Dhoor721

Also, to the admin...I only said that we question the validity of Dasam Granth cause that's what I've been taught my whole life...I have always been told by my friends, family, etc. that we are not sure about parts of it and whether it's actually Guru Gobind Singh Ji's bani...(except the banis we do every day, like Jaap Sahib)...I'm sorry if that offended you in any way... Also, you asked where I have been learning about Sikhi...well, I've been learning about Sikhi my whole life, from camps, friends, teachers, family, messageboards, websites, reading bani and books, etc...I don't think there's one thing I can pinpoint and say I learned Sikhi from...

Sorry I haven't responded in a while...been busy Well, that's pretty much an opinion. I myself have kept my hair since birth, and everyone in my family has as well. However, after meeting many Sikhs, I have found that a lot of the things I believe in--i.e. keeping of hair--are very hard to justify. We can pull out this quote from this book or that quote from that book...but in the end, these things are no where to be found in SGGS...which makes us wonder how crucial they are Come on, bro...you don't think we can remember who we are without tying a dastar? I'm 17, and I think I have enough common sense to have morals and know what I stand for without having to stand in front of a mirror every morning tying a dastar. As far as path is considered, Guru Ji says we should always think of God/do simran...so if we try to think of Waheguru with every breath, we should be fine. Sikhi is about changing the way we think, not the way we look (in my opinion, of course). But again, I have a problem with this because it's not documented in the most powerful thing in the world--SGGS. If SGGS is supposed to tell us how to merge with God, then it should have everything we need. I simply don't see how you make kesh so obvious. Perhaps we should question everything we hear...just like Guru Nanak Dev Ji...and accept what makes sense...I have a hard time believing that hair makes me any better of a Sikh...I personally know some Sikhs who have cut hair that are 100000000 times better than me... What's the big deal about being able to spot a fellow Sikh? I don't understand how that brings me closer to God. Also, most people when I step out into the world think I'm Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist...no one ever guesses I'm a Sikh. Also, you say that when you meet another Sikh you feel very comfortable. Not for me. When I meet a "jatha" Sikh (AKJ), they hate on me cause i'm not AKJ. Taksal Singhs hate on me cause I'm not Taksali. Even worse, the AKJ singhs fight with the Taksal Singhs, who fight with the Dodra Singhs, who fight with the SGPC singhs...and so on... Please note...I'm not here to belittle anyone or anything...I'm just trying to find out what's right and makes sense and what isn't....

Obviously, Sikhs have been keeping hair, wearing turbans, kirpans, karas, etc. for hundreds of years. But how do we know that? We've all been taught Sakhis about Gurus and the story of Vaisakhi in 1699 when Guru Gobind Singh Ji asked for 5 heads. But how do we know all of this actually happened? After all, it's obviously not written in SGGS, and who knows if Indian govt tampered with any historical documentation? How do we know we're supposed to keep hair, wear turbans, etc? Obviously, people might point to SGPC Rehat Maryada, but where does that come from? Also, I don't believe it mentions the wearing of turbans, and after reading how French Sikhs claim that turban is only cultural, I was thinking...How do we know it is MORE than cultural? Where is it written that we should even wear one? Obviously, one reason why Dasam Granth is not fully accepted is because we are not sure of its validity. How are we sure about these other ideas? In SGGS, it doesn't mention about a lot of Sikh rehat...instead we find this in Rehat Maryada...but again, how do we know it's true? I don't write this to say that we are wrong in our practices, but instead I want to understand the history behind it and how we're sure we're right. Bhul Chukk Maaf

Ok, I agree...SGGS definetely does NOT contradict itself; however, I found two shabads from sikhitothemax.com which provide translations that are contradicting: Shabad #1: This Shabad is by Guru Nanak Dev Ji in Raag Malaar on Pannaa 1289 First Mehl: maas maas kar moorakh jhagarrae giaan dhhiaan nehee jaanai || The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom. koun maas koun saag kehaavai kis mehi paap samaanae || What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin? gai(n)addaa maar hom jag keeeae dhaevathiaa kee baanae || It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering. maas shhodd bais nak pakarrehi raathee maanas khaanae || Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night. farr kar lokaa(n) no dhikhalaavehi giaan dhhiaan nehee soojhai || They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom. naanak a(n)dhhae sio kiaa keheeai kehai n kehiaa boojhai || O Nanak, what can be said to the blind people? They cannot answer, or even understand what is said. a(n)dhhaa soe j a(n)dhh kamaavai this ridhai s lochan naahee || They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts. maath pithaa kee rakath nipa(n)nae mashhee maas n khaa(n)hee || They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat. eisathree purakhai jaa(n) nis maelaa outhhai ma(n)dhh kamaahee || But when men and women meet in the night, they come together in the flesh. maasahu ni(n)mae maasahu ja(n)mae ham maasai kae bhaa(n)ddae || In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh. giaan dhhiaan kashh soojhai naahee chathur kehaavai paa(n)ddae || You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you call yourself clever, O religious scholar. baahar kaa maas ma(n)dhaa suaamee ghar kaa maas cha(n)gaeraa || O master, you believe that flesh on the outside is bad, but the flesh of those in your own home is good. jeea ja(n)th sabh maasahu hoeae jeee laeiaa vaasaeraa || All beings and creatures are flesh; the soul has taken up its home in the flesh. abhakh bhakhehi bhakh thaj shhoddehi a(n)dhh guroo jin kaeraa || They eat the uneatable; they reject and abandon what they could eat. They have a teacher who is blind. maasahu ni(n)mae maasahu ja(n)mae ham maasai kae bhaa(n)ddae || In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh. giaan dhhiaan kashh soojhai naahee chathur kehaavai paa(n)ddae || You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you call yourself clever, O religious scholar. maas puraanee maas kathaeba(n)aee chahu jug maas kamaanaa || Meat is allowed in the Puraanas, meat is allowed in the Bible and the Koran. Throughout the four ages, meat has been used. jaj kaaj veeaahi suhaavai outhhai maas samaanaa || It is featured in sacred feasts and marriage festivities; meat is used in them. eisathree purakh nipajehi maasahu paathisaah sulathaanaa(n) || Women, men, kings and emperors originate from meat. jae oue dhisehi narak jaa(n)dhae thaa(n) ounh kaa dhaan n lainaa || If you see them going to hell, then do not accept charitable gifts from them. dhae(n)adhaa narak surag laidhae dhaekhahu eaehu dhhin(g)aanaa || The giver goes to hell, while the receiver goes to heaven - look at this injustice. aap n boojhai lok bujhaaeae paa(n)ddae kharaa siaanaa || You do not understand your own self, but you preach to other people. O Pandit, you are very wise indeed. paa(n)ddae thoo jaanai hee naahee kithhahu maas oupa(n)naa || O Pandit, you do not know where meat originated. thoeiahu a(n)n kamaadh kapaahaa(n) thoeiahu thribhavan ga(n)naa || Corn, sugar cane and cotton are produced from water. The three worlds came from water. thoaa aakhai ho bahu bidhh hashhaa thoai bahuth bikaaraa || Water says, ""I am good in many ways."" But water takes many forms. eaethae ras shhodd hovai sa(n)niaasee naanak kehai vichaaraa ||2|| Forsaking these delicacies, one becomes a true Sannyaasee, a detached hermit. Nanak reflects and speaks. ||2|| #2 Shabad: This Shabad is by Bhagat Kabeer Ji in Salok Kabeer Jee on Pannaa 1377 kabeer bhaa(n)g maashhulee suraa paan jo jo praanee khaa(n)hi || Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine theerathh barath naem keeeae thae sabhai rasaathal jaa(n)hi ||233|| - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. ||233|| From what I can tell, one shabad allows meat and the other doesn't. As I said, the translations come from sikhitothemax.com. Anyone wanna explain? NOTE: I DON'T MEAN TO MAKE THIS A MEAT DEBATE--I KNOW THE MODERATORS DON'T WANT THAT. PLEASE JUST HELP ME WITH THE TRANSLATIONS. To the moderators: If you feel this topic is too inappropriate, you can lock it...just PM me with an answer

Do you know where I could learn more about this? Perhaps any website with info about it?

I was talking to one of my friends recently, and he told me that all of the Hindu, Muslim, and non-Sikh writers in SGGS only wrote for motivational purposes--not for us to follow. He told me that their writings are from their religion, and we should not follow their religion. I find this really hard to believe, but I figured it's best if I ask the cyber-sangat. Is it true that writers like Kabeer should only be read to inspire us and not for us to follow?

What exactly is Yogi Ji's reference for the number of 960 million? Personally, I've heard so many prophecies...but, in the end, I don't think any of them will come true...Sikhi will not die, but I don't think it'll be 960 million in my lifetime What about the year 2004? Sooo many predictions for this year...especially the return of Sant Bhindernwale Ji...but, like I said, I doubt it'll happen...

If we're supposed to forget about what other people do/think, then wouldn't that hurt our case for keeping hair/turban. After all, many of us believe that we keep hair/turban to distinguish ourselves, make us stand out, etc...But if it doesn't matter what other people do/think about us, then doesn't that contradict the aforementioned reasoning? Sorry...I don't know much about Sikhi and get confused pretty quickly...

Thanks for all of the excellent responses... Pheena brought up how our actions determine our destiny...does God also give signs of what he wants our actions to be? Does he give hints about what is right/wrong? I can't think of any better example, so how about this: If I can't figure out how to solve a problem, is it illogical to go and say "God, tell me what I should do" and flip a coin thinking about the 2 answers, each being either heads or tails, and whatever it turns up as is your answer...Is that reasonable or stupidity?

I know many of you live in places with a lot of Sangat (i.e. Toronto, Vancouver, Cali, UK, etc), but how do we stay motivated with no sangat around you? Where I live, there is no gurdwara and a handful of Punjabi families. Out of about 5-6 youth, I'm the only one interested in Sikhi. However, I have trouble staying motivated when there is literally no one else interested in religion. Even if I drive a few hours to go to the nearest gurdwaras, the closest ones to me have banned Sardars from being involved! I'm ridiculed outside and inside my community for my interest in Sikhi. With so many bad things affecting Sikhi, how does one stay motivated? When you think about it, Sikhs in Punjab are all leaving Sikhi, France has banned turbans, most people in the world cut/trim hair, in the US Sikhs get attacked all the time for looking like Muslims, but in other countries (i.e. UK) Sikhs are attacked by the very people they look like! There's so much bickering/fighting in gurdwaras, no one gets along, and there's so much confusion in what Sikhi even believes in (i.e. meat, kakkars, etc). How can I stay interested/motivated?

Gurfateh, Clearly a big idea of Sikhi, especially the beginning of JapJi Sahib path, is Hukam...but what exactly does this mean? Does this mean that literally everything that happens is in His Hukam? If this statement is true, then that means no decision is made by us (humans), and if that's the case, then consider the next 2 scenarios: Scenario #1: Bob is born with a very crooked and long nose. He is very displeased with it, although it is in God's will that he was given it. However, Bob decides to get plastic surgery to get a perfect nose. Now, normally I would say this is not accepting God's will...but if EVERYTHING is in His Hukam, then wouldn't this plastic surgery also be part of His Hukam? Scenario #2: Joe decides that since everything is in God's will, he will stop studying for all of his exams. After all, what difference does it make if he studies or not? God's Hukam will occur regardless. Is Joe's decision rational? Why or why not? I hope I've made my question clear. I am very confused with the idea of how powerful Hukam is. If everything is in His Will, then a murderer can go to court and say, "Hey, just accept it--it was in God's will for me to kill that person!" If my question is not clear, please let me know, and I will rephrase it. Any comments/answers would be appreciated.

Since my first question was responded to quite well by the moderators, I have decided to ask another. It is my understanding that Sikhi believes that all paths and all religions can achieve salvation. It is also my understanding that idol worship, among other "baseless rituals," are part of the Hindu faith. Now, if the Gurus have said that by practicing these rituals you cannot achieve salvation, that would mean no Hindus would achieve salvation even though they are following their religion! For example, look at this quote from pannaa 654 (courtesy of sikhitothemax.com): buq pUij pUij ihMdU mUey qurk mUey isru nweI ] buth pooj pooj hi(n)dhoo mooeae thurak mooeae sir naaee || Worshipping their idols, the Hindus die; the Muslims die bowing their heads. Eie ly jwry Eie ly gwfy qyrI giq duhU n pweI ]1] oue lae jaarae oue lae gaaddae thaeree gath dhuhoo n paaee ||1|| The Hindus cremate their dead, while the Muslims bury theirs; neither finds Your true state, Lord. ||1|| I believe this question can be expanded past Hinduism and Islam, though. By saying that we believe all religions have the ability to achieve salvation, how far does that reach? Where is the line drawn? If there is a group of Islamic terrorists who believe in their heart that by killing "non-believers" they will reach God, do we condone their actions and say that yes, they, too, can achieve God? I would appreciate any feedback/answers.

truthsingh, Thank you very much for the articles. They were very helpful.

Veer Ji, You wrote: "Isn't hair given by God, so therefore completely natural, but we add things outside our body i.e. jewellery, karas etc (not earrings which put a hole in the body) which are completely different." I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. Sure, hair might be natural, but if you look back at my post, you will see that I stated that we do plenty of "unnatural" things. In the braces example, we are changing God's original form, are we not? And I don't think you should lump jewelry and karas together. Unlike jewelry, which should not be worn by Sikhs according to the Rehat Maryada, karas are an integral part of our faith, just as kirpans, kachera, etc. are. "We wear paghs and dustaar cos they cover and protect a vast amount of hair, no? Next you might be saying "why do we wear clothes?"" But veer ji, does our hair need protection? If it does, then why not cover facial hair, armpit hair, eyebrow hair, etc.? After all, most of the world does not cover their heads, whereas almost everyone in the human race wears clothes. "If God wanted you to cut hair, why does it keep growing back?" If God wanted you to cut nails, why do they keep growing back? (and please do not tell me about how nails are different then hair, etc...I would rather you answer my initial question of why even keep hair) Also, going back again to my first example, should we not wear braces because our teeth shift back after they are removed (thus the reason for retainers, to retain the "correct" position of teeth)? I'm sorry, maybe I'm a moorakh, but I don't find any of these reasons compelling enough to demand unshorn hair.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh || I realize that the question "Why do we keep our hair?" is one of the most often-asked questions, but nonetheless, I find myself unsure of the answer. All of the reasons I have been given for doing so seem weak to me. Below are the reasons I have been given to keep my hair, along with my thoughts on them: 1) We keep our hair because we must preserve the original form God gave us. This belief is very confusing to me because we claim that we want to keep God's original form, yet we do many things that reject our form. For example, take the very simple procedure of wearing braces. By wearing them, we are rejecting God's original form, but no one claims that this is anti-Gurmat. If this is true, how come in one case we can change our original form, but in another, we cannot? 2) We keep our hair because they provide more antannae which vibrate when we recite the name of God. I find this extremely hard to believe, but if someone can provide me quotes from Gurbani which support it, I may change my mind. 3) We keep our hair because it allows us to be noticed amongst a crowd of 100. It provides us with an identity, a uniform. If our main goal is to simply be distinguishable, why do we have to keep facial hair? Clearly, we would still be noticeable with a turban and a kara, yet even trimming of our beards is condemned. Why? 4) We keep our hair because the Gurus told us to. I understand that we should respect what the Gurus have told us, but I feel that if I just keep my hair because they told me to, I am doing so blindly. Our Gurus rejected blind rituals, and if I have no reason to keep my hair, then I feel like what I'm doing is simply a ritual. Also, while discussing religion, one of my friends was very curious why we had to wear turbans. He wanted to know why we couldn't simply wear our hair down. Outside of the fact that we cover our heads out of respect for SGGS in gurdwara, why do we wear turbans in our day-to-day lives? Is it out of respect for our hair? If so, then why don't we cover our beards, eyebrows, etc.? In essence, I'm looking for someone to give me clear reasons to keep my hair and wear a turban. Although I do so right now, I feel I'm doing so blindly, with no base to legitimize my beliefs. I would appreciate any help. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh ||