryadha is also good, it has the 7 nitnemi banis. But yes, Sikhs do need to have a centralized maryadha.

Nihangs have a copy right over the Chola? Are you serious? So no one else is allowed to wear a Chola? Next time you are in India, go to some museum and take a look at those old Indo Persian painting which clearly show Mughals or Muslims and Rajputs also wearing Chola, the kind that Nihangs wear. So did they have to ask permission from Nihangs to wear a Chola??? Tomorrow people like you will say the 5 kakkars are also the copy right of Nihangs, or Gurbani is also the copy right of Nihangs and no other Sikh is allowed to read it.

Since the last few months the quality of this forum is going lower and lower by the day with such useless and brain dead topics.

I always wonder why are we (Sikhs) are the only ones in the whole world plagued with such idiocy from our own who are basically detractors of our faith. You'll never see Hindus, Buddhists, Jews or Muslims have such retards amongst their ranks. It's really frustrating.

In a Sikh discussion forum one should never insult another forum member or resort to name calling. People disagree with one another, we may not like that they disagree but we need to accept that and still act in a friendly, brotherly fashion because that is the Sikh thing to do.

I do agree that the Sikh army was a highly advanced military. Most people give credit of this to the Europeans that Maharaja Ranjit Singh hired, but according to Khushwant Singh the Sikh army was already a professionally advanced army because from the first treaty with the British and the defeat of the large Maratha armies at the hands of the smaller British army, Ranjit Singh realized the importance of having a profession army drilled in modern warfare so he began hiring Hindustani sepoys to leave their job with the British and work for him instead and in doing so they would train the Sikh army in modern warfare.

Before the first Europeans had arrived most of the territories of the Sikh kingdom had already been conquered. When the British gifted a cannon to Ranjit Singh, the Sikhs had successfully reproduced that cannon into the hundreds. In fact, they even managed to make modification and make it better than the British cannon. To make hundreds of cannons, you need indigenous industry. The world at the time may not have been highly industrialized, but the Sikh kingdom was certainly more advanced then any Asian country and just on it's way to matching the Europeans. If only Sikhs had conquered Sindh, then the Sikhs would have even had a navy and access to the sea.

Good point. The fact that India is an emerging economy, India should be able to flex some of it's muscles. But when it gets too hot, India has shown that it cannot stand the heat. Look at how Pakistan conduct's cross border terrorism, but all India does it is cry about it like a little victim in their media or the UNO. Iran has had a very friendly relationship with India, in fact Iran has always sided with India even going against it's Islamic neighbor Pakistan. Yet under pressure from the US, India has recently started to support the US line of interest against Iran. India couldn't even do anything to save the pro Indian monarchy in Nepal which India regards as it's sphere of influence.

Again, I would like to point out that the hate directed towards Sikhs in America is not because they are perceived as Indians. They are perceived as Muslims/Arabs that is the reason Sikhs are victims of hate. So no matter what Obama says about India, it will not have any hateful backlash against the Sikhs of America.

I think the original in Gurmukhi must have been beautifully written. I wish I could read it in the original.

These letters are wonderful to read. My grand father fought in France and in the middle east during WW1. He was only a teenager at the time. Just wondering, but are these letters available to read in Punjabi? These letters in the form of a Punjabi book would be well received amongst Apne.

So much of History is written in the form of letters. Too bad people don't write letters anymore. emails have taken over. But writing letters was such a beautiful thing. I have preserved so many letters in my family going back to my grand father's time.