randip singh

That really is out of order. Come on Admin, I for one want to see all the facts, and please cut the nasty bile ridden comments out from certain people here. Lets debate the issues and not the people, and find some common ground.

If you post abuse there, like you have you get booted. Sikh2 aka Inder Singh posted personal comments that is why he is crying like you too. Maybe you guys can cry together?

Looks like you ran away from this PM. Nice try, but a big fail!

I wouldn't trust those fellas at panthic.org to boil water for me, in case the burn it! Forget posting Dr Padam's translation. Sorry, it is just the way I feel.

err hmmm duh, I wonder who he is? Try again matey.

Jesus Christ, how can you trust such a trashy site like Panthic.org. The News of The World of the Sikh world. They spew so much bile and garbage there, it is difficult to separate truth from fact.

I disagree. I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it!

Good point.

I don't recall any curses. Because most of those sources such as Panthic weekly are nothing more than a barage of slanderous insults we don't allow that. We don't want trash like that on our site thanks. Keep up with the Nindya, thats all you are good for. Face Gyani ji rather than back biting, and lets see what happens. MOD NOTE: Message to both veer ji's, from now on, please take this back and forth about Sikhphilosophy over PM, as it is off topic.

Rubbish, you probably couldn't debate there, that's why you are bitter. Looking at your style of "debate" , with finger waving, accusations and plain rudeness, I am not surprised. Gyani ji and Aman ji would have ran circles round such behaviour.

Stop talking nonsense.

You do not know me that well. My methods of study are thorough. I leave nothing to chance. The translations I use are impeccable. We don't need Taksal's thank you very much. Less the better I say. They possibly are, but you need to view the originals and verify signs and handwriting. Either way it does not matter, like I said the Dasam Granth is a remarkable collection. You of all people should know the epic debate I had with those guys that Guruji was praising various Gods and Demi-Gods on ww.sikh-history.com and no reply came back when I stated that in Akaal Ustat Guruji claimed they became victims of Kaal i.e. time, in other words died. So my point is people actually use Dasam Granth to say Sikhi is part of Hinduism. "Deh Shiva" etc is a classic. The Afghanists seem to be saying that is Dasam Granth is saying Sikhi is pro-Hindu, then we want no part of Dasam Granth. Is that correct?

Lets start a topic on this. I may do on SPN...you are welcome to join us.

You have a serious reading problem: If you try and mischief make one more time I will report you. MODS TAKE NOTE

I have read an English version, written alongside with Braj (which I find a little difficult). Some parts are very hard to follow. I feel that Zafarnama is written by Guruji, and Chandi di Vaar possibly. Other section possibly by court poets. I haven't got my copy at hand, so lets start another topic for this for in depth analysis. I would go further....these avtars, devta's etc all become victims of "Kaal"...i.e. time, and therefore they are not immortal. Therefore they are not acknowledges as such, but this is an epic discussion in itself. No it wouldn't, only if the Afghanists said you should worship these deities, but they reject this don't they.

Look, I have not read what Afghana has written. Every forum I ask what has he actually written I come across statements like I have here,but not what he actually did. Someone showed me a conviction for sexual assault, and I asked why he wasn't locked up and just fined....I got a load of abuse. It seemed contrived. The point I am making is Bandha was controversial, Afghana is controversial, so why don't people talk to each other rather than all this BS excommunication business and character assassination. As for what Afghana's done....like I said I really don't know.

Unfortunately it seems to be symptomatic of some people who have come over from sikhsangat to here. They do not debate the issue but instead point fingers at the person writing.

But someone argues that Afghana described Sikhi as just a set of moral conduct and that was wrong. Either Afgana is right on this point or he is wrong. You seem to be saying you agree with Afghana that Sikhi is a set of moral principles. Actually it is a good comparison, because he too was labelled a thug, and disowned by many Sikhs at the time. He made changes such as "Fateh Darshan".....yet rather than excommunicate him people sought compromise. Where is your proof they are paid agents of Brahmins? What great sacrifices have the groups I listed made for Sikhi? Please list them? I cannot see anything here that ridicules the Guru's philosophy. Please cite examples. So AKJ must be heretics , they have tried to redefine the word, changed the 5k's and numerous other quirks. Learn to debate like a human being. This is not about me. For your information I have read Dasam Granth. Somebody in another debate said Afghana's followers should be killed. Try and follow the debate.

Guys, all I can read from you replies is, YOu said that, You said that. Why don't you analyse the points and answer those. If there are no points and they are verbal assaults, ignore them.

All due respect I don't think Cul said anything bad to you. I suggest maybe a time out and a cool head. Take each point of your critics and address in a cool manner with cited references. This will separate the Nindaks from genuine debaters.

hehe so true!

hehe so true!

Looks guys, do your own analysis of Dasam Granth. It becomes quite apparent that there are some sections that are penned by the 10th Master, but their are other sections that are not. There are metaphors in there, and there is no evidence that Guruji believed in multiple armed Goddesses/Gods either.

valli singh. I seriously suggest you spend time working on your own body to get physically fit , your own intellectual capacity by reading , and spirituality through Bani. Because if you did this, you would realise when you are pointing the finger at someone else, there are THREE pointing back at you!

A general question, and something I picked up from the debate with Guru Da Sikh. As a neutral and outsider, I observed Guru Da Sikh trying to debate in a rational manner, where everyone else just behaved like the "m o r o n i c" fools at sikhsangat and proceeded to attack the person rather than debate. What is it with the mentality of some people here? Some of the points on both sides made sense in between the diatribe. As a neutral, I have become even more intrigued to find out what Kala Afghana has written. So the Yaah booh crowd have actually done the complete opposite of what they wanted. Some of the points made are no different to what I have read or believe. 1) What is wrong with a religion that concentrates on moral conduct rather than miracles and magic? I believe their were no miracles in Sikhi, am I heretic? 2) What if Afghana disagrees with some things? Bandha Bahdhur changed the Sikh salutation to "Fateh Darshan". Should we excommunicate him? 3) Groups like AKJ, GNNSJ, DDT, Raroanwalay changes definitions and practices in Sikhi as they see fit, shouldn't they be excommunicated? I really see no difference between Afghana people from tehse other groups. 4) Is Sikhi that intolerant that we cannot embrace diversity? 5) Are we in the process of creating an elite-Brahman type group in Sikhi that lays down the law, and everyone else is declared a heretic? 6) I don't believe all of Dasam Granth was penned by the 10th Master, but I consider it a valuable Sikh manuscript. Am I heretic too? 7) When people call for Afghanist's to be killed, what do outsiders think of us?