HSD1

Dalsingh, I knew you were Sunny Hundal! Give me back my taxes lol.



I've come across decent sikh girls who came from non-religous families, many of them not having had bfs and wanting to marry sikhs. The only way I can think they are like this is because the men they are around of their own generation acted the same way.



Rather than parents I was thinking about the generation. From my own generation I know sikh guys who's bragging is jumped on by their female equivalents in order to justify their sluttiness. I was thinking that removing that oxygen is one step in stamping this fire out.



Shhh! You've let the cat out of the bag lol. Also, better women regardless of their background provide stable platforms to build families rather than some of the pscychotic women we have. It also removes these women from other communities. Our slags for their nobler and decent women. A fair trade.

Cricket should be banned.

It was probably a financially or politically motivated murder. The amount of stuff that goes on over money in some families is beyond contemplation. Though we wont find out the real reason for a while.

Robots would be pretty useful, as long as the soldiers were trained to do the same jobs as the robots just in case there are problems with using the machines in certain battlefield conditions.

This topic opens up many related questions. What about clones instead of machines? I know there arent many scientific debates on this site, and that science isnt heading towards human cloning anytime soon, but if it does happen, would they be used as cheap cannon fodder?

I wont take anything personally but I want you to think about what I say. There is no malice, I am trying to cover all the corners here.

You mention Gen. Zia but bare in mind he only moved Sikhs to Punjab as he needed Sikhs to control Gurdwaras and take them off SGPC hands. It was all political and with the blessing of the Pak govt. So how are you planning on getting the Pak govt on side?

They may want to move but can they really just upsticks and move? How does this work in Pakistan? Will they have to reregister in Punjab? Will they be willing to live in Gurdwaras till accomodation can be found locally? If you know a lot about Pakistan then tell us more.

If there is enough public feeling about restoring these places, the Badals and SGPC will come round. PSGPC are as much pets of the Pak govt as the SGPC are of the Badals. That's why they hate them, they feel they were screwed over. Ultimately neither are doing Sikhi or Sikhs any favours.

I know that most Gurdwaras are lying in ruins, my family came from West Punjab before 1947. I know that rebuilding them properly is going to be no easy task either. Look at the photos above, some are literally ruins. A slapdash job is just going to reflect the bad way we've looked after Gurdwaras in other places. Read my post on the first page to see what I mean about restoration.

I dont think it's worth comparing Hindu mobs to mujahideen or other muslims. Completely different. Security has to be taken seriously. We cant just say it'll be alright if we do this. Do you think it's worth writing to the Pak embassy or local MPs to twist the arms of the Pak govt to provide proper security to these places? Otherwise it will be like Afghanistan all over again. Dont forget that NATO will leave in a few months time and fighting will probably spread over to Pakistan.

The simplest thing to do would be to reclaim the Gurudwara (as it belongs to Sikhs anyway), kill any troublesome sulleh inside, cut off their heads and stick them on poles outside the Gurudwara, take some pig's heads and sow them onto the bodies and then hand them over to the locals. Blame it on Jamdhoots or Divine Intervention/Hukam or something.

I like the article. I do. But there are some things I feel need to be said.

Like supporting the Native Americans is one thing. But what about following that through? Idle No More has shown the ugly side of the colonisation that Sikhs dont bother to understand, that the whites took the land by force and want to keep it that way as seen by the reaction of their descendants. A bit like how Sikhs say India is so great before news breaks that a Dera or Police have beaten a whole bunch of Sikhs. The way we see things and how they are in reality are miles apart. Would Canadian Sikhs who talk about how great their country is acknowledge things like this:




And it goes beyond facing the fact that there are so many untoward types in the supposedly open and loving Canadian community.

Sikhs pride themselves on their history and stories. Saving Hindu women from Afghan invaders who we happened to be at war with and who were crossing our Punjab is a well told story. Our ancestors were a decent bunch, mostly.
But did you know that 30-80% of all Native American Women in the US and Canada will be raped before they are 30 by non-Native Americans? It's a bit rich of us all to be patting ourselves on the backs for what our ancestors did when this is going on under the noses of Sikhs over there.
Even if Sikhs did want to stop it how would they? Get some guns and a pick up truck and patrol around reservations? If there is a shootout I can see the media and public opinion falling on both sides but mainly on the side of the poor whites getting shot by the bearded browns. Where as our ancestors couldnt give a hoot who they pissed off, the thought of the wrath of the squatting hosts would be more than enough to make Sikhs not get involved.
We have Sikhs who cry their eyes out when they see Palestinians on tv, but dont bother to care for the First Nations living down the road from them who have endured foreign occupation for centuries not decades. Ironic, no?
You have Sikhs who travel to Palestine and do god knows what. Would Sikhs be willing to perform the same for Native Americans? We have lawyers dont we? We have rehabilitation programmes for drugs/drink dont we? We have media outlets there dont we? We have money dont we? Wouldnt the right thing to do be to train Native Americans to protect themselves? But which Sikhs would really go out into the real world and do that....

It's not as if our own community dont practice their own kind of personal racial hangups either. Remember that Native American women who had converted to Islam and came on SikhSangat to learn about Sikhi? Remember how badly she was treated by posters on there? If Sikhs are so smart they would understand where people like her are coming from and get why she asked things the way she did. They didnt. They tore into her like an American cavalry regiment and seem quite pleased with themselves when she was banned/stopped posting. That would never have happened to a white person especially of AngloSaxon background.

Then there are those rumours of what Yogi Bhajan/3HO did to the Native Americans they came across. Yeah we can say what we want about the whites, but when our own Punjabis begin practicing the same colonial nonsense that our ancestors would have hung them for, I can only wonder what the hell is going wrong. Like the author of the article said, nothing brings Sikhs together like a good fight, especially if we are the underdog. The question is, have centuries of white washing colonialism and the comforts of a peaceful lifestyle poisoned us to the point that all we can do is bark and not bite?

EDIT: for some reason I cant post the pictures.

Lol, most singhs do understand the importance of hygiene, even if they work in hard jobs. But other freshies are just so god damn dirty, even ones who work in the city. It's not nice dealing with them, especially as they feel the need to get so close when talking to you. First they take our punjab, now they want our personal space too. Some try to make up for it with alot of deodorant which is at least an attempt at thinking of others.



Some of those who come over have a view that all sikh girls here are loose, and have a terrible pervy nature to their behaviour. Many of them get involved in all sorts. Now I'm not saying that sikh girls behave like good girls or that sikh guys here are puritanical or that we dont have home grown criminals. But having their bad nature imposed on top of our problems just compounds things to a silly uncomfortable level. What i'm trying to say is that we want more gursikhs and less hindustanis.

Thursday: A black gang member is killed by armed police. Only two shots are fired, but police report a 'firefight'. Turns out both shots were fired by the police.

Saturday: The dead gang banger's family go to the police for answers. They feel they werent treated right. As they went home a crowd of this guy's gang attack unmanned police cars and start riotting. As this escalates the police get involved in larger numbers. In other parts of Tottenham people know the police have their hands full, so they begin looting. Police fail to stop it.

Sunday: Weather causes protests to melt away. Trouble flairs up in Enfield and other parts of London as looters and youths see what they can get away with.

Monday: Violence escalates as criminals, looters and youths all see what they can get away with. Similar protests in Liverpool, Birmingham, Bristol and possibly Yorkshire.

Tonight: Police have one last chance to secure London at night or the Goverment will take more serious steps. May lead to martial law or something similar.





My personal opinion on this is that it wont last forever. There are only so many TVs you can stick in your house or amount of JD clothing that is sensible to wear at once. Having said that the trouble may die down soon but it may become more long term as people think that they can loot their way to having the latest consumer goods. Or a bag of Tesco Value Rice.

I do feel sorry for the old man that he needs to join the bnp in order to feel some kind of justice for what happened to him. Many of the victims of partition are often chastised by our own community, with some sikhs feeling more sympathy for the muslims than the sikh victims who were just as innocent. Unfortunately, as a community, we cannot offer anything to counter muslim extremism or the BNP.

The interview he did with the ice queen just shows that even after half a century our losses and disasters will be used by others to vindicate their own debauched beliefs. I'm sure many of those who died in partition wouldnt be happy the BNP use it as a tool to galvanise their own people, in the same way Jinnah whipped up hysteria among the muslims against sikhs.



I think we should use the phrase 'a lion born in a pig sty is still a lion' to describe our existence in their shithole of an island.



If UAF gave me the membership fee I would happily apply just for a laugh. And to put white faces to the white beliefs touted by mad-eye griffy.

As a diehard Khalistani I have to say the idea of a Sikhi inspired state fills me with dread.

It is so weird how Sikhs think all their problems will evaporate overnight with independence and that all we will have to worry about is solving world hunger or making the world Sikh lol. What about food security, law and order, defence, economic planning? So many Sikhs are in cloud cuckoo land that I'm glad there are so many level headed Punjabi nationalists in the movement to keep it in the real world.

If we do get our own state it will be a predominantly Punjabi state. That means only those of Punjabi ancestry or parentage/grandparentage will be allowed in. Maybe some others, but it wont be an open door policy. Anything else will lead to annihilation. As you can see by the present immigration level in East Punjab. Does that make us racist? No. Does that make us hypocrites? No. Does that go against our Gurus' teachings? No. Will foreign people/coconuts/lefties/sulleh lovers guilt trip us into getting their way and doing what they want? You bet your ass on it. If you want a multicultural SIkh state why dont you start somewhere else in the world? Punjabis have nowhere else to go and you fundos all say you will rule the whole world one day, so why not start in Southall or Arizona instead.

Which brings me onto another thing. If East Punjab was an independant country, what would it be like? Sikhs are so lost from reality that they think a good thing is a bad thing and vice versa. If any American/African/Asian/European country had the same levels of emigration as EP they would be considered failed states. Yet Sikhs act like leaving EP is great and that it furthers their own future - by laying bricks and shagging poor foreigners. Oh dear oh dear. You want to build a country out of wannabe builders and prostitutes? Go for it.

The irony is that if the Sikh religous and political institutions created an environment where Sikh family life was the norm, something to strive for and economically sustainable then these people wouldn't have had to leave. If they had got married and had 5 kids (with support from the government and community) within one generation our number would have increased to 50 million. If this had carried on for another generation we would have had a 100 million Punjabi Sikhs by 2048. Obviously some would have to emigrate but which country in their right mind would turn away hard working SIkhs?

But no. No we couldnt do it. We guilt tripped the people back home about our supposedly great lives here. They filled their own heads with bizarre fantasies about what their kids would achieve abroad. None of this was tempered by Sikh religous leaders. They sent their kids off and now an entire generation is lost to the construction sites and brothels of the rest of the world. Round of applause! Even the Africans in EP say as much to the Sikhs there lol. Who in their right mind lets people into their country to create 'colonies'? The word is so loaded, but as usual Sikhs decide to just imagine their own reality so devoid of reason it would be funny if it wasnt so damaging.

If you cant even save your own people how can you claim to save the world?

I cant even imagine day to day things being achievable in Khalistan with the number of religous nutters we have. Could you imagine being in something like a nuclear submarine full of Sikhs? Alarms going off, flooding, radioactive leaks and some of the the sailors would be like 'It is all his Hukam, dont worry Guruji will protect me from radiation and drowning!' whilst sitting on their hands and endagering everyone around them. Might sound a bit far fetched but there are enough Sikhs like this that we cant put them in certain situations.

Going back to social problems Khalistan would face, look at the treatment of women. Singhs are indifferent to female infanticide, grooming and women trafficking...... until they have to get married. Then when they cant find a girl for themselves it becomes a massive issue over Sikh women not liking men with beards and turbans. Trust me, women couldnt care less how you look as long as your clean/fit. But if you're ugly on the inside and a selfish idiot who is obsessed with nothing but quasi-holiness and self-gratification then no normal Sikh woman will want to build a future with you. And no amount of prostituting Sikhi abroad will bring in enough goriya for all of you lol.

Add to all this how Sikhs in EP now put statues of Buddha, Jesus, Koranic writings etc next to pictures of our Gurus in their homes. You even see picture of Jesus and Guru Gobind Singh in freshies' cars in the UK. Why? Because 'all paths lead to God'. Oh dear, oh dear, who let that happen? Might sound like a lovely sound bite when trying to ingratiate yourself with your hosts and idols but it's misinterpretation is ruining the very faith you proclaim to love and spread. Go home Khalsa, you're drunk.

If we were to have a Khalistan, it would be a real country in the real world. The question is would Sikhs and Punjabis be willing to work to make it a great place, or does the fantasy of a Sikh country provide some kind of a 'hit' for the addled minds of the average Sikh?

I like the article. I do. But there are some things I feel need to be said.

Like supporting the Native Americans is one thing. But what about following that through? Idle No More has shown the ugly side of the colonisation that Sikhs dont bother to understand, that the whites took the land by force and want to keep it that way as seen by the reaction of their descendants. A bit like how Sikhs say India is so great before news breaks that a Dera or Police have beaten a whole bunch of Sikhs. The way we see things and how they are in reality are miles apart. Would Canadian Sikhs who talk about how great their country is acknowledge things like this:




And it goes beyond facing the fact that there are so many untoward types in the supposedly open and loving Canadian community.

Sikhs pride themselves on their history and stories. Saving Hindu women from Afghan invaders who we happened to be at war with and who were crossing our Punjab is a well told story. Our ancestors were a decent bunch, mostly.
But did you know that 30-80% of all Native American Women in the US and Canada will be raped before they are 30 by non-Native Americans? It's a bit rich of us all to be patting ourselves on the backs for what our ancestors did when this is going on under the noses of Sikhs over there.
Even if Sikhs did want to stop it how would they? Get some guns and a pick up truck and patrol around reservations? If there is a shootout I can see the media and public opinion falling on both sides but mainly on the side of the poor whites getting shot by the bearded browns. Where as our ancestors couldnt give a hoot who they pissed off, the thought of the wrath of the squatting hosts would be more than enough to make Sikhs not get involved.
We have Sikhs who cry their eyes out when they see Palestinians on tv, but dont bother to care for the First Nations living down the road from them who have endured foreign occupation for centuries not decades. Ironic, no?
You have Sikhs who travel to Palestine and do god knows what. Would Sikhs be willing to perform the same for Native Americans? We have lawyers dont we? We have rehabilitation programmes for drugs/drink dont we? We have media outlets there dont we? We have money dont we? Wouldnt the right thing to do be to train Native Americans to protect themselves? But which Sikhs would really go out into the real world and do that....

It's not as if our own community dont practice their own kind of personal racial hangups either. Remember that Native American women who had converted to Islam and came on SikhSangat to learn about Sikhi? Remember how badly she was treated by posters on there? If Sikhs are so smart they would understand where people like her are coming from and get why she asked things the way she did. They didnt. They tore into her like an American cavalry regiment and seem quite pleased with themselves when she was banned/stopped posting. That would never have happened to a white person especially of AngloSaxon background.

Then there are those rumours of what Yogi Bhajan/3HO did to the Native Americans they came across. Yeah we can say what we want about the whites, but when our own Punjabis begin practicing the same colonial nonsense that our ancestors would have hung them for, I can only wonder what the hell is going wrong. Like the author of the article said, nothing brings Sikhs together like a good fight, especially if we are the underdog. The question is, have centuries of white washing colonialism and the comforts of a peaceful lifestyle poisoned us to the point that all we can do is bark and not bite?

EDIT: for some reason I cant post the pictures.

Woah, calm down Dalsingh, I'm on your side. One of the reasons i started this thread was to 'unload' the word fanatic among us.

Lets face it these 'fanatic' qualities are what made us so hard to conquer, and able to form a Khalsa Raj. These feelings and attitudes are not to be ridiculed, but should be embraced and respected. Hippy fundamentalist sikhs are allowed to do what they want, so why cant the other side be allowed to do what is necessary? In the end we will all be grateful. Anyone can call me a fanatic, all I will do is laugh in their face. To me it shows they fear my faith and resolve, which makes me even more difficult to defeat. That may sound bad to some of you, but I am what I am, so are many of the youth today. You cant just ignore us or say we are wrong, nothing is achieved by not facing those who are your brothers.

If he wasnt the producer of Sikh Channel and had just been some random Sikh, a lot of Sikhs would have sympathised with the girl. Just saying.

Eh?

Anyone know of the story of the Sikh spy who tricked a British regiment before the Battle of Chillianwallah? The story goes that a British regiment was marching down the road near Chillianwallah as part of the main British force when a Sikh officer started riding alongside them. Thinking he was from one of the Eastern Sikh States the regiment stopped and saluted. The Sikh officer inspected them, asked some a few questions and then ordered them on their way. The regiment saw him canter off in front of them before bolting across a field towards the Punjabi lines. It dawned on them what was going on but their shots missed as he was out of range and had gone into the woods where the Khalsa had set up positions. I cant remember where this was from but all this talk of spies brought it back.

Healthier food that isnt so greasy would be a start for Langar.

Workshops to give less intellectually capable sikhs the chance to learn a skill without relying on the crumbling British state. I'm on a roll! Now just to find somewhere to build all these ideas................

If KFC shuts because of this I am going to be so p***ed off.

Pakistan can hit anywhere in India. It makes sense to have the supplies where they can get to the troops. I remember being told when i was a kid by some old singh in my local gurudwara that during one war between india/pak, the indian prime minister told the army to fall back to a position behind amritsar, but the sikh army commandeer refused and demanded he get the order in writing. The Sikh Regiment/Punjab Regiment ended up pushing the pakis back so thank god it didnt come to that. Not sure if the old singh was entirely accurate about the story as he didnt tell me which one of the wars its was. Without an arms industry in the punjab, we rely solely on the indian army. If they lose or sod off, the sikh nation would not be able to resist pakistani occupation. That alone is a reason there needs to be some kind of modern arms industry there, even if it is just personal weapons rather than anything like fighter jets, tanks etc.

Many times i have told people that Mi5 and other parts of the british govt arent happy about the support we give khalistan as it affects relations with india. I even told the young ones to be careful what they say or do as it could be used against them. Most of them, being cocky and arrogant, say that britain has nothing against sikhs or our liberty. The link below clearly shows that both india and britain's intelligence agencies collude on infiltrating, monitoring and controlling certain parts of our community.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/soutikbiswas/

The SGGS JI takes many things from different cultures but it does not talk about openly pandering to the whims of others. Where do you think that the Dogras got their attitude to sikhs from? Why did the muslims openly revolt against sikhs during the anglosikh wars if we living in such a multicultural utopia? Look at who signed the peace treaties at the end of the first Anglosikh war - the majority of the signings are from non-sikhs. Britons present at the signing said that not a single one of them had any sense of love for their country.

Learning languages has nothing to do with multiculturalism. It is common sense to offer young people the chance to learn a wide variety of languages and about other religions. My issue is with what politics is preached. Can you honestly say that every madrassa preached tolerance of sikh rule and loyalty to the Punjab? I dont think so. You cant live in a proper multicultural state if some of those cultures are inherently against being equal rather than superior.

Khalsa ordained multiculturalism or the western notion of superficial acceptance? There is a difference. As for the Khalsa Raj, it was Hindu Dogras and Muslim punjabis who helped the british take over and happily watched as the British did to us what the Germans were to do to Poland a hundred years later. The SGGS talks about tolerance but none of our Gurus talked about turning a blind eye to the machinations and plotting of people who wish sikhs harm.

I'm surprised that so many of you found this to be a surprise. Did you honestly think that a bunch of island monkeys from 5000 miles away would have our best interests at heart? Nope they came to steal our stuff. It really is as simple as that. They took our farm produce and fattened themselves on it whilst watching sikhs run around the world and fight their wars for them. Their 'anthropology' was just made up rubbish that they used to justify their ignorance and racism. All the people who disagreed were being murdered, tortured or imprisoned in Burma or Kali Pani etc. With evidence like this it adds ammunition to the believe that Punjabi society has stood still since 1849. SO what are we going to do? Languish in the last century or try to make up for 150 years of lost development? I personally believe that Punjab would have been a great power like Germany, Japan, Brazil etc if we hadnt been conquered by the brits and chained by the ankle to the dead body that is hindustan. We've made our bed and we are lying in it - how long we will let the nightmares last?



The same schools that taught non-sikhs not to accept the rule of the Khalsa, which led to the collapse of the Sikh state and thousands of dead sikhs. Face it, multiculturalism killed the Khalsa Raj.



So what is happening in iraq/palestine is fine then? Or Tibet? Or in the NWFP to sikhs? Or what happened in poland during WW2? I'm pretty sure if Sikhs did this to another people you would be the first to scream 'Nazi!, Nazi!'

Interesting, very very interesting. Funny how no one has actually begun the grown up discussion you refer to though. Did you post this on SikhSangat?

I have to say I have very limitted exposure to the Prof's writings. Even less to the source material he refers to in his analysis above. But there is something I would like to share, bare with me through my points.

If I asked a British Sikh were Birmingham was or asked an Indian Sikh were Ludhiana was, most of them would know and most would know how to get there. If we went to Pakistan and tried to find Lahore, the number of British/Indian Sikhs able to do that wouldnt be so high. 200 years ago it would have been the other way around. My point is that we are conditioned in various ways by where and when we are brought up. Sikh writers have no idea what the future holds and writing a future-proof history is pretty much impossible. Other culture pretend that they know their history but when you dig beneath the surface you find that what most of them believe is propaganda and not credible. Hence, what may seem 'poetic' and 'not informative' may be true for us reading it today, but at the time the people reading it would not have been looking for the same information that we are as they may already know it.

An example of this is Homer's Iliad or Virgil's Aeneid. These were considered to just be poetry and symbolism of classical flights of fancy and almost mythic by the barbarians who themselves destroyed classical Europe. It was only until the 19th century that the neo-Europeans finally figured out the clues in the text and found the original Troy as well other sites in Roman/Greek classical epics. Now one reason it took so long to find out the secrets is that the Europeans we know now came from outside Europe and had no connection to Classical Civilizations. Why would they care where Troy was if they just wanted to slaughter and rape their way through the Roman Provinces? This information was lost when those civilizations fell. When Sikhs wrote their epics, they had no idea of the Anglo-Sikh Wars or Partition or the migration of Sikhs. What they took for granted on so many levels would feel alien to many Sikhs today. So what I'm saying is dont write off old Sikh sources just because we dont get them - that's our fault not the authors.

Secondly, the Prof relates to the evacuation of Anandpur Sahib, which seems to have been one of the Sikh's main military/political/ religous centres at the time. If this is the case, we cant expect to find much historical texts that were kept there, especially if the Sikh soldier's did their jobs properly. When the enemy is at the gates you have you destroy or hide your sensitive information. I have no doubt that this is what was done and quite rightly so (from the perspective at the time).

Again, thanks Dal for bringing this up. Quite a lot there to mull over!

lol