BhagatSingh

@paapiman Gyani Kirpal Singh ji is onto something. To Dance is to Merge into Satye/Truth. That's fundamentally what a Good dance will do to you, is merge you into God. The Dervishes dance in order to accomplish exactly this. You could do the same with Bhangra also. You believe that Bhangra and Dance, in general, is prohibited in Guru Granth Sahib, and I assume Bhangra and Dance is not part of your Spiritual Practice. So that's why I say that this is a - narrower perspective to say that spiritual practices other than my own (naam simaran) cannot bring you closer to Waheguru ji. My perspective is that Bhangra and Dance, can bring your close to Waheguru ji if done with Waheguru in the mind. And Those who find Waheguru ji naturally Dance due to the energy that radiates forth from within them. As for practices that are prohibited in Guru Granth Sahib - I mean there are certain practices like that. - Guru Granth Sahib discourages killing animals. But we know Guru Hari Gobind ji and Guru Gobind Singh ji hunted animals. - Guru Granth Sahib also discourages murti pooja. But we know Bhagat Dhanna ji found success in murti pooja, as well as Bhagat Sadhna ji and Bhagat Ramanand ji. And we know Bhagat Sadhna ji was a butcher. So he is doing two things that one would say are discouraged in Guru Granth Sahib. So how do we reconcile this? I reconcile it like so - Ultimately no practice is prohibited in Guru Granth Sahib, if it does not violate the 3 Pillars. The 3 Pillars are Naam Japna, Vand Chhakna and Sachi Kirt, that is, Chanting of God's name, Sharing and Truthful actions. Those are three 3 pillars and if your practice works in Harmony with the 3 Pillars then it is approved and not prohibited. So killing animals and murti pooja while it's not recommended in Guru Granth Sahib, can work in Harmony with 3 Pillars, and so they are Ultimately not prohibited. How can killing animals and murti pooja work in harmony with the 3 Pillars? Killing Animals - Guru Hari Gobind ji and Guru Gobind Singh ji knew that in order to build an army to fight Tyrannical rulers such as Jahangir and Aurangzeb, they will need to practice their archery and group coordination in group-based hunts. Bhagat Sadhna ji's livelihood came from butchering animals and his enlightenment came after the fact. So even though he was butchering animals, it became Sachi Kirt. So in this way killing animals became Truthful and Righteous Action, even though in other circumstances, it is Adharmic, unrighteous action. Murti Pooja - Bhagat Dhanna ji's devotion to the Shaligram lead him to discover God. Bhagat Ramanand ji worshipped an idol of God regularly as part of his Spiritual Practice, and in this manner, he trained his Visual Senses to be attuned to God at all times. So in this way, they remembered the Lord through worshipping a murti. But then you might say that - "like Hunting and Murti pooja, Dancing is discouraged as well". I would say Dancing is not something that is discouraged in Guru Granth Sahib. The verses you put forth so far do not discourage it at all. What is Definitely Prohibited by Guru Granth Sahib? The 3 Pillars are Naam Japna, Vand Chhakna and Sachi Kirt, that is, Chanting of God's name, Sharing and Truthful actions. So what practices are definitely prohibited? Lying is definitely Prohibited because it goes against the Pillar of performing Truthful actions. Lying is not truthful. Someone could be Wrong about something e.g. they say Earth is flat, but if they are speaking from what they know to be the Truth then they are not lying and thus not violating the 3 Pillars. What other practices are Definitely Prohibited? The Hoarding of Wealth as well as the Hoarding of Wisdom - both when done without sharing. Making lots of money and creating lots of businesses but not giving away some of the profits, that is Prohibited. Going into Samadhi somewhere isolated and never sharing your Nirvana with the community and never having any intention to, that is Prohibited. What other practices are Definitely Prohibited? Living a life style that is Devoid of Naam Simaran. If you never sit down and focus your attention on Waheguru ji, that is prohibited. If you are lazy and do not remember the Lord every day, that is Prohibited.

Interesting perspective by Sadhguru

Indeed this is the order of God. Everything is by the order of God. It is by the order of God that a leaf moves, that a bird chirps, and that we mispronounce our own scriptures. There is the hand of God behind everything. The sooner you can make peace with it the better. I made peace with the pronunciation problem a long time ago. That said, you can still criticize it. And when you do there is the Order, again. It is the order of God that causes you to do it. The way a bird builds her nest, twig by twig, against the degenerative forces that seek to break it, both are by the order of God. Exactly in that way , we can reach a higher level of pronunciation. It is also by the order of God. Everything is by the order of God. The sooner you can make peace with it the better. Paapiman, you might now ask - How do you make peace with something and be unimpressed with it at the same time? Isn't that a contradiction? Haha indeed it does seem so but to explain that it's not, would require another lengthy response. So I can see why you said in the other topic that this topic requires a new thread. It really does. XD Will you make the thread or shall I? Saying that Guru Gobind Singh ji taught this incorrect way of pronouncing Gurbani, is making a claim without evidence. Yes. I am starting to see this pattern of pronunciation that changes from Arabic to Urdu. Also see Nadar below. It has the Dadh character in Arabic version as well. The D -> Z phenomenon may not have been as widely present during the time of Gurus. Perhaps the ਦ sound in ਨਦਰੀ, ਹਾਦਰਾ, ਹਦੂਰਿ and ਕਾਦੀਆ are all stressed Dadh sounds and not Z. But now what I find interesting is that Guru Sahib are using ਦ to represent it and not ਧ, which is modern Punjabi makes the Arabic Dadh sound. When I think about that, I wonder - What is the significance of this? Why use ਦ to represent the Arabic Dadh character when ਧ already makes that exact sound? This is something I have been thinking about recently. One explanation that I think is likely is this - in Old Punjabi ਧ was Aspirated and did not make the stressed Arabic Dadh sound like it does in Modern Punjabi. So it would make no sense to write ਨਧਰ because it would be said as - Na-dHa-ra - with that aspirated breathy Ha of dHa. If so then it would make more sense to write it as ਨਦਰ. And if ਧ is Aspirated then I wonder whether the other characters like - ਘ ਝ ਢ - are Aspirated as well? So these are the questions I am wrestling with now. The answers to which, radically changes our understanting of how to pronounce Gurbani!

Please do. And include a discussion of the following shabad.

Precisely why Siharis should be pronounced as they are critical to the arths of Gurbani.

He is right on one thing that what you wear is not going to go with you in the end, meaning any articles of clothing, like shirt, pants, boots, kurta, pajama, or even articles of faith, such as the kesh, kanhga, kara, kirpan, kachera or tilak, janeu, etc or cap, turban, hijab, rosary, necklace with cross or khanda or onkar, etc none of them will go with you in the end. Ultimately these are articles and do not carry over in death. What really matters is how well you lived your life and how you developed yourself, how well you matured. Did you Meditate? Did you act Truthfully? Did you Share yourself (in service), and your possessions? That's what ultimately matters, and not any particular articles of clothing or of faith. That said... ...the articles of clothing and the articles of faith do matter because they are Meaningful. There is a certain meaning attached to the turban and panj kakkar in Sikh tradition. That's why we wear them. When it comes to Gold, it is the same. There is meaning attached to it. Gold has always been seen as the Purest of all the metals. This is why it is precious. Gold means Pure. This is why the Guru is called "the tree of Gold" and when you touch it, you become Gold yourself. This is why when God is shown to be wearing Gold jewelry - Sundar kundal mukut bain. This is why Harimandir Sahib is covered in Gold. Some people even go as far as believing that Gold is a spiritual metal, that it can hold spiritual energy over a long period of time. I don't know if Gold can hold spiritual energy. Maybe someone with higher knowledge can eloborate on that. But what I do know for sure, is that Gold, being Gold and wearing Gold, has spiritual meanings. So it should not be dismissed for that reason.

That's exactly what it means. The Supreme Watcher is the Supreme Doer. Yes he does. That's why they do it. Believe it or not everyone here is doing exactly what God wants. You are replying exactly how God wants, and I am replying exactly as God wants, etc etc. The sooner you can make peace with this order of God the better. ਜੋ ਕਿਛੁ ਵਰਤੈ ਸਭ ਤੇਰਾ ਭਾਣਾ ॥ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਬੂਝੈ ਸੋ ਸਚਿ ਸਮਾਣਾ ॥੩॥ ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਦੀਜੈ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਦਾਨੁ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ॥੪॥੬੬॥੧੩੫॥

That's correct. This is interpretation is derived from the correct translation and interpretation. It is an extension of what keeping hair and shaving mean within a broader context of a culture or tradition. Keeping hair could mean asceticism or it could mean house-holder's life depending on culture. The meaning is that keeping hair / shaving is not relevant when it comes to losing the sense of self and merging into everything, and neither is the life of a householder / cave-dwealler / monk in a monastery. It is encapsulated concisely in Guru Nanak Dev ji's words. Je jaanase Brahmam karamam, sabh phokat nischau karamam. When a bad translation leads to an incorrect interpretation of the verse we are discussing, then it is very relevant to the discussion. Evidence for what? That everything that happens is because Waheguru ji wants it to happen?

Yes it is. It is referring to the whole group that Kabir ji hangs around with, Guru Ramanand ji and his sikhs. Waheguru ji wants some people to shave their head also, as much as we may not like that. Watch that video you posted, 1 hour time stamp one, and then read my reply and it will make more sense. Talk to me about your interpretation. 1. What have you interpreted (in what way) and 2. why? (on what basis) and we can talk about it. If you ask me why don't you like that interpretation by XYZ person? like as a hypothetical, then I don't care to discuss it. If i am speaking to you I just care about you and what is relevant to you. So tell me about you and I am willing to discuss it.

Indians kept long hair. Warriors, saints, common people, not everyone but certainly many did. In that sakhi, Guru Gobind Singh ji points this out and says - keeping hair is part of Indian tradition. This was his motivation, at least partly, for instilling it into Khalsa.

Visiting is not the same as Saving. Kabir ji is referring to the Saint that taught him and saved him. And that Saint is Guru Ramanand ji. Many Bhagats do grow their kesh but many also cut it and shave it. I promote the keeping of kesh all the time but I don't pretend that all Saints keep it. Many don't and they are just as enlightened if not more. Enlightenment doesn't come from keeping or shaving hair. Je jaanase Brahmam karmam, sabh phokat nischau karamam. Mundiyan means bald headed person. It does not mean bald-headed saint. In that shabad, Kabir ji's mom is calling Kabir ji's Guru, as a bald-headed person in a derogatory manner. So we are translating Mundiyan as shaven-headed saints because it is referring to Guru Ramanand ji. Wasn't it obvious from my clarification on ਘਰਰਿ ਮੁਡਾਇ ? Are you sure you watched the videos you posted, Paapiman bhra ji

There is no mention of keeping kesh in Guru Granth Sahib. I looked through your thread and there is none there either. It only has multiple interpretations if your ideological disposition is so inflexible that you cannot swallow its actual meaning. ਕਬੀਰ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਇਕ ਸਿਉ ਕੀਏ ਆਨ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਜਾਇ ॥ Kabir ji says when one (ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ) loves the Oneness, then the (ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਜਾਇ) feeling of two (the feeling of having a separate and independent sense of self) goes away. ਭਾਵੈ ਲਾਂਬੇ ਕੇਸ ਕਰੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਘਰਰਿ ਮੁਡਾਇ ॥੨੫॥ It does not matter (ਭਾਵੈ ਲਾਂਬੇ ਕੇਸ ਕਰੁ) whether you keep long hair or matted hair, or whether you (ਘਰਰਿ ਮੁਡਾਇ) shave your hair. ਘਰਰਿ ਮੁਡਾਇ does not mean ਘਰ ਮੁੜ ਆਇ - to return home ਘਰਰਿ means ਰਗੜ ਕੇ and ਮੁਡਾਇ means to shave. If you understand the nature of self, then you know hair has nothing to do with losing that sense of self and merging into Oneness. ਇਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਮੁੰਡੀਅਨ ਮੇਰਾ ਘਰੁ ਧੁੰਧਰਾਵਾ ॥ ਬਿਟਵਹਿ ਰਾਮ ਰਮਊਆ ਲਾਵਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ Kabir ji's mother says - these Shaven-headed Saints have ruined my house, they have caused my son to chant Ram Ram. ਕਹਤੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਸੁਨਹੁ ਮੇਰੀ ਮਾਈ ॥ ਇਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਮੁੰਡੀਅਨ ਮੇਰੀ ਜਾਤਿ ਗਵਾਈ ॥੨॥੩॥੩੩॥ Kabir ji says - listen mother, these Shaven-headed Saints have actually helped me transcend my condition.

It's the same word (spelled in different ways but pronounced the same way). Like ਘਰਿ, ਘਰੇ - in/of the house. ਗਹੇ , ਗਹਿ - mean hold. I haven't followed the discussion so I am not sure if the context changes the meaning in any way.

We don't even have to look that far, even in Guru Granth Sahib there is no mention of keeping hair everytime a Sikh is defined. Kabir ji even goes as far as saying that when you develop non-dual awareness that is a Love, a vision of God, then it does not matter whether you have hair or shave your head. We also know that the Saints whose bani is recorded in Guru Granth Sahib, some of them had shaved heads, including Kabir ji's own Guru, Ramanand ji.

I think it is important to find out when it was written because I think it might be written after the arrival of Guru Gobind Singh ji. There are also Sakhis which state that Guru Nanak Dev ji came up with the Jaikara of Sat Shri Akal. But we know, as fact, that Guru Nanak Dev ji never used Akal as a noun, which is what it is in Sat Shri Akal, but rather always as an adjective to describe a quality of God. He used it as an adjective in all of his writings and the usage as noun, came much later during 1700s. So I have my doubts regarding the dates of these Sakhis of Guru Nanak Dev ji.

There is also this sakhi of Guru Gobind Singh ji - ਸ੍ਰੀ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਜੀ ਤੁਮ ਪੰਥ ਚਲਾਯੋ ॥ ਬਾਣਾ ਰਚਯੋ ਕੇਸ਼ ਰਖਵਾਯੋ ॥ ਗੁਰੂ ਗਰੀਬ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਬਤਾਵਹੁ ॥ ਕਿਸ ਕਾਰਨ ਕਰਿ ਇਨਹੁਂ ਰਖਾਵਹੁ ॥3॥ Nau Nidh Khatri asks “Shri Prabhu ji, you run this path, you have kept your Hair unshorn. Guru Ji, helper of the poor, tell me, why have you kept long hair?" ਸੁਨਿ ਸ਼੍ਰੀ ਮੁਖ ਫੁਰਮਾਵਨਿ ਕਰਯੋ ॥ ਤੁਮ ਕੋ ਸ਼ਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਬਹੁਤ ਬਿਚਰ੍ਯੋ ॥ ਪੜ੍ਹਨ ਸ਼੍ਰਵਨ ਮਹਿਂ ਬੈਸ ਬਿਤਾਈ ॥ ਇਹ ਗਤਿ ਲਖੀ ਕਿ ਨਹਿਂ ਤੁਮ ਪਾਈ ॥4॥ Hearing this Guru Ji said, "You have studied many Shastra, many religious texts. You have spent your life listening and reciting the Shastra, yet you have not come to realize the answer” ਧਰਮ ਰਖਨਿ ਕੇਸ਼ਾਦਿਕ ਭਲੇ ॥ ਸਨਕਾਦਿਕ ਤੇ ਆਵਤਿ ਚਲੇ ॥ ਭਾਰਥ ਖੰਡ ਬਿਖੈ ਸ਼ੁਭ ਦੇਸ਼ ॥ ਕੇਸ਼ ਰਾਖਣੋ ਧਰਮ ਬਿਸ਼ੇਸ਼’ ॥5॥ "Adorning long hair is to keep this dharm, this tradition alive, which was started by Sanak, Sanatan, Sanandana, Sanatkumar, and others. In the land of Bharat dwells a great country, here keeping hair unshorn is an important part of our Dharam." ਸੁਨਿ ਕੈ ਨਉਨਿਧ ਬਹੁਰ ਬਖਾਨਾ ॥ ਆਪ ਕਹਹੁ ਸਭਿ ਸਾਚ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨਾ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਥਮ ਕੇਸ਼ ਧਾਰੀ ਸਭਿ ਕੋਈ ॥ ਅਬਿ ਤੌ ਸਮਾ ਰਹ੍ਯੋ ਨਹਿਂ ਸੋਈ’ ॥6॥ Listening to the answer, Nau Nidh replied, “what you have said is true. In the beginning, everyone used to keep their hair unshorn. However, that time is gone” ਸ਼੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰ ਭਨ੍ਯੋ ‘ਸਮਾ ਕ੍ਯਾ ਕਹੈ ॥ ਸੋ ਰਵਿ ਸੋ ਸਸਿ ਸੋ ਜਲ ਅਹੈ ॥ ਬਾਯੂ ਬੰਨੀ ਬਸੁਧਾ ੳਈ ॥ ਦੋਸ਼ ਸਮੈ ਕੋ ਕ੍ਯਾ ਕਹਿ ਕੋਈ ॥7॥ Guru Ji replied, “What does time have to do with it? The same sun remains, the same moon, water, wind, fire and earth remain. How can anyone blame time?" ਆਪਨ ਆਪ ਕੋ ਦੋਸ਼ ਲਖੀਜੈ । ਰਾਖੇ ਜਾਇਂ ਨ, ਸਾਚ ਕਹੀਜੈ ॥ ਕੇਸ਼ ਰਖਨਿ ਕੀ ਸਮਰਥ ਹੀਨੇ ॥ ਦੋਸ਼ ਸਮੇਂ ਪਰ ਕਲਪਨ ਕੀਨੇ ॥8॥ "Blame yourself and only yourself, speak the truth, you are unable to keep hair. You lack the capability to keep your hair so you blame everything on the time."

When was that text written?

I recently talked about this in a different thread on meditation.

It is important to follow the 3 pillars of Sikhism to keep your heart in the right place. The three pillars are - 1. Naam Japna - meditation 2. Vand Chhakna - being generous and kind - sharing things, knowledge, love, wisdom etc that you have/feel 3. Sachi Kirt Karni - Truthful actions - speaking Truth, acting according to the Truth If any of these pillars are missing you will screw up your nervous system, which will make you lost. Your body-car will become rusted, the engine will screw up and the gps will go out of whack. Your body-computer will constantly fill up with ads and viruses, when you go to load one program another one will open. You will meditate and wonder why isn't it bringing any results. It's not bringing results because the house has been built completely wrong. The roof is collapsing and the walls the breaking down. It body-building must be supported by all 3 pillars. Do you feel "disoriented and imbalanced" when that happens? Is that what you mean by "inside of my head starts spinning"?

ض  is the letter Dadh in Nadhar نَظَر I am starting to think that all the D sounds are not Z.

Alcohol doesn't calm your nerves. It inhibits your consciousness. So it would have the opposite effect for a sikh who is trying to raise his consciousness. That said, alcohol in small doses can be medicinal for someone who has raised their awareness beyond control. I am looking at it from a much broader perspective than what you are giving credit for. Because I am essentially saying that there are many ways of getting closer to God and dancing is one of them. It would be a narrower perspective to say that spiritual practices other than my own (naam simaran) cannot bring you closer to Waheguru ji. That is what you are saying. So its not me who needs to broaden my scope. It is you who needs to see that there are many approaches to realization of God.

ਨਿਰਤਿ has multiple meanings but ਨਿਰਤਿ ਕਰੇ only has one meaning and that is to dance. There is a difference between Nirt and Nritye. Nirt is not something you do, but something you have. Nritye (dance) is something you do. Here it is ਤੇਰਾ ਜਨੁ ਨਿਰਤਿ ਕਰੇ - Nritye kare - meaning your servant dances and ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵੈ sings your praise. If it was ਤੇਰਾ ਜਨੁ ਨਿਰਤਿ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵੈ - then it would mean - your servant sings your praises with love. So you must keep in mind Gurmukhi grammar when translating.

I respect your opinion and preference however you are using gurbani to prove something that it is not saying. Excessive discussion whether about Gurmati or otherwise is not good for you. Guru Granth Sahib ji makes this clear.

ਨਚਿ ਨਚਿ ਹਸਹਿ ਚਲਹਿ ਸੇ ਰੋਇ ॥ First they dance and laugh (celebrate) and then when it comes time to leave, they cry. They are not crying because they are dancing but because they have not attached their consciousness to Hari. ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਗਾਵੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਚੈ ਹਰਿ ਸੇਤੀ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ Gurmukh sings, gumukh dances, he attaches his consciousness to Hari. A Gurmukh dances and has Hari on his mind, and so the dancing attaches his consciousness to Hari ji. The most natural thing to do in the presence of Hari ji is to dance because the meeting with Hari is such a blissful experience. Those who feel it deeply will find themselves dancing. ਤੇਰਾ ਜਨੁ ਨਿਰਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਵੈ ॥ Your servant dances and sings your praises. Bhangra/Gidha may have minimal to none spiritual benefit especially how it is popularly done but it is much better than arguing on forums, which has negative effects on spirituality. You can connect to Hari much faster through physical movement than through using the intellect. Using the intellect, you are strengthening only that which impedes your capability to see the undivided, non-Dual Awareness. To see the non-dual awareness, you must calm your intellect and enter your body and flow with the vibration. By speaking and speaking nothing will come of it. By flowing with the vibration the Lord of the Universe is discovered.